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In this podcast episode, the host discusses the foundations of successful home care hiring. They emphasize the importance of having a scalable recruiting process and a caregiver-first hiring approach. The host challenges listeners to actively participate in workshops and provides a checklist to assess if their agency has an agency-first or caregiver-first hiring process. They also highlight the significance of clearly listing pay and hiring timelines in job ads to meet caregivers' needs. Ultimately, the goal is to improve the hiring process and retain high-quality caregivers to grow the business. Welcome to the Hire to Thrive podcast, where home care hiring is reimagined. I'm your host, Rachel Gartner, founder and CEO of CareWorks. We're on a mission to help you hire and retain more high-quality caregivers so that you can serve your community better. Since 2018, we've helped our partner agencies hire thousands of caregivers. If your agency needs more hires to thrive, you're in the right place. I'm here today to give you some of the foundations of how to succeed. So when we have clients at CareWorks that are hiring 60 caregivers a month, how are we getting them those results, right? That is a scalable recruiting process. We work with agencies that are brand new. We work with agencies that are doing over $10 million a year in revenue. The process for the tiny agency, brand new, no clients, and the $10 million a year agency, pretty much the same. It's just a question of volume. So there is not some huge secret out there that you don't unlock until you hit a certain level of growth. It's the opposite. You don't hit that level of growth until you figure out your recruiting process and your retention process. So that's what we're going to do today. I would love to continue working with you more in depth. And I am going to share a little bit about that at the end. Today, we're going to go through some really detailed information. So I want you to download that PDF because we are going to do a couple little workshop moments today. And I want you to actually participate. That is my first challenge to you is do not just see it. And you know, sometimes when somebody's like, all right, kids, what's the answer? And then there's like a quiet moment where at home, the kids should be shouting out the answer. And you just wait for that quiet moment to be over. I don't want you to do that. When we do these workshop moments and we're asking like, okay, how's it going? I want you guys to actually do the work. Let's go ahead and start talking about the basics of recruiting. So here's our goal. We want to measure and improve every step of the hiring process so that you can hire more caregivers and grow your business. Now, the fundamental belief here is that this is possible. So I'm going to come back to that again and again, because I know there are people on here today that are burnt out and think that it's not possible. They're not out there. They don't want to work in home care. They're not going to stick around. And I want to keep reinforcing to you, it is possible. I do work with agencies that are getting great results. And the way to get there is to break it down into all these little pieces, right? That's what we're going to do. We're going to break it down step by step and help you scale your agency. And here's the foundation of how we do that. At CareWork, we have what we call a caregiver first philosophy. This means we're going to prioritize the caregiver's needs and improve their experience at every step of building a caregiver first hiring process. The reason for this is that we've gotten jaded as an industry and we have some outdated mindsets still happening. And when you have an outdated mindset, it sounds like, well, if they don't want to fill out the application, they're probably not a hire that I wanted anyways. And we want to break that old mindset because it is the caregiver's responsibility to get a job to pay their bills. It is not their responsibility to staff your agency. It is your responsibility to make sure that the job that they get is with you. So throughout the hiring process, we're going to reframe that to say it's not the caregiver's responsibility to make sure your agency is staffed. If they go somewhere else because they got a job faster or because the job pays better or because it has the hours they want, that is entirely fair because we know most caregivers are living paycheck to paycheck, often under great financial stress. In those times, the difference of getting a job that you can work right now, get started right away, or a job that you can maybe start next week is a really big difference. So what we want to do throughout the whole hiring process is we're going to take that judgment-free. We are not going to talk down about caregivers. We're not going to say, well, they're just chasing the higher pay or they're just going to the first job that picks up the phone. We're going to reframe that to say it is their responsibility to pay their bills and to meet the needs of their family. It is our responsibility to make it our agency that helps them do that. And that is why we build a caregiver-first hiring process. So go ahead and open up your workbook. I'm going to open up mine as well. We're going to do the first little workshop. And this is a caregiver-first versus agency-first assessment. What we find is a lot of agencies don't realize they have an agency-first hiring process. Usually what this means is you have something that you've done it this way for a really long time. And you probably have really good reasons for the way that you do it. And you don't realize it's become an agency-first hiring process. In other words, it's more convenient for your agency. It helps you avoid wasted time. We hear that one a lot. Like, well, it's a waste of time to have them come to the interview if they don't. You know, that makes sense. It makes sense. I get it. It's a good thing. The problem is a lot of times agencies are offloading the risk from themselves to the caregivers. Because if you, for example, schedule an interview and you don't require the documentation to be submitted ahead of the interview, so their driver's license or their TB test or whatever it is, and you say, you can send it to me ahead of time. But if not, they'll come in from the interview. That is fine. Then you are taking a risk because you might have a caregiver come in and interview. You might invest your time in them and they might not turn in their documents. So to avoid that, many agencies will say instead they have to submit their documents ahead of the interview because otherwise it's a waste of time. But what you've actually done is taken the wasted time risk and moved it from yourself to the caregiver because now they're submitting documents for an agency that they don't know if they're going to get offered a job. They don't know if you have the shifts they need. They don't know exactly what their starting pay is going to be. So now you're asking them to risk wasted time so that you don't have to. And when we come back to whose responsibility is it to get them to work at your agency? It's not their responsibility. It's your responsibility. So you should be the one risking that wasted time. So let's go through this. Let's talk about is your agency currently caregiver first, okay? Because this is not very hard to fix, but you have to be so intentional about it. In other words, it's not going to fix itself, okay? So let's go through this checklist with me. I want you to think about your pay and hiring timeline. Does your job ad clearly list the pay and hiring timeline? Now, why these things specifically? All of these are database. This is not just pulling out of my head of good ideas, though I do have many good ideas in there. This is the data of what makes caregivers choose a particular job when they're looking at home care agencies. It's the pay and it's how quickly they can get working. So you want to have that at the beginning of your job ad. If you're not sure, go look at your job ad and think about this. Because fill up your Indeed account if you're not sure. What's listed at the very top of your ad? Is it this is how much we pay, this is how much we can get you working or how quickly we can get you working? These are the kind of shifts we have. Or is it something like Bob and Karen started this agency 20 years ago because of this experience and they love this community and they've earned all these awards? Those are great things. That is great information. But it should not be at the top of the job ad because most caregivers are going to be doing this on their mobile phone and they're moving very quickly. And they open your ad and you want them to immediately see, I can meet your needs. To value for their time. And it also shows that you understand their needs. You understand that they're looking for a certain pay and that they need to get working quickly. And we're not judging this, right? This is not a value statement or a moral question. It's just they're looking for a job to meet their needs. I'm going to put that at the top of the ad. So on your caregiver first checklist, I want you to honestly ask, do they immediately know that you're going to meet their needs? Is that first in your job ad? And the next thing is your starting pay. So I highly encourage you to list your actual starting pay. Because some of the pitfalls we see here are vague statements. That is agency first mindset. If you are not comfortable listing your starting pay, maybe you don't pay enough. And it feels like a great idea. This is another one of those kind of emotionally driven things that feels like we're going to, you know, put the statement like great pay, competitive wages, best pay, and we'll get more applicants. But if you get more applicants and your pay is not what they're looking for, they're probably not going to actually work for you or at least not for long. So what happens is you get on the phone with them to do a phone screen. And they may ask, what's your pay? And then you tell them. Now, they might still book an interview. Some of them might say, no, that's not what I'm looking for. Thank you. A lot of them are going to feel uncomfortable because many people do. Many people don't have the confidence to say, no, that's not what I'm looking for. And kind of for good reason because a lot of caregivers do get judged if they're on a phone screen and say, no, that's not what I'm looking for. People tend to think, well, they're just in it for the pay. Well, again, we're not judging. They're in it to pay their bills, right? It's a job. So it's okay for them to have certain pay standards. But if you're not listing your starting pay, they get partly into the process and it doesn't meet their needs. They might move forward in the process because they're too uncomfortable to say that. So they might schedule that interview. If they don't have another job lined up, they might even show up for that interview and start the hiring process. But are they going to stick around in the long term if the pay that you offer is not what they need? Probably not. So although it feels nice to get more applicants, please list your starting pay in your job ads. So that's the next thing on our checklist that I hope you guys have open. Next one is your job benefits are listed first. So again, in the ordering of your ad, we want your pay and hiring timeline and the job benefits at the top. We want agency history lower down if it's in the job ad at all. If it is, it should be very concise and written towards the caregiver. We want job duties and requirements near the bottom because we want people to see first, this is a job that meets my needs. I'm going to make enough pay. I can get working quickly. This is a good place to work. Let me see if I'm qualified. Versus opening something up and there's a long list. And so many of these, you guys, are copy pasted. Somebody has a list of 20 job duties and requirements that they wrote one time and they just pop into every job ad. I want you to think about, does this entire list need to be there? And if it does, put it near the end of your ad. It does not need to be at the top. Last, is it easy to apply an interview? So this one is harder because the other ones are your job ad. This one is your whole hiring process. So a caregiver first hiring process moves very quickly. Every step is clearly defined and there are very little barriers to them moving forward. We're going to take as many barriers as we can out. So like I mentioned before, documents before an interview. It saves you time to not interview people who don't have their documents. But many agencies find that if they will make it optional to submit before the interview, the waste of time is more than made up for by how many more caregivers they're able to hire just by removing that requirement. You can still have it be preferred and that's great. But a caregiver first process makes it easy for the caregiver because we're prioritizing their needs and their experience. An agency first process is going to have a lot of tedious steps. You have to fill out this application. Now I need you to go fill out that paperwork. Now I need you to submit this document. Now I need you to do this online training. And then if you do all of these things, we'll hire you. You're asking the caregiver to put an awful lot of faith in you with their precious time when they don't even know you yet, right? Last one is open scheduling. So you want to work your schedule around the caregivers. Now this doesn't have to take your whole day. I know it can be really frustrating to sit around for people who might not show up. You can do this in some really creative ways. And I would love to dig into that with you another day. But the question is, are you working around the caregiver's schedule or your schedule? Things like orientation. Orientation is time consuming. It takes a lot of work. It probably involves multiple people in your office. But if you're only offering it one day per week, that means anybody that applies that day or the next day is going to have almost a week wait before the next orientation. Now that is OK as long as you're providing a great opportunity for them to work. And by that, I mean good shifts available and good pay. So you can kind of be one thing or the other, but you can't be both. So you cannot be at or below the normal or average pay for your area and have a very tedious process. If you want to have a very tedious process and you want to only interview the very, very best and only schedule them for the interview if you have all their documents, you can do that if you want. But you need to pay really well because otherwise caregivers aren't going to be willing to go through all of those steps. All right, really quick, let's talk through writing a good job ad. All right, so a couple of things with a job ad. We want to start strong. So we've talked about starting really strong. You want to start strong on your job ad. And we're talking here about all the things we've been saying. Speaking to the caregiver's needs, high pay, but what I love is what I call attention grabbers. So at the very top of a job ad, I put a couple quick statements in bold and they're not full sentences. So I might say, pays $18 an hour, working as soon as next week, great career path or something like that. But I'm just going to go boom, boom, boom, really quick. On that same note, keep your job ads readable. We do not need long paragraphs, long sentences. They're on their mobile phones most of the time. And then last, speaking to the caregiver's needs, again, make that database. So we don't just need to guess. There's a lot of great data out there about what caregivers are looking for. You can also just ask your new hires and ask people who have been with you a long time. Ask your caregivers, why did you choose this job? Why do you love to work here? Why do you stay? And put those things in your job ad. And then for evaluating your job ads, you're going to want to evaluate them at least once a month. We don't want to put up a new job ad and look at it a week later and decide whether or not it's working. You really want to look at it over the course of about a month to decide if it's effective or not. But you don't want to set it and forget it. Just post your job ads and keep going. You also don't want to just copy and paste the same job ad every time. I'm going to call some of you guys out because I know you're doing it. Don't do that. Write some specific job ads that talk to potential caregivers. Imagine in your head or write down what caregiver are you writing this job ad for. Think about your best caregivers and the qualities that they share and imagine you're writing directly to them instead of just copying and pasting the same ad. To evaluate your job ads, you want to review your cost per applicant and your cost per hire. So this is the first step in your hiring pipeline is your cost per applicant. So if you're tracking all of your ads, you can quickly see which ones are performing better and which ones are not. But you still need to look at your cost per hire to know, is this actually getting us results? Because getting applicants doesn't mean anything if they don't actually get hired. So you want to track that through to the cost per hire if you can. And then once a month, shift your job budget around. So if you're running something like an Indeed account and you have different ads running with a large budget distributed among them, it's going to vary over time where your budget should be allocated. I typically don't recommend an even split of your budget unless you are just now posting the ad. But once they've been running for a while, many agencies will find that different job ads perform better. So you shift your budget to the higher performing ads with the exception of ads that maybe you have an area that's really expensive, but you need caregivers in that area. You would want to keep your budget there. So this is really a monthly discussion to sit down, look at your job ads, look at your budget, and decide how to move that money around. All right. That is the basics of recruiting. So caregiver first philosophy, really prioritizing the caregiver's needs at every step. Now, we're not going to walk through this whole checklist today, but the next part of your workbook is a ad audit. So it's really designed for you to sit down and look through your current job ads. This is at the end. This is on page, well, not quite the end, but page five, how to maximize your results. This is a lot of what we just talked about. And I want you to do this sometime this week, sit down, go through point by point and see if you're currently doing this with your online ads. But right now we're going to talk about scalable hiring. I'm so excited. This is where I get really, really pumped because this is all about your funnel and your KPIs. And this is like the heartbeat of home care hiring to have a scalable process. So if you guys are in the doldrums, let's talk about your hiring funnel. But we start with our applicants. Then they book an interview. Then the interview is successful, hopefully. They get hired and they start working. Each of these steps has time associated with it. It takes time to go from an application to a booked interview. A couple of days after that until they're actually successfully interviewed, then they got to get hired, then they got to start working. So this would be your time for application to first shift, which is a great KPI to track. Now let's think if you go, wait a minute, after they do the phone screen, instead of just booking the interviews, I want them to do a second application. So maybe they apply through an online job ad. Now I want them to go fill out your operations software. Might have a really long application. I want them to go fill that out and then I'll book their interview. Then we'll move to the process. But wait, after they do their interview, they can book the interview, but I don't want them coming in unless they submitted their documents. So they need to get all of that to me. Then we can do an interview and have it be successful. But before I hire them, I really need to talk to their references. Now they're hired. Now they're working. None of those things were horrible. None of these were like they have to go out and run a 26-mile marathon and two hours. These are good things. These are reasonable steps. Every single one of these steps makes sense on paper. So what we are not seeing here is they're not a good hire. They're not a good hire if they're not willing to do these steps. I don't want them working for my agency if they can't take the time to fill out an application or if they can't wait a day or two for a phone call. We're not going to judge. We're going to think about it from the caregiver's perspective. Again, they need to get working quickly to fulfill their real responsibilities in life, which is to provide for themselves, maybe their family, keep a roof over their head. So let's think about that caregiver who needs to get working quickly to get a paycheck. Maybe they just lost their job. Maybe the job that they have, they're not getting enough hours, and they're going to miss rent. And they get a call from one job that's like, this is so great. I can't wait to meet with you. You can come into the office day after tomorrow, and we'll have you working by the beginning of next week. And then they get a call from another agency that says, so great to speak with you. We're really excited to work with you. Before we can do your interview, I need you to send me all of this paperwork. And then if that goes well, we'll go ahead and schedule your interview. Where is that caregiver going to go? And would you not also go to the job with the shorter funnel, given that these are not high-level jobs? These are not salaried positions where you're going to do a couple interviews, and you're really going to think about culture because you're going to be there for years and years. I love that heart, and that is what a lot of agencies are bringing to the hiring process is really wanting the right fit. But you cannot use that as an excuse to ask caregivers to jump through a bunch of hoops because they won't do it. Not because they're not the right fit, not because they don't want to stick around, but because they have to get working quickly. They have responsibilities. We want to optimize this funnel for a couple of the specific things I mentioned. Here are some quick strategies to streamline it. If you require an application other than their initial online application, so maybe it's for your operating software payroll, have them do it at the interview. Just schedule in an extra 10 to 15 minutes, have a computer available for them and somebody there to answer any questions that they have. You can still send it to them ahead of time. You can send them the link and say, if you go ahead and get this filled out, it's going to put you right in our payroll system, and we can get you working faster. But if not, still come on into the interview. We'll do it together. So we are still on the phone screen scheduling the next step and we're having them come in even if they haven't pulled it out. The next one is submitting documents. Please make this optional and easy before the interview or before orientation. I know that they're important. I know, and I know that you don't want people coming in and wasting your time, but please don't let that lead to a canceled interview. Because for every person who schedules an interview, there's three to four other people that never even scheduled it. So think about your cost. Just getting somebody to schedule an interview is expensive, and time, and your job ad budget, and try everything you can to actually make that successful. Again, like the application, you can give them a way to do it ahead of time, but definitely communicate to them that if they don't have the documents in, that's fine. Please still come in. We can't wait to meet with you. We'll work on it together. Last one is checking references. Do not withhold a job offer because you need to check references. Just go ahead and give them the job offer and start moving them forward. If you need to kill a little time in there, offer some paid training. You may find if you study your ROI for a while that you get a better cost per hire by streamlining your funnel that outweighs the additional cost of paid training. This is the heart behind everything that Care Work does is the data, and here are some reasons. So they take you off the emotional roller coaster. If you've been in home care hiring for a while, you might be a little jaded. You might be a little burnt out, and you might get to a point where somebody leaving or owning the agency, you're sitting down, and you're like, we have to hire more people. We're not keeping up, and it gets really stressful. Understandably, totally understandable, but what you don't want is to be sitting around with your team and everybody saying, well, I think it's this, or I think it's that, and I did my best, and somebody's saying, well, you know, you did your best, but we didn't get enough hires. We want to take that out of it. We want it to be database. Hey, our percentage of applicants that booked in the review is down 5%. Here's why we think that is. So it takes you off that emotional roller coaster, and as a business owner or leader, it allows you to forecast, which also takes you off the emotional roller coaster, because you're not sitting on the edge of your seat, like hoping and praying you're going to get the hires. You can forecast that out very easily, and they are also the foundation of collaboration. So like I said, we don't want to be sitting around pointing fingers. We want everybody to come to the table with clear data so that we can make a clear path forward. Your data also provides insight into changes over time. So when you're looking at it and saying, last year we were doing way better than this year. We're not even keeping up with turnover. Why is that? Because the short answer is to say there's a caregiver shortage. People aren't picking up the phone. People aren't showing up. But that is not a solvable problem. If you are putting it out there as external forces, you're taking away your own power to solve it. When you look at the data, you can look very clearly and say, hey, last year we were getting 25% more applicants. We had a higher percentage of people booking an interview, and our show up rate was higher. Now we can individually solve each one of those problems. And now you control the growth of your agency. These database strategies also show progress objectively for the same reason. So it's really encouraging when you can say our applicants are down, but our percentage of applicants booking an interview is up. And that's great progress. So now we know if we get more applicants, we're going to get more hires because we've improved our process. Objective progress. Last, it keeps you from throwing money at a broken system. A lot of agencies are doing that. So I do strategy calls all the time with home care agencies. And every now and then I get somebody that's like, yeah, we're spending $5,000 a month on job ads. We're getting like two hires. That is throwing money at a broken system. It's also throwing money at a broken system if you're just adding more and more money to your online job ads, and you don't know why you're not getting hires. You don't know your KPIs. You don't know if they're improving or getting worse. So sometimes people increase their ad budget, but they don't get more hires or they don't get a proportional amount of new hires because something in their funnel is not scalable. So they might get more applicants. They might spend more money, but their process isn't scaling. And so they might spend twice as much, but only get 20% more hires. That's what we want to avoid by having the data. And you know if your funnel is converting well, then you know if you're ready to increase the ad budget. But sometimes I talk with people and I say, based on your current result, you don't need more applicants. You need to get better at converting your applicants to hires. And that's what we want to help you determine with this data. All right, quick example. So this is, I love this little thing with the scotch paper looking stuff. It looks like a little homework. We're going to talk about why home care agencies should make database recruiting decisions. Because the thing is, every agency needs more caregivers. I have only in five years talked to maybe three agencies that were like, oh no, I'm getting plenty of hires every single month. And I love that for them. But very, very uncommon. Everybody needs more caregivers. But not everybody needs the same strategies. And what happens is you get webinars and conferences and things where people come together. And they're like, just tell me how to get more hires. And they'll talk to another agency. And the other agency owner is like, oh, I did this and now I got more hires. And you're like, that is great. I'm going to go do that. And it might work for them, but it might not. Because they have totally different markets. So let's see which one is right for each agency that we would recommend. Now, all of these strategies are good things. So if you're looking for three things to implement, you could implement all of these. But we find most agencies are limited in the amount of strategies that they can try right now, just from bandwidth, tolerance to change, budget. This is like a ton of what we do at CareWork with our agencies. Here's your data. Here's what we know is normal. Here's what we're going to recommend. So here are some basic conversions to track. Now, I train people on this all the time. I'm going to try and keep this brief because I really could talk about it forever. But we're going to go from the number of applicants that you get with your cost per applicant to how many book interviews, how many of those are successful interviews, and how many hires you get. And then you can work backwards to determine your cost per hire. This gives you a basic view of your recruiting funnel. And if you track this every week, which is what we recommend, you can see these changes over time. You can make immediate adjustments before it impacts your hiring results. And you can also forecast your future results. So how many applicants do you need? People ask me this all the time. Like, I'm getting 100 applicants. I'm getting 200 applicants. I'm getting 50 applicants. What's good? Well, it totally depends on your process. But here is the basic math. Now, this also is in your workbook. We have a workbook page that is dedicated to your funnel conversion. So you can do all of this math, including your applicant goal is on there. You're going to take your number of applicants, divide it by the number of hires, and then multiply it by your number of desired hires. So let's say you want 10 hires a month. Last month, you got 50 applicants, and you made three hires. We're going to do 50 divided by 3 times 10, and come to a total number that you need 167 applicants needed. Now, what do you do with this? Well, how much should you be spending on ads? You take that number of applicants needed and multiply it by your current cost per applicant. So I get asked this all the time. What should I be spending on Indeed? What should I be spending on my job ads? This is the answer. And now, if you do this, and you come up with a huge number, you're like, well, I cannot spend that much. You have a broken funnel, or you have a really high cost per applicant. It's probably one of those two things. It may be that you have unrealistic expectations. But most of the time, it's either your funnel is broken, so you're coming up with a really high number of applicants needed, because you're not converting enough applicants. And how many applicants is it taking you to get a hire? You can lower that by optimizing your funnel and studying these numbers, by getting more applicants to book an interview, more booked interviews to show up, more successful interviews to actually start work, step by step by step. Then you need fewer applicants to reach your goals. Then you have a good ad budget that is sustainable and scalable. That is the secret. It's not the only secret. But that really is what we do over and over and over again with people, is these are math problems. This is not big, scary strategy. These are math problems. And then once you have that data, then it's so easy to make a step-by-step plan. If you know the data, and you know what the data means, you can make a step-by-step plan and actually succeed, which is what we want to see. Here's the secret. Your market is your market. So what works for somebody in another agency may not work for you. And this is why I always say our training programs for recruiters are not teach Amanda Fish programs. They are not give Amanda Fish programs. They're teach Amanda Fish. Because what we see some agencies want is they want, give me a step-by-step of if I do this, this, and this, I'll succeed. But that will only get you so far. I could tell you right now, here's exactly what CareWork does. Here's what we say on our phone screens. And that is powerful information. But if you don't know how to take that and adapt that over time, it's going to do nothing for you. What you need is everybody on your team to understand the KPIs and understand what they mean, and have a regular rhythm for looking at them, so that then you come together and say, this KPI is down, here's what we know that means, and here's how we're going to fix it, so that then you have a scalable process. Because the other thing is, this is going to change through the years. This is not something that you can just do one time and be done. You have to, at a very foundational level and deep level, understand this, so that you can use it every month and every year to continue growing. And last, I want to encourage you, don't make rash decisions. Use your data. And if you're not sure about a new strategy, do a test. Say, we're going to try for the next 30 days, not requiring this application, and we're going to see if that improves our overall conversion enough to make it worth it. You can do literally a scientific test, but it's only helpful if you already have the data, and you really want to build long-term data. So, for us, we can go look at year over year over year over year with all of our clients and say, oh, you know what? July is always a really high-volume month, or January and February, we see a spike, or whatever it is. You want to build that data for your own agency, so that if you have a month where it all starts to get more challenging, you can look back to future, or to past years, and say, oh, you know what it is? Every year in this month, it's more challenging because of back to school, or the holidays, or summer, or whatever it is. And then you can also see, if you have a stagnant month, and you look back and go, well, not only is this concerning because this month is slow, but it's concerning because this month is typically a high month for us, which is putting us behind for the year. That is the context and power of your data. I'm going to calm down. We're going to talk about retention, also important, but I love this information.