Metaphysical Magic

The speaker discusses their experience of having vivid dreams that sometimes predict future events. They also talk about their belief in magic and the existence of phenomena that cannot be explained by science. They interview Dr. Paul Davies, a professor of science, who discusses metaphysics and the relationship between science and magic. They also touch on the concept of miracles and the existence of God. Dr. Davies argues that while science can explain many natural phenomena, there may still be unanswered questions about the origins of the universe and the laws of nature. He suggests that humans have a unique ability to comprehend and understand the world around them. The speaker shares their personal interest in science from a young age, particularly in unseen phenomena. They mention reading books that questioned traditional assumptions in astronomy and theology. I don't know what's going on and neither do you, maybe we can talk about it and pretend like we actually do. Hey! Existing Existentially, a podcast of philosophies by Joey Degnan. I have crazy dreams. For the last year, every night my mind goes to the same place. Some all-in-one getaway resort in Mexico that I've never wakingly been to. But each dream has a plot, and I'm usually on the search for something, and my friends and family show up all the time. But the craziest part about what's happening when I'm asleep is what happens again when I'm awake. Although I haven't had too many precognitive dreams, I remember one specifically that I always go back to, to remind myself that it did actually happen. One night, I dreamt I was at work and the manager was talking to the staff in a powder blue polo with a hole on the top right. The next day at work, lo and behold, Mr. Manager is halfway through his motivational speech when I notice his shirt, and I'll always remember freezing where I was. I did it! I had predicted the future in my sleep. I felt ridiculously powerful for the weeks to come because I just found evidence that I can do magic, and it wasn't long for my philosophy courses to tether that ego. The probability of dreaming something, remembering it, and then seeing it the next day is small, but it's not impossible. There's so much magic happening in the world that science is starting to explain. I talk about magic a lot. I did grow up in what I consider a spiritual family, and I never let my mind fully close to the idea of the beyond, whatever that was supposed to be. For this episode, I talked with Dr. Paul Davies, a professor of science at ASU who won the Templeton Prize for Theoretical Physics in 1995. Paul works with the world of the unknown every day. So, I asked him about his foundations of metaphysics and his relationship with it. I think things always boil down to definitions, and what is metaphysics and what it really means literally beyond physics, and you'd have to be a very reductionistic scientist to say that physics is all there is. I think we would all understand that there are things about existence which lie outside the scope of the normal scientific method and the normal definition of physics, and so I'm one of those people who believes that there are other questions we can legitimately ask, not least of which is, where do the laws of physics come from? You say it's physics because it obeys the laws of physics, but those laws themselves are unexplained, and so that's part of metaphysics, what is the source of those laws. And I've thought long and hard about many of these topics, and I'm happy to say a bit more if that is what you're after. So, from a scientific standpoint, does magic exist? Is that something that you dare to touch? Because speaking of definitions, that's definitely not a definition that's rooted in research or science, but more so in witnessing the miraculous things happen. Well, just in today's class, I quoted Francis Crick as saying, life seems almost a miracle. I didn't say a miracle, but it presupposes that we all have some understanding of what you would mean by a miracle. And it's interesting that, of course, the original biblical definition of a miracle wasn't something supernatural, it was a sign, something to convey a message. And of course, on the understanding that there was an agent behind it, you know, maybe God, for example, and so from that point of view, looking for messages from alien civilizations sort of falls under that category. We might just have one really weird sort of sign that 2,000 years ago, people have said it's a miracle, God did it, and we might now say, well, it's deeply unexpected and seems to be the product of agency, but we'll attribute this to an extraterrestrial civilization. But it's really one and the same thing. Now, there's a distinction between something, a sign, or a process, or an object, that is the product of agency, and something which is simply defying the laws of nature. Because if we were to pick up a signal from ET, or just find some sort of artifact, nobody's saying that that's defying the laws of physics. But one more extreme version of a miracle is that it's something which simply cannot be explained within the laws of physics. And that, of course, naturally makes scientists uneasy, the idea that there could be something of that sort from something outside of the natural order of things. And one of my objections to a sort of folksy religious view of the nature of God, you can believe in God in all sorts of ways, but one idea that has been very popular is that God intervenes in the affairs of the world on a daily basis. And the origin of life, which you're going to learn about next week, is one that people will often pick on. They'll say, well, you don't, scientists don't know how life began, and so therefore you're stuck, and so I claim God did it. Now that sort of reduces God to, God is working miracles because God is outside of the universe, and so this is intervening in the laws of physics and chemistry. So God becomes another force at work in the world, moving molecules around in competition with the standard forces of physics and chemistry. I don't find that a very inspiring view of God, nor do many theologians. And so about 120 years ago, there was a British theologian who defined the term the God of the Gaps, and the plan there is that for most of the phenomena that take place around us in daily life, have perfectly good scientific explanations in accordance with the natural order. But if you talk about a miracle as being a suspension of that natural order, popping up from time to time in the gaps, or the explanatory gaps, left by science. So when you look at history, many natural phenomena were attributed to the action of supernatural agents, gods, spirits, whatever you want to call them. Why did it rain? Because the rain god thought it was a good idea or something, and now we have an explanation for rain in terms of clouds and dew points and those sorts of things. So nobody these days would say that the reason it rained was that. So as science advances, this God is squeezed into smaller and smaller gaps, until if you take a thoroughly scientific view, which many theologians I know do, including bishops. So we're talking not about amateur theologians, but by professional theologians that would accept that the natural order applies to everything, except maybe the ultimate origin of the universe as a whole. And so this was once described by a famous and very entertaining atheist friend of mine by saying that poor old God had been sort of squeezed out of all the gaps and now was hanging on by his fingernails just at the beginning of the big bang that made the universe start. And of course that's not a very inspiring view of God. A long time ago I came around to the point of view that if we want some deeper level of explanation for nature, we look outside of nature, not within it. We don't look for miracles. I used to say there's no miracles except the miracle of nature itself. And when you stand back and look at the astonishing way that the universe is put together, the beauty and the harmony, the mathematical subtlety, the interlocking nature of the physical laws, and all of this sort of package of marvels, to say well it just exists and we're not going to inquire further. So I think we get away from how did it begin, get away from worrying about who made the big bang go bang, or what made life, how did it first arise. We accept that it all would have an explanation within the natural order. The laws of nature were sufficient, but that you could still ask where do those laws come from, why this particular order in nature. For me, what is even more important is how is it that human beings have come to understand, at least in part, what is going on. That we are more than just observers of this miracle of nature, we are comprehenders. And that is, I think, a very deep and often overlooked aspect of our observation of the world. Many of my scientists will say, oh, there's maybe the reason that the universe is so bio-friendly is because there's an infinite number of universes existing in parallel and they've just got random laws and very, very rarely there will be one consistent with life and it's no surprise we find ourselves living in one. And my response is always, but we do more than just observe the universe, we have come to understand it. So there's some connection between the human mind and human evolution and the structure of the universe as a whole. But what made you get into this area of science? Again, I'm sure I was talking to somebody about it recently, but maybe not this class. Well, from the earliest age I was sort of intrigued about nature and what was going on around me and particularly unseen things. The idea of electric fields and magnetic fields. You know, when children play with magnets you think, ah, they're not touching each other but they know they're there. I mean, it's just fascinating. And so any sort of idea of unseen radiation or stuff out in space we can't see, you know, that I found deep intriguing as a young child. But when I was 16 I read two books simultaneously. One of these was called Frontiers of Astronomy by Fred Hoyle, the British astronomer, cosmologist, really questioning the foundations of astronomy and speculating about, you know, how things might be very different. And it's always good in science to question the hidden assumptions that underpin any given worldview. Say, why do you think that? And what happens if we relax that condition and how might things be different? It's a really good, healthy thing. At the same time I read a book called Honest to God by John Robinson, who was at that time the Bishop of Woolwich in London, suburb of London. And it too said, let's, when we look back at traditional Christian theology, put it all in the melting pot and say, you know, why do we believe this and what happens if we think that? And these two lines of thought, both dealing with the problem of existence. One, the universe and the other, you know, what might lie beyond the universe, I found deeply inspiring. And so from that time on, I was 16, from that time 17, from that time on I've always been deeply intrigued about these things. And it's been part of my career, a sort of second strand in my career. I mean, the real job is doing the theoretical physics. But the second strand is dealing with these deep philosophical and theological issues. And very early on I decided I would not be conventionally religious because that, for me, that would mean, oh, somebody else figured all this out and I'll just buy their solution. I don't think anyone's figured it out. So I chart my own path. Well, metaphysics is rooted in extensive research and years of measured observation. Its principles and effects are experienced by everyone on a daily basis. As a server, I'm lucky to get to know people with all types of backgrounds and stories. And when it comes to magic, every story has some hint of it. I wanted to open the floor to some of the friends I've met through my job. Because although none of us specialize in quantum physics, we're seeing its effects wherever we go. When did you first become interested in quantum physics? Truthfully? Yeah. Nobody can see your chest. It was in college. I was a math major. So then I started getting interested in quantum physics. My dad's a physics major. Started talking to me about that. And then there's probably a 10 to 15 year span after that. And then my divorce happened. And I looked into self-help books. And then I came across The Shortcut to a Miracle Book. Have you noticed any miracles happen in your life? And what do miracles look like to you? Miracle to me is not winning the lottery. Right? Yeah. So it's about attracting like energy. We're not taught how to think that way. Why is that? We're not taught how to tap into that energy that produces those miracles. Right? So then... Open doors. Yeah. Why do you think that is? Why are we not... Money. Oh, it's the king. Right? What does he want? Money. What does he need to get money? Peasants. Control, yeah. What do they do? Create religion. Create fear. Right? What does that do to our thinking? And what do they teach us what a miracle is? Winning the lottery. And a miracle could be anything to you that makes you happy. Remember when you were a little kid and how content you felt? Yeah. Man, that's... If you can get that in your adult life, that's a miracle. That's a miracle. And that's tapping into the quantum. So now if you want to get down to the quantum, right? The quantum is about like attracts like. Right? So that energy attracts the same energy. But your thinking is electrical. Yeah. Right? So if you're going to think negative, the quantum is going to be like... Quantum knows that no difference between bad or good. It knows the energy. Yeah. So if you think negative stuff, negative energy, quantum is going to supply that to you. If you think positive energy, quantum is going to like that. It's going to attach to that all day long. How do you remember your own power that way? Super difficult to do because we're raised this way in this society. Right? They train us this way. They teach us this way. So like with my parenting classes that I did with my parents, I only allowed them to say one negative thing about their kids because we can focus on all the negative all day long. And it's so easy to pick out. But then they had to answer back with two positives. Cool. Ah, yeah. And it's so hard to see the positive because we're taught to focus on the negative stuff. Yeah. So it's like reframing the brain to bring in the positive stuff opposed to seeing the negative. And I think we were taught from a very young age and society has taught us to see that. What we're taught is think of a thought in your brain as a path, like a dirt road path. Right? The more you think it, the more you, the dirt's there, the weeds don't grow over or whatever. Now, you read a book called Short Cut to a Miracle and you're like, dang, I need to change this, man. So that pathway, it's like a bird's nest. And you've got to pluck through all those little twigs to get done with that, but you need to get off that path and form a new path of the positive thinking. These are things that we think about every day. We just don't really have, I don't know, it's an opportunity to discuss it among people that are willing to open up their mind like that. Exactly. Your dad's a physicist? Yeah. Oh, that's super cool. That's awesome. So when we start, we talk about this. This thing that I did, right? There ain't no time in a photo. He throws that out to me and I'm like, that's bizarre, bro. But he throws one out to me all the time about, you know, you just said the universe, the real world. He gets into like dimensions. Exactly. And he thinks we got trapped in the third dimension. So like we are trapped in the third dimension and the third dimension has time. So I feel bad for calendars because their days are numbered. Animals have no concept of time. When you leave the house to go check the mail, to them they think that existence is gone because the person they love is gone. You come back 30 seconds later and they're like mind blown. You could do the same a day, half a day, four days later. They have no concept of time. They just lose, like to get into like the science of like why dogs know when you come home, it's because they lose the scent. But I mean, that's like a separate thing. That's the only way that they have learned to tell somewhat of a concept of time. The further the scent is gone, the longer you've been gone. But when you go check the mail to them, they think you're gone. They don't know the concept that you could come right back. They just want you to come back. That's even like our day and night. I mean, we've only decided what day and night is based on this ball, this rock spinning around the sun. A day, 24 hours, that could be totally different if our earth spun or spun just a little bit faster. The internet is like our metaphysical aspect of the reality of the universe and how it's connected. So the internet is like our interface and so is the universe and how human beings are supposed to be aligned with the universe. And that's why women menstruate on a similar cycle as the moon phases. Exactly. And we can psych up. I mean, there are so many concepts that we do not understand. Absolutely. We are all connected and we have lost that connection by being so cerebral and intellectual and the technology aspect. It's just the evolution of humans like the G.I.G.U. system versus the cerebral versus the technology versus our human capacity are all off the line. I'm going to go back to, let's talk about grounding. Yeah. The concept of grounding and connecting with the earth. The earth has these... I'm nailing the head there. Yeah, the earth has these wavelengths that we do not get. We don't walk barefoot anymore. What do you think is more scary? We're the only life in the whole universe or there is no life except for us. So what is life, right? It is a human construct. It is a human construct. So do you consider an angel life or do you consider a plant life? Now there are... Neil deGrasse Tyson has talked about this and there actually are different theories and different ideas of where we could be within life. We are the most intelligent as we create technology. Then there also is the concept of here's a who. We could be like on the very tiny little molecule nucleus or whatever. So like what I'm going through right now is really important to me but you could get that back. How important is it to you? And then further and further and further back. And that's like the concept of like what we think is so... Like money. Going back to Craig's initial thing. Like money is the... It keeps the world revolving. It keeps the human existence moving forward. But no other... There isn't anyone else but humans that thinks that money is important. Yeah, certainly. Not a single thing. If you apply that to anything. Going back to time. Going back to space. Like do dogs care about space? How big is your apartment? How big is your house? No, they just want people to run around and be loved. Yeah. You could apply that concept to almost anything in the world. Well, there is bigger small than there is big. The universe is... I don't know the exact number but say 10 to the... The small is 10 to the negative 38. So the quantum is very small. So dive into the quantum. And what I like about the quantum is I can't travel to the other ends of the universe. But I have the small in me that I can tap into. Why should we bother trying to understand this like metaphysical quantum universe when it's clearly something that we don't have the technology for to fully understand at this point, right? I agree with you 100%. That's why I like metaphysics. Because I don't have to do the math. Right? Yay! Seriously. Seriously. I have a math degree. Right? And I wanted to get into quantum computing. And the math is too hard. Right? Yeah. So metaphysics lets the imagination go. Yeah. Right? And Einstein likes that. Right? It's your imagination. Start thinking. Right? But your thinking taps into the quantum. Yeah. So be positive. Right? Very cool. Yeah. And that creates miracles. Well, clearly not everybody should be interested. That's not a question for everybody to understand. Because it's actually not important. And I'm going to be very real. It's not important for everybody to understand. But for those that want to be enlightened, that want to have like a different level of understanding, it is important. It's crucial. Yeah. It's imperative that they go on that journey. Now, some of them won't find an answer. But they express an interest and they change their lives to open up their minds. Very few are gifted to receive that answer of why metaphysics and why what we are doing today matters on a bigger level. And that is what very few people want to go on that journey and get there. Going into that is very scary and it's hard to grasp. And some people may find it's too much. I don't know if magic is real. There will always be potential holes in every phenomenon. And science will continue to connect miraculous occurrings to logical explanations. But it is undeniable that there are real natural occurrences that change the way we see our world. Magic or not, miracles are real because of how they make us feel. That recognition of our role as part of a whole, that astonishment of being touched by the beyond, that proof that maybe we aren't alone after all. And whether you believe in God or morality, art or logic, that magic will follow you into every conversation you have. Because I believe our purpose is to get as close to it as possible. Thanks so much for listening and thank you to everyone who interviewed for the podcast. I'm so grateful for having a platform to explore my passions with old and new friends. And it's because of your ideas that I wanted to do this project in the first place. So thank you. Over and out.