TWOM - Episode 2: Defining “Toxic” Traits. Brother Tate? Views on Mental Health.

In this podcast episode, the hosts discuss masculinity, toxic masculinity, feminism, and toxic feminism. They interview two guests who share their perspectives on these topics. They also mention a controversial figure named Andy Tate, who promotes misogynistic views. While one guest disagrees with his message and believes he should not have a platform, the other guest believes in free speech and thinks deplatforming is not the solution. They discuss the importance of not giving him too much attention. Welcome everyone. In our previous podcast episode, I briefly talked about men's mental health and the war on men while slightly touching upon the topic of toxic masculinity with our guest Carlos Miranda. In this episode, the second episode of our short series, The War on Men, Men's Mental Health, we have two new guests. Good afternoon. My name is Ruben Jaya. Good afternoon. My name is Megan Saju. Welcome guys. Glad to have you on the show. To start us off, we're going to jump right into the mud. And your tape. Just kidding. That's for later. So, Megan, I understand you two are in the same fraternity here at NJIT. So, you must know a little bit about each other and share somewhat similar beliefs and or ideas. So, I would like to start with you first by simply asking you, what is your definition of masculinity? That's a really interesting question. I think for me, masculinity is about being true to yourself, knowing who you are, and not being insecure about your masculinity. And just being true to your identity and knowing who you are as a person, I think, is the biggest characteristic of masculinity for me personally. Nice. Very nice. And now to build on top of that, now that you said that, what would you define as toxic masculinity? I think toxic masculinity, it's like a commonly used phrase now in our society. But I guess for me, it's more like when people have like a different, people kind of use culture to define their masculinity. Like masculinity should be this big guy, strong guy who doesn't have emotions. And that's just like toxic for men as a whole because a lot of men feel they can't talk about their emotions in a public setting or they feel like they can't cry. And that just keeps them from expressing their emotions. And that's going to affect them in the long term because people should be able to understand their emotions and feel safe in the society to express them. I think that's really important for anyone, not men, not just men, but women also. That's very interesting. Very interesting indeed. Now I want to shift over to Ruben real quick and ask you, what's your definition of feminism? I believe feminism is everything that encompasses how females express themselves to the world. Every year that passes by, it becomes something more openly talked about and something more involved in our society. Feminism often has a bad connotation because of what we see on the internet and certain outrages by women. But I think at the root of it, it just is women trying to protect themselves from suppression, you know, decades of being treated unequal by men. And I think there's a good cause behind it. Perhaps though it just isn't portrayed in the best of light and which causes it to garner an even worse reputation among everyone really. Alright, cool, cool, cool. And just like I asked Megha, not building on that, what would you consider to be a toxic feminist or toxic feminism? I think toxic feminism is when blame is placed on men for everything that goes bad or everything bad involved in women's life. Obviously, men are a factor in it, but I don't think it's the main cause of it. And sometimes it's just basically the blame, who gets the blame. And sometimes it can be very toxic and have no sense. But again, I think in the root of it, there is a good cause. It's just not expressed well. Nice, very interesting. Now I'm going to read off straight off, you know, Google, Oxford's Dictionary. So masculinity is defined as having qualities or attributes regarded as characteristics of men, while toxic masculinity is a set of attitudes and ways of behaving stereotypically associated with or expected of men, regarded as having a negative impact on men and on society as a whole, and vice versa with females and femininity, not to be confused with feminism. Feminism is defined as advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes. What are your thoughts on that? Based on the definition that you gave, what are your thoughts on the actual definition with feminism being defined as the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of equality of the sexes? I think my definition was pretty similar. I think that what is most important here is the equality factor and women fighting, you know, like I mentioned, decades of suppression and just being treated as not the same as a man, and that's just the root of it. I see that you gave a little snarky. May I ask why you chug a little bit? I don't know. Or what do you think was, I guess, the main factor in why you chug a little bit? What was the difference between what his original definition was compared to what the actual definition was? I like Ruben's definition, but I felt like it was a little bit more culture-centric versus the official definition was, I guess, not in the context of our society. But I like Ruben's definition because I feel like it gives more context to, like, what's going on right now in the world. So one of the last definitions I searched up was toxic feminism, which is the belief that women should always be higher up than men, often backed up with physical or verbal abuse towards the other gender, not to be confused with toxic femininity. That's not to be confused with feminism. And it was actually interesting trying to find the definition because when I typed in on Google toxic masculinity pages, articles and entire websites were dedicated to show what toxic masculinity is as opposed to toxic feminism, which was, I don't want to say extremely hard to find, but it was a little bit – you had to scroll down in order to find some results that pertained to that. And the results that you do find instantaneously often blame men, and it shows how toxic feminism is a made-up thing made by toxic men. Right there, instantly, you can see the differences. And like I said, when we search for toxic feminism, it is often viewed as a myth or something made up by men and or is somehow related to the fact that it is men's fault, but it doesn't talk about the chauvinism and the misandry that is often propagated into the young minds of those days. So stepping back for just a second, I was reading a few articles on toxic masculinity from VeryWellMind.com and GreenHillRecovery.com, which is a little bit different from what you – actually, not completely different. There were a couple points that, like I said, that are similar to toxic masculine men. Those traits include dominance, violence, control, and power. Now, me personally, if this is the definition of toxic masculinity, by all means, I am the most toxic masculine man that I know, being taught the ways by our righteous and religious man, Brother Tate. Now, that's not to say I agree with all that he says. He does say some things that I don't necessarily agree with, but for the most part, he does spread a positive message, which most toxic feminists don't agree with. I very much disagree with that statement. I think that Andy Tate is – like everything he stands for, I just completely disagree with, and I think that he is like – he should just not be given a platform. So I slightly touched upon this in my previous episode, but why do you think that? Why should he have a platform? I think he just propagates messages of just like pure misogyny, and like his idea that just men are just generally more competent, smarter, and should be valued as such more than women. It's just completely against everything that women have worked for for centuries to become equal, and it's not just in this country, around the world, and women are still fighting for their rights in various countries. I think that the messages that he gives across in his TikToks or any platform he's given, the fact that we're even entertaining that notion is just ridiculous to me, and I think that like the fact that he's able to gain such a following in this day and age shows like the true colors, I guess, of like a lot of people, and like it just shows that like men have been waiting to say the things that he says, but they were just scared to say it because of the backlash that they've received. So, yeah. I just agree with Megha. I don't think he should be deplatformed. However, I do not agree with like the majority of what he said. I think if we come to deplatforming certain people, we should just establish what can be said and what cannot be said, and in today's world, it just wouldn't work. We live in a world where free speech is the epitome of what we stand for, and it's something that we have been fighting for for a very long time, especially in the United States, and it should just be spread across the entire world if possible. There are many countries where the slightest disagreement with the government can put you into danger, and the fact that we don't live in the world should be something positive. And so this doesn't mean that he should be deplatformed. He has been saying this for a long time, and I think that the root of it is that he just wants to be controversial, and unfortunately, today, controversy is what drives a person. It's what gets clicks, and if he has to say something out of this, that doesn't make any sense. He's going to say it, and it's going to get a lot of interactions and impressions, and unfortunately, it's just the way it is. I agree with Ruben in the sense that like he is getting a lot of traction for everything he's saying. That could also be a reason for some of the things he says and the way he decides to say it. He knows that he'll get a reaction out of people, and he's going to increase his viewers and stuff like that. But I do believe in free speech, but I didn't mean to deplatform, but I just meant we shouldn't keep discussing him in various platforms, because the more we discuss him, the more popularity he gains, I guess. So I just meant not take away his social media or anything like that, because we can't really do that, but just try not to give him the importance that we're currently giving him. Like everyone knows who he is. I just don't feel like he's important enough of a person that everyone should know who he is. Okay, there's a couple things. Ruben said that we're fighting for freedom of speech, and we should have freedom of speech. And then he said we should have, I guess, we should create an outline for what we should and shouldn't be able to say. And, Megha, you also said you can't just take away all the platforms out of one person. I mean, it's been done before to Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tate, Donald Trump. And some of them had, you know, no one's perfect. Everyone's human. They have their own opinions. Whether it be right or wrong, and it's up to people to interpret those. So some of the messages Andrew Tate does spread are similar to what toxic masculinity is now defined as, you know, having dominance, violence, control, and power. And, like I said, I don't agree with most of the stuff he says, but, you know, some of the stuff he is right. And these very traits that are seen as toxic and looked down upon, you know, frowned upon are some of the traits that you could say most women look for when finding a man. Because most women do want the dominant man that can resort to violence but doesn't always need to and is always in control of the situation. Because, in all honesty, who would you prefer? A man that you say he's, you know, he's peaceful but he's weak? Or a strong man that's, you know, peaceful but he's strong? Because if a weak man ever gets into an altercation, he's going to need that strength, but he's not going to have it. And then he could potentially get into harm's way and he can also lead you into harm's way as opposed to a strong man that is in control of the situation, can protect himself and you, and any potential, I guess, family that you want to build with him. So, me personally, I think it's good to be violent as a man, but a man should be violent and should have control of that violence and power and know when and how to use it. Because if not, you're going to end up with a weak man who, as soon as he gets a little bit of power or a little bit of anything, really, he's going to exploit it to the max, which could potentially harm those around him. Tying back to the title of the podcast itself and mentioned in previous episodes as well, men do need mental help. But, in my opinion, if you follow your gut and do everything you can to always be your best, I can personally guarantee you that you'll be able to pull yourself out of that state of mind. And if, for whatever reason, you still need help as time goes on, you know, holding back your emotion as many, I want to say, feminists nowadays say it's not healthy to do, if you hold onto that emotion, it would only make you a stronger man. And if you do, like I said, for whatever reason, you still need help in the future, there is always therapy. But I feel like therapy shouldn't be accessible to men until the very end because it's that struggle that's going to force you and mold you to become the best version of yourself. I assure you that by the time you think you've reached your limit, you're only about, I want to say, 40% done, that's when you need to put your mind, body, and soul into overdrive and really pull through and show what your character is made out of. Going back to your point about how men should only seek mental health at the very end, I think we're looking at mental health in the wrong way. I feel like a lot of people look at mental health as like a last resort to reach an end to a means, right? But mental health is just like any other health, like you go to the doctor to get a physical checkup, make sure nothing's wrong. In the same way, you would go to a therapist to just kind of understand, like, what's going on in your brain, why am I feeling this way. And then you can take the steps, as you said, the struggle or the steps on your own to make those changes. But a lot of times, people who struggle with severe mental illness, for example, anxiety, depression, that's a chemical imbalance in your brain. And you can't just tell people to push through that. That's like a physical chemical imbalance in your brain. So going to professional help is not a sign of weakness. I think it's a sign of strength because you're acknowledging that you don't know everything and you're seeking the professional help. And you acknowledge that other people might know better than you in various situations. Like, you wouldn't think that you could fix the electrical things in your house. You'd call a professional because you know that you don't know anything about that, right? In the same way, a lot of different fields, you might not know what specifically it is. So I think it's important that men seek mental health before it gets to the point of, like, dire need, which is where we see suicide rates in men are higher than women and a lot of issues like that, where we can prevent those things from happening. What did you say before, Nadia? I said a lot of the dominance. Oh, right, a man to protect you. Just for me personally, I do agree. Like, it's nice to know that if you're ever in – I mean, I hope no one's ever in a physical altercation. But let's say there is a physical altercation for some reason. I would always prefer someone who can deal with issues verbally first. But let's say that can't happen and it has to be physical. As any person wants to be safe, I would want someone who can deal with a physical altercation. But more than that, I would want someone who has, like, the emotional intelligence to know when things are worth fighting for and when things aren't worth fighting for. Because, like, that goes – it extends past more than just, like, altercations with people in the exterior. Like, also altercations with your significant other if you can understand, like, when there needs to be a fight, when there doesn't need to be a fight, like, verbally, I mean. So it's just, like, I would prefer someone who would rather verbally hash it out versus physically. But if it has to be physical, then, yeah, I want someone who can fight for me, I guess. But just because someone's strong doesn't mean they have to be violent. I think, like, peaceful doesn't mean weak. I think we're equating peace and weakness and strength and violence. That's not necessarily the case. I think strong people can be peaceful, and that's kind of what women want, just at least for me personally. I think the notion that men should sleep with their girls is very unfortunate and something that is taught, I think, by the way that we are raised by our parents. I think, personally, I was never told, you know, like, if you ever feel bad, just come talk to me or if you ever feel a certain way. And so the second that I started having these feelings, you know, as a teenager or as a young adult, I didn't know how to cope with it. And I just thought, you know, just don't do anything about it. Don't reach out because especially as a man, anytime you try to reach out, you just get the same type of response or attitude towards it. You know, just stick through it. Because I can guarantee if a woman or a girl goes to her friends or her teacher and talks about her feelings, you know, it will be something more natural and something that they will get help for. Therapy should not be a last resort. It should be something that, like Mika said, like a checkup, you know. You get a physical checkup. You should also get a mental checkup. It's just not ingrained in our society. And the reason for that, I don't know. You know, like Mika said, for example, depression can be a chemical imbalance. It's not something that you can just stick it out through. You have to get checked up. If you have a broken leg, you know, you go to the surgeon. If you have a broken mind, why can't you just go to a professional, like a therapist or someone who knows what they're doing, who knows how to help you. And obviously it's not like there is, you know, if you break your leg, obviously there's a direct solution. You get surgery. Whereas with mental health, it's not a direct solution. It can take years. It can take a long time. But there's a way. And it's been proven. And I think we should not think of it as a last resort, but if anything, the first resort. I feel like what you said, Ruben, now I'm thinking of it differently as a, you know, physical checkup and a mental checkup. I didn't think about it like that before. I guess I should be thinking about it more like that. But I still stand by my point that it's these opposition or struggles in life that are really going to build you. Because if you compare men that don't go to therapy as opposed to men that are exposed to therapy at a really young age, the men that are exposed to therapy at a really young age often grow up feeling content with their lives. I mean, obviously not to say that you shouldn't be appreciative, but they're, I want to say, overappreciative. They think their life is perfect as it's going and that they shouldn't really do more than they need to. And that's where I really find an issue because they haven't faced struggle. As opposed to men that have faced struggle from a really young age, they grow up to be better than, to be able to provide more and be better than what they were dealt with at a really young age. I want to say, just to conclude this because we're a little bit out of time, I want to say that this isn't, I titled it, it's the war on men, but this goes way beyond that. And it's not really a war with feminism and masculinity. It's not really a war of genders or a war on ideals. There's people that are still fighting for this, knowing the difference between right and wrong, because there's an invisible hand behind all this that are pulling the strings in order to effectively divide and conquer the genders. Because when all the strong men of the world are dead, they will go after those that are next, which are boys, which are likely to become strong men, much like in the Bible. I don't know if you guys know the Massacre of the Innocents, where Herod the Great, king of Judea, ordered the execution of all male children who were two years old in Bethlehem, because he got a prophecy that said there was going to be a rising king of Jews who was going to overthrow him, which was Jesus Christ. And similar to that, it's happening today in real time, where they're going to get a new king, It's happening today in real time, where they're going to get rid of men, then they're going to get rid of boys, but they're going to leave women defenseless for what's to come, which I don't really know what it is. Yes, any final thoughts? I don't want to make this quick, but I think when you talk about having to face certain situations in life to build yourself, to become the person you are, I don't fully agree with this. I don't think you're taking into account the long-lasting effects of having to battle something by yourself. Yes, obviously, going through something by yourself can build your character, can make you a stronger person, but a lot of people just relapse, a lot of people just go back, and they never receive that help. They don't know in the future when something else comes up. It just goes to shit, really. When you compare it to the people that did receive help, they're also going to go through it. It's not like they have a perfect life either, just because they received help. I'm sure they have other problems, such as financial problems or marriage problems, and I think if we just take out the mental problems, then it would be a lot easier. It's not going to work, obviously. You can't do it to a fine degree, but if we even try and just reduce it, I think we'll do everyone a favor and help out a lot of people in need. I agree with Ruben in the sense that it's not that just because someone goes to get mental health that all their problems will be solved, but it's just more of like we're allowing men to know that they have these resources and that it's not cowardly for them to reach out and use their resources just like women would, because at the end of the day, men and women, although we might have different struggles, we both have struggles. We're both going through similar things, because we're all human. So I think it's only fair that men are given the same amount of sympathy as women in terms of mental health and just communicating with them and letting them know that it's okay to go through these things. It's normal as humans to go through mental health problems, and it's not a sign of weakness, but it is a sign of strength to seek out help and seek out to understand that you have a problem and understand that you want help to fix it. I think that shows a lot of bravery. So, yeah. Very nice. Very nice way to end off the podcast, but I want to thank our two guests, Ruben and Mego. I wish we had more time, but we're going a little bit over right here, just a tad bit over. Thank you guys for sticking around, and this has been Giovanni Martinez with Episode 2 of The War on Men's Mental Health. I will catch you guys next episode. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace.