Anne Glenconner to edit

Lady Anglin Connor discusses her views on money and her upbringing in a wealthy family. She talks about her mother's resourcefulness and her own experiences working to earn money. She believes that money does not buy happiness, but it can make difficult times more bearable. Lady Anglin Connor also shares her experiences with the royal family, including being a Maid of Honour at Queen Elizabeth II's coronation. She discusses her admiration for Prince Charles and his dedication to causes such as climate change and the Prince's Trust. She also briefly mentions her understanding of sex, which was introduced to her by her mother at a young age. Overall, she expresses gratitude for her life and the opportunities she has had. testing, testing. Yes, I think it's jumping up and down. Is it? Yeah. Yes, because it would be disastrous if nothing was recorded. Wouldn't it? Ready? Yes, absolutely. Lady Anglin Connor, thank you so much for appearing on Late Fragments. We're going to start, if that's okay, with money. Right, absolutely. Because you were born outwardly into a life of great privilege. Your father was the Earl of Leicester, and your family seat the magnificent Holcombe Hall in Norfolk. How did you view money when you were growing up? Well, we never had any, because my father was a regular soldier. And we followed, I mean, we went to various places that my parents were at. And I always remember, I mean, they were always slightly worried about money. And I knew at a very early age, because I was a girl, that I wasn't going to inherit Holcombe. And so my mother was extraordinary, actually, because she, even when we went to school, boarding school, when we came back for the holidays, we always had jobs. And one of my jobs was to air the Leicester Codex, which is Leonardo's beautiful book on water. And I used to take it out of the butler's pantry, lick my finger, and go through the pages. And now it's, I believe, I can't remember who bought it. Bill Gates. Bill Gates, that's right. Bill Gates bought it in the end. And of course, he doesn't realise that it's covered in my DNA. So I was brought up, and then my mother started this pottery, ceramics, at Holcombe. And I was actually rather bored. I wasn't very artistic. My sister was, and my mother was. They did a lot of painting and designing. And I got more and more bored with feckling and sponging. And my mother in the end said, well, what would you like to do? Because you don't look very happy. And I said, well, I've always loved selling, because we used to have a little shop at Holcombe and sell the pottery. And so off I went in Harmony Minor, visiting all the villages and towns around the coast, and staying in traveling sales hotels. And I was the only woman and girl. I wasn't very old then. And then I also went off to America. So I always actually worked. I worked until I got married. And then I also worked with Colin, really, because he bought Mustique. And we spent 12 years there. There was no water, no electric light. And I used to work in this little school there, which was actually rather fun. And then, of course, I became Lady in Waiting. This is Margaret. And that, again, was like your park secretary, park friend. I used to go into the office, write lots of letters. So I've always done something all my life. And I've never had much money. And, of course, the awful moment came when my dear husband Colin died and left this terrible will. He left... I and my children weren't even mentioned. Our children weren't mentioned. He left everything to his valet, Kent. And I was left with very, very little money. And I thought, what am I to do? And luckily, so happened. I was having lunch in Norfolk, and it was outside. And a charming young man, who was a publisher, sitting next to me. And I thought, rabbiting on with my usual stories. And he suddenly said, have you ever thought of writing a book? I said, of course not. I'm 87. I can't type or do anything. And he said, no, that wouldn't be necessary. And I think you could record what you have to say. And we will send you somebody that could write it up every day as you do it. To my incredible surprise, my book took off and is a worldwide bestseller. I've sold nearly a million copies. And so I'm now earning my living properly for the first time. So that's money I've never had very much. And I've always really enjoyed working, doing something. You've spent most of your life around people who probably are quite wealthy, or a lot of them are. How do you see the impact that money has on people's lives? Does money buy happiness? Well, no, money does not buy happiness. It eases. I think it makes it more pleasurable, if you're having a difficult time. But I noticed so much in Mustique, because we were there for 12 years before we sold any land. And now when I go, I mean, absolutely extraordinary. I mean, it's full of very, very rich people. But I always wonder, because you never see them. I love swimming in Mustique. I used to swim in Princess Margaret. But you never see them on the beach. I think they sit up and swim in their swimming pools. And I think they're sort of nervous about everything. Great wealth is a privilege, obviously. But it's also got its downside. It does. What would you say that that downside was, if you had to try and pinpoint it? Well, I think, in a way, I noticed, not that Princess Margaret was very wealthy or rich. But people behave differently around people who've got a lot of money, or great wealth, or big houses. I noticed how people behaved around her. You know, they sort of alter. And they're not themselves. And Princess Margaret minds about that. But I think, you know, sometimes, I mean, for instance, I've just been to America to promote my new book, Whatever Next. And I was taking my lovely daughter-in-law, and we were travelling premium economy. We just sat in our seats. And then I suddenly saw one of the stewards come waltzing down the aisle. And he knelt in the aisle by me. He said, Oh, Lady Glencollar, I've read your books. You know, I'm a gay person. And what you've done for the gay community is amazing, writing about your son who had AIDS. Would you like to travel first class? And I said, absolutely, I would. And so he took us up to the front of the airplane, where there are only eight seats, first class in American Airlines. And we had a sort of mini room to ourselves. It was absolutely marvellous. And then he said, let me know when you're coming back. Because if I have somebody in the crew that I know, I will try and get you upgraded again. And we got on the airplane. A very nice stewardess came and said, Are you Lady Glencollar? And I said, Yes. And she said, Well, come with me. And we will upgrade it to club. So I mean, that was lovely. I mean, if I was very, very rich, one of the first thing, actually, one thing I would really, really like is a really nice car and a chauffeur. Because I do find, I'm now nearly 91, getting around, parking, driving is a nightmare, actually. So that would be my number one treat, if I really had enough money to do that sort of thing. And so earning the money later on in your life, how has that felt? Well, it's been, I mean, I've never enjoyed my life so much. I can't tell you. It's wonderful being 90. I've had the best time ever. And what I'm so pleased about, which I didn't think, I didn't realise when I wrote my book, how much it would affect other people. I've had so many letters. And I spend an hour or sometimes two every day. I answer them all, sometimes rather briefly. But I do get letters. Actually, I've had one or two really heartrending ones from people whose children or relations are in a coma. Because I wrote very detailed about what we did with my darling son, Christopher, and his terrible accident in Belize and his gap year. And he was in a coma for about five months. And I then looked after him for about five years before he could really, you know, manage up to a point on his own. And that's amazing. I'm a gay icon in America. I was doing something for the Prince's Trust the other day. They said, would you like to know who sponsored you? So I said, yes, I'd love to know. Well, it's a gay community in Milwaukee. I've absolutely no idea where Milwaukee was. So I had to go look on the map. And when I came on, it was Zoom. I had to say, you know, hello, gentlemen, thanks so much for sponsoring me. And I think the gay, I get a lot from young gay men who say we don't dare tell our parents, can you advise us because you cope so brilliantly with your son, Henry. The thing about Henry, I don't know whether I was completely brilliant with him, because he was married to this lovely Tessa. They had a little boy. And he then suddenly decided he was gay. And I said, you know, I did say to him, darling, I wish you'd known before, because you're married. You've got darlings. And now you're leaving. You say you're gay. Anyway, Colin actually was better with him than I was. I mean, it's all right in the end. But I did feel he should have perhaps known or not got married. But anyway, I get all these letters. And I'm also an agony aunt. People write to me about etiquette. Well, I'm not quite sure I know a great deal about etiquette. But anyway, I do my best, you know. But it's so interesting that people want to communicate with one, ask one questions. And I just, I went to the Oda magazine yesterday at the lunch where I talked. And so many people came up afterwards. They're all at a certain age. And I think that the Oda's a perfect place for me to speak. But they're delightful. And they come if I'm speaking somewhere. A lot of them come a long way to hear me. So I really feel very, very humble. I'm amazed. Sometimes I think, you know, Anne, you're going to wake up and all this is not true. But luckily it is. It must be very invigorating. It is. I mean, you know, I feel a bit bossy in my latest book because I tell people how I live my life. And, you know, I was brought up quite strictly. I remember my grandmother putting a broom handle down the back of my shirt to make me sit up at meals. We always had to look at people when we talked to them and walk. We walked every day. And that's what I still do. And if I see somebody shuffling, I am tactful up to a point. I say, oh, are your feet hurting? And when they say no, I say, well, look, you must walk properly. Stop shuffling. Walk properly with your feet. And then I show them how it should be done. And the other thing which has helped me a lot is giving up supper because I used to get terrible indigestion. And anyway, I read in a newspaper somewhere that that was the new thing, new diet. So I did the same. It's just transformed my life. I don't feel hungry at all. I lost a bit of weight at first and I sort of evened out. And I always go for a walk. I always try and sit up properly. Don't sludge. And the other thing, of course, is I'm far too busy to think about being old. I mean, I never think about it. Except when sadly, which does, of course, happen to everybody at my age, you lose so many friends. And that is really sad. And all the funerals one goes to. And when I go to a funeral, I say, oh, I do like that hymn or I do like that. I come back and write it down. And my two daughters roll their eyes and say, Mum, you've got enough. Your funeral's going to take days. You'll have to cut it down. So anyway, I think we are going to cut it down. Can I ask you very quickly, because you were the Maid of Honour at Queen Elizabeth II's coronation, and we now are speaking a few days after King Charles III's coronation. Can you tell me how that was? Well, I'm so lucky to be asked to the King. I've always known the King since he was a little boy. And, of course, at Queen Elizabeth's coronation, he came in and the six Maids of Honour, we were standing just below where they were. And I remember King Charles saying to Queen Elizabeth, his grandmother, oh, what are they doing to Mummy now? And then he said, I know the crown is really heavy, because the Queen had been practising with it before the coronation. I think King Charles had been allowed to put it on for a moment. And there I remember that darling, sweet little boy. And then to go to his coronation, where he's grey and a little bit balding, but he's still wonderful. I've always loved him very much. He's an incredible person. I think he'll be an amazing King. He minds about people so much. He's got such a heart and so many interests. I mean, he's had longer to prepare than any other monarch in history. And all the things he said about climate change have all come true. People laughed at him many years ago. And he loves music. He's a great musician. He plays piano and cello. Gardens, he knows a great deal about gardens. And of course, Prince's Trust, all the young people he's helped. I went up to Dumfries House the other day when they had a festival, a book festival. And he's done a magical thing up there, because that part of Scotland was dead. There was no jobs and it was gloomy. And a very nice volunteer fetched me from the station. She drove me there. And I said to her, you know, what's it like? She said, it's magical. She said, he's completely transformed this part of Scotland. And when I was there, they showed me around. He's got all the sort of drawing schools, the schools where people do woodwork and cookery. And I mean, that's why he really minds about people. Prince Charles, King Charles, I keep on calling him King Charles. I think they were so lucky. And of course, Queen Camilla, who's lovely. She's delightful. She's got a wonderful sense of, quite a naughty sense of humour. And they're so in love. And it was so lovely at the coronation when occasionally they caught each other eye, you know, you could just see the love between them. And it was very strange for me. I had a very good seat. I was near the pulpit and I could see the pillar, because I nearly fainted during the coronation. And Black Rod, who was standing beside me, saw me swaying about and pinioned me to the pillar. He put his arm round my waist and gave me just enough time. And then when we eventually got behind the altar, the Archbishop produced a bottle of brandy, a flask of brandy. I can't remember any glasses, but it must have, you can't expect a queen to swig out. Of course, she said no. And then he said, turned to me and he said, I think you'd better have a little tot, you know, which I did. And it felt marvellous. But I mean, it was the most extraordinary day, because we were sort of attached to the Queen the whole time. I mean, she couldn't move without us. And after the service, we had lunch there, of course, coronation chicken. I don't know whether everybody had their sort of coronation quiche, which was invented for this one. But, and then going back, it reminded me so much when they came on the balcony and they were all there with lovely pages. Queen Camilla, I think, had two or three grandsons. And her sister had one was her grandson too, Annabel Elliot, who I know. She was one of the Queen's companions. And they looked wonderful, I thought. And I was so envious because they had seats to sit on. The six of us didn't. We stood and the Queen's coronation took three hours. It was quite a long time. And then when we got back, I remember, to the palace, we were waiting for the Queen. And we watched all these wonderful people come in, including Queen's ferocity. And she was dressed in a sort of red tuffle skirt and red feathers in her hair, beaming smile and soaking wet, because she refused to have the canopy put down. And when she came in, she sort of shook herself like a dog. And we had our so beautiful dressing room, so proud, inched away from her. And we saw Churchill come and then eventually the Queen came. And she took off her crown and put it on a table. And Prince Charles immediately made a beeline for it. And my mother, who was one of the Queen's ladies in waiting, would actually, which was wonderful, was part of the procession. We were the only mother-daughter in the procession. She seized it from Prince Charles. We were terrified he was going to drop it. You know, bad sign. And then the Queen had this private film made. And I saw it quite a long time afterwards. And she sort of skips along. We sort of skipped along behind her. And then she sits on the sofa and raises her feet slightly. We all did too. And she thanked us, of course. She said, you know, it all went beautifully. And there were no mistakes. I think one or two tiny ones, but nothing much. And then the Queen Mother, you know, waving, and the Duke of Edinburgh. And then behind them, Princess Margaret, looking so sad. And a long time after, I said to her, Ma'am, I saw this film, and you were looking so sad. She said, of course I was. I just lost my beloved father. My sister, now the Queen, will be too busy. I won't see her very much. And I've got to go and live with my mother. And of course, it was at the service that suddenly the press realised about Peter Townsend, because she took a bit of fluff off his jacket. And the press were haunted. And then, you know, very sad. Anyway, in the end, she didn't marry him. It's so wonderful to hear you talk about it. I know you must have talked about it so much. But it is wonderful. Because I have to. No, no, you must. I have to. We're having a little break. Do you need some water? Yes. Would you like some coffee? No, I'm very happy. Well, I'm sorry. I mean, I may not be asking. You must ask the question. But once I get going. No, I think it's the sort of thing people like to hear too. Absolutely. You just keep going. Well, no, because we've covered money. I think we covered money. I mean, my parents had no money. I mean, we were dressed by an aunt of my mother, who's quite well off. All our clothes she bought for us. It's funny, isn't it? Because people perceive. No, well, because my great-grandfather was living at Holcombe, you see. My grandfather was waiting in the wings. So my father's very far down the line. He just had his army pay. That's amazing, isn't it? You know, and so that's why. I mean, my mother was marvellous, actually. She was clever, funny, quite strict with it. I mean, she wasn't standing nonsense at all. And we did have to work even in the holidays. We had jobs of cleaning and airing the codex and things like that. Brilliant, isn't it? Are you ready to move on? Well, we're here. Sorry, move on. Yes, absolutely. Sorry. Well, where do we move on to now? Sex. What? Sex? Sex. Well, what I'll do in sex, I'll do the honeymoon. I'll do that. Do you mind? No, of course I'll do that. And, of course, what I will say that, I mean, there was no contraception. I mean, none of us slept. I mean, one or two girls. But then you knew who they were and they immediately had to get married, you know. And one or two, I'm terribly afraid so, because I have to hear when she got married. Was she? Do you know her daughter-in-law, Flemmie Hambrough, was a friend of mine, and she was pregnant when she married Orlando. It must be a fiend. Three of my daughter-in-law were pregnant. Only one wasn't. My darling Mae wasn't pregnant. Well, I wouldn't have let her lie. I mean, she's not quite, but she wouldn't have done it, you know. But anyway, it's not necessary now. I mean, they've got wonderful contraception. Moving on. Right. Shall we? Are you ready? Yeah, absolutely. Moving on to sex. Right. I believe. Right. Slightly dreading this one, but still, I'll do my best. I believe your mother introduced you to the concept of sex. Yes. It was when I went to boarding school. I was 11, and she said, darling, I've got something to tell you. So I thought, well, I wonder what. And she said, you know, when she had a dog called Biscuit, and my father, and that was a terrier, and my father had a Labrador called Willie, actually. What a funny name, but anyway, he's called Willie. And mummy said, my mother said to me, you know when Biscuit's on heat, that Willie gets on top of her, and we try, we pull them apart, because we sort of don't really want her to have any children. And the thing is that, you know, that before this happened, we noticed that blood is coming out of her bottom. And she said, well, the same thing will happen to you. And I was simply horrified, you know, thinking somebody's going to jump on me. And then she said, of course, when you get married, the same thing will happen, but you'll probably be in a bed. And that was the only thing I knew about sex. And you were a virgin when you married your husband, Colin Tennant, when you were 23? Yes, I was 23. Yes, I was, because the things we all were, except for a few girls, and we knew who they were, because there's no contraception. There was what I call very heavy petting went on, but no actual, the full thing didn't happen. And so I always remember, I had a tremendous wedding at Hoke. My father sort of treated me like a boy. We had two tents, and then our friends were in the house. One tent was the Tennant farmers and people like that. The other one was for all the workers on the estate and Colin's family home in Scotland. A busload of people who work there came down. And what was so charming, quite a lot of them had never seen the sea before. Of course, Glen is in the middle of the borders, and they'd never been to the sea. Anyway, I had three wedding cakes, and the whole thing was fantastic. My parents really pushed out the boat. And then we were going off on our honeymoon. I must say, I did feel a bit apprehensive. I remember a few tears in my mother before I absolutely went. And then we got in the car and flew off to Paris, where we were staying in Hotel Lottie. We arrived very late. I said it was about half past two or three in the morning, and there was a very small concierge behind the desk, and he took us up where we thought was going to be the honeymoon suite. Well, it turned out that it had single beds. Well, Colin had promised me on bended knee that he'd never lose his temper once we got married. He had an absolute breakdown. He screamed and shouted. And the concierge said, well, the only thing I can suggest is there is a mattress, a double mattress, in the cellar. If you would help me carry it up, we could put it over the two single beds. So down they went. I was standing in my best silk dress and high heel shoes waiting. I could hear this awful thumping coming upstairs, and everybody was woken up. They all came out of their rooms and wondered what on earth was happening. Eventually, the mattress was flung over the two beds with the concierge half under it, but he managed to get out. And then Colin lay down on the mattress and went to sleep. And I thought, God, it is my honeymoon. And so I then undressed and got, and in the morning something did happen, but it wasn't all that marvellous. And then we went off to the Louvre where we spent the day looking round. And when we got back to the hotel, Colin said, I've got a treat for you this evening. So I got dinner at the Ritz and dressed up. And I said, you know, couldn't you tell me? And he said, no, no, no, it's a secret. And in we got to the taxi. And I thought it was a bit odd because I vaguely knew where the Ritz was. We didn't seem to be going anywhere near it. We seemed to be driving somewhere that I discussed apparently. Then she arrived in this very, very seedy hotel, which in fact turned out to be a brothel. We were led up to this bedroom where there were two velvet wing-backed chairs where Colin and I sat. And on the bed was two frightfully unattractive French people having sex. And this ghastly sort of squelchy noise. And I sat back as far as I could and sort of shut my eyes. I didn't dare look to see what Colin was doing. And they kept on, the couple, saying, would you like to join in? And being quite polite, I said, it's very, very kind of you, but no, thank you. And then, thank goodness, they then left the room. And I said to Colin, why on earth did you bring me here? I mean, I thought it was absolutely awful. And I think he took me there in order to see how it really should be done, I don't know, or to excite me, because you have the opposite effect. And then we went on to Cuba. And I must say, the honeymoon did improve at that point. And our honeymoon was going to last six months, because Colin's family firm, C. Tennant & Sons, owned land in America and a factory, mining, that's right, mining. And we were going to Yellowstone Park, which was one of the mines. And rather fortunately, I became pregnant. So we had to come back early. So that was my honeymoon. In your latest memoir, Whatever Next, you delve a bit deeper into matters that you alluded to in your first memoir, Lady and Waiting. And some of the stories about your marriage are quite horrifying to read, and almost nightmarish in lots of ways. And I'm wondering why you felt you had to stay in a marriage with someone like that. Yes, quite a lot of people ask you that. The reason I wrote about it, I mean, I'd never written a book before Lady and Waiting. And I didn't like, you know, to put various things in. I felt embarrassed, really. And you do feel quite humiliated, funnily enough. And then, because of Queen Camilla, who's done so much for domestic abuse, and abuse in war, rape in war, and I felt encouraged by her. And I then had a really good talk to the children, because I wouldn't have done it if they had said, No, Mum, we'd rather you didn't. And what was wonderful about that, they then told me various stories about what their father had done to them, quite shocking, some of them. And I told them what, you know, what had happened to me. And it was absolutely great. We all talked together. And I don't know why the mood is lightened, we suddenly get on, I don't get on better, but we feel there isn't this elephant in the room, like there was, you know. I stayed in the marriage. I went back to my mother at one point, when I was expecting Charlie, because I really couldn't cope. I mean, he was, you know, really, and he was very, very disturbed. And I went back to her and I said, I don't think I can manage, Mum. And she said, Look, Anne, you've married him, you're having a baby, you go straight back. And I did for 54 years. But I could only, people write to me a lot now, and I try and advise them up to a point. But I always say, I don't, in any way, think that you should stay in a marriage that's really too difficult and awful. And I was able to really, because Colin moved back to St. Lucia. And so we didn't see each other all that much. But we always talked. He rang me up. Every day, we'd have telephone conversations. And he'd wonder what I was doing. And I asked him about what was happening. He was developing an estate in St. Lucia. I mean, that was absolutely perfect. And, you know, but otherwise, I mean, if we'd been in a marriage, like some people on a flat or something, no, I would say to people, you know, you get out, leave, it's impossible. He was, and I know it's a difficult subject, but he was violent towards you. Yes. I mean, once, you know, he killed me. And that was the moment that my mother and we said, you know, if you ever, ever do that again, I will go. But he used to do things which in a way was even more, he used to spit at me a lot. He would throw things at me. And I remember a moment at Glen, our house in Scotland, when I was coming, I was at the bottom in the hall, and he was throwing. The thing is, I always had to remain absolutely still. If I moved, it got much worse. And so I was, I just wasn't still. And he was throwing these pots at me. When down the stairs behind me came my first son, our little Christopher. He was only five, four or five. And he came whizzing down the stairs, and he said, stop it, Daddy. How dare you be so cruel to my mummy? And luckily, Colin burst into laughter and thought it was wonderful, and said to me, look at your shining knight, he's come to rescue you. So we never quite knew how Colin was going to take things, you know. But it was humiliation and never knowing when these terrible rages and various words, too, set him off. I don't know what, but he had a funny thing about wine, for some reason. And at Glen, I used to have a lot of people. We had these big, big house parties. I mean, the biggest one I had, I think we had 30 people staying with children. It was a very big house. And I used to obviously arrange all the food and everything like that. But if I asked him, oh, look, we're having fish tonight. Could I have some white wine? Absolutely blow up. I don't know whether something had happened to him in the cellar when he was a child. So I used to get round him. He used to have a temporary butler, Jenny. And I always used to say, will you go and ask Glen Collar about the wine? I didn't dare. And Colin cottoned onto this and said, I know you've asked, it's called Mr. White, I know you've asked White about the wine because you didn't dare. And I said, well, all right, Colin, I'm not going to ask you. But he was like a little child. He was very spoiled. His parents had divorced, I think. His mother very much over indulged him. His father, when he sent a Christmas present to Colin, his secretary would sign a book saying, from your father, you know. And I think, I very much think that the way children are brought up, it does affect them all their lives. I mean, my life, and I've got over it now, partly because I wrote a novel called Haunting at Holcombe. And in it, it's me. And just at the beginning of the war, my father was in the Scots Guards and was sent to Egypt. And my mother went to be with him. Like wives, husbands came first always, children came second. And they engaged this governess just before they left called Miss Bonner. Well, Miss Bonner was a sadist. And we were sent, my sister and I, to live with an aunt. And luckily, she wasn't cruel to Carrie, but Carrie witnessed her being, I was tied up, whatever I'd done, I tried to be so good the whole time, so dready. Every night, she said, Anne, you've done this or you haven't done that. And she'd tie my hands behind me to the bed all night. And I still wake up sometimes, quite often actually with my arms above my head. But luckily, my aunt was a Christian scientist and Miss Bonner was Roman Catholic. And I don't think my aunt really knew what she was doing to me. But because she was Roman Catholic, she took me to mass once. And this was a sackable offence in Aunt Bridget's eyes. And so she was asked to leave. And I remember I was so frightened of her that I pretended to be sad she was going, because I thought if I didn't, she'd take me somewhere and do something horrible to me. And then luckily, because my parents were still away, we got this lovely old governess who looked after some friends called Billy Williams. And she sort of put Carrie and I back together again. I mean, she was brilliant. I think she knew something awful had happened to me. But what I did in my novel, which, funnily enough, I don't think about anymore, because in my novel, I don't know if any of you've read my novel, but Miss Bonner comes to a really horrible end on the beach. I buried her. Because during the war, on the beach, which was mined, and there were a lot of London buses and taxis, which they used to practice, the Air Force used to practice. And at the end of the war, it was too expensive to remove them. So they were, I think the buses were slightly blown up. They'd been buried. They're sitting there on Holcombe Beach, covered in sand. And that's where Miss Bonner, my governess, ended up. And when I finished the book, I just felt quite different. It was extraordinary. So you were abused by her and then by your husband. Can you forgive him? I do, because in my book, partly it happened when Christopher, my son, had this dreadful accident when he was in a coma. And I knew my other two sons were dying. Henry was dying of AIDS, and Christopher was dying of a drug addiction. He didn't die quite so soon. Henry died when he's 29, and Charlie died when he's 39. And I just thought, I don't know whether I can cope. And Christopher's accident had happened because at the border of Belize, they didn't have enough money, the people had taken one of the motorbikes away. And he's riding pillion, and the boy riding the motorbike had taken Christopher's helmet and, in fact, had the accident. But he only broke, I think he broke his arm or something. And I was terribly angry. And I thought, you know, if he hadn't taken Christopher's helmet away, this wouldn't have happened. And then I suddenly realized I was so angry that I couldn't help Christopher feeling like this. I had to forgive the boy and to drain myself of anger. And it was true. Doing that, I was really able to help Christopher. And my lovely nanny Barbara, who looked after my children, and then went to look after Prince William and Harry, just left that job. And she said she'd come back and help me for a year. And between us, we did the most extraordinary job with Christopher. We wrote, we were asked to write a chapter in The Lancet about how as lay people, we thought people in comas could be helped. And it was because also I have, which is not very popular to talk about religion, but I have a very strong religion. And that, and of course, I won't say too much about that. But one of the things about being with is forgiveness. And of course, I forgave Colin. And it's not until you can forgive that you can move forward. Yes. And it must be very important. Actually, no, leave that. You have also admitted, start again. You have admitted to having a long affair during your marriage, that was much more gentle and fulfilling than your marriage was. Well, I was very, very lucky. I had somebody who was my friend, like my friend for 34 years. And he just made my life possible. He also, because men in my life had all been very difficult. My father was rather difficult. I was a terrible disappointment when I was born. My great grandfather and grandfather, you know, men had always, although my grandfather did make up for it later, and was lovely to me. But, and so having this wonderful friend, I just knew that a lot of men were marvellous. You know, they weren't all difficult and bad. And I think that's what he did for me. And we didn't see each other very much, but the occasional, occasional once a weekend, and generally lunch once a week for 34 years. I was very, very lucky. And you had a gentle and fulfilling love life. I did. I realised what love was about, really. I also realised what sex was about, which I'd never really known before. No, I can imagine. I'm glad you had that. No, well, I was very, very lucky. I've had great luck in my life, as well as awful things happening to me. You have. And do you, you've seen the place of women in society change immeasurably in your lifetime. I mean, the life, the world that your grandchildren are growing up in is completely different to the world you grew up in. How do you see being a woman in the modern world? Well, I thought it was so interesting having me to two coronations, because the Queen's coronation, there was the Queen, but otherwise on the North Arse, there were no women at all. And King Charles' coronation, I mean, Penny Morden carrying the sword, I thought was magnificent. And the gospel choir, lots of ladies there swaying about. And there were girls in the choir, young girls in the choir. I mean, women sadly were there, taking a tremendous part. And life has changed in the most amazing way in 70 years since the coronation. Well, I'm 90, so in 90 years. And women, there were certain women, I think, the Queen, becoming Queen at such a young age, did make a lot of difference, actually. Rather like, I think, Queen Victoria up to a point, you know. But of course, there were ladies-in-waiting, there were women doing wonderful things, but you never heard about them very much. But now, the only thing I feel a bit worried about is that men feel emasculated. I mean, I think it's very difficult for men. I will tell you something that I'm telling it to you now, because it was in the newspapers. And a few months ago, well, it happened three years ago, my grandson was accused of sexual infoparty with somebody. And the case came up in Scotland. And it was three of the most awful years, wondering what was going to happen. And I thought, when he told me what had happened, it was ridiculous. It was all in the newspaper. It was his birthday. And he had this girlfriend, and he went in to see her. And this other girl was in bed with her. And Henry said to them both, do you mind if I get into bed with you? And they said, no. They said, yes, of course, get in. Anyway, he started, I think, to fiddle about slightly with his girlfriend's friend. And then he said, I hope, is that all right? And she said, yes. She then got out of bed and left and went back to her room, slept the night, had breakfast with them all, and then went straight down to the police and complained. Well, the police, up to a point, there was another case, the Queen's cousin at Glamis had a case, and he actually was worse. He went to prison, actually. Anyway, the police, two cars, came racing up to Glen the next morning. Henry actually, Ewan doesn't live at Glen. He lives in the village. And so they were told he lived in the village. They arrived at the door and said, come with us. And Ewan said, well, I can't. I've got my children here. Come back tomorrow. Well, they did. They left and came back tomorrow. And Ewan said it was a humiliating, awful time. And we thought it might be dropped because it was a ridiculous case. Anyway, it wasn't. And I remember the case came out. It was in the papers. And I remember when the jury went out, I was sitting. I didn't go up. He didn't want me to go up. Sitting in my sitting room in Norfolk, absolutely dreading, you know, the jury. And suddenly they said the jury was coming back, not guilty. And they must have spent a fortune on this ridiculous case. And he got lots of messages. He's an electrician. And when he went back to work, all his mates gave him a standing ovation, which was lovely. But I do think this has happened. Some girls think they're very powerful. And it's very, very difficult for young men to know now what to do. You know, I said to him, now, you either become a monk or you carry around a piece of paper. And if you want to kiss somebody, they've got to sign and say that they agree that you can kiss them. Because it's absolutely beyond belief ridiculous. I suppose the pendulum is swinging in completely the opposite direction. Well, too much, I think. And I really worry about young men, you know, because they're quite vulnerable now. They're very, very vulnerable. How many grandsons do you have? I've got two grandsons and four granddaughters and a great-grandson and a great-granddaughter, which is wonderful, William and Ruby. And I tell you a little story, not about that, but we used to go to all the Queen and Princess Margaret's parties at Buckingham Palace because my father was an equerry to the Duke of York during the time of the abdication. And a wonderful party. They always had Punch and Judy, which Princess Margaret and I simply hated if we sat on the floor with our hands over our faces. And then when you left, there was a huge table of presents. And my sister Kerry rushed forward. She saw Teddy Bear, as she'd fancy, and I saw this beautiful doll on the table. So I was just about to advance and a voice above me said, oh Anne, can I give you a piece of advice? And I looked up and there was Queen Mary. Quite frightening, she was. So I didn't want advice at all. I wanted the doll, but I had to say, oh, you know, how kind of you or something. And she said, often nicer, better, more valuable things come in little boxes. She pushed a little box towards me, which I then took. Well, inside was a lovely necklace, a pearl and coral necklace. And at Christmas, last Christmas, my great-granddaughter Ruby wore it. So she's quite right, Queen Mary. I did get something that I treasure to this day. Although I secretly always wish I'd had the doll. It would be interesting on the subject of sex to talk about motherhood, I suppose. It would be interesting on the subject of sex to talk about motherhood, because to be a mother now, the way you've seen your children, your daughter's mother is very, very different. Well, I'm full of admiration, because one of my twin daughters, Mary, she's married, got two daughters. I mean, she brought the girls up. She also works. They have a business. I just don't think I could have done it. Although we had, I mean, in my day, we did a lot of charity work. And I would think, I don't know what on earth I did, because I had a nanny, a nursery maid, a butler, a housekeeper, two dailies, and we had three in the garden. And I only wish I'd paid more attention to our lovely cook, Mrs. Walker, because now I do all my own cooking. I do everything. And she used to come once a week. I just always had breakfast in bed. All the ladies always did. And she used to come up with a list of menus. And I just used to tick them off. And then off she'd go. And that was all I did about the food. And she was a wonderful cook, too. So the thing I think is, too, very much, husbands really much came first. I was very lucky with the three younger children to have this wonderful nanny, Barbara Barnes, who, I think I've said, went and looked after William and Harry, Prince William and Harry. But, I mean, every weekend Colin and I went away, shooting parties in the summer, summer parties, and all the stately homes we used to stay in, you know, Blenheim and Beaver. And of course, the thing about, I'm interested in all these big stately homes. One of the things you might not know is that none of the stately homes were bombed in the war. Buckingham Palace got a stray bomb because Hitler and his henchmen had all chosen a stately home. And Hitler was going to have Windsor and Buckingham Palace and all that. And Himmler had chosen Holcombe. And when my sister and I were quite small during the war in Scotland, we determined that we were going to kill Hitler. And we used to have what we called Hitler's mess, which was a jam jar under our bed, full of the most disgusting things. And our governors kept on smelling something and pouring it away. But we thought we'd go down to Holcombe, because Hitler's bound to come and see Himmler. And we used to practice with Carey's teddy bear, saying, oh, Mr. Hitler, so pleased to see you. Because we sort of knew then that he liked the airy and the look. I know we're probably not allowed to say that now, but he liked very blonde children. And that's what we were. If you sat us on the beach, you couldn't see us. And we were going down to Holcombe. And then he would say, look, we've saved this delicious drink for you. He was then going to drink it and die. We hadn't thought quite what would happen to us after that. But we were absolutely determined to do that. But we were left in my day, and also my children, very much of the nanny. I mean, we used to see them in the morning. Then I used to go out to lunches or discuss charitable events. And then in the evening, I mean, I used to be dressed up at Holcombe and taken along to sit with the grown-ups. I sat on a stool. I was given a lump of sugar. I was longing to get back to the nursery. And then the minute my nanny tapped on the door, I raced out. My grandma was saying, Anne, you're leaving very quickly, don't you enjoy being in here? I'd like to say no. But it was so different. And I don't think I could do what my daughter's done. I really don't. Amazing the change, isn't it? Shall we have a break before religion? Yes. I don't mind. Yes, absolutely. A little sip of water. You're being amazing, Anne. How many more subjects have we got? Religion's the last one. We won't bother with politics. Unless you want to. Yes. Well, I might lose some. I've absolutely died in the War of Conservatives. So that might not be very popular. Well, no, it's not that. It's just you were so interesting on all the other subjects. We don't need to unless you want to talk about it. Well, the only thing I can say, because you see, we weren't allowed to talk about politics at all if you were in the Royal House of Lords. You weren't allowed to say anything. You were just allowed to vote. That's the only thing. Yes, it might be quite interesting. And so that when I, when Princess Margaret died, I did immediately join our Conservative Party. And of course, you know, I felt very strongly, you know, I was pro-Brexit because of all the fishermen, all the fishermen around the coast. I live on the seas. Yeah. And all the local people, they were, East Anglia was very, very Brexit. Yeah, I know. So, but I don't want to get some. You don't want to get alienated. Alienated. Yeah. I think, I think it's probably, I've tried not to do that. Because nowadays, they're so vicious, aren't they? They are. I think it's much better. I think that's my word. We have a place for subjects. And we can, so we'll talk about religion and then we'll, we'll close up. I mean, you know, yeah, of course, you know, you know, I'm very keen on, on education, really, to educate people. It isn't until we've got the young people. I mean, we all learnt to cook at school. I know. We all learnt to, to, to, to, well, we, nobody asked that, but we were taught all those things. I know. How to run a house. And you see, if they knew how to cook, and tasted, they wouldn't do all these takeaways. I know, I know. But I don't know, if I said that, people would think I was upper class twit, I think. Well, no, you're absolutely right. I was educated into, you know, I, I left school, when did I leave school? In 1994. And I was educated within an inch of my life academically. And nobody taught me how to cook, how to sew, how to anything. And, and now I run, you know, I have three children and a busy life and I, I can't do any of the things that actually I'm meant to be. Well, what you did, I know, I could say something, was after the war, because there was no money, we couldn't go abroad, because you weren't allowed any money. Yeah. And so, Lord and Lady Devon, the Earl of Devon, set up this thing at Powerton Castle of 26 girls, and we went to learn how to run a big house. Yeah. Well, it actually was brilliant. We had two weeks as a cook, we had two weeks as a butler, we loved being a butler, learning to serve, lay a table and things. Two weeks as a housekeeper, two weeks as a gardener, two weeks as a head groom. Sort of, you know, we liked, we all enjoyed that. And, you know, and then I went to some brilliant thing called the House of Citizenship, run by a Miss Neville Rove, whose great-grandmother was Pocahontas. Oh, wow. Because her great-grandmother had gone to India. Yeah. And, of course, Pocahontas, the Queen Victoria, who was sort of interested in the Muncheon, people like that, said, you must bring her to London, I want to meet her. And, of course, she wasn't in London long before the fumes and the things, she died. But anyway, I was taught, we were taught how to public speak, and we would sit there, and then Miss Neville Rove said, Anne Cook, five minutes on the third and fourth bridge. You didn't know what she was going to ask you. And up you got, and you just, you know, you had to think on your feet. Amazing. What do you do? Quite useful. And then, well, it was because people said, when I started to speak, went too frightened. In the opening, I wasn't. I mean, I really rather enjoyed it. But I love, audiences are quite different. The one yesterday wasn't very good, I don't know why. Sometimes I get a really good audience, and I can work them a bit, you know, give them a laugh, and all that sort of thing. And also speaking out. I mean, I don't, I hate being mic'd up, because actually, I can project my voice. Your voice is very natural. Right to the end. So, and that, so by the time I married, I mean, I could sew, I was, my mother gave me a sewing machine. That was one of my birthday presents, I remember. And I used to make my clothes, I used to make. And because, if you know how to do all these things, then when you have other people doing it for you, you can sort of say, look, I'd like it done like that, or whatever. But I think everybody, why, why aren't people taught to cook and do that sort of thing? I mean, we've all got to live, haven't we, somehow? I can't think, because it's all I ever do is cook. I mean, that's why it's important to learn to cook, a lot of other things, you know. Much more. That's all. How are you feeling? Yeah, no, I'm fine. Are you ready to move on to religion? Okay. We're going to move on to religion. Did you always have a faith in God? Yes, I was brought up, I remember, I always said my prayers, I always knelt at my bed, said my prayers. My mother used to read me religious books for children. And my father was a stickler for being on time. And every morning, my great-grandfather had prayers in the chapel. And I remember being taken, there was a sort of balcony. I didn't think we'd be concentrated to him. I remember we used to take a lot of rubber bands and drop them down to the balcony to see if we could drop them on people. So I think my religion then was not very strong, obviously. But I've always had religion. I've always been to church. It was a more lip service, I suppose. And it wasn't until this really awful, when my two boys were dying, Christopher was in a coma, I suddenly had a very serious talk to God. I suddenly thought, and I felt so lucky that he was there. And I just had to bring it out. And I said, can I interrupt you? Can we, that story is brilliant, but we need to explain about what had happened and how your, why your older boys were dying, if that's okay. Well, I haven't answered that. Well, I'm going to ask you a question. You had five children, but your two eldest sons, Charlie and Henry, died young. Charlie from AIDS. Sorry, Henry from AIDS, Charlie from addiction. And then your son, Christopher, when they were both unwell, your eldest son had a terrible bike accident. Christopher's the youngest. How does, how does a faith survive that sort of loss? Well, I thought, I just felt so awful, I couldn't think. And then there was nothing else in my, I just, I wanted something to help me. I thought I can't carry on. I mean, you know, two of my sons died, and Christopher was 19, and he was so good looking. And his whole life was in front of him. And it was a squash diet in a moment. And they thought he was going to die too. And I thought, I just, I can't, I can't manage this. And then it came to me. I think God came to me. And I started to pray. I said, please, God, I probably haven't been a very good Christian up to now. But will you help me now? Because I need it. And I started to pray. And I said, God, will you help me now? Because I need it. And he did. And I found the most wonderful Christian healer, called Mrs. Black. And she lived in Scotland. And she'd come down to see Christopher in his coma once a month. And she could get him to do the most extraordinary things, which nobody else could. And I said to her, could I, she used to use her hands on him. And one day I said, can I feel your hands? And they were boiling hot. They were literally radiating heat. Anyway, one day, she was in Scotland, and she rang me up to find out how Christopher was. And I could hardly speak. I thought, actually, I'm going to die. I'm so tired. And she said, Anne, I think you need a bit of help. And I said, yes, I do. So she said, look, tomorrow morning, sit in your sitting room in a comfortable chair, and just completely relax. And sit in your chair at 10 o'clock in the morning. So I sat there, all like Darting Thomas, you know, relaxed completely. And the most, suddenly, the most extraordinary feeling came over me. It was as if I was being filled with sort of champagne, in a way, with energy, and hope, and light. It didn't last long. But after it sort of ebbed, I said to her, what's happened to me? Something extraordinary has happened. And she said to me, Anne, I'm so glad. She said, I've been praying for you so hard. And sometimes this does happen to people. It never happened again. But from that moment on, I was given energy and hope. And I went back to the hospital to be with Christopher. And that has been with me ever since. And even now, I just feel God has really rewarded me in the most extraordinary way by giving me a completely new take on life. I've now become an author. I'm earning my living. I seem to be able to help other people. And he's just given me, I've never, I've never been so happy in my life. Isn't that wonderful? Do you feel like a path has been chosen for you? Well, I do. I mean, I don't think I deserve it. Because looking back, in so many ways, I've been so lucky compared to so many people. You know, I was born into the aristocracy. I've had downsides, too. Wonderful mother. And I'm very fond of my father, but he was more difficult. And two lovely sisters, one who sadly has died. And the other one actually is not very well at the moment. And I just feel so lucky. Because I just feel wonderful, full of life, and optimistic. And if you're feeling optimistic and happy, you can help other people. You somehow, you know, and I can always tell, especially with my friends, when they're down or depressed, you know, I don't know, maybe they think I'm very irritating. But, you know, I don't think they do. Because I can see them and we chat and we laugh, I get them to laugh. And when I leave, they often say, Oh, I just feel so much better. So that's very nice. Has suffering made you more compassionate, do you think? Yes. I think it probably has. I think I'm more tolerant, probably, than I was. I used to be quite, you know, intolerant. I was always rather quick. And people who were slow or weren't getting the points, I used to feel irritated. But now I don't. And, you know, I'm just so amazed and thrilled to think that I can help other people. I mean, so many people, for different reasons, write to me and say your books have made all the difference to my life, because of this and that, you know. And you've shown me a way through what I'm going through. And I've taken your advice. I say that's being an agony art. Does a belief in an afterlife make the idea of death less frightening? You have to think about it. I mean, I think about death now, rarely because so many of my friends are dying, you know. I mean, luckily, if you die of old age, it's a sort of more graceful way to go. You've got to die. I mean, what is awful when people die in an accident? Or I had a great friend whose daughter died of an overdose. I mean, that's awful. At least I had a chance to say goodbye to my boys, which I think, you know, was great. But I believe it. Yes, I do. I mean, I don't quite believe we sit up there, you know, chatting to God quite. But I think there's an energy. I think we don't altogether die. Our spirits go, I think, somewhere. I hope. And you feel much, well, it must be lovely to think of your boys as not being gone. No, I mean, I mean, I, somebody said, a friend of mine who's this daughter who died of an overdose, she tried, she wanted to get in touch with her. And there are people who say, and I said, English don't. I mean, once they're dead, you don't want to be brought back. You want to go on. You know, you're doing it because of you, not because of them. Let them go. Let their spirits go. But now, I mean, I certainly, I mean, I can see Charles and Henry saying, Mum, what on earth are you doing bringing us back like this? Must be nice, though, talking about them and writing about them and keeping them with you. Yes. And do you know, one lovely thing that happens is quite often when I'm talking, some rather graying man comes along and said, I was at school. The other day, somebody came up and said, I was at school at Eden with Henry. And it was a lovely, lovely talk. He came and saw me the other day. He's also a writer. Quite often people come up and that's wonderful because, you know, it's just as if they're still here, still there. And of course, the great thing about, well, one of the things, not great, when you die young, you always remember them as young. I mean, I can't think of them as gray-haired, balding old men. To me, they're always young. I'm so sorry to upset you. It's all right. They were all just talking about us. I know. Is a hug an order? You were a lovely mum to them. You were a lovely mum to them. And they're together, aren't they? They're together. Well, they were. They were. They were young. Charlie was quite naughty with Henry. He was quite jealous of him. But they adored Christopher. Christopher is wonderful. I mean, he's very bad. He's disabled. He's never able to work. But he's so, he'd never complain. He'd never said, you know, how awful it was. He said, my life is quite different, but I, you know, enjoy it. He married twice. His first wife was very clever, Greek. It wasn't, I mean, it was too unequal, the marriage. But they have these two lovely daughters, my granddaughter, who got first, both got first. Amazing. I mean, you know. And then, luckily, Anstead got fed up with him. I think Anstead said, oh, you know, and so he said, can I come and stay with your mum for a bit? Anyway, he came, and I'd got him, but he couldn't move around. But I got a wonderful moment when I'd seen this tricycle, and we managed to get him on, and it meant that he'd go dance a pub on his own, you know. Anyway, I said, you know, be back at, if I'm not back at 11 o'clock, give me a ring, you know, because he was a bit unsteady, and I thought he'd fell off. But it meant nothing, how I was in bed, furious. I got up, put my Macintosh up, got in the car, drove down to the pub, saw his bicycle out there, and I thought, what's he been doing? Went in, and there seemed to be some people. I think, what's he been doing? I dragged him out. Anyway, the next morning, I said, you know, Christopher, I'm really worried about you. What were you doing? And he said, oh, I just met my next wife. So I said, Christopher, you're still married. He had. And it was Joanna. And she came in, she's a wonder, and she's my PA. I know. Well, you probably came last, Joanna. Yeah, exactly. And Joanna is a saint. I mean, so lovely. I can, they laugh together. I hear them laughing, and she never gets irritated with him. And he, I mean, marriage made in heaven. So that's why I think God is on my side, or somebody is, because all these lovely things, you know, have happened. Absolutely. I don't want to cut you. We've finished. Can I ask one more question, and then we're done? One more question. Okay, right. The question is, what matters in this life? Well, that's a very big question. Well, I think friendships and people. And I mean, that's what matters. I think if we were suddenly put on a desert island alone, I wouldn't like that at all. Although I was very alone. I was, Colin and I were on a desert island alone at one point. That was extremely difficult. And that's partly why I wrote the book Murder on Musty, because I had 12 years to think how I could kill Colin. And one of the ways was to kill him. We had a cotton plantation. I was going to bundle him up in a roll of cotton so he wouldn't be seen until he landed in Leicestershire or something. Well, I think people, I don't know what we'd do without children and mothers and fathers and people. I know. You're right. Oh, Anne. Oh, it's very hard. I can't even begin to imagine how hard it must be. I'm so sorry. The trouble was, it was so much. I had two of your children dying, and then the third one. I mean, twins, lovely. I'm sorry you sent me off. No, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to send you off. No, well, it's inevitable. I mean, if I'm going to tell you about my life, you have to. You do, and honestly, the way you talk about them and what you did for Christopher. I know you wished you could have done it for the other boys, I'm sure, but what you did for Christopher. I didn't talk about that, but I mean, it was quite interesting. Princess Margaret, with age, I mean, she's wonderful. She used to go to the lighthouse with me, and she wasn't so touchy-feely, but she made them laugh, and then when Henry was in, I mean, he was like a leper. I remember going, he was very, very, and I took him to A&E, and there were lots of people there. He was too ill to sit on the chair, so I sat on the floor, and then after about five or six minutes, I looked round, he'd all gone. He was covered in composure, I mean, like a leper, and that was quite difficult too. And all my friends, I mean, a lot of them had children, and quite rightly, they suddenly made excuses about not coming to stay. Princess Margaret always did, always kissed him. I mean, she's fantastic, and that's why I partly wrote my first book. I just wanted to put the record straight, you know, and you're really helping other people who've been through similar things. I think I am. I mean, that's what they say. So many people write to me who've lost a child, or they've just lost their husband, you know, or something, and are going through agony. And, you know, I have to say to them too that, I mean, love is the most difficult thing, in a way, because when you lose somebody, it's so painful. If you don't love somebody, it probably isn't very painful. You know what I mean? That is the great thing about love, that when, you know, when they go, it is terribly, terribly painful. I think it was the Queen who said that grief is the price you pay for love. Exactly. She said that was my idea. But you wouldn't have not had the love. No, and I wouldn't also have. I mean, it was great. I had Charlie for 39 years, and Annie for 20. But you see, in a way, because of, well, like you and me, we sent them off to boarding school. I don't know why we did. I mean, it's interesting that they're not sending Prince George to, I mean, Kate wouldn't. I mean, looking at it, it is extraordinary. I mean, to send a seven-year-old. And my sister, younger sister, I didn't, why? She was sent at seven. She went to some lady trial, which was a sort of, well, nice, you know, she took her pony and rabbit and that sort of thing. And I said to her the other day, because she has difficulties, Sarah, in a way, and I said, didn't you mind? I mean, you know, and Sarah, she said, no, she's very happy. But you can say that, but it must affect you. It must. It just must. But people didn't, you know, nobody knew then the, well, boys, they thought they were bound them up to make them, you know, and the father, so I said, I went and it didn't do any harm to me. I mean, thank goodness the world has changed. Well, I really am, because I think to send little boys off, I mean, I waited. Christopher went when he was nine with his cousin, who was now, and I sent them, they went with Carrie and I, and it was Beeston, which is about 50 miles away. And at that time, they came back for a lot of weekends. I mean, now, actually, they're hard at school. They seem to return the whole time. My son is, I have a 17-year-old son. My God, are you sure? Two girls, 14 and 10. Of course, what happens during the teenage years, sometimes it can be quite difficult. I'm finding my teenage, my 14-year-old daughter very difficult. Everything I say is wrong. And it's so depressing, that, isn't it? So depressing. Honestly, if I said, do you like that peach? It's horrible, it looks like underwear or something. But I know it'll pass. Well, in part, and what's so lovely is, with the men, because they were extremely difficult, my God. But now, it's so funny. I mean, they repeat things I've said. They say, well, Mum, you're quite right. And they do say, no, God, we were awful too. I know. I said, yes, you were. But they're so lovely to me now. Oh, I know. I tell you, I mean, the blessings you have. Oh, and Amy is a specialist painter. She works for a French firm, and now she does a lot of painting. She's doing my windows. And she also does a lot of charity work. She's taught, she's learned some sign language. She does a lot with deaf people. And she's just so marvellous. And May, of course, can't because she's got daughters and a husband. And, but she's always ringing up. And they come up, and we have, so they bring different games. We've always loved playing racing games, that sort of thing. And they bring me new games. So every evening, we sit there, and they've got a new game or, you know, word game or whatever. And we sit, there's three of us. And it's just wonderful. Great blessings. Well, it's just made, it really is a lovely sort of special end to one's life. I'm sure you're a brilliant mother too. And your daughter will be all over you when you'll be there. I look forward to that. Well, it's extreme. You may have to wait a bit. How long do I have to wait? I have to wait quite a long time. All I want you to promise you'll do, do you promise you'll live to 100? Well, I have every intention of it. I had a wonderful birthday when I was 90. I sent Annabelle a Christmas card. I don't know if she's got it. Blowing out my cake, which had 90 candles on it. It was rather good. It was actually quite nice. I had just over 90 people, but I gave, not, I didn't talk to, I just talked for a moment. And at the end, I said, well, I welcome you all in 10 years' time. I hope you'll all come back. I'm going to be here, I said. You absolutely are. Well, I don't know. Well, I mean, a great thing is if one feels well, like I do at the moment, I mean, absolutely. I've got no arthritis. I can walk. I am a tiny bit deaf. I mean, I've not got my hearing aids in now, but the children insisted on me getting them. In church, it helps. One-to-one like this, it's fine. And I've got cataracts, which I've got a bit of a problem now. Your energy is amazing. Well, I haven't got a lot of it. Well, I mean, I am, you know, I do relax. I can relax. It's very important to be able to relax. And I meant, which I put off, because I really felt I could, this evening, I was meant to go, Tina Brown was having this great thing for her husband who died, Evans, or he's called something, Harold. And there were a whole lot of people talking about the meeting. And I had a friend actually coming down. And last night, I just, you know, I wanted to give my best. And after I've done something like this with you, I do feel, I do feel a bit tired. You know what I mean? I come down a bit. But in order to do anything, and I speak in theatres. I'm not, I'm speaking at book festivals more now. Theatres are quite tiring. Because, again, you're very bright lights. I had somebody asking questions. I did something with Helena Bonham Carter at the Richmond Theatre. And she's lovely. I mean, everybody, I think, came to see her rather than me. But we got people ask questions. Because I can't hear, really, when people ask questions too well. And sometimes they say to the speaker, either they write the question or somebody goes down there. Anyway, they've written all these questions. And Helena was asking me. We'd only done two. And she said, I'm bored with these questions, she said, and tore them up and flung them behind our chair. I said, Helena, these people have been writing those questions. She said, I don't care. She said, they're boring questions. I mean, it's so funny. And then we laughed so much when we got back to the dressing room. I said, honestly. She said, boring lot of people. And she said, I wasn't going to, she said, I wasn't going to take those questions. And of course, she was fit for Margaret. And she came to see me when she was, and I was in, Carol, she was called Henry, took my part. Well, a pretty girl. And they both came to see me to get some tips. But I mean, all that's exciting. I mean, being in the crime and I don't know. You know, you're having an amazing time. And I hope you continue to enjoy it. You're so kind. And I really, sorry, being a bit emotional. But I find it quite difficult still. Oh, I thought we were talking about, and it was so sympathetic. It's something, you know, I felt I could sort of do that video, which I wouldn't dare. I try and stop people too much, talking about the boys. Can I see a photo? Oh, well, yes, I have. Yes. Well, I've got all my papers in the country, but I've...