Q7-19880716-Larry_Rosenberg-UNK-questions_and_answers-1554 Leandra Tejedor (1)

Talk: 19880716-Larry_Rosenberg-UNK-questions_and_answers-1554 Leandra Tejedor Start_time: 01:06:20 Display_question: Can you explain where mindfulness fits into effort and samadhi? Keyword_search: Corrado, samadhi, effort, mindfulness, right speech, breath, attention, right intention, Krishnamurti, mind, balanced, magical, concentration, wisdom, energy, alert, awareness, harming, heart, effortless, fog, sleepiness, greed, ambitious, kilesas, wake up, free ourselves, anxiety, pride, results, investigation, self-image, retreat, present moment, strenuous, delicate Question_content: Questioner: Something that’s…I've been working with beating myself up, this last week, and I’ve done fairly well, of not beating myself up. Larry: Of not beating yourself up? Questioner: Not, of stopping beating myself up. One thing that Corrado talked about earlier was, that effort was under our control, but samadhi really isn't. It’s really a fruit. You can't force samadhi. You can only have the effort, and the samadhi comes. Where does mindfulness fit in? Because I find that it's somewhat under your control, but really only the effort towards the mindfulness, is under control. Sometimes you try, but you're gone. Your mindfulness isn't there. And that was something I was beating myself up about, and I started looking at, and I was wondering where does that fit? Larry: Mindfulness is in the middle of everything. We can't carry out anything, really, that we talk about. Even if mindfulness is, let's say, right speech. If there's no mindfulness, you're not aware that you're about to lie. So, mindfulness plays a central part, in the development of samadhi. Mainly it supervises what's going on. For example, it sees if you're not on the breath. Now… and we're practicing that too. Many of these qualities are cultivated and developed. And then there comes a time where they become much more spontaneous. Perhaps some of you have tasted this. Let's say, you're practicing mindfulness, and you can do that. You can put your attention on the breath, or feel the feet as you walk time, and time again. But that ability to do that gets stronger if you do it. And sometimes it feels as if there's a current of mindfulness following you around, and that it's like a gift. You're just quite awake to what's happening, and then you lose it. Break_line: Now the effort is needed to…okay, let's work the whole thing out. Right intention, is the thought to even do the thing. Somebody has told us that there's something valuable about being mindful, or being aware. Those of you who've read Krishnamurti, that's the core of his teaching. So suddenly there's a message. It's extremely helpful to pay attention. Now we're paying somewhat attention, somewhat. So now, there's a new intention in the mind, and it remembers to do it. So that there's the intention, right thought or right intention. Then it takes effort, to turn towards the breath, balanced effort. Now even there, mindfulness is necessary. If you force your attention to the breath, you're going to set up…you’re going to defeat the process. Mindfulness has got this, it's a magical kind of thing, even though it's so simple in a way, in that it has this capacity, to set things right, to balance things. It sees what's off. So the mindfulness accompanies the whole process, and it sees. You come to the breath. The concentration is the ability to stick to the object, and mindfulness is there as well. Sometimes it's very strong or weak. And in the samadhi practice, we're mainly…we’re very concerned about being able to stick to the object. But mindfulness is there as well. And mindfulness is what can help you not beat up on yourself, because it sees what that's about, when it's accompanied by wisdom. Questioner: I guess, okay, but you put effort towards mindfulness, and sometimes mindfulness doesn't come, even though you put the effort there. Have you ever found that? Larry: Sure. Questioner: You're going very mindful and your still putting the effort… Larry: Effort is in a sense neutral, that is effort into what? Let's say you think of energy, as pure energy. And in a way it's a very profound choice that we all face, we all have a certain amount of energy, and also time on this planet. How do you want to use it? How do you want to use your energy? Now, what this is saying, at least use some of it to direct your attention to what is happening, right now. So that the effort is needed for mindfulness, yes. But then the mindfulness itself sees what's happening. Break_line: Now sometimes the mindfulness, when it gets strong, it's not as if you have to. It feels as if it's effortless. There's just a way… now sometimes a different term is even used, like awareness. Different teachers use different terms. Mindfulness is something you practice. This is one way to look at it. And sometimes the mind explodes into, or ripens, or opens into a kind of awareness, that's totally effortless, and you can't practice that. Suddenly you find yourself there. There's an alert quality, and you're seeing… it's all happening. You're just automatically mindful of everything, and there's no effort in that. It doesn't feel as if there's any effort, but I'm interested in what not in it being theoretical, but in how you're harming your own heart, and using you're using the practice, and harming yourself. It's not designed to do that. Questioner: I guess that’s what I’m getting at. That sometimes there's an effort to be mindful. And not trying too hard, but you're trying to be mindful, and you just get periods where you just can't…you just...it doesn’t…somehow the mindfulness doesn't seem to come. Larry: Oh, wait a minute. What do you mean by, is there some kind of result you want, out of the mindfulness? A buzz? Questioner: Just to see what’s happening. Sometimes it's just like a fog. Larry: Yes. Okay, so you turn towards the object, but it's a fog. Questioner: Right. And at that point… Larry: The mindfulness is probably weak at that moment, but you've tried to do it, okay. It gets stronger through use. Questioner: In other words, what is so weak about seeing the fog? Larry: Seeing the what? Questioner: The fog. Larry: Well, if you're seeing it. See, in other words, then that would be a medicine for that. That is, let's take sleepiness. When we're sleepy, we’re not… the problem is we're not very mindful. But the beauty of the whole thing is, then if you can remember to form the intention, and muster up some effort, you can then look at the sleepiness. And sometimes you have this very alert quality that's seeing… like that. Or you wake up out of the sleepiness, by turning mindfulness, on sleepiness. Questioner: But sometimes you can’t…I guess I see the same point…sometimes you very clearly see the fog. But then that you could see through the fog. You know you could have the clear mindfulness. Larry: You see what you can see. It’s…what comes across is you're beating up. It's the same as all of us when we do that. You have some gaining idea. It's greed, isn't it? I mean…there’s some…your practice is ambitious. Now we need tremendous energy in the practice. Don't take that as… I'm not saying you're a bad person, you're a greedy person. No, this is important. The kilesas get misused. When we talk about greed, in this instance, let's say what I'm aiming at is not saying that Craig is a greedy person, but that when the kilesa of greed is in operation, Craig suffers, and can't accomplish this list that you want to get, and suffers. Can you hear the difference? Questioner: Okay, I guess I'm just looking more for some support of the idea that if you see the fog, that's enough. Larry: Enough for what? Questioner: Huh? Larry: Enough for what? Questioner: For that moment. Larry: Okay Questioner: You know what I’m saying. Larry: Well, you know if there's clarity seeing the fog. Is that what you're saying? Questioner: Yeah Larry: Okay, then what's the problem? Questioner: I guess there is not. Larry: Well, okay, the problem. Let's say take effort, let's come back to effort, because that seems that's where the problem is coming out of, and then it proliferates. Effort is needed. There's nothing wrong with effort. You can't accomplish anything worthwhile in life, without effort. And we're undertaking an attempt to wake up, and to free ourselves. It takes enormous effort and energy. The problem isn't the effort, the problem is that all too often the effort is accompanied by, anxiety or pride. That it’s not… the effort has got some imbalance in it. It's mixed in with the anxiety, because the effort is very concerned about what it wants to get from, I'm applying this effort, because I want to get something out of it. And so we're using the effort, but we're also very concerned about results. And there's anxiety there, because we don't always get what we want, as the song goes, right? Okay, or there's pride. Sometimes people... things are humming along, and we feel oh, I've just got incredible samadhi, and all the rest of this. And then that pollutes it, eventually, in a somewhat different way. Break_line: Now mindfulness comes in, and sees that. Mindfulness can see that there's something extra in the effort. It's not just taking us from wherever we were, back to the breath, but there's an extra push in it, because we're trying to get somewhere. And at that point, sometimes the investigation inevitably turns on the self. It's some inadequacy that we think we have, and that we think will be corrected, if we can get the perfect samadhi. And it has to do with self-images, images of what we think we used to be, and what we think we are now, and what we might be if we do this retreat. And so, it's torture, it's a lot easier, it's lighter, and that's why the retreats are always accompanied by that. It's this amazing blend. It's strenuous and very delicate. I don't have one word. If anyone comes up with one, help me out. The practice is strenuous, but it's also delicate. We are trying to get somewhere, we're trying to get free. But the only way you get there is, by being fully in the present moment. That's what takes you there, not trying to get there. Does that make any sense? Questioner: Oh yeah End_time: 01:17:04