Ep 11 Book Club Brene Brown

The podcast discusses the recent book club meetings and the conversations they sparked. They reflect on the different books they read and the varying perspectives that were shared. The focus is on the idea that the book club is more about the conversations it generates rather than the content of the books themselves. They discuss the accessibility of the author Brené Brown and the criticism she receives for her self-help approach. They debate whether her messages are appropriate and if they only apply to privileged individuals. They also talk about the importance of personal growth and the limitations that exist in achieving certain goals. Kia Ora, and welcome to Bellbirds Social Work Squawk, a podcast for all things social working. And today I have the lovely Michaela with us again, which is awesome, so we get to have a conversation. So welcome, Michaela. Thanks, Rachel. It's good to be back, and less nervous this time with the mini microphone. You were so fine last time. And we're going to talk a little bit about Book Club, because I think the last time you were on, we were talking about trauma, we'd done a couple of books, What Happened to You, and also The Body Keeps the Score. And then since then, we changed topics, and we did two books by Brené Brown. One was There to Lead, and the other one is The Gifts of Imperfection. So we had those two book clubs over the last couple of months. And so as we sit here at the end of the year, saying goodbye to 2023, we thought it was probably a good opportunity to reflect and have a chat about Book Club and see where the conversation takes us, because that's what conversations do, right? So let's dive in. So welcome. Thanks. I think the last book club in particular, like we were just saying, Rachel, was definitely the most thought-provoking. Yes, they've all been quite different. So we've had four book clubs now, and they've all been quite different. Different people turning up, different numbers, which is just fantastic, because it's a very fluid thing. People don't have to have read the book. If people are available, they can come. If they're interested, come along. We've had different people coming and going, which has been wonderful, but I definitely agree that the last book club we had, there was an opportunity for some good, robust conversation. I think some of the previous conversations have all been interesting, for sure, but we've all kind of agreed with each other, and this was the first time when it was really good to get some differing perspectives in different ways. So I agree. It's probably the book club I've had when I've gone away and thought more about it afterwards, and you say that you've had more conversations with people following that book club than you've had with previous book clubs. Yes, and I think that's the thing about the book club in itself. Despite the name and what that might allure you to think, the book club isn't so much about the content of the book, but the conversations that's generated around the table. The book serves as the catalyst for that, but yes, the juicy parts, the gold in it really is what people decide to bring, and often the conversation does go on a bit of a tangent, but it always starts with something related to the book. And so each book club, you come along, it doesn't matter if you've read the book or there's a nice review that I write that's on the table as you enter, but then the best part is actually going through the conversation starters, which either have a quote from the book, but also have, I suppose, thought-provoking messages to get people thinking about something related to a theme in the book. And so last time, the Gifts of Affection, we went with quotes and Christmas cards, because it was Christmas, and there was mixed feelings around the message Brene's trying to get across. Yes, and I think there were mixed feelings a little bit about Brene Brown herself. Yes. So some of the conversation diverted a little bit into the whole kind of self-healthy side of books, and whether or not Brene Brown, this is a lady who is a professor of social work, she has a PhD in social work, she's a renowned researcher, she's actually quite a weighty academic, but she writes books in a way that is very accessible, that people can read, and you, like with anything, you take what you want from something, and then if you were to read the book again, you might take something different from it because you're in a different frame of mind, or you're needing a different bit of inspiration, but she is a very accessible writer. And for some people, there was some comments a little bit around, she's got nothing new to say, that she's a bit self-healthy, in a kind of less than positive way of saying that. And I guess my thought around that was actually, in many ways, there are no new thoughts, right? It's quite difficult to come up with something that people haven't really thought of before. It's not about whether or not this is new or different, because at the end of the day, she's a researcher, so she's researching stuff, she's not likely to be creating something that's brand new necessarily, but it's how she frames it, it's how she writes it, and if it makes it accessible for people, if it's something that people can access and read and be inspired by and feel that they can incorporate in their life and be better for it, then, yep, that might be self-help, but actually, that's just growth, right? And that's just learning. But it was kind of interesting to see how people sat with that, that sort of some people really enjoy her work and others kind of felt that maybe she was a bit on the fringe, that it was a little bit too fluffy maybe. Yeah, and I mean, Brené Brown in her own podcast does talk a lot about, I suppose this criticism for her is constant, so yes, at our book club, but also for her herself when she goes to present things, this is a feedback she's getting back person to person, and so a lot of the time she discusses how people don't see her research style, which is qualitative analysis, so she looks at themes across literature, that's where, I guess, her shame research is around, yes, she does, she goes in to read lots of historical things and then comes out with her own analysis, own themes, trying to describe, I guess, feelings, emotions, those sorts of things, but in a way, yeah, that's palatable and that makes us understand it, and the feedback she receives most of the time is that there's no science behind it, there's no meat behind it, it's all a bit wiffy, waffy, feelings-based, which is why it lands most for me, being a very feeling person, and yeah, I generally think every time I do go back and read one of Brené Brown's books, I get something new from it, but also I think I treat her books almost like my own little pocket bible, you know, like I refer her back to them for reference, for things, so she really lands for me, and I think what was interesting as a personal reflection is that what really lands for me doesn't land at all for other people, and that maybe her approach to things and the language around things when we were delving into the quotes was quite, I don't know if patronizing is the right word, could be interpreted as patronizing for some, so kind of this belief that she puts out to the world that if you believe things enough about yourself, or if you try hard enough, you can change things. I'm not sure, yeah, do you think that that might be sort of the debate that you were catching, so it's like, is that an appropriate message to be sending to people, that, you know, you can change things, you can make the most of things, you can, is that a good message, is that a safe message, or is that only, I suppose, that will land for the privileged few? Yeah, and that's absolutely one of the conversations that we had, and I think, for me, the conversation was, in a way, less around Brene's message, but how some people take a message like that and extend it, because, you know, one of my favorite quotes from Wayne Dyer, who, again, is very self-help-y, one of my favorite quotes is, if you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change, right, which is basic reframing, and I think that when we talk about, you know, if you want something, then go for it, you know, strive for it, but if you want to be something, then you can be it, and I think on a personal journey, in terms of the way I read Brene Brown, in terms of, you know, she talks about courage, she talks about vulnerability, I think those are attributes within us, personally, that we can develop, and we can grow, and we can have a sense of becoming that, and we can always do better. Where I think our conversation took us is that, for some people, they take concepts around, there are no barriers, I mean, I used to always say about my dad that the only barrier to my dad was his own belief, like, if he wanted to do something, he would give it a go, but that doesn't mean he was any good at it, but he would try, and he'd have fun in the trying, and I think there's something sort of great about that, he had, I mean, I was so jealous of my dad, he had this huge amount of confidence, and this self-belief, and, you know, he wrote a book, never got published, no one was interested, but his goal was not to be a published author, his goal was to write a book, right, so that's about your personal journey, and your personal growth. Where I think some people take some of this self-help stuff, where I think the conversation in our book club was, the potential risk comes when it's about, you can be whatever you want to be, you are only limited by your self-belief, in a way that's, like, unrealistic. So, for example, I'm never going to be an astronaut. No matter how much I want to be an astronaut, that's not something that could happen for me, you know, like, they're just things that I'm limited by in terms of, yeah, and so I think that becomes a privileged thing, where it's like, if I want to excel at a thing, you know, if I wanted to be a published author, as opposed to just write a book, then I need to have the time and space to be able to do that, which means I don't have to probably work several jobs, raise families, pay mortgages. I need an editor, I need a publisher, I need people who can support me. You know, it's a hard road to become a published author, and there's aspects of that that require an element of privilege that not everybody has access to. So, you know, for people for whom literacy is an issue, you know, for whom they are adults who are yet to be fully able to read and write, they're unlikely to be a published author. It's a really, really long road to get to that, that probably they can't afford or have time or the capacity to be able to do that, or whatever. So there was that debate around, is that a limiting belief to say, well, no, they can't do that. You shouldn't be saying that people can't do that. Is that a limiting belief that actually we're just allowing to get in our way? Or actually, is it a little bit flippant, a little bit unsafe to be saying to people, you can be whatever you want to be, you just need to work hard enough, because for some people, there are intangible things to hope for, and it's not fair necessarily to create an expectation or a hope or a desire that's unrealistic. No, I think those are all good points, and I think that's definitely where the conversation was leading. And it's a good analysis of, I think, the message people were trying to get across within the book club space. I think for me personally, I feel like Brene Brown is targeting a certain audience with what she's writing. And I think 100% you have to be cautious around the context you use some of her teachings in, but also not taking her teachings out of context. I think Brene has a big emphasis on this thing called wholehearted living. And so what that means is you're living a life that's really true to you and living in a way that aligns with your values and not putting on a mask and pretending you're someone different and just being yourself. And I think part of the gift of imperfection is really embracing who you are, all the parts of who you are and liking them anyway, perhaps, or using them in a way that will help you live a life that's meaningful. So yes, I respect the fact that in certain contexts, it wouldn't be very helpful to say to people, oh, well, if you put your mind to it, you can do anything because, yeah, that's not true. But I think for others, Brene's teachings around having courage to move past feeling insecure about who you are or embracing the fear and doing it anyway, sort of the classic Nike slogan there, is really helpful to move towards wholehearted living. Because often, there's things for all of us that we've always wanted to do or things and that are within our reach. So just say getting into public speaking, trying new sports, really small things. It doesn't have to be big, extravagant achievements like being an astronaut. There's certain feelings that get in the way that hold us back from being courageous around the fear of being judged, the fear of not doing good enough. And I think those feelings aren't for a certain group of people. I think that's just the human experience, right? Fear is an innate human experience. And so I think what Brene's meaning is, yeah, you can look to those gifts, the gifts of inception around feeling fear and not feeling good enough, and you can channel them and understand them in a way that doesn't paralyze you from living a life that's meaningful, that doesn't prevent you from doing things that you want to do. And I think, yeah, my caution, personally, around the message that for certain people that messaging is not helpful is that I think everyone's different in terms of the things that they want to achieve. And we meet people on the level that they're at, particularly in social work practice. But we also do have to be aware that we could be the only people that do hold hope for them. And by not pushing that across in the way that we interact with others, then is that helpful as well? So I think I can see two sides of it quite clearly, like a see-saw, and I appreciate both perspectives. And I think what was really good about the book club is that these perspectives were getting put out there and that there was people disagreeing kindly and politely around the table. And I think that, if anything, that's the beauty of the book club is being able to sit in a safe space with people and really have some of these brave, courageous conversations, right? Oh, absolutely. I think you're absolutely right in what you said. I think sometimes our want to protect people, maybe, from disappointment or from, you know, quote, unquote, failure. Our own limiting beliefs for them can get in the way of what they themselves want to do, maybe. But yeah, I think, you know, I guess I'm going to repeat myself, but for me, Brené Brown is around, who am I as a person? So if I'm leaning into vulnerability, if I'm learning to be courageous, if I'm learning to put aside the fears, the anxiety, to accept myself, flaws and all, to be authentic, then that enables me to do the things in life that I want to do, that bring me joy, that bring out my best self. And that's about how I then show up in the world. It's not the action. It's not the end result that I'm driving towards. It's being the best version of myself that is the result that I'm looking for. And then that has a ripple effect in how I live my life. And that's how I see it. Yes. And I think that that's a universal message. Like, that's applicable to astronauts, 100%. But it's also applicable to anyone, you know, like living your own best life, whatever that looks like for you at whatever level you're at. But for me personally, the conversation at Book Club did definitely generate some thinking around all of that and around, yeah, maybe understanding my own privilege in terms of how I interpret the content and then how I transfer the content onto different people that I support or different people I interact with in my personal life. But I also liked being challenged that potentially Brene Brown isn't the all-knowing guru. Yeah. I mean, for me, she will always be on a pedestal high up somewhere, which is fine. But I think this gets me onto thinking about what we were talking about just earlier today, Rachel, around firm beliefs loosely held. That's been something that's been at the center of our conversations today before this podcast. So a good friend of mine shared that quote with me on a run a few weeks ago, and it got me thinking. So it's totally fine for me to hold Brene Brown on this pedestal and firmly believe that she's, you know... Right. Yeah, a social work guru. However, I need to hold that belief loosely in the sense where just because I think that doesn't mean it to be true. And just because I think that doesn't mean that there's not other ways of looking at it, kind of like your perception quote. And I think the thing I loved about the last book club is we all came away sort of, I hope, reflecting on that. Exactly. And I think it's the mark of a good conversation when you're still thinking about it the next day. Oh, 100%. You know, because when we all smile and nod and agree with each other and go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, yeah, good chat, good chat, but you walk away unchanged, then it's not as impactful, obviously. And just to sort of do the other side of your quote, so we were talking about strong beliefs loosely held rather than loose beliefs strongly held, and how important it is to be clear on your beliefs, understand where your beliefs come from, but have that flex rather than end up with these kind of loose beliefs, but we get cornered and we fight for something that we don't actually even really believe in. And actually, that happens quite a lot. But going back to something that you touched on as well, before you talked about hope, and I think that that's something also that's really important to capture, because I think in our role within social work or the wider support service that we deliver, sometimes we might be the only people in someone's life that is able to give them hope. And one of the lightning talks at conference was by Sarah Berkeley, who spoke for five minutes simply on be the hope in someone's life and how strong a motivator hope can be and how important that is. And I think that's something that I just wanted to kind of pick up from what you were saying that actually, and I sort of twin that a little bit, because for me, the lesson that Brené Brown talks a lot about is around vulnerability and how we can build trust by being vulnerable. But that often requires someone to start to be vulnerable, like someone has to be the one to make the first move when you're developing a relationship, someone has to be willing to be the vulnerable one. And I think that if we can be vulnerable and we can share ourselves and be authentic and show that we are just human because we are just people after all, then for others, you know, that allows a kind of the perception to fall away and for people to realize that actually they're just a person too and that there is hope, right? They can still achieve what they want to do, whatever's going on in their life, they can move through it. It is but a moment in time. Things do change. There is hope for a different outcome. And I think sometimes we need to share more of ourselves to enable people to be able to see that in another person. Oh, yeah, 100%. I think, yeah, in book club, it obviously took one brave person around the table that would have initially been like, no, actually, I disagree and like put their hand up and sort of test the water in that space. And if it wasn't for that one person showing courage and being brave, then potentially we would have still sat around and all nodded. Yeah, Renee Brown's great, which would have appeased me 100%. But is it as meaningful to have those conversations or is it more meaningful to have the open, honest, true conversation that we did end up having? Because, yeah, the power of what that generated the next day, I mean, we're still talking about it now, a few weeks on. Personally, both of us, so powerful, right? And, yeah, really brave of whoever that was. Not that I can remember just because everyone just sort of, you know, it's a table full of mostly quite opinionated social workers, isn't it? So everyone just chips in and starts going. But, yeah, it was really cool and it's really powerful and I really hope that that can be a space that continues to be brave and feel safe enough for people to be brave. Well, and it's interesting listening to you talk because one of the things that we covered was what's the difference between brave and courageous? Yeah, that's right. And we talked about fear within that because according to, you know, some dictionary that may or may not be correct, you know, bravery is a quality where we don't feel fear. We just might be a brave person, right? Whereas courage is to feel the fear but do it anyway. And we had people around the table who said, actually, they can't remember the last time they felt fear. It's not something that they kind of almost allow in their lives. And then there are other people, certainly like me, who's afraid every day but is kind of trying to just do it anyway. And the difference, I guess, between a sense of bravery and a sense of courage and what that might mean. But wherever it comes from in circumstances like that, to be able to absolutely be the person to say, oh, I might have a different opinion or I might have a thought. Not that my thought is right, but it's just a thought that might be different. I think we could probably utilize in our workspaces much more the healthy debate rather than the kind of group think mentality. Because how many times have we probably all been in meetings where we haven't felt able to talk openly and we all kind of smile and nod. And then you have your corridor meeting where everybody leaves the meeting and then they stand in the corridor and they actually go, oh, I should have said this and I didn't agree with her at all. And it's like, well, why didn't you say it in the meeting? And that's partly because that's not a safe space to do that. But it's also because someone has to be courageous and say, hang on a second, I have a thought that might be different to what we're all agreeing. Because often we're not the only ones that think. I agree. And I guess the question is, how are we building space in our organizations that allows for these sorts of conversations to be held? I'm not quite sure what it is about or what it was about the book club that day. And it'd be good to get my Brene Brown hat on and analyze it and look for themes and patterns and all that sort of thing. But what was it? What were the contributing factors that allowed people to feel a certain way where we could have these sorts of conversations? And if we could figure that out, then how would we put that into organizational spaces to allow people to courageously challenge ideas, practice, all those sorts of things, and then maintain the courageous conversations even in our clinical work with clients, with people that we support in the community? Because it's also important to sometimes have courage to say something. Because often those things are really important and they're left unsaid because of fear. But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be shared anyway. Absolutely. And I can only say that because I've now started to get way old and way long in my career that the fear of judgment or what are people going to say about me or what are they going to think about me becomes less and less. And I think, I don't mind if I look like an idiot. I'm going to ask the question anyway. But 10 years ago, 20 years ago, there would have been lots of things I wouldn't have said because I would have thought, oh, it's not my place or these people seem to know what they're talking about. Maybe I've missed something. I don't want to look stupid. I don't want to argue. I don't really know. And all that kind of internal narrative that freezes us from being able to take action and be courageous. And so, yeah, I think there is a kind of challenge to create environments of safety, I guess, and encourage creativity, encourage innovation. Because I think, you know, again, talking about things, if we always do the same thing, we're always going to get the same result. Actually, we need to do things differently. And part of that is about listening to others. If I'm only ever listening to my voice, I'm never going to learn anything new. You know, I love that sense of the book club to feel a little bit challenged or a little bit comfortably uncomfortable. Yeah. You know, it's like you're safe, but you're also stretching a little bit, thinking a little bit, you know, like, actually, this is what I think. But, oh, yeah, different perspectives. Maybe what I think isn't what I think. Or maybe it's something, you know, all of that kind of exploration, that's really healthy. The conversation, for some reason, I use the whole analysis of book club and around courageous conversations and being brave and the importance of sharing our ideas and living a whole hearted life. It really gets me thinking about the theory, and I'm going on a bit of a tangent, but internal family systems. So, you know, like each of us carries around three little men, that's how I imagine it in my head. And so one of the men is a firefighter, one of them is a manager with a little briefcase, and the other one is an exile, which in my head looks like Gollum of Lords of the Rings. Well, the theory talks about how each of these characters exist within us, and they do different jobs at different times. And so I think, based on that theory, what happens that holds people back in terms of speaking the truth and having these sorts of challenging but inspiring conversations, which are really helpful, is that the exile sits there and it reminds us, Gollum says to us, oh, remember the last time that you spoke up, what happened? Remember how you felt so embarrassed and shame and you felt not good enough and those sorts of messages? And they throw that in there to the point that the manager comes along and goes, right, I'm going to do something about this, Gollum. Go to the corner of the room, like, what we're going to do so that you don't come up is we're going to keep our opinions to ourselves. Or we're going to prove to everyone why we're right, or we're going to, you know, like protect us, sort of. And then when that doesn't go right in the conversation and we're more and more challenged, the firefighter comes in and goes, oh, I have to put the flames out now and gets incredibly defensive and storms out the room to, you know, like, just control everything. And, you know, all those parts are super valuable and we should be friends and all, but I think that that's what happens, sort of, from a, I guess, psychological perspective, right? And it would just be interesting, yeah, again, like how do we create environments where we're actually going, you know what? Gollum's okay. Like, it's okay to feel that way. Like, we can all feel these insecurities and bringing those to the forefront, which I think, for me, to summarize is the point of the gift of inflection. Renee Brown's going, yeah, like, this is what Gollum's going to be talking about in your head. Like, these are things that we all carry around with us. We all have a Gollum, but then how we befriending Gollum and not trying to manage Gollum and not trying to put Gollum's fire out like a firefighter and feeling courageous enough to do things that are important to us, knowing that Gollum's going to sit there and say those things. I'm not sure if that makes sense. No. Yeah. I just got this image of Gollum pulling around my head now. But no, that's exactly right. And often, you know, again, it seems to be the day of sayings, but, you know, what we resist persists, right? So, if we never actually acknowledge that maybe we're afraid, if we just try to suppress Gollum's voices, they're just going to keep turning up and turning up, right? So, actually, we need to say, yeah, I'm sitting here and I feel a bit nervous. And I know that I sit there and when I've got something I need to say and I'm starting to wait for my time to say it, I'm going to get, I get a bit nervous and I can feel my heart, you know, just speeding up a little bit and I become really self-conscious. And then I start to talk and people talk over me and I'm like, oh, my God, no one's listening. And, you know, all that monkey chatter keeps going round and round around my head. But that's all inside and you've got to do it anyway. But it is also, I guess, acknowledging that that's what happens to a lot of people, you know, from the outside point of view to everybody else sitting in that meeting with me. I know that a lot of people, you know, perceive me as being somebody who's, you know, articulate and confident and has got her shit together and knows what she's doing. And inside, I'm like dying slowly, kind of just trying to get my point across, you know, because it's all just a facade, a lot of it. So we have to have the courage to be able to do it. And if we all just try a little bit, you know, what a difference that can make, right? Well, everyone's got a Gollum and I think the acknowledgement of that is a good place to start. The gifts of imperfection, the gifts of Gollum, maybe. Yeah, I think, again, it's the most valuable content from Brené Brown, but was very happy, actually, to be challenged on some of my beliefs and then very interested around how we can put some of the safe, nice feelings that were in book club that day that allowed us to have these conversations into our workspaces, because I think that it would be quite magic if that was able to be transferred over. Excellent food for thought, really. As a little plug for the book club, it starts again next February. We've actually posted on our Facebook page asking for some suggestions of books because, I mean, I don't want to constantly be the people or the person picking the books. You know, Brené Brown went down like a lead fart. No, but not because of that reason, but because, you know, I would like people's feedback in terms of what they want to talk about and what's relevant for them, because the book club is a space for everyone. So yeah, feel free to go on the Facebook page and write down what you would like to read. Be brave. And yeah, hopefully in the new year, we can just continue on having these amazing, robust conversations that really challenge our social work practice, but also just our general way of thinking. Absolutely. So watch this space for the next book. The date will be coming soon. It will be in February. Again, everybody is welcome. You do not have to be a social worker. You don't have to be a social worker. And you do not have to have read the book because Michaela does an amazing job of doing book reviews and conversation starters. And it's just a space to come and hang out and connect with others, share some time, share some ideas, and hopefully leave a little bit inspired. So thank you so much, Michaela, for your time today. Always lovely to chat. I honestly think we could sit here for hours and hours, but that might get boring for the listeners. But thank you so much for your time and for doing book club because it's really quite a special thing that we're able to offer. So happy new year. Yes, happy new year. See you in Feb. See you in February.