MP3 Riley (Eth) Interview

Riley Brock, a student at ASU, discusses her aspirations to become a criminal defense lawyer. She believes in a rehabilitation-focused justice system and feels that everyone deserves a chance to change. However, she struggles with defending individuals accused of sex crimes. Riley discusses the flaws in the justice system and expresses her opposition to the death penalty. She believes that the system should focus more on rehabilitation rather than retribution. Riley acknowledges that while the justice system has its shortcomings, it also does some good. She advocates for improvements in the system to better serve society. nervous. I'm not nervous. You should not be nervous. I'm not. Okay, a little closer. A little closer? Okay. Okay, hi Riley. Hi. So, who are you? What are you doing here? Yes, so my name is Riley, Riley Brock. I'm a student at ASU. I'm currently a senior. I'm also in Barrett, just like yourself. Working towards graduation, you know. I'm studying public health, and I'm minoring in math and political science, and it's my goal to go to law school. Right now, I am working at a criminal defense law firm, a private criminal defense firm, and I think that is the area of law that I want to practice in eventually. Why do you want to be a criminal defense lawyer? I mean, I know it's been done so far, but... Yeah, I mean, I've also worked at a firm for Indian law in Arizona, and that was really eye-opening in a lot of ways. It's an area of law and an area of life that I hadn't been previously exposed to. Sorry, my mic is dead now. Now it's not working. Hey, I don't remember where I left off. Yes, we were. That's what we were talking about. Okay. Come along, what you want to do. Okay. I think the biggest reason I prefer criminal defense is just because it feels like the best way to help people. As a part of my job right now, we do a lot of mitigation for deviation requests and things like that, and so I learn a lot about the life stories of these people that are facing these charges and these sentences, and all of them have incredibly traumatic backgrounds, just life events that I would never wish for anyone to experience. So it's really made me believe in a more rehabilitation-focused justice system than anything else, because no one is born to be a criminal. No one is born wanting to do these horrible things. We're all products of our environments and what we've grown up with. Yeah, that's very true. I know. And that just goes to say how subjective it is. It's all about context as far as understanding people's motives, why they do what they do. Yeah. And that's tricky, especially in your line of work, I can imagine. Yeah, absolutely. So when it comes to what you do at work and such, with all of the people that you meet throughout the system, if you will, how have you come to define your morals in this environment? Right. I kind of get that question a lot from people when they find out that I'm interested in criminal defense. Like, oh, how do you feel defending someone that you know is guilty or someone that you know didn't? I think there's very little that I'm not okay with defending because of the flaws in our justice system and the way that it works. I feel like there's rarely a truly just outcome for someone that's done something wrong. Okay. A lot of times we see repeat offenders or someone that has a prior felony conviction and was just in a situation that they shouldn't be in, but because they have that prior felony conviction, they're not probation-eligible and their sentencing is a little bit more severe. So we see people that just cannot escape the prison system when they should be given that chance to. When, like, if they were given that chance to, they would become a better person. There are certain crimes that I do really struggle with, particularly sex crimes. I think that is the hardest to cope with morally. Well, especially as a woman. Exactly. As a woman. I just... Knowing that someone has done those things to someone, as a woman, I don't know personally that I could defend it. I talk to my boss a lot about it. His name is Chris Doran. He's a criminal defender. He has been his entire career, and he's a really, truly great person. He's very in it for the morality of it. He's in the line of criminal defense because he wants the justice system to be just. And I've talked to him at length about why he takes sex crimes and why he defends people that are being charged with sex crimes. And for him, it's not about getting them acquitted or about getting people to drop charges, but it's about finding the right sentence for their specific case. I remember the first settlement conference that I watched was for a sex crime. It was an older man that we were defending. And we didn't... My boss asked for a lower sentence for him, not because he thinks the guy shouldn't be punished, but because he's towards the end of his life, and his wife was getting older, getting sicker, and there wasn't any guarantee that his wife would survive the seven-year sentence that he was facing. And I definitely understand that, but I don't know if I personally could ever defend someone that's committed a sex crime. Yeah, that's absolutely fair. Exactly. And that goes to say how much ethics have to do with our identity. It's like what we view right and wrong, yes, it's subjective, but it's subjective because different stuff pulls at our heartstrings, depending on what made us who we are. It's especially tricky in something like the justice system, which is known for being black and quote-unquote black and white. You know what I mean? Yes, it is gray, but the way that it's written, and the whole idea is setting up a specific list of rules of what is and isn't good or bad. And then the idea with lawyers is you argue those rules depending on the context. That's where, you know, that's where you guys come in. And so when it comes to – so you talked about how it's a matter of sentencing, especially when it comes to defending people who are guilty. It's figuring out what is fair. And so for you, what actions deserve a longer sentence versus a shorter sentence? Yeah, this one I don't know if I can answer because I am just an undergrad student. I'm not a lawyer. I'm not a judge. Yeah, that's fair. I think, you know, I can say that there are certain punishments that I think no one should ever get, like the death penalty. I am a strong advocate against the death penalty in any context. And why is that? I think because I do think that humans have the innate right to life. Like, that's not like a privilege. That's a right, and I don't think that that can be taken away. So for the government to have that power to take away your life in any context, even if that's what you deserve, even if you've committed the most heinous crime, I don't think that should be a power that the government can have because it can be abused, and it often is. In more red states where the death penalty exists, it still exists in Arizona. I believe someone was just executed less than a year ago. Yeah, I'm going to leave it up to you now, actually. And in Arizona, it is lethal injection as the method of execution. This goes back to, like, and I'm not going to talk too much about it because I don't think I have that authority. I don't think I have that education, but it does go back to Jim Crow. And, you know, 13th Amendment prisons and how people of color are often wrongfully convicted and punished more extremely for crimes. And so we see more people of color, especially in the South, being executed or given capital punishment for crimes. And so it's just, it becomes disproportionate. It becomes a power that is abused by people that can abuse it. And I just, I think it's too great of a power to risk it ending up in the wrong hands. If our justice system was fully just, then maybe I would entertain the idea of capital punishment. Maybe I would say, okay, if there's like a serial killer that's constantly escaping prison, that is like a real threat to society that needs to be completely removed from everyone in order for people to be safe, then absolutely, but I just, our justice system as is, is not the most just thing. Yeah, which is frustrating, right? Because it's like, and I think that's where it gets tricky. Because when you create something so cement, it's hard to remember that it's actually a pendulum. And so everything, it's contextual, yes, but what am I trying to say here? What I'm trying to say is that because the rules are so explicit, it's easy for them to become their own antithesis, you know what I mean? To end up harming more than helping because they're not considerate of the various perspectives and the various influences that are going on. They see rules are rules. Exactly. You follow them and they're always right, but nothing's always right. That's not how the world works. Exactly. I've heard judges say again and again, in the eyes of the law, my hands are tied because of the law. Exactly, because of the law. I can't do anything to help you out. Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't often leave room for gray area when there should be that room. The irony, I know. That's just, ugh, it's really hard. But then it's, I know, and that's what's hard too about it is that, what's the alternative? Anarchy? Yeah. You can't not have a justice system. You can't have general ideas. And our justice system is not all bad. I've spoken a lot about how it's not the most just it can be, but I think it's a little bit impossible to fully get there. Yeah. I do think our system does a lot of good in a lot of ways, especially in states that are not Arizona. Hot topic right now. Yeah. So what do you think are some ways that the justice system can improve? Well, you know, I definitely believe in a more rehabilitative set up, focusing on rehabilitation rather than retribution. Yeah. And that's hard because, like, I've heard testimony from victims of crimes, and I've seen how it can impact people and how it can impact families. And in those cases, they really want to feel that retribution. They want to feel like the person is being punished. And I think that's very human. I really understand that. When something really bad happens to you, you want something worse or something equally as bad to happen to the person that did that to you. Yeah. And I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that feeling. Yeah. Like, I really, really get it. But I think the best thing for our society would be to focus on getting people to stop committing crimes. And the way that our prison system works is not that. In fact, it incentivizes – well, not incentivizes, but it, like, encourages and it almost ensures that people that have been in the prison system for so long will commit crimes again. It's extremely hard to get out of that cycle. Yeah. For example, I learned recently that prison fees accumulate while you're in jail, and you can't pay those off until you get out. So a lot of people leave prison with a lot of debt. Also, I learned from doing a lot of mitigation with people that have had a previous criminal record and have spent time in prison that people have gotten addicted to heroin in prison, and that's something that often happens. Wow. That's horrible. Whether it's, you know, smuggled in from the guards or from guests or whatever, but people have real access to hard drugs in prison. Jeez. So that means that they're getting addicted, and then once they get out, they're still addicted. Damn. So they can be caught with these serious drugs and end up doing more time for having those drugs. And as I mentioned previously, because they're a convicted felon or, you know, they've spent time in prison, they're not probation eligible, they're pushing for more sentencing. I encourage you to look at, like, a sentencing chart. They're available online, but, like, it's laid out pretty nicely, where there's, like, depending on the class of felony you've committed or you've been convicted of, and then, like, there's a mitigated sentence, a minimum sentence, the standard sentence, a maximum sentence, and then an aggravated sentence. And so there's, like, often, like, a five-year range in between the mitigated and aggravated sentence. Okay. And there are, like, two separate – there are a bunch of separate charts, but once you've committed a felony, it moves down. Or been convicted of a felony and served time for a felony, it moves down, so you're no longer probation eligible. And the sentences are longer. A lot longer. And so people just get caught in a cycle of committing crimes, and I don't think it's their fault. Oh, yeah. Something about at least our punishment. It doesn't have to be necessarily about the way that we, like, convict people or the way that we write the law, but the way that we punish people for those convictions, I think, needs to change. Interesting. That's – yeah. That's – and that's an important perspective, because – yeah, exactly. You can talk about the process as much as you want, but the outcome, you know, where the process is the justice system, the outcome, it's – Yeah. I mean, proof is in the pudding, you know? Yeah. And that's just – I think the irony of the justice system is something that will always kind of boggle my mind, because everybody knows about it, and everybody talks about it. Right. I think we're so focused on getting justice for victims right now, and I think that that is, in some terms, fair. But I think there isn't enough focus on the convict and getting justice for convicts. Exactly. I don't think there's – exactly. There's never been enough focus on the convicts, you know? Yeah. Because they did something wrong. Right, exactly. They're the bad guys. Exactly. It's awful. And it's like, what really bothers me is the fact that people convicted of a felony can't vote. Yeah. What? I know. What? That is just ridiculous. Are you kidding me? Yeah. Like, that – I mean, I just – and listen, I know I'm not supposed to be sharing my opinions or whatever, but I just think that it's so strange how a system that is so driven by freedoms and by ensuring that the everyday person has a voice is so quick to take it away. You know what I mean? Yeah. Our most basic American right, right? The American right, yeah. That our country was founded on, you know, voting and owning a gun. Yeah. You can't – Oh, my God. It was allegedly. And that's what a lot of people with priors get in trouble for is, you know, being near a gun. If they're found near a gun, even if it's not there, even if there's no proof that they used it, even if there's no proof that they could have used it feasibly, if they're found near it, that's possession. Sorry, the air's not going off. And then they go back to jail. Oh. Air's back. Yeah. God. I know. That really is terrible. But, I mean, I guess the only thing that we can do is raise awareness and raise awareness and raise awareness and do that until, you know, nothing changes for the next 20, 30 years. But at least we know what's going on. Right. So we can call bullshit. Right. Well, right now, there actually is – let me pull this up really quick so that I can get my information right. But I was planning on signing this petition. Give me just a moment. Girl, you're good. You're so good. You're good. My boss sent this into our mock trial politics chat. Right now, there's a Democrat running for Maricopa County attorney, Tamika Wooten. Wooten? Wooten? W-O-O-T-E-N. But she needs signatures to get on the ballot, but she's more focused on rehabilitation than retribution. So anyone that's listening to this podcast is in favor of what I'm saying. Go sign the petition. Think about Wooten. Use your civil right. Not everybody can. Yeah. Truly, not everyone can. Jeez, that's just crazy. All right. Well, I'm done. Is there anything else you want to talk about? I don't think so. Just, you know, take everything I say with a grain of salt. Obviously, I am only an undergraduate student, and a lot of my perspectives are very new and very fresh because I've been working at the White House for about a year at this point. But it's something that I am really passionate about, and I'm looking forward to continuing to grow that passion by going to law school and working in criminal defense, maybe. Being a boss daddy, you know? Hopefully. I see it, girl. It's coming. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. Thank you. Okay. Now we're done.