Indigenous Ways of Knowing Podcast

Ella and Ellen discuss their learning experiences in an Indigenous Ways of Knowing class. They talk about the concept of land-based education, which emphasizes experiential learning and the interconnectedness of all life. They compare this to their own non-experiential education, which they feel limits their understanding and connection to the world. They also discuss the importance of holistic learning, where the whole community is involved in teaching and nurturing the learner. They mention the impact of colonialism and the clash between Indigenous and Western worldviews. Both concepts resonate with them and highlight the need for a more inclusive and interconnected approach to education and identity. Hello, my name is Ella, and I'm Ellen, and this is our podcast on how we have come to understand and learn through Indigenous Ways of Knowing class and how we are implementing it into our lives today and moving forward. We decided to do it together so that it would be more discussion-based rather than just talking to ourselves. That way we could interact and compare our experiences. Okay, so the first question that we're going to be talking about today is what was the most interesting thing that we both learned in this class and then why. So I'll go first. So one of the most interesting things that I learned in this class was the concept of land-based education. I think I was most engaged with this concept because we did so much research outside of the content that was given to us. Specifically within this overarching concept, I found the way in which land-based education is meant to be experiential to be very interesting. So within this, experiential education was defined as a process of learning by doing, which begins with the learner engaging in direct experience followed by reflection. The way in which education is meant to be experienced is thought of and taught in a respectful manner. Indigenous knowledge does not aim at producing human-based theories or solutions, but at observing relationships between elements within a system. Moreover, land-based education reveres and respects all life, enacting the principles of reciprocity and interdependence and balance. The practical application of theoretical knowledge is a valuable contribution to the learning process, which is made through experiential learning. Another concept is the act of participation, which is developed by the immersion experience, which provides motivation for recognition of environmental and social variation and the need for new strategies for social change. Students that participate in an experiential environment develop an understanding of the interrelationship between the ecology of their community and its social framework in a global context. It provides the Indigenous student with the task of being conscious about and taking responsibility for the reality of their own political and cultural awareness. It is in this very act that the central experiential learning in an Indigenous context value is realized, the ability of all persons to know their potential for development and self-awareness, wholeness, inner and outer harmony. So I think I found this education system to be interesting because it differed so greatly from the way in which I experience my own education. I have found that the knowledge we gain is not often meant to be applied. We are often not immersed in what we are learning, and so you do not actually experience it or really get a feel for it. Learning is limited by the classroom rules, so to an extent what you can learn is placed in these walls and you do not get to expand past it. So it almost feels like you are trapped in a room with a ceiling or a classroom, which limits you to what you can learn without experiencing it for yourself. Because non-experiential learning is so disconnected, students often do not form an identity within a broader context, so culture, world, society, that they are part of. As a result, responsibility is often not taken for actions that we do not feel like we are part of. For instance, when I reflect on my own education, colonialism was always taught in the past tense, meaning that it had happened and that it was bad, but that it was over. There is no connection drawn to the tangible role that we could and do play in colonialism today. Although this topic was taught in class, it was not in depth and it was often brushed over, meaning it wasn't meant to feel like it was still relevant today. As a result, I feel like I grew up knowing colonialism was bad and seeing the consequences it had, but viewing it as something of the past and something that I was unconnected to. In other words, this didn't impact the way my own identity was formed in relation to the world around me. I think this was dangerous and a super slippery slope. I think this problem lies in partly how the curriculum was created, but also with how disconnected non-experiential learning is. As Ellen has said, I also grew up in the educational system where we had maybe one class or two on the colonialism or the Indigenous ways of knowing. I feel like, as Ellen mentioned, it was a past subject that it wasn't something carried on and then we just moved on with our lives and didn't think much about it. But through going through this course and looking at the impact that it still has on those individuals today, it is really relevant and it made it more real today. And the impact that we have to do and change is significant. So, yeah, as Ellen also mentioned, I had some more interest of the holistic and learning ways of Indigenous knowledge and I found this really cool. In our Western society, we don't often look at the person as a whole. We mostly look at the person through one lens, whether that's medical or their job or anything like that, and not how they are and how they attribute to the society as a whole. But through looking at the intricate layers of Indigenous knowledge and learning systems, yeah, the concept of interconnectedness really stood out to me and realizing that everything is interrelated with the Indigenous perspective being profoundly at the top for me. And so one area that I looked closer at this was through our presentation of land-based education and the importance of holistic learning. And so this really stood out to me because it wasn't just a teacher or a parent teaching the child, it was the whole community was involved. So whether that was the elders, the aunts, the uncles, everybody learned a specific job or was able to teach the child something different or in another way that the parents may not have done. And so this just kind of incorporates the physical world by doing as well as one's spiritual and emotional and all of the other aspects of a person instead of just their mental learning. And so the example of the Métis learner, like a tree that we mentioned in our presentation was really impactful for me because it kind of looks at someone needs optimal conditions for growth. And so this is and can change throughout the natural cycle just as a human and a tree needs. And so the health of a tree or the Métis learner is impacted by the conditions, but it also impacts the future health of the root system or like the forest of learners, so the people that come after them. And so this goes to show that the people are interconnected with one another, whether that is direct or indirect contact. And additionally, there's like harmony and balance that is maintained through an individual's health and well-being, whether that's social, physical, spiritual, economic, et cetera, provides conditions that nurture the lifelong learner. And so at the core of an indigenous learner is their spiritual, emotional, and physical mental dimensions of a Métis self and identity. And these integrational knowledge systems are values that are passed through generations, yeah, and influences the individual's development from learning from the community or the family, the institutions, as I mentioned before. And as well like the impact of the early learning compared to adulthood is just dynamic interplay of informal and formal language, as well as the impact of having elders there that hold a whole whack of knowledge and give that to the learner in a new way that other people in the community don't. I found that that was really impactful, and the respect and the, yeah, knowledge and the wisdom that the elders carried that they gained through experience and through the land and over time. And another thing I found interesting was through reading Little Bear's insight from Jake Giddlewold's view colliding is that indigenous people are confronted with split identity. And this is due to the clash of worldviews between indigenous and Western paradigms. And they are not fully indigenous, nor are they fully Western. And so this is interesting, just as the indigenous people were the settlers here first, but yet they are the ones who have to have the resilience and the fight for their culture and space as it was pushed away for so long. And so I also just found this really empowering to see how the resilience for their communities has kept so much tradition, even when the residential schools and the West has tried to push it out. So something that I thought was interesting, and it was just a connection we made, was how I also wrote on this in my reflection paper, and how the jagged worldview of those of us who do not grow up indigenous doesn't exist. So within my reflection paper, I touched on how a jagged worldview is a worldview which, as Ella just said, is not fully indigenous or fully Western, but I think is something that's kind of interesting, but also maybe crucial just for my own realizations, is that the idea that we really shouldn't have a fully Western identity either, because if we are to reach reconciliation and respect and view everyone as equal, then we need to adopt part of their worldview also, in the ways that we interact with them, and interact with really anyone and anything. And I think within that kind of worldview idea, those of us who did not grow up indigenous need to also have a jagged worldview and let our worldview be impacted by things that maybe perhaps aren't considered to be a part of the dominant society or culture. So the next question that we're going to address is issues or concepts that resonated with us, and we both have pretty similar concepts. So we're just going to go kind of one after the other. So there are two main concepts, really, that resonated with me within this course. But the first concept that I want to look at is the concept of two-eyed seeing, which we defined as seeing from one eye with the strengths of indigenous knowledges and ways of knowing, and from the other eye with the strengths of Western knowledges and ways of knowing, and to use both of these eyes together. So that was found in the article written by Saskamus et al. So in my own reflection paper, I discussed how the concept of two-eyed seeing reminds me of the inescapability of the jagged worldview. So as a result of colonialism, there can be no fully Eurocentric or indigenous worldview, as we just talked about, but rather there are only fragments of beliefs, languages, and stories left behind. So in Little Bear's article, he writes that everyone has an integrated mind, a flexing and ambidextrous consciousness, a pre-colonized consciousness that flows into a colonized consciousness and back again. According to Elders Moderna and Albert Marshall, this concept of two-eyed seeing allows for making conscious decisions to activate whichever lens is more appropriate to use, or a harmonization of both. This re-centering debases enshrined modes of colonial power and governance mechanisms and brings into question the fundamental role of the outcomes. So I believe that this concept should be implemented by everyone. Although the Western worldview is considered dominant, it should still be influenced by the viewpoints that surround it. Each worldview should be looked at through another lens, taking into account its collective surroundings. Yes, as Ellen has mentioned, this topic of two-eyed seeing has really resonated with myself as well. As well, I've talked about this throughout some other classes, and just the importance of seeing people's perspectives and that there is no one right way of seeing or doing things. And I think that that is so important to integrate into our society, as sometimes and more often than not, people take the assumption that their view or their way of doing is the best way, when sometimes it's not. And I think that that is really important and a really cool concept that the Indigenous can definitely teach us, if we are willing to listen. And also through Little Bear's work in the Jaeger's worldviews colliding, he provides this insight again, where he discusses the concepts as a means of bridging Indigenous knowledge systems with the Western science, as Ellen was mentioning. And this just emphasizes the value of seeing the world through both Indigenous and Western, as we've mentioned that there is not one dominant way that should be seen, and that both hold so much value and wisdom in that, and that there needs to be a nice way of dialogue that allows space for all voices to be heard, especially the Indigenous voice being amplified. And this just acknowledges the strengths and limitations of each, as well as it embodies a spirit of reconciliation and collaboration, recognizing the interconnectedness of all knowledge systems and the importance of learning from a diverse perspective. As well as just recognizing and acknowledging the harm that has been done, and that there was a lack of action. This is just another concept that has resonated with me, is that there can be this dialogue and there can be a way of seeing and talking about and apologizing. However, I think that there is a lack in action, as we've talked about through our classes, that there is someness of getting land back to be Indigenous, but it's not all of this land here used to be theirs. And we don't see people in the West uprooting and moving their lives to give back what was theirs. And so I think this was also another issue that I kind of wrestled with throughout the semester, is just how to turn my words and my want into actions, and what does that actually look like for our society. So I think that ties into my next issue that resonated with me, which was found in the documentary, Colonization Road, and how this film demonstrated the ways in which Indigenous communities were disrupted, forcing their ways of life and knowledge systems to adapt in order to stay afloat. The introduction of these roads interrupted the balance of the land, changing and damaging ecosystems, and the reciprocal relationship that had once existed between Indigenous communities and the land they lived on. The roads created access to land for the foreign settlers and displaced those that were previously living peacefully on their own property. So obviously, the impact of loss of land had impacts across various different levels. So on the cultural level, it destroyed ties to sacred ancestral sites, territory, and access to knowledge and education systems, and it endangered the lives of many people as they were cut off from their resources, their homes, and their families. This jeopardized their communication of their own knowledge systems, and they lost the ability to perform their own ways of governing and knowing. This led to an erosion of identity and a lack of autonomy, which is almost a complete loss of Indigenous identity, or the complete loss and replacing it with Jagan identities. So this lack of autonomy was signified as the roads became the signifier of the expansion of colonial power. This foretold the disruption of their own governing systems with the imposition of Western government policies. So within all of these many issues, I think that the main issue that really stuck out to me was how this is still so relevant today, how many Indigenous communities are on boil, like water, watch, and recommendation, and how there's still so much work to be done in order to reach any amount of reconciliation. Okay, so our next question is, how has the course developed our understanding of Indigenous perspectives in ways that will be helpful for our life and chosen profession? And so for me, when looking at the Macabre article, he advocates for a holistic approach to health that acknowledges the interconnectedness of mind, body, emotions, and spirit. And this approach recognizes that true healing involves addressing all aspects of an individual's well-being. And I have really enjoyed reading and learning more about this as it is connected with some of my other classes. And more specifically, my health psychology class, where we discussed a video by a physician who was fed up with seeing a problem in individuals that no medicine would cure, or if it did, another symptom would appear. So she dedicated time to research and found that the answer is not outside of oneself, but whether inside and looking to one's body and mind and soul and heart. She states that the body speaks to us in whispers, and if we ignore it, it will start to yell at us. And this became disconnected. Oh, it's when we become disconnected from ourselves that we become ill. And what matters and what is important is the well-being of our relationships, a healthy work life, having a creative outlet, our spiritual connection, a healthy sex life, what our finances look like, our environment around us, and are we mentally healthy and nurturing our body. And so this just reminded me of the holistic approach of the indigenous cultures that we came to know throughout our class. The importance of attending to one's spiritual, mental, and psychological needs before turning to medicine, as well as the importance of interacting and relying on community for support when times get tough. And when looking at how the courses developed my understanding in ways of my profession in the future of either counseling or social work, it has opened my eyes to the importance of understanding their background and the hardships that they have endured and the generational trauma that has been placed upon them to ensure that I'm meeting clients with trauma-informed care and being culturally sensitive to not bring up trauma that one is not ready to process yet. Another big aspect of the class is the importance of listening. It was said over and over that there's a reason that people were given two ears and one mouth, and this is so we can learn and listen more than we should talk. And this is so important to do, especially as a white counselor in the future, as I do not want to put my biases or impose my thoughts or opinions on them, as that has been done to them their whole lives. They need to know that their voice matters and it counts, and these ideas are found virtually important to implement into my life, and I will continue to do so in my practice moving forward to ensure that people have the autonomy and their respect and dignity, as that is the first and most important code of ethics. And when in the helping profession, it is important to understand that everyone has a story and no one is better or less, as well as there is a great importance of meeting someone where they are at. So on a very similar note, something that really stood out to me within this class was the way in which respect, reciprocity, and relationships play such a large role in Indigenous knowledge and Indigenous ways of life. I think the Western way of living is very individualistic, and the goal is often to further oneself versus furthering the well-being of an entire community. Although taking care of yourself is important, I believe that the interaction with one's community and surrounding is not valued or respected near as much as it should be. Specifically, in Little Bear's article, he discusses the way in which the Western culture is very individualized, ultimately suppressing the diversity of humanity. In contrast, he discusses how Aboriginal language creates an equal space for all voices to be heard and valued, rather than promoting a hierarchical value system. He writes that Aboriginal language allows for the transcendence of boundaries. For example, the categorizing process in many Aboriginal languages does not make use of the dichotomies either, or black, white, saint, sinner. There is no animate, inanimate dichotomy. Everything is more or less animate. Within this, respect is given for inanimate and animate things. However, it seems like it pushes further past respect and makes it into something that is relational as well. Therefore, any interaction with absolutely anything or anyone is categorized almost in a way of treating someone or something as how you would want to be treated. It evens out the playing field while maintaining diversity. Harmony and community is promoted through this as it creates reciprocal relationships where the betterment of all involved is the focus. Therefore, one's identity is often created in regards to the formation of the community. Through colonization, indigenous communities have been stripped of their language, knowledge systems, and access to land. Thus, these communities have been forced to the outskirts of dominant culture where they are either overlooked or abused. My goal for the future is to become a lawyer, providing a voice for those that are often overlooked and marginalized. Within this, I want to use my ability to communicate to ensure that the language we use reflects and respects all things, whether animate or inanimate. Within my profession and within my life in general, I want to adopt the quality of all view of self, meaning that everyone and everything I interact with deserves the amount of respect and care that I would give myself. I believe that these three concepts, respect, relationship, and reciprocity, will lead to the opportunity to reach reconciliation, whether implemented in the legal system, with clients, communities, or just with myself. In order for true reconciliation to be reached, I think that these concepts need to be integrated into every aspect of life. On the nonprofessional side, I think that these concepts will allow me to curate healthier and long-lasting relationships with the things that surround me on a daily basis. My goal is to view things around me as equal to me. I think we are so used to an economy that exploits for further personal or societal gain, and this class has demonstrated to me how harmful that was and still is. Okay, so question five is, how has the course developed our understanding of Indigenous ways of knowing and being in current social and political Indigenous and settler relationships? So I kind of looked at this through the Colonization Road film, and this film provided historical context on the impact of colonization on Indigenous communities, including the establishment of colonial infrastructures such as roads and railways. And this history serves as a foundation for understanding of present-day Indigenous settler relationships. And by this film exploring how colonization has led to the disposition and forced relocation of Indigenous peoples and territories, this has opened my eyes to the mistreatment that was done and is still being done today. Understanding these historical injustices is crucial for acknowledging the Indigenous sovereignty of land and rights today. This film also shed light on the ongoing impacts of colonization on Indigenous communities, including social, economic, and health disparities. By examining these disparities, we can better understand the systemic barriers that Indigenous people face still today. The Colonial Road serves as a call to action for viewers to engage in decolonization efforts to support Indigenous-led movements for justice and reconciliation. It challenges us to confront our movements or our compliancy in colonial systems and work towards meaningful change. As well as Tracey Bear's commentary on elders, Bear highlights the importance of reciprocal relationships in Indigenous protocols wherein respect, generosity, and mutual support are foundational. And these relationships extend beyond just human interaction to include relationships with one with the land, the animals, and spiritual beings, all taken into effect in these relationships. And Bear also suggests that honoring Indigenous protocols is essential for reconciliation and healing. And by restoring traditional practices and protocols, Indigenous communities reclaim agency and strengthen cultural resilience in the face of ongoing colonialism. I think also when Bear suggests that honoring Indigenous protocols is so essential, I think it also comes back to the Jagged worldview and how we need to allow our own worldview to be interacted with and shaped by and changed by the people that we are surrounded by. And I think it needs to come to the point where there is no dominant culture, which I know is such a big, unreachable thing almost. But I think it has to be to the point where we're all viewed as equal within that reciprocal kind of relationship that's full of respect. Also, another film that we looked at was The Inconvenient Indian, which was taken from Thomas King's book. And I think something that was super interesting to me within that was how the celebration of Canada's 150th anniversary was brought up in the film and how it was depicted from the dominant culture and then the Indigenous culture and how different those celebrations were and what they meant, because one was really not a celebration, because it's really just a celebration of the success of colonialism. And I just think it just shows how fractured the relationship still is and how much work there still needs to be done. And I think it demonstrates that because there's a lack of respect, value, acknowledgement, and even inclusion, the relationship will continue to be so fractured. And within that, it is far from being reconciled. So I think this class has equipped us with the knowledge to take steps towards hopefully one day reaching proper reconciliation. Okay, so now we're going to move into questions or challenges that arose for us kind of within this class and regarding indigeneity. So for me, it was kind of like now that I know about indigeneity, because prior to this class, I didn't know what indigeneity was. It's kind of like, where do I go from here? What do I do now? Although I do feel like I gained a lot of knowledge and information within this class, I feel like it is the tip of the iceberg. And although I have an understanding, this understanding is very basic. And so although I feel like I've reached knowledge that I didn't have before, I feel like there's still so much to learn. So I think really for me, like a challenge is to just keep researching and to keep accessing information so that I continue to understand and work towards educating myself further so that I can become an advocate within my own life and within my professional life for someone. And an advocate just for more of the quality of all voices. And I think within that, I think that leads into like, how can I become an advocate for the recognition of indigeneity? Because I think like the majority of us within this class would not have known what that was prior to taking it. And so how does this become common knowledge? And how do you educate mass groups of people, and specifically like colonial, like Canada into being able to like educate to work towards reconciliation so we know the things that make up indigenous ways of knowing and seeing. And I think maybe perhaps like one of the challenges is like how overwhelming it is because it seems like there's still like so much work to be done. And maybe it's encouraging that we can be a part of it. But also, in what way can we be a part of it? Yeah. So just as Ellen has kind of gone off with this question, I also feel, yeah, it was a tough question to kind of wrestle with just because I feel like their indigeneity is so beautiful in the way that one expresses. And it's no different than how one expresses their heritage. However, it is seen in our culture as something that is different. And that is, as history has proven, not allowed to be represented. And so I think that that fine line and that broad line between expressing oneself, but also it being restricted in the past is so difficult. And I think that that is definitely something that needs to be worked on and changed in our society is just allowing one to express their indigeneity in whatever setting they feel like it because that is who they are at their core. And it's not something that they should cover up with a mask or pretend to be something else or to fit in with mainstream society because mainstream society should include them and their culture. And so this was a big challenge that kind of arose that I had. And also a question is just as to like why. I had a classmate who identified as indigenous and she didn't share until near the end of our class that she didn't identify because of that was something she didn't share with people because she didn't want people to view her differently or to look at her differently. But it was such a big part of her heritage and her life growing up and just the reciprocality that our class had to her. It was really beautiful to see just the questions that came out of it. And I think that that is something that needs to happen on a large scale and not just in a class that's talking about indigenous or identity that it needs to be something that is just made culturally aware and known. And I think that, yeah, as Ellen was saying, just to help create that equality across the board. But, yeah, how do we go about that? That is definitely a challenge. But I think it just starts with each one of us as an individual to just be open to those hearing those stories and to listen to their experiences and their stories. A story can tell a thousand words and it's so impactful. Okay. So lastly, we're going to just discuss what advice we would give if a friend was planning to take this class. So firstly, because the course isn't necessarily lecture-based, I mean, if I could recommend anything specific, I would say that like to go in with more knowledge than perhaps I did. So researching things before, having sort of a basic understanding so that you can contribute to the earlier discussions. Because although I found the discussions beneficial, I don't think I felt like I necessarily had like a breadth of knowledge to really like draw off of or contribute. And so I didn't feel like I could really add anything meaningful to like opening discussions. So because it's not necessarily lecture-based, I think students need to engage with the course materials that are given to you, specifically the readings that are provided within the syllabus. I found that those were super helpful just to further knowledge and to greater understand what we were talking about in class. I found most of my learning came from reading indigenous authors and then also through this finding out how to access indigenous authors is really important. So I think things like iPortal were great to just have like one sort of database that you could draw off of that you knew was reliable was super helpful and is something that like we have access to once we leave this course, which I think is really encouraging. So really, I found that that was where most of my learning came from, and it was really important to learn from authors that were writing on their various practices and experiences, which allowed them to share their own knowledge and really, yeah, like broaden our own horizons through that. And I think another thing was the films were very interesting, like portrayal of like such hard experiences. And I think the films allowed us to learn from a different like visual way to observe rather than just to listen, which I thought was very helpful. So I think really my main like source of advice from this perspective is just to engage within what you're given. Yeah, and I think for me, it would be referring a friend would just be to tell them to go in with an open mind and that there will be diverse perspectives that might go against your preconceived notions or stereotypes, but just allow those walls to be broken and that that's okay because learning often happens in discomfort. And just to embrace that, yeah, because growing often is hard and it's difficult, but that's what creates change. And so through engaging in the material and letting yourself be open, you will gain like a deeper understanding and even have personal transformation of just learning what it is to be holistic in your well-being or learning what it is to have two eyes seeing in a conversation and how to listen more than to talk. And I think that those are practical ways just to carry on throughout our lives and into the next chapter of just continue to research, continue to learn, as Ellen was saying, to use those resources that we have to further our knowledge to, yeah, just to keep digging deeper into what it is to be Indigenous and just how best we can support them and to really just, yeah, make them feel inclusive and that they have a voice and that they have a spot in the society that has often pushed them aside. And just, yeah, just to really center on Indigenous voices and just uplift them because this course is really or can be really impactful and I think that it's very vital to learn more about our heritage and even what Canada is and the country that we live in. Yeah, I think it provides a platform to reflect on the education that perhaps we didn't receive when we were younger. And so within that, your own beliefs, your own ways of knowing, everything will be challenged and I think that should be welcomed. And so I think like what Ellen said about going in with an open mind is super important because discomfort is okay and discomfort shows growth. And I think within that, you have to be prepared to have your mind changed and to be able to grow because if you don't, then you won't benefit from this class in the way that you could. So in conclusion, that is our podcast. Thank you for listening to how this class has impacted and shaped our current and present experiences and hopefully our future ones as well. Thank you.