Q3-20150304-Larry_Rosenberg-CIMC-no_title-26565

Talk: 2015-03 04 No Title.json Start_time: 01:09:56 Display_question: If I really want to wake up is it necessary to commit to long term practice in a monastery and to have a meditation teacher? Keyword_search: experienced practioners, engaging, Zen, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese, Krishnamurti, India, Vedanta, awake, monastery, retreats, dentist, Dental hygienist, Ethiopia, CIMC, Harvard Square, relationship, self-deception, monk, lay people, IMS, Forest refuge, Barre Center, Asia, life as teacher, wife, path with heart, koan, Buddha, American society, hierarchy, sangha, daily life, Jewish, lamp unto yourself Question_content: Questioner: Sort of a twofold question, I guess. Larry Sure. Questioner: You mentioned how some people, sort of even experienced practitioners, have like a not engaging with certain things, that seem too difficult, or overwhelming. Larry: Yes Questioner: And I'm wondering, I guess, to, like, really wake up, and stay awake. Is it necessary to some degree, to commit yourself to practice, like long term practice, like in a monastery, or at a center? And if so, I know you practiced the quantum Zen before. How do you choose or know what? Larry: There's no path for everyone, and there's no stipulated journey for everyone. Having practiced in ten years in Zen, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese. Before that, I was with Krishnamurti, Indian. I was in Vedanta for five years in India. You have to find your own way. For example, sitting loads of long retreats, going to a monastery, is no guarantee, of anything. It depends on what do you do with your time. Break_line: Here's what helped me, just recently. When I go to see a dentist, I don't know, he's not here tonight. He said he might be, glad he didn't. For a number of years because I've asked dental hygienists, when they're cleaning my teeth, which do you feel is better, an electric toothbrush, or just manual? And everyone gives me different ones. Finally, this one woman from Ethiopia, who's a dental hygienist, and I asked her that, and she paused, and she said, I don't think it has to do with whether it's an electric toothbrush, or whether you do it manually. It has to do with the brusher. Do you see what I'm getting at? Break_line: So that the forms are there to help. But for example, it is possible. I've seen it. That's part of why we started CIMC. Where it is possible for people to do 5, 6, 7, 3-month retreats, go to Asia, sit in seclusions, go up into the mountains, sit in you know, I've done it and I've seen it in myself. And then walk into Harvard Square, and you're a jerk. Or all that has to happen is, you get involved in a relationship, and it's as if you never sat in your life. So, we humans are masters of self-deception. And now if you're going to live a life as a monk, live it out, and you just live in the forest, and you spend a lot of your life, most of your life there, and as a monk, and so you're related to in a certain way, at least in the ancient way, then that's one thing. Break_line: But we're lay people. We have to learn how to relate to work, school, family, no family, unemployed, employed. This is our world. And so, it's good to come to CIMC. It's good to go to these other places: IMS, Forest Refuge, Barre Center, and so forth, from time to time, to pull back, and to give your nervous system a rest, and to just look at yourself. So those are wonderful places. But then inevitably you come back into the world, and the world is constantly teaching. Life is the ultimate master. It is teaching you. And what I saw in myself was, I did loads of three-month retreats, here, and in Asia, and I saw that, somehow it wasn't carrying over so much, in a relationship I was at. It seemed like, well, I'm the same jerk that I was, before I found out about meditation. So then I realized I had to start paying….the principles that we learn are not limited to CIMC, or IMS, or any other places. Do you see what I'm getting at? Break_line: Some people, their temperament is such, so that they benefit, from sitting a lot. They have contemplative nature. I have. I love to sit, always did. So I have to be careful. CIMC. And I'm married now. That's a good balance. My wife is biggest pain in the ass of my life. I mean, I love her, but God, she doesn't agree with everything I say. And I wind up doing the dishes far too often. But any rate…in other words, in a sense, one teacher a long time ago, I asked a question similar says, find a path with heart. For example, I was in Zen, Korean Zen, for five years, a great teacher, great community, but it was koan Zen, and I did okay with it. And I was being groomed to teach, and all that, but it wasn't exactly, for me. Then I moved into, and then what I'm doing now, for many years, I found this is for me, but it might not be for the person, it isn't for someone else. Break_line: So I'm not going to lay out a perfect curriculum. I know it'd be easier. Like if you work with certain teachers, they'll just tell you, you can only practice this way. The Buddha meant this. They know exactly what the Buddha had in mind. And this is how you do it. You sit for 45 minutes in the morning, 45 minutes at night. I don't know. Where do they get that number from? For one person, especially at the beginning, it's a nightmare to sit that long. Another person is just getting warmed up. And so, learning is central, as your practice unfolds, for you to find your own practice, part of what makes it interesting. Does that help? I know it's not giving you an answer. Questioner: I guess…my question would also be sort of, I think in American society there's a cultural dislike of hierarchy, and teachers. Larry: Do you dislike hierarchy and teachers? I don't care about American culture. Questioner: I did. And I guess now I'm starting to think or wonder who is going to call on my bullshit. Because when I sit, I will sit as far as I'm willing to go. And I don't see the areas that I don't want to go. Larry: Yes. Questioner: So I guess. Do you know…have you seen anyone that can practice without a teacher? Without the community? Larry: The Buddha. But look no, it's a valid point, but that's part of what a sangha is about. But you see, here's where I'd like to… daily life is going to rough you up, going to push your… now, if you're willing to learn, take relationship, please. No, I mean no. No one's here who knows my wife. All right, it's an old borscht circuit Jewish joke. It can be helpful to have a teacher, but it's not a guarantee of anything. One of my teachers, an Indian gentleman named, Krishnamurti. So why of all, I've been helped by many teachers, but why did he help me the most? Because no matter where I thought I got to, he cut it down. I never got one compliment, in all the time I worked with him. But there was a tremendous amount of love there. And I'd get to a place where I was pretty self-satisfied, and he'd listen, and just very clearly, and help me understand it. So he helped. Break_line: But then finally, even with a teacher, much of your life is not going to be with the teacher. Teachers also die. They go away, they go back to wherever. But if you live your life, and let life be your teacher, it's going to keep pushing buttons. If you're willing to learn from your reactions, it will show you where you're kidding yourself. Are you willing to learn? That's the question. And it can be difficult. What I've observed is, we have a powerful... we're masters of self-deception, of hiding, of not looking at what we need to look at, most of all. And here you can get very calm and happy with just the breath in, out, in, out. And just do lots of that. And that could be a dead end. It's still a better way to live, than if you hadn't learned it. But this is going a little bit beyond that. So, if you run into a teacher who's helpful, why not? Don't get caught up in there's some ideology. You're right. American, anti, hierarchical. That's not what's relevant. It's your life that's relevant. And if you run into a teacher, who you feel can help you, I think you'd be foolish, to not take advantage. But the time may come when then they can't help you anymore, and you move on. But finally, you'll have to be a lamp unto yourself. Sorry, we're just stuck with that. I agree with the Buddha. We have to learn how to take care of ourselves, stand on our own. 2ft. As hard as that is, I know it isn't it? What's the second point? Or have you already covered it? Questioner: That's good. I think I knew the answer. I just needed to hear. Larry: Of course you did. Of course you did. Okay End_time: 01:19:04