A Peer Through The Barbs

This is a podcast interview where the host discusses favorite poems with his father. They talk about their introduction to poetry and the reasons for choosing certain poems. They also discuss the themes of depression and hopelessness in poetry and whether humans should understand the boundaries of the world. They touch on the idea of progress and the tendency to idolize the past. Lastly, they explore the impact of war and the anti-war sentiment in a specific poem. Welcome to A Pierce of the Barbs, an interview podcast where I, Dustin Dodman, dissect the favorite poems of those who I'm accompanied by. In this episode, I have Craig Dodman. I figured that it would only make sense to include the very person who introduced me to poetry, my father. Anyways, enough with the introduction. Hey Dad, how are you? Hello my boy, doing all right, how are you? I'm okay, just, you know, on the weekend, you know. College weekend, hosting a podcast, all right. Anyway, now onto the first question. What first introduced you to poetry? Good question, I think, like I've kind of always had some dealings with poetry, you know, like school you probably have like some readings of some random poems. I remember probably like my first real exposure, like consistent with that, one teacher, I think she was like grade seven, they would give us like poems to read through and highlight themes in, and like. Oh wow, yeah. The teacher was a little bit, very, she had high standards, and she would give us like a few poems each night that we'd have to do, so it was a lot of work, and it was actually really kind of tiresome, but I ended up enjoying it over time. That's funny, that's almost what I've got this year. Well, there you go. My teacher's really into poetry, but of course, this wasn't the first year I was really introduced to poetry, because in homeschool, well, for the listener, I was in homeschool years prior to this year, and I, my dad taught me, so yeah. Get that slow bit of exposure, bit by bit, and all of a sudden you're kind of interested in it. Yeah, it's funny, because it really makes sense to do this episode, the first episode of A Peer Through the Barbs, about you, because, you know, you were the guy that got me into this, so. Well, it's not every day that I get invited to a podcast, so I appreciate it, so. No problem, Dad. Anyway, without any further ado, let's do question number two. We have many, so, was there any reason for you to pick the poems that you did pick? I'm going to be completely honest, no. No? No. I basically went through an anthology that I had and tried to pick, I picked a few that I just kind of always liked, that I read, maybe not at your age, but kind of early-ish on into my reading, so it was like, reasonably accessible, that I knew you could find online, and just, that I liked, and that I thought would be good, because there's a lot of other things that I, like, if you were to ask me my favorite, favorite poems, it would be kind of hard to do, because it would be like, oh, read these 12 books by this one author. Oh my god. It's like an ongoing. Yeah, I did a lot. Like, even the one by Eliot is a longer poem, I was considering not saying to do that, because I didn't want to. Yeah. I kept it in, though, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really enjoyed it. It's a, you know, I tried to give, like, at least a bunch of different poems, even though, like, they might be, have some similarities, like, I think they are kind of very, very different approaches to writing poetry, so I tried to give you some kind of variety. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. I really enjoyed reading through it. Yeah, as much as you can probably enjoy them. Yeah, they're maybe not the most upbeat, maybe, but. Yeah, no. I noticed some common themes of depression, hopelessness, and emptiness in them. Were these intended by you, or were they simply just common themes in poetry itself? I thought you were just such an upbeat kid, I was trying to, like, rain on your parade, you know, I was trying to bring you down a peg. Not really, like, I think, like, I think poetry is a really good vehicle for tackling those things. It's not necessarily, like, oh, poets are all depressed. I think, like, for people who are, like, seeking poetry out, like, most people aren't looking to get poetry, like, passively and to, like, kind of just, like, enjoy it without, like, thinking about it and being critical and, like, being kind of uncomfortable. It's a necessarily kind of uncomfortable craft. Yeah, it is. It's really pushing yourself to say something different or in a tricky way or, you know. So, like, yeah, I think you can kind of, like, focus on subjects that are really uncomfortable that people may rather just kind of not think about and kind of confront. So, some of those things are, yeah, definitely a part of, like, kind of some trends that I guess you can probably find in a bunch of poems. So, just probably just some biases, you know, like, just tends to be certain kinds of poems and anthologies that are, you know, monumentally, you know, like, especially that time. I think all the poems that you kind of picked out of it were around World War II. So, not a lot to be super upbeat about, but. Yeah. Yeah, not really. But, you know, some pretty heavy subjects, but, yeah. Now, without any further introduction. So many further ado's, my goodness. I know, I know. There's lots of ado, you know. Much ado about something, yes. I know. Much ado about a father and son talking about our passions. Anyway, let us discuss the first poem, The Snowman. The Snowman is a 1921 poem by Wallace Stevens, October 2nd, 1879 to August 2nd, 1955. In the poem, there seems to be, at least from my perspective, an understanding of the boundaries of the world we live in. The boundary that Stevens outlines in the poem is that there are two types of nothing. As he puts it, there is nothing that is not there and nothing that is. Do you think that we, as a species, should try to understand the boundaries of the world? Why or why not? That's a pretty big question. I think there's no, there's really no way for people not to kind of try and understand the boundaries of the world. So, like, yeah, there's a lot in that, but there's something about language. Language is fundamentally about something called taxonomies, how we divide things, how we categorize things. Yeah, like, learning about those boundaries and, like, kind of, like, thinking about how, like, you know, Stevens has the nothing that is and the nothing that isn't. Those are two different things, but we might use the same word for it. And it's kind of weird because, like, in terms of, like, a taxonomy, those would be divided. Those would be, like, a separate thing. But, yeah, so, it's... It's a different subspecies. Yeah, and, like, most people, like, Stevens talks about, like, there's, like, a deep sadness in, like, a wintery scene. You know, like, there's, like, something missing, kind of. Most people would just feel that, maybe, and, like, not think about it. But, like, he dissects it and, like, like we were saying, like, he goes further. He gets into an uncomfy, like... He kind of understands the taxonomy of the world. Yeah, and that's Stevens. Wally Stevens, man. He's really... Wally Stevie. Wally S, man. Much of what he writes about is about the imagination and how you perceive the world and stuff like that and has some really cool, funky things. Yeah. You know, you might not think of, like, having, like, a real... I don't know. Like, poetry can do a lot of different things. And for Stevens, it, like, can actually reshape your perceptions of things, which is what he's doing here. There are people I don't know that he might, like, go to poetry for, but he can do that. It's interesting. It's very different. It's not comfy a lot of times. It's kind of jarring and uncomfortable, which is... Yeah. You know, a lot of people might feel that sadness if they're in a wintery scene and just not understand it. It's just, oh, it's just... Yeah. I just can't wait for spring. And they might... It brings things to words. And that's what poetry does. Yeah. Literally. Yeah. So it's exactly that, yeah. Cool. Okay. I'm a little bit branched out. Anyway, we humans have already broken the boundaries that formerly confined us. An example of this is that humans left the earth and landed on the moon. Do you think that we should try to break past the boundaries that define our very existence? Why or why not? I don't think that you can stop it. Like, I think it's kind of just a very, like... Yeah. It's just human function. Yeah. It's just like very creative and, like, you know, just we tend to try to evolve and shift and, you know, push boundaries. I think there's, like, probably some things that people might not want to try and push past, but, like, from, you know, different, either moral or practical standpoints. But, yeah, it's like kind of just a general thing. It's probably always going to be a tendency, I think, we have. I wouldn't say, like, human nature, but I think it's just kind of, like, things that we want to do generally. There's a tendency towards trying to branch out and push past boundaries, so. I've even viewed this sort of human tendency to evolve and strive for better. And I think that's something that's unique to us, you know. I've voiced this around you before, of course, but do you agree with that? Is that just me? Or, like, is this really a facet of the human condition in some way? Like, that we try to push further and evolve more and progress? Well, yeah, like, I think it's maybe, like, a little unfair to compare, like, human evolution. Like, not biological evolution, but, like, social and, like, archaeological evolution, kind of, like, compared to, like, other species. Because, like, you know, they're just different. Like, they're clearly not, like, we're just built different, you know. Yeah, we're built different. We literally have, like, you know, we're able to, like, abstract things and create language and have, we got our, those big, juicy frontal lobes in our ears. Frontal lobes, yeah, frontal lobes. Yeah, it seems to be something that's just kind of a matter of our, yeah, again, I don't generally like to say human nature, but just the effect of our biology and our social conditioning, yeah, we tend to always try to do that. So, it's probably a good thing. Yeah, it's good and bad, because there is a point of no return. And also, there's bad things that come with change always, like, with industrialization and everything amazing and awesome that's come along with that, like, cars and cell phones and better quality of life. There's also the world sort of deteriorating around us and all the natural resources. Yeah, it's like, not to say that, like, it's the only way that it could have been, but it's the way that it is, and that's what we have to deal with now, so. Wow, well, damn. All right, well, it's the Snowman's discussion concluding. The second poem is here, The Hollow Men. The Hollow Men is a 1925 poem by modernist poet T.S. Eliot. 126, 1888 to the 4th of January, 1965. In The Hollow Men, there's a discussion of a time in which people are afraid of the future to the extent that they idolize the past. I believe that now, 98 years later, this still applies well. I say this because I find myself idolizing the past. I collect records, I listen to music from eras far before mine, and I research history to a borderline obsessive degree, for someone who's not yet in university, at least. Do you agree that a lot of people currently seem to idolize the past? Why or why not? Yeah, like, I don't think that's, like, new or different. I think it's just, like, maybe our ability to do so is more, because, like, we can capture the past more. Yeah, more records. Yeah, more technology, more different ways to experience it. Like, the amount that we produce, like, materialistically, can also, like, double down, because, like, you know, I'm like, oh, yeah, it's just, everything's, like, starting to be styled like the 90s or 80s or whatever, you know? So, like, you have, like, whole, just themes of, like, nostalgia. Whole synthetics of time. Yeah, or, like, maybe, like, back in the past, like, people would just have, like, some photos and be like, I was, like, in the good old days, back in the 1820s. Before we had carriages and horses. There wasn't that much of a progression, also. I feel as though, again, to bring up the industrial revolution, it's sort of, I feel as though the industrial revolution sort of accelerated our growth and made that, like, different times different. Yeah, like, definitely. It's, like, the amount that we've been able to develop technology because of industrialization. Just, yeah, necessarily it kind of just kind of increases and kind of exponential increase, almost. I think it's really interesting to live in the time that we're in now because we can look back and see all the time before us and, like, we can actually, we have some basis for where our current growth might lead. Like, to explain more tangibly what I mean by this, when the industrial revolution was first, like, starting, you had no reference point for what this amount of, like, technological growth could lead society to, right? Yeah. That's all, I just think it's cool. Yeah, it's pretty, you know, one of the things about being human is being able to, like, pattern recognition of things, so you can kind of be like, hey, this might do this in the future because this happened in the past. Yeah, it's like Of Mice and Men. You ever read that? I actually have not, to be honest. Oh! Like, I know generally, like, kind of the plot. Damn, okay. Yeah. Good book. Messed up. Very messed up. Yeah. Yeah, pretty rough. Pretty rough. Anyway. What conditions do you believe have to be in place for people to look to the past like this? I don't know if there's really any conditions where it wouldn't happen, really. Like, you know, I think the more unpleasant the current times, maybe, the more likely people are going to be to really strive towards, like... Yeah. You can think about... Well, you can always, yeah, you can always, like, idolize, like, and, like, glorify the past and, like, sanitize it from all the bad things that were happening in it, you know, so... Fair. Yeah, which happens broadly and probably not to great effect sometimes, so... What do you believe to be different from our current societal turmoil and the turmoil which is reflected in The Hollow Men? Hmm. Huh. Ah, a good question. Like, there are, like, a lot of similarities, like, economic precarity is definitely a huge one. I feel like... Definitely. Oof. Housing crisis, cough it off. Like, there's different, like, global political, like, crises. Like, it's not... I don't know that it's necessarily, like, because, like, I think we're probably in a better political position generally, like, for Western countries. Yeah. Not by much, but... Well, things were, like, super uncertain back then. Like, America wasn't really, like, the superpower. Although, I guess Elliot was writing it in England, right? It wouldn't be... He wasn't, like, American, I don't think. I'm pretty sure, at least. Yeah. But, yeah, like, the thing that is definitely different, like, technology has completely, like, transformed lives. Technology is a big one. Yeah, so it's, like, there's a whole other bunch of cascading effects that come from that. Oh, gosh. People can feel... There's a bunch of mental health issues that come from, like, technology use. So, yeah, like, there's a lot of similarities, but there's definitely some issues. That's a bold statement. What's that? To say that mental health issues come from technology use. I wouldn't say it comes from, but I think it can kind of get amplified by it, yeah. I think there's... I've at least come across some data on that. Yeah, like, there's, like, data about, like, self-esteem and usage of social media and stuff like that. I haven't, like, really, like, dug into it or anything, but, like, there's, like, a general consensus on that. But that could be just a conjecture on my point, I suppose. But, yeah, there's definitely, like, big social differences and some similarities, too, between the two times. All right. Well, wow, we got through this quite quickly. I did not think that we'd zip through that fast. But we're on the third and final poem now, Dulce et Decorum Est. Dulce et Decorum Est was a 1917 poem by Wilford Owen, March 18th, 1893 to November 4th, 1918. He was a soldier in World War I and died shortly before the war ended. In Dulce et Decorum Est, there's a point made that war is not a fitting thing to die for. There was a certain point in my life where I felt as though Canada was a good thing to fight and die for. Through time, that notion has become less prevalent, with the reading of this poem being the complete end of it. Did this poem affect your view in the same way it affected mine? For sure. Like, I think I probably never really had, like, a particularly positive perspective on war. And, like, I wouldn't say that, like, there's no wars. Like, you know, that's a big claim to say that, like, no war is, like, good to fight. Because, yes, on the one hand, because they're brutal, dehumanizing, like, horror shows that span possible countries. So, like, no war is good to have, but, like, at the same time, like, trying to stop something like the Holocaust is, like, a good thing. So, it's like, I think, like, the thing is that, especially thinking about, okay, like, Owen is writing a poem, okay? And I think, like, we live in a very, like, anti-war time. And it's hard to, like, understand, like, these poems are often written in with, like, a history and, like, a, you know, like, a lineage. So, like, poems were often very pro-war. Like, there's plenty of poems that were, like, would sing the praises of soldiers and, like, would sing the, yeah, like, it's pretty common, like, to, like, glorify things. Like, you know, like, to, you know, sing the praises of the country or, like, you know, just to raise morale or to, like, talk about, you know, like, there's, like, a myth-making element to it, to, like, write a poem about, like, a battle or something like that. Like, there's, like, like, that's, like, the title of the poem is, like, a Latin phrase, like, saying, it was, like, it was a phrase, you know? It's, like, it's a phrase, it's, like, a cliche. It was used so much that it was meant to be, like, something to really establish, you know, like, a belief in the country and a belief in the war efforts. And it's from Latin times. So, it was, like, from, passed down from all those generations, right? To, like, for a poem to, like, not just, like, be anti-war, but, like, to, like, viscerally kind of, like, describe, like, the inhuman horrors of it and to do it in a really good way. It's, like, it is trying to fight against that lineage of, like, poems that would, like, be kind of pro-war or, like, would represent war efforts in a positive light. Like, you know, there's no individual soldiers that are really benefiting from the war. It's, like, other people might, you know, like. Yeah. But, yeah, it's, like, kind of trying to really fight against a history there, so. Yeah, fair. Wow, okay. It's powerful. It's a complicated question, right? Because, like, yeah, I definitely, there's a lot of wars, especially, like, you know, modern times, there's a lot of wars that are, like, probably not really, didn't need to be fought, like, by the same time, like, you know. Yeah, like, Vietnam. Yeah, at the same time. Like, go over there and not lose. Yeah, like. It's just, as a side note, it is so funny to me that America just lost to Vietnam. Yeah, well. Like, they're supposed to be, like, this big, powerful thing, and yet they still, somehow, try to keep up that reputation of being big and powerful, even though they lost. Yeah, I know. They're trying to, like, actually assault a completely sovereign country on the other side of the world. It's pretty difficult, you know. Yeah, it's tough to get all the supplies over there. And they just have certain advantages to, like, be resistant, you know. It's, like, same with the Ukrainian-Russian War, you know. Ukrainians, like, you know, they're just, they're dug in, and they have home advantage where they can kind of, like, regroup as they need, and they're tough as nails, so they're just not giving up, so. Yeah, yeah. Fair, yeah. Oh, man. Well, why do you think society glorifies war in the first place? Ah, that's a good question. Again, big question with a lot of, like, connective points. I think, like, it can be thought of as, it can be glorified for a few different reasons, right? Like, it does take bravery to go into war, right? Like, it does take, you have to be, you have to have certain qualities to, like, really go in and fight for something that you believe in, even if what you believe in is maybe not perfectly well founded. Like, I don't, like, fault any war veteran who, like, maybe went to NAM or something, right? It's a matter of, like, the organizing forces that might not, might be doing it without their best interest, you know? Like, there's a, there's a very terrible tendency for people to fund wars and then not fund veterans when they come back with missing limbs. It's, like, kind of messed up. Yeah, terrible. It's, like, you know, I don't have nothing against any troops or anything, so it's, like, there's different qualities. Like, you can be, you can glorify those soldiers, but trying to, like, stay critical of the actual, kind of, thing driving it is hard to do at the same time. So, and also, you know, like, people don't want to feel bad about their country, right? Like, it's the same thing with, like, why people go to read poetry. Like, people, poetry's not a popular thing. It's a very niche, small thing because it does tend to make you face things that are maybe not comfortable and, like, trying to, it's easy to just be, like, yeah, my country's probably not doing anything shady, right? And then it's, yeah, just moving on, you know? So, and then, you know, nuance is pretty rough. It's not exactly the most common thing these days, so it's, like, all or nothing. America's, or Canada or whatever country is the best there ever was and never did anything wrong. Never did anything wrong. I'll never hear anything about anything else, you know? Yeah. It's, like, yeah, it's a very all or nothing tendency, so. Sure. Yeah. Damn. Okay. Again. Just, wow. Rough. I think you may have touched upon this a little bit earlier, but was there really never a time in your life where you glorified war at all? Like, like, sure. Like, I guess, like, maybe, like, when I was, like, pretty young, you know, just, oh, it's so cool to, like, you know, go and, like, fight for something, but, like, I don't think it was too long that I, you gotta also, like, think, like, I was, what, maybe 11? 11. 9-11 happened? Yeah, just when you're misguided. Well, like, yeah, like, 9-11 was a pretty big event for my generation, and, like, it was pretty clear things were not super legit. Yeah. You know, like, and it didn't play out very well, and it's continued to have pretty terrible consequences, and that's, like, really, like, like, you know, that was, like, kind of one of the things that kind of picked off my, like, attention to politics and stuff like that, so, yeah, it wasn't, yeah, it was not long for me to be, and I think, like, I was just kind of, like, always kind of, you know, any, any, like, attention I ever gave to, like, you know, World War II and stuff like that or World War I, it was, like, oh, that's pretty terrible, let's, we should probably just not do that, like. No, just not do that, yeah. You know, again, I get it, like, that's not to say that you, again, like, you know, countries just trying to just, like, take other countries nearby, it's, like, probably can't let that slide, but. Yeah. It's also not, like, something to be glorified, you know, so it's just a bad thing on all fronts. Yeah. It seems like a lot more wars tend to be made up, like, you know, like, the Ukraine war is not made up, it's, like, there's one country that's an aggressor and the other that's just defending, and they need to do that, and I hope for the best, you know, like, I really do feel for them, and I think they're brave for doing it, and, but I think a lot of wars do tend to be kind of just, like, coordinated by people who are trying to get resources, which I don't think you or I have ever seen any benefit from that, so, yeah. Rich businessmen. Probably use some of that funding for, you know, like, things that we need. Yeah. Actually. But, yeah. All right. Final question for the day. Do you think that it's possible for our world to be ridden, like, or not ridden, but for war to end, or to stagnate, or to stop in some way, like, or is this just another thing that we'll have to deal with forever, having, with having a society, you know? Uh, no. Wait, what? Like, yeah, no, I can't really see, you know, like, world peace just being, like, a thing, Okay. Super, yeah. Not to be too pessimistic, but hey. Yeah, fair. Okay. I don't blame you for that viewpoint. There's always going to be some instigators, some, there's always going to be some jerk. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I don't know. Oh, damn. Yeah, I don't know. It's just, it's rough, but that's not. Yeah, that's rough. Well, it was rough at the beginning, and rough at the middle, and rough at the end. Thank you for coming on my podcast. It was very interesting to look through your thoughts and your poems, so. My poems? They ain't my poems. Well, they're just your favorite poems. I like them, yeah. I skipped a word, okay. Okay, my bad. It's okay, it's okay. All right, best of luck to you in all of your endeavors, Dad. All of my endeavors? What is this? I don't know, man. Is this a job interview? It's a business email, okay? Ah, I appreciate it. That's what it is now. Thank you very much for the opportunity, sir. All right. All right. Have a good one. You too, kiddo. Love you. Love you, too. Bye. Bye. To summarize this episode of The Pierce of the Barbs, we studied some of my father's favorite poems, The Snowman, The Hollow Man, and Dulce de Coromés. We talked about themes of knowledge submerging your head in the sands of the past and what it means to sacrifice your life for your country. Finally and foremost, may all of your ambiguities meet their rightful ends. Truly, I wish the best of luck to you, listener. And don't forget, be Barbarous!