Dr Jen

The speaker is recording a podcast with her friend, Dr. Jennifer Dean-Hill, who is a therapist and counselor. They discuss the struggles that high-achieving women face with perfectionism and imposter syndrome. They also talk about the role of dopamine in habit-forming and how it can be addressed. The conversation touches on the importance of nurturing oneself and collaborating with others, as well as the need for women to celebrate their strengths. The speaker and Dr. Jennifer emphasize the value of emotional intelligence and relational intelligence in leadership. They also discuss the importance of receiving nurturing and support from both men and women. Overall, the conversation highlights the challenges and opportunities that high-achieving women encounter in their personal and professional lives. All right, so we're recording, and I can edit a lot of this stuff, so I'm going to make sure that everything is good. So why don't you speak, Jen? Hello? Testing, testing. So I'm going to turn you up, because I can't hear you. Can we move closer to the mic? You shouldn't have to move too close, but I might need to turn you up. Oh, yeah, getting closer. Can you hear me? Yeah. Okay. Three, six. All right. Try that again. Testing, testing. Yep. That's good. Okay. Jen is amazing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. All right. So welcome to SoulFueled Success. I am so glad to be here today with my friend, Dr. Jennifer Dean-Hill. She is an amazing therapist, counselor, author, speaker, all the things. She is definitely my go-to referral when I know that someone, especially women, need some extra encouragement and care. Thank you. Welcome to the show, Jennifer. Thank you so much. Good to be here. Yeah. So I was thinking about you a couple weeks ago, because when I was thinking about SoulFueled, one of the things that pops up a lot is that high-achieving women have great plans and great desires, but we can get stuck in doing things that we want to do more than the things that we don't want to do sometimes. And an example of that would be me getting my podcasts uploaded. I love making them, but then getting them polished and uploaded sometimes can be a stumbling block for me, and I can find a million other things to do rather than upload this podcast and get it out in the world. And so I kind of go back to that Bible verse of, you know, why do we do the things we don't want to do, but we don't do the things that we want to do, because I love my podcast. I love all the things about it, and I love sharing women, businesswomen, especially local businesswomen here in the Tri-Cities, with the world. And so one of the things that I had been looking at and learning about was dopamine. So today, hopefully we can talk a little bit about why high-achieving women struggle with perfectionism and imposter syndrome, and also how maybe dopamine plays a role in that in our habit-forming and how we can maybe address that, have some tips for our SoulFueled success in this area where we struggle so much with. I love it. I love it. I love this topic, and I love the work that you're doing for women in the area, so thank you so much for that. Thank you. Yeah. And I had the privilege of listening to your podcast, too, about the SoulFuel. I do think this is an important topic for us to talk about as two professional women is not only how do we motivate ourselves, but how do we motivate the women that we work with? We're not motivated, right? We can't give what we don't have. So yeah, the dopamine is huge. It's the filibin hormone, and it's the transmitter that we need or the brain chemicals that we need to feel good about our day and who we are and what we want to do. Okay. So it ignites our creativity. It ignites our imagination. It ignites our drive. So there's technically no such thing as a dopamine addiction. Okay. But there is an addiction to behavior that produces the dopamine. Oh, I love that clarification. And that works good for us because not just because we can't get addicted to the dopamine, but the behavior. This can work for us, too. For instance, I love to start my day with meditation, prayer, reading, grounding, stretching, you know, whatever. I don't do all of that. Wouldn't it be nice, though? Yes, it would be nice for you all, but I know I'm an overachiever, too, as well. I try to finish as much as I can. But, yeah, the one thing that I have really become addicted to is deep breathing. So taking 30 to 60 deep breaths every morning. I can already see you breathing in, Shannon. Oh, no. Good health advice. As soon as I say deep breathing, everybody goes, Reminded me I haven't had a good deep breath in a while. Yes. But, you know, that would be something that would be beautiful to get addicted to. Right. It's the ability to breathe deeply, which also sets off the neurotransmitters and dopamine creating that. And now we get the blood flow and the oxygen going throughout your body. It also produces the hormone oxytocin, which is the opposite of adrenaline. Oh, interesting. So, yeah, fun fact is men do better with adrenaline than women. So women actually need more oxytocin. We'll get this sometimes in the hospital if we want to do a delivery. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's called the tender befriend hormone. So, of course, adrenaline is the fight or flight hormone. Right, right. So we need that, too, because we need to be fierce mothers and fierce leaders and things. But if we operate too much in that space, we actually start to, in my opinion, de-feminize as women leaders. Oh, yeah. So those are those really tough driven women who Like little men. Yeah, yeah. Which is a lot of us, especially in our generation, were nurtured to be. Right. Is dress, sound, talk like a, you know, a masculine leader. Right. Because that was what was desirable in the workplace. Exactly. When we were growing up between the 80s, 90s. Absolutely. Yeah. And it was the one that was advanced, too, that type of leader. But going through my doctoral studies in leadership, I was so excited to find that actually the cutting edge leader is one that is empathetic, nurturing, collaborative, other centered, love centered. And all I kept thinking is, that's a woman. Right. Right. We've been here all along. It's here all along. So I'm really excited. I do my leading lady series. But it was such an exciting epiphany to share with the women that says, listen, we are the new cutting edge leaders. And it's the ones with high EQ, which is emotional intelligence, relational intelligence, and the ability to collaborate and be integrative thinkers. These are the leaders that are ruling our world. So it's not to say at all that women are better than men. That's never an argument. No, because I've raised a son who is hugely high in EQ. And I love the way that he is a husband to his wife. Absolutely. Yeah. So and I'm married to an amazing partner. Yes, you are. Thank you. So that sometimes when we go to promote women, that has been a downfall. Again, something that we've seen in our generation where women can't be celebrated without it sounding like we're excusing or dismissing men. And that's not it at all. Right. It's just about us capitalizing on our organic divine strengths that we have. And do you find I know in my over the many years I've been working with women, what I find is that we don't celebrate ourselves. We don't celebrate ourselves because we don't know ourselves. And in my opinion, too, we've gotten too caught up in competing. So we're not collaborating. Right. So the synergy that comes from a collaborative brain and a collaborative body and a collaborative energy produces this oxytocin, right, which puts us in our best part of our brain. Right. So now we're tending and befriending the relationships and we're creating masterpieces. Oh, I love that. Because that's actually that's I didn't realize it was oxytocin in all my I loved or doubt on brain stuff, but I love small groups of women when we get together and mastermind together and just really share. And you feel just this whole new level of energy and participation and caring and empathy from these women. And sometimes even the most shy women will suddenly find themselves wanting to share and encourage other people in the group. And then being and then that. But but what's really great is when they let themselves be encouraged by the group. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, again, that oxytocin is the big term on this. The big word is called reciprocity. Right. To give and take. Right. So it can't just be a one way street. And often do we not find that as women leaders? We are nurturing our businesses. We're nurturing the vision. We're nurturing our marriages. We're nurturing our children. Right. So the big challenge, I continue to say to women leaders so that they can stay motivated and visionary of what they want to create is who is nurturing you? And I keep saying to women, join the human race. Right. We are not above being nurtured. No. Yeah. And just because we're great at it, and we are, we will start to really cripple ourselves if we don't find other not only women, but men too, to nurture us. Right. It needs to be both genders nurturing us. And we need to teach our husbands and our sons to, hey, this is what would nurture me. But sometimes that, I run into quite a bit with women, there's a lot of shame with that. They feel like they have to be the only source of motivation in their life. Okay. So tell me a little bit more about that. Meaning they don't know or haven't been taught, which is, again, probably our generation again too, we've been taught a lot to over-function for our families, marriages, societies, churches, right, where we are asked to keep performing and giving and providing, but little attention, nurturing, advancement, pay is being given to us to be able to nurture our motivation. Right. Does that make sense? Yes, because I see that in my clients. And I see it in myself too, as I was growing and maturing. I'm so thankful that I was led down the mental health, behavioral health, personal development route, because I've learned so much about people and so much about myself that sometimes I take for granted that everybody doesn't know what I know. Yes, it's true. It's like, wait a second, what do you mean? People get all excited about a concept and they're, you know, I find some of my friends who are in their early thirties or mid thirties and they get super excited about a concept. And I'm like, oh yeah, that's like, I've just known that for so long. I forgot that it's just, you know, it's about that age that you start discovering. Exactly, exactly, yeah, it's about believing in yourself too. For sure. So in your counseling then, how do women show up when you first meet them? What is it that they're struggling with often? Because I know earlier we were talking and you were talking about anxiety and some of the things that high achieving women deal with. So tell us a little bit more about that, because I know that I have several listeners who will totally relate to this. Well, I've dubbed it a non-clinical term and I call it the gifted girl syndrome, and that's probably more of my specialty, is not working necessarily with the chronically mentally ill as much as it's the high achievers and leaders that are struggling to find success in their personal life or professional life or both. So I use my leadership education as well as my clinical social work licensed counselor education to be able to see how are they operating professionally and personally and are they able to integrate what they're learning to be able to motivate themselves and to be their best selves. Yeah, yeah, it's very similar to the women that I work with when we're looking at helping them refine their strategies and how they operate for sure. Absolutely, but there's unique struggles that go with high achieving women, right, as you and I were chatting about. So it's typically a woman that is more of a what I would call gifted or integrative thinker. They are typically not only hearing the messages that are being said, but they're feeling what we call the meta messages that are not being said. And this can be very distractive to a high achieving, high intelligent woman, highly creative woman. So the diagnosis we put on this is ADHD, OCD. Right, oh my gosh. I just keep seeing this, oh, adult onset ADD. And I'm like, I'm sorry, no, I don't agree with that. Some of us are gifted with, I mean, I'm a strength finder champion, right, and a personality style person. So I'm looking at these and God just created some of us to think faster than other people. It doesn't mean I'm hypomanic. I'm sorry. You're exactly right. Those are what we call fast processors and those are a lot of high achieving people. So their problems are very different. They're not about, it's not about trying to motivate them to think, think differently. It's about helping them to be able to make the choices that they can do that's best for them because they have a variety of choices they could do. So, and a lot of times gifted girls or high achieving women are typically preyed on by society. And I use that word in quotes. Oh, interesting. Yeah, because who doesn't want a very intelligent, driven, accomplished woman who can provide and give. And if you can provide and give for an organization or a family, that's a beautiful gift. It is. Now, what if that woman goes, hey, I'd like a little piece of that for me. I'd like to do a podcast. I'd like to run a business. You know, I'd like to create a new relationship or whatever, right? Where's the support that she gets with that? Sometimes she gets shamed or told, be a good girl, get back in line, right? Yep, yep, exactly. Stop being so selfish. That's probably the worst thing that women could be called. Yes, and we can feel selfish because, oh my gosh, I just want to take a little bit of time for this business that I'm doing and I've got to serve all these other people. So I'm burning the candle till two o'clock in the morning trying to do all these things and still have that piece of me. Or, and this is where a lot of my clients and myself fall, where we love our kids. And I don't want to say that mom is second because mom has always been first for me, but how I mother is different than how the stay-at-home mom or the crafty mom or, you know, the entrepreneurial mom is different. We are blending and harmonizing different things, usually to the expense of ourselves because we want to have all things possible. But in the end, we can't really have all things, right? Not at the same time, anyway. Beautifully said. I really believe in that. And I love your words, harmonizing and blending, you know? And as we know, sometimes when we're trying to harmonize and blend, we're also clashing and we're completely going off tune. And it's chaos. It's total chaos, right? And it's hurting everybody's ears, including our own. We're not producing a beautiful melody. No. But that's the ideal. Like, how do we blend and integrate? But we know, as working women and mothers, right, it's so many plates that are spinning. But it's this other piece that we haven't known, and it's about harnessing that, which is how do we use our heightened awareness, heightened ability, heightened people skills to be able to produce and channel the life we want? So those are the women I really work with. Yeah. How do you be your best self? Instead of walking into a room, an organization, or a marriage and say, oh, I like who you are, now be all of that for me. Right, right. So how do we help women be their best selves for themselves so that they can be better workers, partners, mothers, that type of thing? Right, because people are so much, I don't know, so fulfilled when we are really in our soul fuel, when we are doing the things that we're wired to do in the way that we're wired to do it. And then if we can let go of some of that control so that we can invite others to come in who are really good at what they do, they just do it differently than we do. That's a lot of times helping the high achievers I work with to be able to empower other people to do things that are different than theirs, but actually in the long run is actually a better way of doing things, right? So that they can really focus in on what they love. But what I notice is that these high achieving women who have created a business out of what they love, whether they're a nurse who's created an in-home care agency, or they're a realtor who has created this amazing real estate organization, that they have grown this business and it's their baby, and then the people that are on their team are also part of their family. Like they want to treat them like family and love on them, but at the same time, they don't know, they get anxious about them. And so then you get that office kind of gossip or that, yes. Yes, we've all been there. And you're the boss, so you're the one everybody's gritching about. Right. And so to circle back around, we're not creating dopamine and we're definitely not creating oxytocin. So we've stepped out of our lane as being phenomenal leaders, right? Because we're about creating culture. And we can create the mean girl culture if we want, the catty culture, which has been assigned a lot to women and I keep suggesting and encouraging women to shake that off. Or we can create a culture that brings life, productivity, collaboration, and continue to empower each other so everybody can do their best work to change our world. Absolutely. And what I've been seeing in the last couple of years is that when we do that, we're really loving our neighbor. And so the work that we do, the role that we play, whether it's our team or whether it's our customers or whoever it is, that coming out and just feeling confident and being fulfilled in what we do, being able to empower others and just really stand in who we are in a positive way, a way that contributes and collaborates, is really the best way that we can show up and be who God created us to be and do the things he created us to do and make that difference in our community. And that's what I see is that these high-achieving women are serving in their communities, they're serving in their churches, they're serving in their kids' schools, they're running their business, they often put themselves last. Or they're trying to do all the healthy things, work out, join the gym, do Pilates, do yoga, do whatever it is, deep breathe. Yes, I'm like, I'm not just saying all that. I need to deep breathe. But we don't allow ourselves to do it or we don't stick with it long enough to create a habit. So how can we change our habits when we identify that we are in this place and we want to be our best self and we're learning to release some things? What do you recommend when it comes time to building a habit of helping yourself? Great question. I think rituals are very important for good psycho and social health. You just quoted the golden rule, right? Right. Do what others do, have them do what you do, or love your neighbor as yourself. And I think that is so important to remember that second part is women, is as yourself, right? Yourself is brought into that equation. So we can't give what we don't have. So the first thing I would suggest for women leaders that are stuck is get back to the basics. And I like to think Malibu's hierarchy of needs, which is what's your basic needs, right? Are you feeding yourself well? Are you exercising? Are you drinking enough water? Are you having any physical problems? You know, are you sleeping well? Things like that. When your basic needs aren't met, it's very hard to move up that pyramid and get to where we all want to live and be, which is self-actualizing. And quite frankly, as we look at that, is to do it on a daily basis. What are we doing to nurture ourselves? Then I like to think of, I used to call it life three principles, but now I call it life four. Okay. This is the four primary relationships that we all need to connect with so we can have health. Okay? Okay. So we need to move out of silos and especially after COVID, right? Learning how to do community and connecting and face-to-face and touch, things like that, which obviously doesn't. What we need is these four primary relationships. And one is with ourselves. One is with others. One is with our divine, our higher power. And then the other one is, and this is what my newer one that I've put into my philosophy is our earth. Ah, yeah. I'm going to be talking with, do you know Dr. Shannon Murray? No. She's an audiologist in our community who is now certified in grounding and has created a whole grounding. Oh, I love it. Yeah. So I'll connect the two of you for sure. We do because we have, it's more of a new fascination interest to me. Definitely the deep breathing, water, how relaxing that is to be in and around it. Fire, earth. I could go on. But a lot of times we've seen this in our consumer mentality, society is we're striving and we're doing things at the expense of others and the expense of our earth. Right? So how do we nurture all four of those relationships that says each one of those are of value, each one of those matter, and each one of those need to be nurtured and they need to have that reciprocity. You know, are we filling up in some quiet time through meditation, feeding our spirits with a higher power, a divine source, God, right? Are we around people that are nurturing our bodies, our minds, our spirits, our hearts, right? Are they creating a lot of adrenaline? You know, just because they are does not mean you leave them. Then as people hear some of this, they're like, oh, I'm out of here gentlemen. No, hold on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. Learn to make and draw boundaries that we're getting so used. So I like the concept is loving limits. What am I willing to live with? And what am I not with people? So that you can protect your heart, right? One of my favorite proverbs, but we'll now start your heart. First, the wellspring of life. So if our life is not getting on track, or it's not expanding, or it's not growing, we typically need to first look at ourselves and make sure, are we taking care of our basic needs? And then are we taking care of our four primary relationships? Right, right. So important. And, and often, and remembering that we are one of our relationships, our relationship with ourselves is so important. Yeah. So what is your favorite way? You mentioned a bunch of things at the beginning. What is your favorite way to fuel your soul in addition to grounding, which we were just talking about and breathing? But what else do you do just for fun? Oh, my gosh. Well, I have this delightful son-in-law, and he sends me constantly podcast on different things. And one of the things he sent me recently was two. One was on grounding. And I've just been exploring that more. And I am so encouraged. Here's my thing. So I'm a lazy nurturer. So it's like the easier is the better. Right? Right? So grounding, take my shoes off and stay on the earth for 15 minutes. I can do that. Right? Breathe. Breathing is the other thing I love to do is so if I can walk barefoot. I haven't figured out how to do that. But it's frozen outside. So maybe, maybe our friend, doctor can help us on that. Yeah, that's something I like to do. One of my favorite, in fact, I did this morning, is to find a nice place and implement some of these things that are good for my body. So my favorite place when it's beautiful out is I have this little swinging hammock that I hang up from my little palm tree. Oh, nice. And I get to put my feet in the bare grass. Right? And then I do my deep breathing. I like to do 30 to 60 breaths starting off my day. And my son-in-law sent me this fabulous podcast that talked about the benefits of breathing. And again, I was like, I can put my feet in the grass and I can breathe. And then another thing I like to do is gratitude. And to talk about the gratitude, ideally, it's great if you can write it. But sometimes I'm too lazy. So I'm like, if I do my 10 gratitude lists, maybe that's better. But neurologically, it actually has been proven it's more effective if you can write it. Right, that hand-brain connection is so important, which is why when I write something down, I can remember it better. Yeah, and it starts to open up and build some new neural pathways in the brain. So you want to keep that plasticity in your brain. So I actually do do a ton of reading and writing. So that's how I start for my soul fire fuel in the morning. I actually have a whole curriculum I wrote. It's called Home Fire for the Soul. Oh, very cool. See, I know you and I are always... Yeah, we're on the same wavelength here. So I think about that. What am I doing first to nurture, receive love? And I love to do prayer, meditation, and inspirational reading or talk. This morning, I found this fabulous podcast by a Shannon Spencer. So I use that for my motivation to get centered and think about my time with you and what I wanted to say, right? So I usually do an inspirational time like that, something that's good for my body, yoga, stretching, and maybe some light exercise, walk, ab work, something like that. But I don't do a ton. And I love my hot tea. I love the black tea, macaroon black casso tea. Oh, I'm going to have to look for that. It's a dessert tea. Yeah, I've been addicted to that. So I get that in the morning. So that's that ritual, right? So now I have this morning ritual to let my soul wake up, my spirit connect to the divinity, my spirit to connect with ground before I go connect with others. I love that you are being really intentional about supporting yourself and fueling yourself up so that as you go and pour out of your cup to these amazing people that you minister to through your counseling services, that you are able to overflow into them, right? And doing what you love. So that's fueling you too, because you're doing something that you love. Yeah, absolutely. And that's a key word. That's a really great word, overflow. But if we, positive psychology speaks to staying in our flow, which is the principle that I subscribe to as positive psychology, is you can tell them to stop, right? Right, absolutely. Yeah, strength, positive psychology. So if you can stay in your flow, it's effortless. Yep, exactly. You do it with ease. And then when something does require effort, you have what it takes to go and make that effort. Absolutely. Yeah. Beautiful. Yes, we're fueling up like that. But then what are we producing? And that would be my big question to anybody to stay motivated to create new habits. Is it within your flow? Is it within your skill set? We talked about your strengths. Does it fit your personality or your strengths? If it's conflicting with that, step back. You know, reevaluate. Is there something else that can help me flow? Is there a hurdle that's blocking me from flowing? Right? We talked about perfectionism. You and I are both talking about it. Yes. We're so hard on ourselves, right? High achieving women are. Yep. Right? Exactly. And it doesn't take much to shame us and course correct us and get us back in line. So we really have to develop a lot of grace for ourselves. And what I like, and Brene Brown talks about this shame resilience. Yes, I love Brene. Me too. Yeah. Met her a couple times. Have you really? Oh, that's exciting. Yeah. She didn't remember meeting me the first time, but that's okay. I can't believe she didn't remember you, Dr. Jones. Oh my gosh. I don't think anybody could forget you. Literally, I was forgotten. Okay. So before we wrap this up, because I have you here and this has been on my mind and many coaches and therapists' minds for a while. And we talk about the fact that I'm a pioneer in the coaching industry, especially here in our area, but even just in our industry period. And my background is in mental health and behavioral health. I used to do group therapy and those kinds of things. And when I became a coach, it was very much drilled into me that coaching and therapy are two different things. And so now a lot of people are coming out as trauma-informed coaches and other things. And I'm not saying that they're all terrible, but I also have met some people that have no business offering those kinds of services. There's a reason why people go get master's and PhDs in counseling and that kind of thing. And we do it with coaching too. But so if you would, in your words, how do you differentiate between therapy or counseling and coaching? Yeah, that's a great question. I've heard a lot of definitions, but they're now getting retracted and new definitions are getting replaced. First of all, I just want to say for coaches and therapists, I think it's important we encourage each other. Absolutely. We don't compete or dismiss or minimize. Right? We all have a job to do. So I do think that it's important that we encourage each other. So I do think sometimes therapists can be dismissive of the coaching field, right? Because obviously I get my master's, I have my doctorate, I have to do three years to get my license. So it's very significant, the amount of education that a therapist has to have compared to a coach, which is normal. Actually, none. Actually, anybody can call themselves a coach, which is the warning that I have for my listeners is please, please, please. Please make sure that the people that you're hiring, whether it's a counselor or a coach, are really good at what they do. Well said. That's beautiful. Because not all counselors are really good counselors either. I couldn't agree more. Right? So I think that's probably a really fair assessment to your homework. You know, if you want somebody to guide you in your life, is it somebody that first you have a real connection with and a rapport with? Do you trust them? And the thing is, do you admire them? Have they made some achievements that you're looking to make? Right? Are they living a life that you admire and you like too? Now, I don't think that's a hard and fast, because I also think we can learn very well from people saying, don't do what I did. Right. Right. Absolutely. Which I've done too. I wish I would have done this better. So do this better, right? Right. So when it comes to therapists, obviously education is a very big differentiation point. Sometimes it's been described that therapists are backward movement and coaches are forward movement. I strongly disagree with that definition. That's, again, getting retracted again, because I work in positive psychology. It's all about forward movement, strength, perspective, being able to operate with a collaborative mentality, moving forward. Okay? So that doesn't fit. I'd say the biggest thing that defines us and our careers and our differences is our ethics. What therapists have to go by is very different than coaches. We have to be careful about doing relationships. We're actually following the medical model. We do no harm. So we have all of those accountabilities in place. We also have to do, for Washington State, I have to do 36 continuing education credits every two years. And specifically on some category areas such as suicide and ethics, right? So that's very specific, the education, the continuing education, right? Then the other thing I would say is we are required, according to our profession, is to use therapies and discipline. We don't have to use one, but that's the whole premise of psychotherapy, which is we're using therapies. And it can be anything from reality therapy to cognitive behavioral therapy. But that's where we are required to use those to be able to motivate and change. And only that would license you. Right, right. Now, with that said, that doesn't mean nobody can use those therapies. Exactly, because I use several of them, depending on the situation. Right. And so I do think there's getting a real blur on this. Part of this, I think, is very exciting, because the more people we have to help make change in this world, the better this planet will be for all of us. Right. And then the other part of it is, like you said, concerning, because people are put in positions of power to speak over people's lives that may be disordered, personality disordered, or they may be struggling with mental illness themselves. And so their intentions are not good. Right. With counselors, we are held accountable to what are our intentions, our license are removed if we behave immorally or inappropriately. Right. So there's a ton of accountability. Other than that, there's a ton of freedom as far as which modality I use. Right. And the clientele that I attract. Right. So I'd say the ethics, boundaries, and the education are the huge determining factors between coaching and therapy. Yeah. And I see that. So not everybody likes the... I was just reading recently somebody bashing the International Coaching Federation, because who made them the god of coaching or whatever? And I look at it and go, well, somebody needed to be the god of coaching in the beginning. And so trained as a co-creative therapist or coach, and then using my therapy background, it's been really interesting to see the word coach gets bandied about. And you can be a sports coach. You can be this coach. You can be that coach. But I think that's the thing, though, is really being aware of who it is that you are working with and what their ethics are, what their philosophies are. And also, like you said, do you align with them? But for those people who maybe are suffering a little bit from their own mental health, and they want to go help other people because they themselves were helped, that's what I see a lot, both in the counseling and in the coaching, is that, oh, an addiction therapist. That's how most people become addiction therapists, is I was addicted. And so then I want to give back. And it's a beautiful thing. But at the same time, maybe those people should still be continuing to get support in their own traumas while they're, yeah, because trauma, it's the trauma thing that I've gotten to become such a buzzword. And that's the part that I'm like, oh, you know, people that don't know how to actually help somebody in trauma can. Yeah. Yeah, that's such a good word. The trauma is, first of all, I don't think there's two categories, the traumatized and untraumatized. I think we're all traumatized. We all have trauma. Oh, my gosh. If we weren't before COVID, now we all are. Yeah, right. So I think what we're understanding more is who is more trauma resilient, and we're understanding how to treat trauma. And I am concerned on that because that does, the people that are operating that without maybe some real, being in a regulated field like psychology or social work, counseling, because we can actually do more damage. But the other part of me says, good, because we actually are wired, hardwired to healing community. So if that community is healthy, whether they're licensed therapists or coaches or a beautiful grandmother, we're going to heal, right? So I think the bigger question is, how do we become more informed about trauma, who is teaching the trauma, who is, I think, licensed or educated to treat the trauma, to be kind of the gurus, if you will, to help educate other people on this. And at this point, therapists are trained typically to be able to handle a lot of that, but that doesn't mean that coaches can't speak to that, too. Right. So if coaches are handling it, because it is such a tender topic, I would say to the listeners is really do your homework on that. If you have PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, or even TTS, which is post-traumatic stress, which is two very different things, make sure that you're aware of who it is that you're talking to about this, because you're in a very vulnerable place. You literally have holes in your brain. So your brain can heal, and it's hardwired to heal. And actually, it heals through a talk therapy. Oh, yeah, right. Exactly. The power of the word, the spoken word, is just so amazing. Exactly. So technically, the licensed therapists are the only ones allowed to do therapy. But you and I both, we're all doing therapy as we talk, and we minister, pastors, doctors, everybody. Mothers are doing therapy, right? But if you have a mental illness or a traumatic issue in your life, I would suggest for people to see a licensed therapist that is skilled in that, or an organization. My husband and I, and another friend of mine is a therapist and a doctor in leadership as well, we do trauma-informed care programs. Okay. So we've designed that. We actually write during COVID, designed all that, put it on. It's designed to go online to be able to meet some of that need. Right. So look for people that have the qualifications, not just the program. Right. Right? But if they have both, kind of got the golden ticket. Yeah, exactly. For sure. I love that. Thank you. Because I mean, there's just a lot of people. It's a big conversation in my industry anyway. And I do see several programs that are offering coaching to therapists to add that to their toolkit. And so I really like that. And I like the fact that I know, I guess I would encourage all coaches to know your own personal limits so that when you get somebody who truly needs some greater healing than you're trained and experienced to give, that you have a therapist, a good counselor or therapist on your list of referrals. I love to be able to send people to you and you've sent people to me. And it just, to me, that's the best of both worlds when we can just make sure that people are getting the proper care that they need by the proper professional. And whether that means they go back and forth or they go to somebody else, whatever. The whole thing is just, I know most coaches and with good hearts really just want to see people be healed and be able to move forward and do the things that they do. I laugh because when I worked in mental health, I worked with schizophrenics and homeless and all these different people. And my heart just broke for them. And I loved them. But when I, when I left that industry and then went into coaching, I was so excited to work with what I call the walking wounded, who are functioning in life and, and we're moving forward and can take action. And they're there. They weren't being threatened by their counselor if they didn't show up in my office for their appointment to learn how to have fun of all things. I know. Yeah, exactly. So thank you so much, Dr. Jen, for your time today. So excited to have you on the podcast. Oh, you bet. Thank you. It's been a pleasure being with you. And if it is, do you have any resources or any suggestions for the listening audience that maybe they want to know more about you? Sure. You can check out a few websites. I'm trying to keep paring those down, but Drs. Jake and Jen is a website that shows all our resources and our work. And then also I have my personal website, which is jenniferdeanhills.com. And then for my nonprofit website for women and empowering women and helping them start businesses and live their best lives, that is newshoesisters.com. So those are a few ways to access it. Those are awesome. Thanks so much again for coming today. You betcha. Thanks so much, Jen. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.