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Transcription
The podcast is discussing the nature versus nurture debate when it comes to monstrosity. The word "monster" comes from the Latin word "Maneer" which means to warn. Monsters can refer to dangerous animals or evil humans. The debate is whether monsters are born or made, and there are arguments for both sides. Some argue that monsters are made because they are manifestations of fear and can be seen differently by different people. Others argue that monsters are born, citing historical examples of people born with birth defects or diseases. Society uses the concept of monsters to protect itself from danger. Media often portrays monsters as born naturally or with specific traits. Social conduct and personal experiences can also contribute to what drives someone to be monstrous. Lived experiences and human foundations play a role in determining what makes an individual a monster. Yeah, so like there's really like two sides like you could be someone's monster at the same time like that person's monster could be like another person's hero Good morning, everybody Yeah, we're doing the podcast on nature versus nurture when it comes to monstrosity. I'm knowing I'm Kelly and I'm John For context the word monster comes from the word Maneer a Latin word which means to warn which is kind of ironic seeing that we see monsters as Something that could harm us That's right as it evolved. It came from words that involve large animals came from Extremely immoral humans, so it encompassed both Don't like the actual animal world that could actually physically hurt us and also Evil humans that could hurt us in other ways, so generally we can interpret it as something that keeps us away from danger and It keeps us safe, which is why we associate monster with dangerous things. Yeah, I think one of the biggest beats them on that about this topic is whether monsters are born or made or nature versus nurture and I think this debate is filled with a lot of Evidence and news from each sides, and it'll be interesting to see you know everybody's different perspectives and see if we can come to Some type of conclusion about what people think Yeah in a recent time this debate has become quite. You know quite pop culture with the philosophers and psychiatrists Really bring out the nature of how this applies to human psychology as well We look at recent serial killers and stuff You know it brings to light how important this topic is to how I develop in society and like how we treat our kids So yeah All right For our question or argument are monsters born or created. Oh, I think monsters are made You know what I guess it's tough to explain, but I think you know I think monsters are made because It's sort of that you sort of something that you have to convince yourself is real You know something that you have to convince yourself that you are afraid of it's something that you really manifest in your mind And without you providing the willpower to make me exist. I really don't think that you know monsters are such You know scary things would exist yeah In fiction, I don't think it matters it depends on what the author really wants to focus on with their narrative, so I think that some monsters can be born and some monsters can be made depending on Like it's a one person it could be a monster to another person it could be their savior So about it like you know there's like two different sides to the coin So I don't know I think it's really all about perspective the way that you think about monsters like to one person's perspective Like yeah, that could be a monster, but you could be born to look like a monster But like to other people's perspective They don't care how people look like people have different standards for how like Attractive people look like so like you could be like born like one person think they're the ugliest person on earth But the other person think that you're the most attractive person on earth You know that doesn't really define you as like a monster, and then same thing with actions like I think that all of us have a little bit of a monster inside of us Like good, bad, and a bad side We all have negative qualities, we all have positive qualities born with Envy for example Everybody is envious in one way or another But then it's the nurture element that helps us to do things with that so if somebody is Negative person by nature, but gets good nurture for that I would think that you know like the nurture can overcome nature to a certain degree But I also think that a nurture like nurture can make a good person or it's an interplay between Those two areas Wow those were some great points by our interviewees. Let's dive into this topic a little further It's nature versus nurture. That's the topic of discussion and now we'll go into nature So here's why in nature Should be the correct choice for this argument from a historical standpoint Nature is definitely the correct choice here because because in the past we've we've seen people born with massive birth defects and This like there's hella ugly, but sometimes these birth defects can involve actual diseases As we saw in a Yale article Called the history of human monstrosity published by Yale Medicine so credible source Now it talks about birth defects especially those of circus freaks Those people they were called monsters, but with regards to the actual historical meaning of monster. They weren't dangerous There is mad ugly like so As we see it these people were born born like that and that shows that It's nature that put into them the monstrosity You can also argue however that it was humans that interpret them as monsters, and they're just born like with those problems but thing is if humans see them as extremely extremely monstrous and They're born extremely extremely monstrous looking you can't really blame the humans for like looking at them that way like if someone's born with an extra Leg or a third arm people are gonna look at him funny. That's just human nature So if someone's born looking like a monster feel like it's only natural that that person you know we could argue that that person was born a monster because because he was born like that and It didn't talk about the actual problem of plague and danger when it comes to monsters However, we can also assume that people born with severe contractable diseases would also fit into that category Because of the danger brings with regards to the historical meaning of monstrosity So it makes sense for people to view them that way that's a protective agent for our like for our society so none of us like get it and As we go on about the historical meaning we also have we also can talk about the second article from BSU it It comes from there's their academic journal for their college so they talk about how Frankenstein's monster get Jeffrey Dahmer and Dracula and large spiders all encompass the word monster According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary the meaning of the word monster is a strange or horrible imaginary creature Something extremely or unusually large or a powerful person or thing that cannot be controlled and causes many problems Again, we see how this is used as Society's way of saying stay away from that thing Stay away from that thing to protect its members of society so when you when society collectively ostracizes one specific thing like a scary monster or like a predator in the woods or a dangerous person it makes sense for Human history because that's how we proliferate when we stay away from dangerous things human humanity can stay safe, and you know we'll have enough food to eat when When you're aware of that that is like a you know for example a chupacabra in an ancient Mexican lore There's like a chupacabra that ate like eight sheep and sucked their blood so It makes sense for people to view it that way and for parents to tell their kids. There's a monster in the woods because again it keeps the kids safe first of all from like actual coyotes and Also, it keeps people aware that their sheep are at risk of being attacked by predators And so people be more likely to fence their gates and and whatnot so in the past. It was definitely a form of Protecting and That's like the historical relevancy the word monster Now Izzy will talk about the other side of it for the problem. Yes, so I Would also say monsters are born at birth just because of the narratives. I've witnessed growing up in movies TV shows books they frequently feature monsters as a central element to storytelling and They're pretty much drawn on the idea that monsters are born naturally either through like with Frankenstein like scientific experimentation gone wrong or Genetic mutations or as ancient creatures, or if we see it in humans It's like people with specific traits narcissism envy Psychopathy addiction trauma or people with Physical defects or deformities like no one just talked about but we see that in the media Like in the movie Freaks, which is a 1932 film We see what he was just talking about a lot of humans with those physical deformities And that was something I found when I searched up movies about monsters So that's just something we see growing up and then what the movie split we can talk about that later because I think it's a really interesting film, but we also see like mental illnesses being brought in relation to monsters and And some other films and entertainment that we can also talk about but yeah, these narratives are associated with like real-world concerns with monsters and I Am excited to talk about them Wow, you guys bring up some pretty great points on that side. I Would like to argue I found some pretty interesting points on the side that argues that you know monsters aren't created one of the things we looked about was the impacts of social conducts and personal experiences that can play a role into you know what drives someone to be monstrous and Some of the articles or some of the evidence that I found was that monsters Can be created from society like society's expectations that there's you know a set of rules that you must follow and if you don't you are looked at as monstrous as well as one of the interesting things I found was that you know, we often talk about how monsters You either believe in monsters or you don't but in order to believe in a monster it kind of has to be created for it to Exist and have an influence on your life. So I'll be taking a deeper look into that a little bit later Yes, I don't to John's point I believe that lived experiences definitely play a vital role in determining what makes an individual Essentially or essentially which happens to become or be a monster stemming from like birth and the foundations of what essentially Forms human experiences. I like to come in with the belief that everyone being humans are born inherently good philosophers like John Locke also back this idea with the theme of a tabula rasa clean slate and I think that environments other people influence what Creates monsters or monsters in other in people and yeah, I feel as though Society and many many standards that are quite slim and narrow also go into what society and the standards basically feed into these stereotypes and prejudices that monsters can Manifest from physical appearances whether that comes from statistical deformities or not fitting a beauty standard and Yeah, I think that humans strive from structure From environments that they're comfortable with. So if someone grows up in a chaotic environment they're going to take that throughout the rest of their life and implement that to feel a sense of familiarity and Safeness so that's just back to my statement that You know monsters are created. They're not just Put out into the world. They're made from other people experiences and learned and learned behaviors That's great, that's great Kelly So I'm really curious by your side Can you share any personal experiences or narratives that influence your beliefs about monsters and monstrosity anything personal happened that made you think that it was There's your nature That's a good question Growing up a lot of the stories I heard about monsters were always like myths folklore fairy tales in a sense that and the character that always made out to be monstrous was the antagonist they You know started off their lives quite normal as any other person would but then something influenced them to change the way they behaved something bad whether that was like mostly traumatic or Yeah, it's definitely traumatic life-altering things that they're not used to we're not used to in the sense that a change from this from their normal, but it Influenced their normal to become something else which then made them a monster in the sense so they weren't once evil quote-unquote evil or Chose to wreak havoc or do what monsters are made to Made to do Yeah, just to piggyback off of that I would say that You know in terms of the personal experiences, I I wouldn't say I have you know a Specific experience of myself, but I would say you know in movies or you know the classic You know bully the you don't just be born like a bully most of times It's because of like a childhood like they're being abused as a you know the bully becomes a bully you know you always hear that narrative and You know and a lot of like you know the movies with like the superhero and the villain the villain normally has a troubled upbringing or something that happens to them that makes them act a certain way and That no one is really born you know as you know bad or as monstrous as you know Right like they become to be like a school shooter like no one's born a school shooter, but something definitely impacted There No exactly I complete I completely agree, I think you see like you know criminals anything like that There people born bad or chooses to necessarily People's pasts have an influence on them for sure that's what exactly I actually think that school shooters a lot of the school shooters that we see have or even terrorists are Usually Well their means for doing the school shooting or you know acting on violence or whatever usually stems from some kind of mental illness or Something that is within them like what what kind of traits are those like I think like sadism or Like sociopath yeah, so she happened and it's like psychopathy Yeah, those are those would make you like just have no empathy right yeah, don't see top of it Yeah, those are those would make you like just have no empathy right yeah I don't see people as people you just see them as like objects Those are the kind of kids that they're kind of dissect your your local squirrels and your local rats just for fun I Read an article what some other time and it was like they interviewed the Linda interview the school shooters. They it was like like interrogation, but He literally said he didn't shoot him. They employ him the kids were really all innocent the the kids. He was shooting up They did not bully him But he did not go to that school I'll actually go to that school But he did not go to that school like in the same year that those kids gone like he went a while ago And he was older then and he shooting little kids, and he said he did it just he wanted to Like that that's a little fucked up like that that guy. He's having one something Exactly a lot of times. It's not something that you experience growing up because a lot of the time what I actually Did research on? Like the media aspect of it in regards to entertainment I watch a lot of law and order special victims unit and I have seen episodes where There are like There are people who have done like very malicious things and They don't really get any consequence for it because it is associated with like a mental disorder For example there was this one This one episode where this boy was Just he had Dissected a bunch of animals especially he was killing a lot of dogs and then dissecting them and then just freezing them, but he had a like good upbringing he was from a very like Good household all that he had two parents like I mean it all depends on like what we see as a good upbringing, but like From like the movies perspective or from the show's Perspective like he had a good upbringing his family very rarely cared about him but he just had this in him that like you know he got a lot of What is that word when you get um when you get a lot of When Okay, I can't think of the word great point um oh So one of the things I would say no however you said you stated that the kid had a great upbringing, right? so what I'm trying to what I would like to point out is If he did have a great upbringing and like what we were trying to argue that something must have happened Something must have pushed him to you know. It's what it was what he was born with you Okay, and with that and and don't get me wrong I I do believe that you know mental illness is definitely play a role in it, but would you say that you know? There are also outside You know Influences or events that do impact that no I Mean from what I've seen in media a lot of the times. It's just these people their disorders and like if you think about compulsive disorder or With someone from split like D.I.D. It's a Identity disorder so what like from what I've seen like a lot of times. It's not something that has affected their like It's not something they experience Throughout their life, but it's just something they were born with and I definitely see where you're coming from and your point But then I feel as though if it's something that they're born with and it's recognized by their household or their community I feel as though it's their place as you know raising a child and takes a village of course to Interfere in said patterns of behaviors not that mental illnesses can necessarily have a fix, but they are I feel as though there are preventive measures to reduce outbreaks and events It's true. I agree. You can definitely society's role to reduce outbreaks however When you have a wild animal in a cage for example right you let the wild animal out It's possible to restrain the animal you can tame it, but one day that wild animal that lion That orca is gonna eat its trainer. At SeaWorld they've tamed these animals for generations for three decades But that one time I think it happened twice actually it literally ate its trainer. It drags underwater and it ate it That's how I compare it someone born with this kind of problem to a wild animal in a cage It obviously you can restrain it, but they're predisposed for violence Once they get an opportunity you leave them alone, it's kind of happy one day you can lose right that's like the animalistic nature that humans have Yeah, right, but at the end of the day we are human so it's our job as a society to recognize each and everyone's human humanity despite their Despite their uniqueness, but we're also individual. I would oh, I would agree the animal part I Don't think It's hard for me I see like you know all these animals in zoos and cages and stuff like that like to argue our point Is that that's not you know their environment? That's not the environment they're born to be in so if they you know the environment definitely plays a role in Maybe that outbreak because they're not used to being that that's not their natural habitat So I mean they are you know quote-unquote wild animals, and if they you know cage I mean a lot imagine living your whole life in a cage like that's that you would go crazy right that's the animal though What about the guy with the disorder that makes him sociopathic that makes him view humans as nothing more than puppets? Let's say this. What is his natural habitat? Where does he belong? Where would he even go I? Think that's I think that's a great point. I think I think there are You know certain resources That that individual can use and kind of what Kelly said there are steps and measures to take to reduce the possibilities of That individual committing a crime or doing something extremely bad Yeah for sure for sure You All right, I like to ask Ask you guys another question as a group. I mean I mean to you two as a duo so What if someone what if someone's born as a seven-foot Cyclops with thick black hair all right? Like that's just gotta be a monster right no matter how no matter if people like treat him Nicely if they view him as I don't want to see them, and they go. Oh, it's a monster, then they go. I must be a monster right doesn't that mean Nature or Trump's nurture in that case Well My interview my interviewee actually touched on this topic a little bit which I think can answer a question Point number one is let's be realistic first of all the guy with the disorder that makes him sociopathic that makes him view humans As nothing more than puppets. Let's say this. What is his natural habitat? Where does he belong? Where would he even go I? think I Think there are you know certain resources? that that individual can use and kind of what Kelly said there are steps and measures to take to reduce the possibilities of That individual committing a crime or doing something extremely bad All right, I like to put ask Ask you guys another question as a group. I mean I mean uh to you two as a duo so What if someone what if someone's born as a seven-foot? Cyclops with thick black hair all right Like that's just gotta be a monster right no matter how no matter if people like treat him Nicely if they view him as I don't want to see them, and they go. Oh, it's a monster Then they got my must be a monster right doesn't that mean? Nature over Trump's nurture in that case well My interview my interviewee actually touched on this topic a little bit which I think can answer a question Point number one is let's be realistic first of all Now we can look at the birth defects because that is something that happens That is something that happens, you know a lot more my rebuttal to that question is with children with you know down syndrome, you know any type of Disorder of that nature is to label them as monstrous is Kind of you're jumping to a conclusion like what? Who's to say that there is actually a way that you should look and not like what are the actual rules? Let's say you have to be Six feet tall you have to be look a certain way like who's Who I would like to know where that where that law is If you could show me it must be society I feel like having sinister qualities is different than actually looking like a monster. You know, it's unjust to Take someone and dehumanize them just because they don't necessarily fit a certain category fits or embossed look like you for example I feel like Them being seven foot Cyclops even though it's very unrealistic as a human Doesn't necessarily mean that they're monsters Okay, so say And John what they were saying so they mentioned that monsters really are made because Society interprets them that way and when they grow up even if they're super ugly So it's society that makes them the way they are However, I just want to argue the converse, right If someone is born like that obviously, it's not right to treat someone with Down syndrome poorly just because they're ugly, but the truth is like when someone is Someone is birthed and you see a baby So they're born say they're born Cyclopea or some kind of severe severe Down syndrome or dwarfism The civility morphs their face or they are cleft-lipped You can't help you to go. Oh, that's an ugly baby, you know in your in your heart You're thinking that's a monstrous. That's a monstrous looking baby, you know Sometimes things are human nature and you can't help but think things that way and in your in your heart You think you think of them as a monster, but obviously it's not right to treat them that way So I think we can differentiate that Let me differentiate how we treat monsters and how we view them because some things are just physiological Some things we can we see and we go that's ugly baby, you know, can't help that. That's just human nature So according to you monster equals ugly Well, when you see a baby like that you see monsters, I know you see a monster because I see a monster you see monster briefly It's a tough look it's a tough look however You know, they were dealt that hand and you know Do you think you should be punished for something that you have no control over? That's what society does Nicely but obviously Does but we're not saying that a person like or in it with They should inherently think that they're ugly and gonna commit monstrous acts I think that that's what we see through media and entertainment and believe it I don't believe a person with like down syndrome or Or like some other kind of like physical deformity is a monster I think for For myself. I think it's mostly certain characteristics and traits or certain Disorders that people are born with like that make them that way but not like I don't think the physical aspect really relates to my understanding and argument but It's mostly like what's inherent in someone like their envy traits and their sadistic traits if they are suffering from like compulsive disorder or dissociative identity disorder And like some other kind of disorders. I think that supports my argument. So I just want to clear something up. So the first thing One of the things we talked about, you know this semester was Monsters are just physical or goes like beyond the physical. So you're saying that it's just physical No, it's definitely the other physical, but it's it's both encompasses Because like if you have a serial killer, right and obviously they're a monster But if you have a serial killer that same time looks like chupacabra Then like that's you could argue that like that's definitely an aspect that makes him more monsters, right? Yeah No, I think it's an aspect of consideration But definitely the mental aspects and their actual actions a matter a little more like the ugly person is obviously not gonna be as monsters That's someone who killed seven two million Jews That's just like, you know, how it is. So yeah, but even with that still standing people are born psychological Prepositions to be like addicted and you know, they kill people That's all definitely still there. I Agree, but I also have to add that sometimes though. They're passed down. So if we really Cycle back to their parents, you know came together and pre created them. That's still nature so media media, you know, we live in a Technology filled world now nowadays. Everybody is a phone they can get you know news that in a split second and one of the things that You know, we talked about that could play a role in to You know monstrosity is the fact that there's So there's a bigger chance of false information spreading that can create you know this narrative that is Amplified or you know expressed more to what is actually reality what's going on? You just want to touch on that? Yeah, I definitely agree with that Like I can see that so much nowadays, you know with the whole 2015 election or doesn't 20 election Actually, we're like like Trump literally had his supporters from the White House, but like Okay, and I can see monstrosity from both parties though You know, I could see Democrats also like super monsterizing Trump like that's also there but you know You can see it from other side as well So politically 100% 100% there and that's definitely one of the reasons why it's polar politics nowadays People don't want to see each other as people But in the media, I think that's like the biggest thing politics the media perpetuating differences and Amplifying them. I don't think people Democrats Republicans actually have that big of a difference. They're both Americans. They both believe in freedom They just want in different ways, but the media makes them think they're they're black and blue or not like blue black We read actually, but you know yeah, I think that's one of the great things about America is that You know, no matter what side your views are you know, we're on we're on the same team and Just to be able to respect each other's opinions. So not only you know your views but also You know this debate on monsters how there's not really right or wrong answer for that as well Yeah, I mean, I think that monsters definitely fit into certain categories It's not fair to just limit them whether it's a nature or nurture you know, we have our social outcasts like serial killers and school shooters that just Unprovokingly harm and bring stress on people's lives and to society and then we also have like antagonists Where the course of their lives have unfortunately shaped them into villains whether that's through learned behaviors as trauma responses or not being able to Feel a certain connection towards society for example I feel like after 9-11 the trauma phobia went up like a wildfire painting all Muslims and Muslim appearing people as these terrorists and monsters, but it's not just to just label these groups of people Due to physical appearance or based off of prejudices from past events I think that line of demarcation of what appears to be monstrous and what is actually monstrous is still very unclear in Western culture My interview we mentioned this in our conversation. He said that His therapist walked on a trip to Jamaica came across a spider and got really startled and scared And she screamed asking someone to kill it but the locals just looked around and laughed at her as It wasn't bringing harm to anyone. It didn't deem the spider worth being stripped of his life, but she did It's unfortunate that the media, you know paints everything sometimes including natural aspects of life as Unworthy of Having his life Yeah, I'd say the world definitely isn't all glitter and gold but that doesn't make everything monstrous and dangerous Yeah, I have to agree with that. She's definitely on to some great points there You know, there's definitely a spectrum of rights and wrongs monstrous non-monstrous Spectrum and politics and media and everything. It's not right to look at something as just bad or good You know that spider really wasn't trying to hurt anybody It was just chilling but you know, she wanted to kill it because she thought it was scary Locals knew it was up, you know, so I definitely think we need to embrace more of that ambiguity in today's Today's climate today's media today's everything, you know, people aren't just Republican Democrat There's a sort of fine, you know heated debate between one side versus the other Generally speaking people are a mixture of both people are a mixture of monstrous and non-monstrous Monsters are a mixture of both nature and nurture and their upbringing you can't really blame it all in nature because it's not all in nature people like people treated and Their childhood and with when they're growing up and there's a lot and it definitely is affected by the way they were born You know, if someone's born ugly, they're gonna be treated like they're ugly. That's how it is. So definitely society Nature and but in a nurture they all play a role in how monsters are developed and seen so I think it's pretty much perspective honestly, like If someone is born ugly who's to judge that they're ugly It's like obviously society you said but that's just the perspective. So like I think it's It's like what you deem as monstrous like in your own perspective. Like it's what lens you're looking at things like On an interview we talked about this, but I won't like really get into it. Um, but he talked about how the Nazi men were Obviously, you know portrayed as monstrous in history. Um To us because they were mass murderers, you know, they Just did a lot of negative things but To some other people they were, you know, respectable people They had families and they were loving parents or just high worthy men And so like that just goes to show you like it's really just all about perspective and we can have our opinions on What we think is monstrous or who we think is a monster and who's a hero But yeah, so It's all about what lens you're looking through
