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interview with Natricia Christopherson Chapter 16 They cannot be lost.
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In this podcast episode, the host discusses the topic of when it might be necessary to kick a child out of the home. The guest explains that if a child's actions are harmful to other family members and they are not respecting the rules and working towards a solution, it may be a natural consequence to ask them to leave. The guest emphasizes the importance of setting ground rules and making it clear that certain behaviors are not acceptable in the home. They also discuss the idea that allowing children to face the consequences of their choices can be a valuable learning experience. The importance of unconditional love and support for struggling children is also highlighted. The guest suggests that parents should focus on developing a loving relationship with their child, regardless of their choices. They share personal experiences and advice on how to navigate the difficult decision of kicking a child out of the home. The episode concludes with a comforting thought from a religious lead Hi, this is Jenny Sparks, and this is, I think, the fifth episode, maybe sixth, of a podcast that I'm doing where I take questions out of the book, Successful Marriages and Families, Proclamation Principles and Research Perspectives by Alan J. Hawkins, David C. Gallaght, and Thomas W. Drake. And today, we will be talking about temple covenants. They shall not be lost, and I'm here with my friend, Natrisha Christofferson. Hello. And she has very kindly agreed to talk about some of these very tough and deep questions that we have here today. And I'm just going to go ahead and start and get right into it. What would be a point in which you would feel the need to kick, quote-unquote, kick out a child out of your home? Okay, so I would think that would be really a hard thing to do, but if the decisions that that kid was making were detrimental to the other kids in the family, and there wasn't respect being shown at working towards a solution and improving them, that it would be a natural consequence. I think it would be hard to see it as kicking them out. I think it would be, you'd lay the ground rules. I mean, I'm trying to think of what situations kids would be in if they're doing drugs or alcohol, you know what I mean, like things that are… That could be harmful, maybe, to your other kids. Yeah, to the other kids, then if ground rules had been set, we love you, but these things can't happen in our house, and we want you to stay here, but if you're going to make these decisions, you won't be able to stay here. And so if that, if the ground rules were set for what the expectation was, and they weren't being respected and met, then they would have to not be there anymore, which sounds like so horrible, and it cringes you inside, right? But there's also, I mean, different kids have different personalities, and some have to learn through their own experience, and so some kids are really going to have to struggle, and if you keep saving them from the consequences of their choices, they're not going to learn the lesson that they have to learn. And so it was interesting, I listened to a lot of podcasts on ThoughtWork, and what we do, and raising kids, and all the things, right? And there was a dad who talked about his child that had addictions, quite severe addictions to drugs, and what that was like for them, and he talks about how the best thing that he ever did, that they were ever able to do for their son, was to let them have the consequences of their choices, as much as it killed them to do it, they knew that they had to learn through those consequences, so. And it's interesting, because one of the examples they gave in the book, and why I came up with that question, was they shared a story in which the father was extremely distraught, because he had just done that, he just kicked out a child, but it was because they were into drugs, and their behavior was threatening the other children, and they just wouldn't, you know, that child had been given chance after chance, like you had talked about, and the devastation that that parent then felt, after doing so, and wondering what kind of parent kicks out their child, right? Because I thought about that a lot, you see a lot of, you know, and I thought, what, back 30, 40 years ago, if you got pregnant, before you're married, some people got kicked out, right? And I've just always been like, oh, man, no way, like, my kid, I love that kid, and, but when it comes to, if you have other small children in your home, right, and you're worried for their safety, and I can't imagine the heartbreak that goes along with that. Oh, for sure. It would have to be one that you were so prayerful about, and knew that it was the right answer. And I feel really strongly that even when kids are making bad choices, we can still love them and help them feel that love, and know that our love is not conditional upon them making correct choices, because God doesn't treat us that way, right? I mean, in practice, that's harder to actually make it happen, like, we really, I struggle with that. It's hard, and I have to really work at all those principles of proper, you know, having authority of any kind, because that's a tough, tough one to do, when you love your kids so much, and realizing that loving them doesn't mean letting them, you know, do whatever they want to. So, yeah, I think even leading up to, there would be a long haul before you ever got to that point, because you're going to be working so hard to help them have resources, and to support them, and whatever, I mean, it depends on what it is that's the problem, but even if you don't have other kids at home, if they are not meeting certain expectations that you and your spouse have, you know, chosen to be the rules of the house, you might still get to that point where they're not able to be there anymore, for their own good and benefit of learning by their consequences of their own choices, right? Exactly, and I think, too, whenever I hear before of kicking someone out, or whatever, not necessarily does that mean you're cutting ties with them either, like you as a parent could still continue to help them, and seek some of the help that they need, just away from the home, and like you said, who knows what kind of help they need. I'm thinking, I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of like drug addiction, and stealing, and yeah, because when that gets to that point, it is that habit is so extreme, and they're so addicted. That's what this one that I listened to with the dad, he was stealing, and just into a lot of things that were really, really bad and hard to deal with. So yeah, I think finding resources for them, but if you're protecting them from the consequences, it is enabling them, and preventing their learning in the way that they need to, that might finally help them. Yeah. So what advice would you give to somebody who is struggling with a wayward child, or a child that needs some help? I think the biggest advice is helping them know, and you personally feeling too, like I feel like this is a big problem in our society, is conditional love, and only showing love, or acceptance, or whatever, when they're making the choices that you want them to. Whether that's in little things, or extreme things like this, and so I think it's really vital for us to learn how to fully love, and feel God's love for them, and be able to show that love, apart from any choices, or whatever they do, and there was a really interesting leadership podcast that I love, it's called Leading Saints, and Kurt Frankem is, I don't know if you've ever heard of that, but he explores this concept of, can God be disappointed in me? He's actually just written a new book about it too, and I think it's super fascinating, because he had this experience where he was just beating himself up, right, because, you know, I haven't read my scriptures for a while, and just wasn't feeling it, and was feeling shame because of the choices he was making not to do the right, the things that he knew he should be doing, and he had just this overwhelming impression come to him, and he heard in his mind, Kurt, you could never read your scriptures again, and I would still love you, right? You know, we don't want to do the things that we are supposed to do, so that we can earn God's love, that love is there, like once we have that relationship, that's when our hearts can change, and when the things that we do, we do because they help us to know him better, and they help us to build a relationship, so I think that relationship, and learning true charity, and God-like love is probably, I would say, top of the list for advice on what to work on, you know? I would say for sure, like, loving your child, and I have tried really hard, and I don't know if I've succeeded, I guess someday when they're adults and they can tell me, because they are adults, most of them for the most part now, but I have, when all my kids went on a mission, I would end the email with, I love you always, no matter what, and I hope that they got that more than that was the end of the email tag, and I've tried to tell them that I would love them always, and I accept them for who they are, if they go on a mission, if they don't go on a mission, if, you know, they decide a different lifestyle for them, I love them, and accept them, and like you said, my love isn't conditional, and that's when I always thought, gosh, I would never be at a point where I kick out a kid, but then when I read this gentleman's story, I thought, hmm, okay, maybe there would be instances where you feel that you had to step in, and how heart-wrenching that moment would be. Very much so. I can't even imagine coming to that moment, and like you said, it didn't just happen overnight, it was a long, spread out thing of struggling with that child. Yeah, and it affects you, and it affects all the aspects of your life, and anyone else that's in the home, oh, it's so hard, and that's why, you know, you would have to know that that was what you were supposed to do, and that was the right step, because you would have to rely so heavily on him holding you through the pain that that would cause you, and the worry, because, well, what are they doing now, I mean, you would just, it would be really hard to manage your brain around that. Yeah, I know. It would be difficult, I can't even imagine, yeah. President Boyd K. Packard, he emphasized that the binding power of the sealing ordinance in 2008 Worldwide Leadership Training Meeting, he said, now there are some times that those that are lost, we have the promise of the prophets that they are not lost permanently, that they are sealed in the temple ordinances, and if the covenants are kept by the parents, and due time, after all the corrections that's necessary to be given, that they will not be lost. That's kind of a really comforting thought. Before I read that, I thought, I didn't know that, actually, that no matter, you know, that because I'm sealed to my husband, and they were born in the covenant, that they can stray, but they're not lost, right? Because of that ordinance. Yeah, I think, you know, our view with our blinders of time that we have now is really difficult to see past that, but I believe, and it was such a merciful God, and I believe that everybody's paths are going to look differently, and children that stray in this life, no matter what it looks like, when that love is present, at some point, I think that love is going to reconnect and rekindle, and I think that there is a long time. Like, we don't just have this earth life to figure things out, and we'd be in trouble if that was all we had, right? And it's comforting to me to know that, even though I don't know that balance, we know that everybody has agency, but when our kids have been taught, and they felt our love as imperfect as our love is sometimes, you know, when they felt that, there is such a power in covenants, and being in the temple, and, you know, even though I don't fully understand all of the things that we say, or what all of the things that we experience in the temple, when I stand in the temple, and I say those words, I think about that connection, and I feel the power. Like, I feel, I know it's real, so even though I wouldn't be able to explain, this is why the power is real, and it's really going to bring them back to you. I know that God is so powerful, and so merciful, and so loving, and the kids will be able to feel that, and whatever that will look like in drawing them back, and helping them to peel away the errors of beliefs, or, you know, problems, or things that they've had to overcome or deal with in their lives, they think it's going to be miraculous to watch it, whatever it's going to look like. Yeah. And too, I think, as well as, like, just as, like, my, I have a big thing, no one has ever really ever calmed down by being told to calm down. Like, that has never happened. So it's kind of similarly, nobody is going to just do what they're told just because you told them to do it, right, depending on the specific things, I guess, I mean, I guess, if you said, go brush your teeth, maybe they go brush their teeth, or maybe they're going to put it under the water and make you think that they brush their teeth, right? So that's the agency involved. And I think it's just important, I think, like we talked about earlier, love is just the key to everything. And if they know that they that you love them unconditionally, and that you will be there for them, and they can come to you with their problems and their worries and their stresses, then I think that helps and solves a lot of issues. I remember reading this article of this teenage boy who committed suicide, and he had gotten on some porn sites. And because of that, some people in a whole nother country, were sending him emails saying they had pictures of him, we're going to expose them, and we're going to expose you to all your friends and all your family, and he paid money, and he emptied his account. And then they, because he ran out of the money, he ended up taking his life. And because he was so humiliated, so sad that his family and his parents and I can't imagine the parents and how they feel about that. Because it's not their fault. It's not his fault. But it is that feeling that your child couldn't feel like they come to you, even though they could. And that's what the mom and dad said, you know, in the interview is, I would have helped him like we love him. Yeah. Yeah. And Satan uses that. Yeah, Satan uses it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 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