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The speaker discusses interview season for postgraduate pharmacy programs. They cover topics such as accepting interview invites, virtual communication, attire, professionalism, demeanor, and do's and don'ts. They emphasize the importance of prompt responses to invites, maintaining formal communication, and being mindful of surroundings during phone interviews. They provide suggestions for appropriate attire for both men and women, including the importance of being presentable and professional. They also offer tips on virtual professionalism, such as considering one's background and making eye contact with the camera. The speaker highlights the importance of showing respect to all individuals involved in the interview process and advises candidates to be themselves and showcase their true personality. They conclude by emphasizing the need to be respectful, presentable, and engaged during interviews. Welcome to the American College of Clinical Pharmacy Postgrads podcast, the podcast made by postgrads for postgrads. My name is Kaitlyn Phillips. I'm a PGY2 ambulatory care pharmacy resident at the University of Tennessee Medical Center in Knoxville, Tennessee. I ran out of breath. At the University of Tennessee Medical Center in Knoxville, Tennessee. Today I'm joined by Tanner Melton, who is a PGY2 solid organ transplant pharmacist at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, and Dr. Tim Jeffries, who is a PGY1 pharmacy resident at the Kansas City VA. In our first episode of our student series, we reviewed how to pick out a program and some written materials to prepare for interview season. Today we're going to dive into interview season and what to do during and following the match. It's great to have you back. First of all, for interview season, I know this is a very stressful time for candidates. Can you talk about general decorum that our candidates should follow with accepting invites, the virtual communication, and then we'll go into attire and their professionalism, demeanor, do's and don'ts, things like that. So, Dr. Melton, if you'll give us an introduction into what interview season is like. Absolutely. So, first and foremost, I think a good caveat to understand what setting you'll be interviewing in is warranted. So, coming from the sense that when I did my PGY1 interviews, they were all done virtually because we were coming at the tail end of COVID at the time. And then myself, I did do an early commit process into my PGY2 program, which was an in-person interview, but we were all on the same site. And then for context of now that I'm transitioning to the workforce, my work interviews or my job interviews at that point were done virtually as well. So, there's very much a hybrid that's going on. I will say everything I'd have to say about general decorum for the most part is applicable. There might just be some small nuances of virtual versus in-person a lot to consider. So, in terms of the first part of accepting invites, the main comments I would have to say is to respond quickly to an initial invite. Not to say you have to respond in five minutes, but don't wait on an invite for multiple days. A very common residency rule of thumb for responding to emails is within 48 hours is an expectation you tend to have as a resident. And I think that's reasonable to assume in this situation as well as within the next day would be great because it helps with scheduling interviews and it helps with programs knowing what their next steps are. But 48 hours can be reasonable because we get a lot of emails, we're busy people. Whether it's you're in residency applying for jobs or a fellowship and applying for formal jobs or you're P4 looking for residency, it gives a little bit of that grace period while still trying to be on top of points. In terms of the context, to still be formal, my rule of thumb would always be to address whoever is offering the interview by doctor, insert last name, just to be formal and thank them for the offer. Express that maybe you're excited or whatever emotions or feelings you would want to interject to kind of reflect who you are as an individual and a candidate. And that's all I really have to say from a communication standpoint, just to be prompt. What I can add to is you might get phone call interview offers as well. That is how I was given actually most of my interview offers as a P4 going to P2 by one interview process was a handful were done over the phone. And I think in those just to be respectful and be mindful of your surroundings as well. For example, I had one where they had called me while I was driving. So being able to say, I'm excited to hear from you. I am driving. Can I call you back in a few minutes? And so being mindful of your own surroundings, if it's loud in the background or you can't focus on the conversation. They're very open to rescheduling and listening to you and trying to find a different time to call. And it led to a funny moment between me and the person that was interviewing me. So those are some kind of comments with the accepting invites for an interview. Moving into attire. I think the standard is the wording would be like business professional. So for for men would be kind of a standard suit type outfit. I know fashion is kind of changing at this point. So maybe you can have some color. It doesn't have to be a strict tuxedo per se, but a blazer, slacks, button up with a tie. I always like a little bit of color, so I do have fun with it, but nothing that is. So that can become distracting to what is happening in the interview. You want them to be able to focus on you and what you're saying, but also be able to express yourself through your styles. Kind of my own personal philosophy on that. And then making sure you don't look disheveled. Not to say your suit has to be tailored perfectly, but maybe don't have a jacket or a shirt that's two or three sizes too small or too big. Have something that's reasonable on a resident or a student budget at that point. And then making sure your clothes are ironed or at least in a reasonable condition. For those who identify as female, there's a little bit more ambiguity. I would say you can wear a suit as well, and that would be appropriate. Very similar principles to what I just said, minus maybe the tie. Otherwise, you can look at dresses. I haven't had much interaction here, from what I've heard, being identified as male myself. I have not had much experience on this, but skirts are generally OK, but not necessarily that short. On the longer end of a skirt, something that you would see as being considered stereotypically professional. And then nicer blouses with or without a blazer. I generally saw those I was interviewing with being in a suit as just an anecdote, as what was worn during interviews. Not much else I would add from the entire perspective. In terms of shoes, I can add heels or flats. I've seen women wear both, that as long as they looked clean and matched your outfit, we're good to go. We're good to go. In terms of accessories, for anyone, nothing that's going to be distracting, but I like to have cufflink-type buttons on my shirts, which can add a little bit of color, but it's not distracting. If you wear earrings, just nothing that's too distracting, per se, from your interview itself. So, you can still have some fun, but try and be professional in that content. Moving into something like demeanor or professionalism, this is where I want to comment on whether you're in person or virtual. So, from virtual, understanding that you're really only going to be viewed from the waist up, usually. So, in terms of professionalism, that's where I would consider things such as what's your background like, what's behind you, what is your area representing for yourself. And then for myself, I do like to talk with my hands. So, kind of making sure that that's within frame to show who I am as a person without being distracting and approaching it from that perspective. And then trying to make eye contact with the camera as much as possible as though you're talking to the person. If you have dual monitors like I do, just not looking at the other screen, trying to have your call underneath your camera would be kind of under that professionalism umbrella, I would say, as well. And then not fidgeting that much in your chair, trying to sit up straight and appear presentable. Just some of these, I would say, standard comments that you'll hear if you were to look these up on the internet. When you go in person, trying to get a vibe, but something like a handshake or other types of greetings just to kind of be welcoming to the person that is interviewing you and trying to sit up straight, your legs aren't necessarily crossed, trying to show that you're present and being mindfully engaged in the interview process are some of those decorum points. So, no slouching still, trying not to move around too much would just be some points that I would think about. And then professional language and interactions with people, showing people of all levels the due respect, doesn't matter what level they are in staff, that they are there to help you and deserve your respect as well. And in terms of general do's and don'ts, I think that kind of would summarize everything that I've discussed. The don'ts is just don't do anything that can be perceived as disrespectful or to don't appear like disheveled or that you don't care about the interview. You want to show them that they're worth your time, that you're interested in them by showing your best self. The one thing I guess I can add to in demeanor is work to add to show your true personality or true self in the interview. Don't try to be someone else because they need to get to know you for you when making these assessments or these judgments towards matching. I know I talked a lot, but there's a lot of things that go with this kind of question of decorum and hope this helps as well. And I'd be curious, Tim, if there's anything that you can think of that I didn't add to that very long list of general decorum during the interviews. You made a lot of excellent points. So for accepting invites, you may encounter the situation where you have multiple interview offers on the same date. So, you know, if you accept an interview, you don't want to go back and cancel. It's better to be transparent with the staff and with the interviewers and the interviewers cancel. It's better to be transparent with the second program and let them know that you have a conflict, that you're thankful for the opportunity and want to hear their other options and you're willing to work with them. And a lot of times if they've offered an interview to you, you're meeting their standards and they're going to be willing to work with you as well. But it's important to approach that situation as professional as possible. For attire, I think another important thing is just personal hygiene. You know, making sure that you don't appear disheveled, that you're, you know, no, like strong, if it's an in-person interview, making sure that you don't have any strong colognes or perfumes, things of that nature. As for demeanor, I think approaching with a positive attitude, being very excited and thankful for the opportunity and taking a curiosity approach. These programs are using this interview to learn more about you, but the street goes both ways and you're using it to learn more about the program, the preceptors, and learning if you are a right fit for that program, if you fit in with the culture of that program. So making personal connections, you know, you don't have to be a robot during these interviews. You can show your personal side, show your interest while keeping it professional, while keeping in mind that this program is going to be where you're going to be at for at least a year and the goal of trying to get closer to whatever role that you're trying to achieve. For do's and don'ts, for virtual interviews, it can be distracting. You'll have, you know, expected questions like, tell me about yourself or tell us about a project or a situation that you were involved in. If you're sitting in front of your computer, it can be very tempting to have your reference document in front of you, but don't read it word for word. It can be very obvious. As Tanner mentioned, make sure that you are looking into the camera, acknowledging each speaker during these virtual interviews. For in-person interviews, a lot of times, or at least in the interviews that I was involved in, they may take you out for lunch. So while that may be a, you know, outside of a formal setting, you know, they're still paying attention to how you interact with your peers, and so keep that in mind for in-person interviews. That's all I can think of right now. This is all great, and I would say standard advice. You definitely want to put your self, your best self forward. I'll reiterate from the perspective of someone who dresses with traditionally feminine clothing, a lot, if not all programs, will give you a tour, so I would not recommend heels longer than like two inches. You can show your personality in your clothes. I would wear a pink shirt, but I would pair it with a black blazer, maybe not fuchsia. Again, you don't want to be distracting, or they're going to miss things from you. All right, thank you both so much. All right, so when you get to the interview, what does that day look like? How long does it last? What kind of things go into it? So speaking from experience, most of my interviews were somewhere in the realm of four to five hours. It was usually about a half day, and those interviews consisted of multiple sessions, usually 45 minutes in length with maybe a, you know, a couple of questions, and then usually 45 minutes in length with maybe a 10 to 15 minute break in between the sessions. So you're going to be having some, it can feel like rapid fire in that you're getting fresh faces, it can feel like you're getting fresh faces that are rotating in and out, but it can be exhausting, but make sure to remain attentive and focused during those virtual interviews. For in-person interviews, mine seemed to last a little bit longer. As mentioned, they may take you out for lunch. There can be a tour involved. So yes, that's all I have. To add to that as well, I think just something to consider would be the concept that there are some programs that will do a screening interview as well. So these can be anywhere from, I believe I had some that were only 15 or 30 minute calls on the phone or a video call. Some were pre-recorded questions that you had to answer on like a pre-recorded program. So those were faster, so that might be a 30 minute to an hour type setting. And then I read to him that you can have some that last up to eight hours. For the full day, and then I will say for early commits, for those that are looking on the early commit side, it really runs the same gamut. Mine was only a couple of hours, maybe three if I remember correctly, but I have colleagues who their early commit interview was closer to six. It was almost like a full day interview, like you'd be interviewing for PGY-2 as well. So it really varies, and you can kind of expect a wide range depending on the types of programs and the number of programs you apply to. I think the nice thing is most, if not all, programs will send you an itinerary the day before so you can plan ahead and think about what your day is going to look like. When you're at the interview, who are you going to meet and what questions should you and should you not ask them, Dr. Milton? So the first part of who you're going to meet, I feel like it's pretty safe to assume that you're going to meet the resident or residents, depending on the size of the program you're applying to, the RPD and the either ARPD or RPC, depending on the titles used by the program, and then potentially some preceptors, ideally some preceptors. I personally didn't have any interviews where I didn't meet at least one or more, usually multiple preceptors. In terms of things that you should ask, it's always important to ask, I think, the residents about their experiences there, so like culture or how feedback happens, how they feel about workload, whatever. Usually with residents, also you'll have a, of course this is talking from P4 to PGY1 type setting, you'll have sessions where it's just the students and the residents. You can ask them those questions about their experiences to get to learn more. And then from the RPDs or the preceptors, there's a lot, I think, that you can ask, so how they might approach the feedback or approach maybe hard situations with residents, things about PTO. There's, I think, a lot of questions that you can ask. I would encourage you to ask some questions to get to know them. One I know for my interview for Mayo Clinic when I was doing my PGY1 interview, being able to ask two of the individuals throughout the day about coffee, because we were all really into coffee and that came up very early in the day, and asking them about different roasters or different brewing styles, anything about Minnesota and coffee. So if you find those points, being able to use those to show connection and personality and find people that you might get along with. Those are great questions to ask. It shouldn't be the bulk of your questions. I would encourage some of those to happen. In terms of should nots, I feel like the should nots, personally, would be if it's available on their website or if it's something that's been said earlier, to try and avoid those questions. So for one example is to say, if it's very clear on their list that they are going to require an ICU rotation, don't ask, do you require an ICU rotation? Because it can show a lack of preparedness. However, you can maybe, where does ICU require an ICU rotation? I couldn't find information on what types of ICU rotations you have available. Can you let me know more or inform me more about that? Kind of those approaches to where if you do have more questions, but it shows that you did preparedness into the program itself. Other should nots would just be maybe the questions that would encourage them to portray their residency in a poor light. So if it's overly emphasizing something negative about the residency as opposed to how is the residency growing or how have you acted on feedback? So acknowledge maybe there are things that need to be worked on, but not making that the focus. It's pretty generic or pretty general, but I think that's a good approach is if you feel like it's something to show you're not prepared or can paint an individual even. So if it's something that maybe gets into cultural or personal preferences, always avoid those kind of questions really in this type of setting. But those are the kind of questions I would think to avoid as opposed to the ones I mentioned that you should ask. And I know I mentioned interviews towards PGY-1. This really can go for fellowship interviews, job interviews, things that you feel really asking the questions that you feel like are pertinent to the role you're applying to that are not readily available are the questions you should be asking while still trying to get to know the people there. So as Tanner mentioned, there are going to be, you know, your RPD. There may be some leadership folks. There's going to be current residents that are going to be in these interviews. And there are questions that different questions that you can ask each of them and gain some really valuable insight about the program. So some questions I would recommend or ones that I use during whenever I was going through this process would be maybe asking the RPD what they're most proud of about their program or what Tanner kind of alluded to about what is a piece of feedback or a change that was made in the residency program based on resident feedback. You can hear and, you know, see how much, you know, you can learn you can learn about the program. Actually, cut that. As for leadership, you can ask them, you know, what are some, you know, some things for leadership, you can ask them, you know, maybe the direction that their program is moving or their institution is moving, like what they see in the next few years, what are they working towards and how do they involve residents in that process. As for preceptors, you know, these are the people that you're going to be on rotation with. So, you know, hearing about their feedback style, maybe what a topic discussion would look like while you're on rotation with them or a day on rotation, how autonomous are they, you know, what type of experience would you get if they were your preceptor. And then for the residents, you know, you can learn about, you know, ask them if they feel supported. You know, the default answer is probably going to be yes. So, you know, following that up with a specific, you know, how do you feel supported or what's a specific example of, you know, how wellness is being implemented at that institution. You can also, if you're moving from somewhere out of state, you can ask them if any of them, if any of the current residents had moved and what that process was like, what it was like finding an apartment, what they enjoy about their new city or, you know, maybe what their favorite rotation was. Those are all good and fun things that I like to ask on whenever I was interviewing. On the flip side of this, what questions can you expect will be asked to you? I can start on this one. I think pretty ubiquitous questions to be expected would be some level of clinical questioning. For the programs that I interviewed with personally and most of my peers did at the time, it was a clinical case. So, you're given a patient case that you have to work through and then start answering questions, whether these are questions that are provided up front or that happen follow-up, kind of depends on the program. So, that's, I think, common fair expectation. And then from there, you'll be expected to do some level of behavioral questions. The number and caliber will depend on the program and their preferences. Some do maybe three or four. Some can do six to ten. Really just depends on how long your interview is and how long they allot for behavioral questions. And then once you move out of this range, you start to hit an area where a lot of programs might start to diverge or you'll see differences. So, differences that I've seen is sessions where it's just random clinical questions for them to further assess where you're at. This is not necessarily meant to pick you apart and say you're going to be a bad clinician, but maybe where your baseline's at and where they can help you grow. Because if you knew everything, you wouldn't need to go through fellowship or residency or whatever training you're applying for. So, keep that in mind. And then other questions could be just getting to know you, so asking about questions on your CV, or if something came up during the day that they thought was interesting, they can ask more about that. And I guess to go into some behavioral questions, for example, things that you can expect from a behavioral side is something related to diversity and equity, something about resilience, something about teamwork, and then some things about time management. There's a handful more. Those are just the first ones that come to mind. And there are lots of lists available online. Not asked, my very brief recommendation for these behavioral questions is you'll find lists of 200-plus questions online or floating around. My recommendation would be to find the common themes of behavioral questions, like those I just mentioned, and think of experiences that apply to each one. So, that way, if somebody asks a question in a wording that you weren't expecting, you don't get thrown off by the wording. You know this is the trait they're asking for, this is the content that I have or the experience I have, now let's apply it. So, just kind of one tidbit. But otherwise, I feel like those are the bulk of the questions you'll be asked, and anything beyond that would be some very nuanced types of questions our program might have for you. Yeah, Tanner, you hit on a lot of great points there. You know, you can expect some clinical questions, and, you know, it's all right if you don't know. And one of the most respectable things sometimes that you can do is admit that you may not know, but be able to explain maybe your clinical reasoning and how you would go about finding the answer to that clinical question. As for situational questions that may come up, there is a very popular method called the STAR method, where you look at the situation, or you take the situation and the task at hand, the action that you had for that experience, and then what the results of that, how that situation turned out. So, you know, like Tanner said, you're going to find lists of hundreds of potential questions that may come up, but I think it's important to think of, you know, a handful of strong or good examples that you've had either on rotation, leadership experiences or involvement as a student, maybe things that came up during your, while you were working, and being able to use those and frame them to fit the various situational questions that may come up. And then, yeah. I think that was wonderful advice. Keep those anecdotes locked and loaded that you can apply to questions that would be phrased in various ways. All right. So, once interview season is over, what is the recommended or best strategy to rank programs and forecasts? Dr. Jeffries, what did you do? And so, it can come down to, you know, how many programs that you interviewed with, depending on how long that list is, you know, you can have some tough decisions or sometimes having fewer options can be a blessing in disguise. Whenever you're looking at programs, you have to think realistic, realistically, can you see yourself in that program? In that program, would you be happy if you landed at that program and would, you know, spend a year of your life there? And, you know, will that program help you achieve whatever your professional goals are? You know, using all the information that you learned during your interviews to make the best, well-informed decision that you can. You know, at the end of the day, it's almost a very personal, it can be like a very personal and stressful decision to make. But, you know, at the end of the day, I don't know, not a very good answer. Cut that however, maybe trim that one. I think the most important thing is not to try to game the system or mess with the algorithm or try to outsmart the algorithm. Don't rank programs based on how you think they're going to rank you. The match or the algorithm is in your favor as a resident. So, I would definitely rank based on how you truly feel about the programs. The only one-liner I like to add, I like that point, Caitlin, as well, is recognizing that this is a match. So, like something with matchmaking, it's really seeking to pair people with programs that align well. This is not a comment on your clinical ability or anything that you think is a judgment on you. This is really matching people with programs based on funky algorithms. All right. The last question we'll touch on is post-match. What is the transition from student to resident like? It's been a little bit for me since I'm now a PGY-2, but the comments that I can think of is, it's very eye-opening, to say the least. You feel like you're doing a lot as a student. You're getting very involved with patient care. But at least at my program, where the pharmacists that are on-site are doing a lot of work, my program, where the pharmacists that are on the units verify all the orders, this is kind of the difference between maybe a specialist model versus more standard models, being responsible for orders and managing patients in that regard is very different than just being a student where maybe you're only adding clinical information, answering drug information questions, and holding that space. Being kind of in this backdoor area has a lot of responsibility and a lot of, I think responsibility is the best word, of your patients, that there's more control that you have and more that you have to be aware of. So I think that's a big clinical change. The other part, too, is transitioning just to the number of projects. And I've said this to myself and to a lot of people, no matter how good you feel like your time management skills are, they're going to be challenged in residency or fellowship. And those are things that you'll grow from. But that was another transition is looking at how to re-evaluate my own skills and abilities and how to make them work in residency. Yeah, to echo that, you know, going from student to resident isn't like flipping, it's not flipping a light switch. It doesn't happen overnight. And it can be very intimidating. And at the beginning or even if you're about to finish a year of residency, you can have a lot of imposter syndrome, especially going from student where you're doing, you know, either you're doing various tasks on rotations or doing it, taking tests or doing patient cases. Whenever you get to residency and you're responsible for coming up with a treatment plan or verifying medications, maybe they are high risk medications under your name, it gets real, really fast. That said, you know, I think that one thing is that is amazing in hindsight is to look back in the growth and confidence that happens over, you know, a span of one month, two months, six months or even a year once you're near completion of that residency. And, you know, at the beginning, you are looking for a lot of reassurance of making sure that you're making the right decision, making sure that whatever your treatment plan is safe for the patient. But by the end, you find yourself needing less approval from your preceptor in being confident in your clinical decision making. And so I think that summarizes how I feel about the transition from student to resident. Thank you both so much for joining me for this second episode of our student series. If you'd like to hear from other postgraduate trainees and have a question, feel free to drop it in our ACCP communities postgrad chat. Other resources that ACCP has for upcoming postgraduate trainees include our. Hold on, I haven't been pulled up. Other services that ACCP offers to future postgraduate trainees are the on-demand CV and letter of intent review services, as well as the field guide to becoming an outstanding pharmacy residency candidate. Our committee is the our ACCP committee. Hold on. OK, all three of us are members of the ACCP resident advisory committee. Another way to get involved is to go to the emerge to the. Another way to hear from postgraduate trainees is to attend the emerge from the crowd sessions where our co-residents and us talk about these topics as well. Another great ACCP resource is the PRNs. So the practice and research networks are designed to see that practice and research networks are focused groups of clinical pharmacists with similar interests. So Tanner's in the transplant one. I'm in the ambulatory care one. They have a lot of support for residents in their upcoming field as well. You can also connect with us on social media with ACCP. Thank you.