Pup Locrain Interview

This is a conversation between two individuals discussing various topics related to identity, kink, and self-discovery. The guest, Puplocrian, identifies as a leather person, a pup, and a geeky queer educator. They talk about their journey into the kink community, their discovery of a whole community of like-minded individuals, and how it changed their perception of themselves. They also discuss their experiences with body confidence and the importance of embracing all aspects of their identity. Puplocrian shares their experiences as a pup and how it influences their play as both a top and a bottom. Overall, the conversation highlights the importance of self-acceptance and finding joy in being true to oneself. Welcome to Fat Chicks Month. We are continuing our Pride Month series, and this is fantastic. For those of you who are regular listeners of the show, you know a couple weeks ago I had on Dr. Nick McGlinnis talking about bear identities, specifically in the UK, and bear bodies. And I reached out to Puplocrian, who is on the show today, because they have a very strong pup identity, and I love exploring this. I think identity theory was what got me into grad school, so I love talking to people about their identities and how they came and what they mean. So Puplocrian is, like I said, a leather person, a pup, a geeky queer educator. They have been fantastic in the community. They have an amazing Fat Life website, so welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Oh my gosh, I love the warm welcome. So good to have you on. I have been following you. We're fairly close to each other in Sacramento, but haven't done much in public, or engaged much in public together, thanks to COVID. So it's a delight to finally get to sit down and talk to you for a while. So you came out and active into the community a little, what, five, six years ago, 2017, right? Yeah, so I had discovered kink before I was 18, but obviously wasn't involved in the community, so I was one of those people that my 18th birthday was like, oh, I get to do a lot more than vote now. So I got involved pretty much right away, I would say within a month or two, and I've just been going ever since. So yeah, you are a very different generation than me. So how did you discover kink before 18? So a lot of it was reading. I love to read. I've always loved to read. And in high school, I started reading romance books. I mean, you know, there, there, there. But I kind of discovered the activities first, and I was like, oh, this is, like, these are things you can do. You know, and I experimented a little bit with, like, high school crushes and things like that. But it was, it was really close to 18 that I discovered that life, and I discovered that, oh, there is a whole community around this. So that's kind of how I came into, oh, I want to go to munches, I want to go to events, things like that. What was it like to discover there's a whole community of kinksters out there that like the same type of thing you do? It was interesting, because I think especially when you're young, there can be a lot of shame attached to liking something different than the norm. You know, being in high school and being very involved in high school, I was constantly exposed to other people. And there was definitely a status quo of what was acceptable or not. So to discover that there were not only other people into it, but, like, people who, they were everywhere. You know, it wasn't like the, I think the stereotypical, you think of the outcasts are doing this. No, I mean, you know, there are doctors, lawyers, judges, senators, everyone. You know, it is something that a lot of people enjoy. And it is not something that is bad or only the weirdos like it, you know. Well, and on that note, we ran into each other at Northwest other a few weeks ago. And when I walked in, the entire front staff were members of my old research group. It kind of threw me because, of course, we never talked about it at work. And I walk in, I'm like, oh, my God, there's like everybody I used to work with is now signing me in. You bring up the, you know, the idea that, you know, there was kind of a status quo. And you identify as queer. Were you out as queer in high school? No, I was not. My queer journey started around the time I entered the kink community. I actually grew up deeply religious. My father was pastor of a Presbyterian church. I actually went on after high school to briefly lead youth group and be and do that. So at the time, I remember in high school, I finally figured out like my senior year, I was bisexual through a series of events. But it really wasn't until I got really into this community and also COVID that I had time to self-reflect and like figure out my identity and who I actually was. What was it like coming from that deeply religious background? That's a thing you and I have in common. I grew up with Baptist parents. What was it like to discover that you had this other side to you and then have to come to terms with it as somebody who'd been raised in the church? I mean, it was actually a lot easier than I, it might have been in other situations. I had, like I said, I'd been kinky for a while. And I had had an incident at my church and, you know, it was bad. It was, I had a girlfriend whose parents were also in the church. They somehow found out that their child was into kinky things. And I was associated with that. That's how that all went down. So at the time, I was really not, not liking the church too much, you know, between COVID and just like a lot of stuff. I was questioning a lot. As I started, like, thinking about who I was and like how I felt about my identities in life, you know, a big part of me was just like, eh, fuck it. I'm going to see what I am. And I'm just going to embrace that. So it definitely took a lot. I will say it was not entirely easy. There were a couple of breakdowns going through there and being like, oh, my gosh, I am a horrible human. I can't believe I'm this way. But there was also kind of a fire to discover who am I? You know, I'm out of high school. I'm going to, at the time, I was at Sacramento State University now. So I'm finally kind of away from a small conservative town I grew up in. So it was time for me to figure some things out. And, oh, boy, did I. So for a lot of people, when they discover they're kinky and they're queer and all of that good stuff, it changes the way they feel about their body. How did your relationship with your own body change? Very positively in many ways. I remember going to the Bolt, which, for those who aren't in Sacramento, is Sacramento's leather in gay bar. And people were just coming up to me and being like, oh, hello. You know, and I wasn't used to this. Even in college, you know, I transferred to Sacramento State. I already had one degree. So I was just going to get another. So I wasn't really involved in social life. I was there to play the tuba and get a piece of paper that cost way too much money. So to enter a space like the Bolt where people were, like, attracted to me and coming up to me and, like, interacting with me in that way, that was, like, I think the most massive confidence booster. And, you know, suddenly I started looking at myself like other people were looking at me. I was like, oh, damn, I do actually look kind of good. And with that came confidence. And as I gained more confidence, it, you know, it's kind of this cycle. I was like, oh, I do look good. Wow. You know, and, you know, going on to wear things that, like, I never thought I would wear. You know, I'll wear a harness and a jockstrap, and that's it. I don't think high school me would have even considered the possibility, you know. But just, like, learning to be comfortable in my skin and just enjoy being me. You know, again, as with figuring out my identities, I wanted to enjoy being me, and that included all aspects of who I am. Well, and as a kinky, queer, black, male-presenting person, there's so much of this world that tells you that's not okay. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, when you're out there, and you post great pictures on FetLife. I love your FetLife account. Thank you. Does any part of you, like, feel rebellious about it, or is it just, I am hot, and I'm going to share these images? Oh, I mean, I sometimes do feel rebellious, but not in the, like, I'm fighting the system way. It's more like there are, you know, I, of course, have come across people who want to shame me for being who I am. And so, you know, every time I post one of those pictures, I'm like, well, I guess you can stand at the door and hate them, you know. If you want to hate me for being a fat, black, queer, kinky, polyamorous human being, that's fine. You can watch me go live my best life. So I guess there is a bit of a rebellious nature to the, like, I don't give a fuck what other people think. I think I'm hot in this picture, and I'm going to post it. But also, I just enjoy sharing, you know. One of the many kinky identities I have is an exhibitionist. And so I really enjoy being able to share pictures. It's also been nice because as I've been getting more into content creation, I'm getting more into photography. And, well, I always have a subject to use on myself. And, you know, I figure if I can shoot, edit, and do everything with my own one human being self, it gets so much easier when there's other people involved. So there's a lot going on there. Well, speaking of kinky identities, you identify as a pup. And this has gotten more popular. There's more visibility of pup plays. But I'm not sure people actually, if you're not into pup play, really get it. So what is it to you? And, like, kind of how does it manifest in your world? You know, to me, it's like, the best way I can describe it, it's a part of me. Like, I am a puppy. And that can mean a lot of things. I'm easily excitable. I love when people get me treats. I do appreciate head scratches. I love getting compliments, you know. So, I mean, all of those things by themselves, I know a lot of people that like those. But for me, that's specific to I am a puppy. You know, that's what I do. It also influences how I play. As a top and a bottom, I tend to be an energetic player. I like feeding off of other people. You know, like, if I'm topping someone and they are very, like, squirmy and, like, happy and giggly, that's, like, my thing. You know, I love having scenes where we're, like, laughing and yelling and, like, you know, just going all around. It's play. And as a bottom, I really enjoy having those energetic scenes. You know, I love having a toy thrown for me. I love having any fun kind of play. But it's also nice to curl up and get cuddles sometimes. You know, it's nice to feel protected and, like, in that. Well, and it allows a form of play, right? Because so much of the world is telling you you have to be serious about everything. So it does allow that play and that joy to come out. And I think you can hear it in your voice when you talk about it. You get all smiley and happy. And, I mean, a big part of it for me also is in my vanilla life, I work in very broad terms in education. And there is, I place, at least for myself personally, an emphasis on professionalism. You know, when I'm interacting with students, I am the teacher. I am, you know, I always tell kids, I am not your friend. However, I will be friendly with you. And I believe that's super important for myself because it's a job to me. You know, it is a profession and it's something I want to take seriously. So when I'm outside of that, when I'm outside of the professional realm, I like to have fun. You know, I don't want my kink to be a chore. I don't want to have to feel like I'm working because then I go into that professional mode and that's not fun. You know, so for me, it's definitely like I'm going to have fun outside of this. That's what this is about. And you identify as a switch, which is still somewhat a contested identity in the kink world. Not everybody is comfortable with a switch. So how did you settle on that, at least for now, because, you know, things always change. But for now, how did you identify, how did you come to settle on switching as an important part of your identity? It was a process, for sure. So I actually started as a sub. That's when I came into the community, I was the bottom in the sub. Had a couple of bad experiences and was like, you know what, I'm going to go top. So I went and topped for like three and a half years. And I was a good top. But eventually, and I remember it was my first DomCon, I was wrestling with a friend and I ended up getting pinned to the mat. Hadn't thought about being submissive in years. I was like, oh, I top people, that's what I do. But, you know, I'm laying on my back with someone over me and I'm like, oh, wow, yeah, this is, I like this. Not bad. I like losing. And so that kind of began the process of, again, discovering, okay, well, I don't hate this, but I also really like topping. And that's how I figured out I'm a switch. And honestly, I don't even know if I like the word switch, because I like to do what I like to do. I don't even like to think of it as I top and I bottom. Yes, that is true in the way that we would categorize things. I like to do what I like to do. I have a whole long list of activities that I enjoy doing, some of which fall under bottoming, some of which fall under topping. But I just do what I do and have fun. Do you top and bottom to the same type of people? What do you mean? So in terms of, like, gender and ethnicity and identities and ages, does it matter who you top and bottom to? Because some people are very specific on different aspects of who they want to play with. The only thing that changes is if you are a cishet white man or a cis white man, I guess you couldn't be het. Well, I guess you could, but anyway, if you are a cis white man, I have to know you and trust you. The bar is going to be very high. Other than that, to bottom for you specifically, other than that, I don't really care. I'm pansexual, so your gender, you know, that doesn't really matter to me. What really matters is do we click, do we have shared values, and are our play styles compatible? I've met some people who play very seriously, and that's just not. Yeah, I refer to that as the angry German dominatrix, and while that is definitely a thing and I can get into it and I'm very good at it, my German side very much comes out, that's not the only way to do King. No, absolutely. I've met a few angry German dominatrixes, one who was actually German. She's actually very nice outside of play, but when she plays, I'm like, oh, wow, you are intense. One of your other identities is agender, and you're the first other agender person I've had on the show other than myself. So what does that mean to you? The question that everyone asks when they see my profile. So to me, agender is kind of beyond non-binary even, and when I talk to people, oftentimes I'll just simplify it down to I'm non-binary, because that's what people tend to understand and that's what people get. But for me, agender is I don't associate with a gender. Man, woman, or other. Whereas non-binary tends to be I am not man or woman, I am this other gender. But I'm like, no. To me, it's just not a thing. And it goes really well with my pansexuality, because for me, gender doesn't matter in attraction. And I'm not saying everyone should totally do this, but to me, I really don't care how you identify. I will, of course, respect your identity and how you identify, but when I find out if I'm attracted to someone, their gender, their identity does not figure into that attraction. And so for myself personally, it was just like, I don't have gender? That's not something that really, you know, can I click option E, none of the above? I do find it ironic that by identifying as agender, that's what you are. But at the same time, it's nothing. It's Schrodinger's gender. I simultaneously have one. So for me, being agender, it's not an identifier for me. When I think about who I am, I don't think of a gender. I don't think about I'm a musician, I'm a teacher, I'm a kinkster, I'm polyamorous. I don't think I'm nonbinary. I don't think I'm a man. It's just not something that is me. Well, and for me, there's just no attachment to, like, what general structures I have. Like, it's what I'm working with. Like, it's all a prop, and you can switch out. But what I find interesting is pretty much every other gender identity, like, they're concerned about the bits. So when you're talking to somebody, like, how do you get around, say, what bits you have is unimportant, like, but without making them feel disrespected? Right. I mean, when I'm talking to people and, you know, that topic comes up, I usually just say, I'm like, I am absolutely fine and want to work with what you have. You know, I say, you have what you have. I want to work with that. You know, and it's not and that's not saying I don't care about it. You know, it's not I don't care what you got, whatever. I'm saying, hey, you have your you have what you are working with. Let me like, let me work with that. You know, it's just in my way, it's kind of my way of saying you are a unique individual, even like people like, you know, there are how many billion penis owners. What works for Joe doesn't work for Craig. You know, what works for Nancy doesn't work for Stephanie. All these names being made up, of course, I really want to like when we're talking about that, bring that to the individual being like, hey, I know you've got what you're working with. Let me know, you know, let me know what I can do to make you feel good. I like that approach because it's very individualized. You're not saying I'm going to treat you like a cookie cutter partner because you resemble other partners in this way. It allows for more flexibility. So, you know, you come out into the Sacramento community and it's interesting. I've had a number of folks from Sacramento, obviously, because that's where my biggest network is on the show. And everybody has had a different experience of race in the community. What has been your experience as a black person in the kink world? So I can start specifically in Sacramento. Pretty good. Shout out to Shadeo, who is running Sacramento Black Kinksters. I think that is one of the strongest, like most organized groups specifically for black kinksters that there are. And I love it. So my experience with race in Sacramento community specifically been great. You know, I think it's actually one of the safest and most accepting communities I've been in for my personal experience. I can't speak for, like, every black person, but, you know, or every person of color. But for me, Sacramento has actually been great. Now, taking it to a wider community, mixed results, you know. I also travel a lot to L.A. My partner lives in L.A., so I do a lot of work at the L.A. dungeons and play a lot there, too. And I've definitely seen more forward fetishization there. You know, I've definitely been approached for some things that I'm like, it feels like you're treating me like a sex toy, not like a whole human being. And I'm not afraid to say that to people. You know, especially when it comes, I might be the timid, shy flower who doesn't like to send back my order. But if you started fetishizing me, I'm going to be like, okay, we're going to talk about this very directly. And so I have had kind of mixed experiences, and I think it really depends, number one, geographically, and number two, the type of scene. I've had the worst experiences in swingers' communities. I don't do swingers' communities anymore. That's just I've had one too many really bad ones. Whereas the kink and leather communities have been better. I won't say perfect, but it's been better. So just a quick note to listeners, Shadeo is going to be on next week's episode after this. I had to get him on, too, because I've been, you know, I met him when he initially came into the community. He's great. But you bring up L.A., and I spend a fair amount of time in L.A. as well. And let's talk about body size in L.A. Because L.A. has a different relationship to body size, which is also geographically, it depends on where you're at. So as a bigger-bodied person, how are you received in the L.A. kink community? You know what? Surprisingly well. I don't think you know why. I definitely L.A. is just everything. The culture of L.A. is fit, thin, like model. Probably has something to do with the music or every industry, every arts industry being there. But the culture of L.A. is very glitz, glam, and trim, shall we say. With that being said, I have, I tend to cultivate things very carefully. In that, if I go to a space and I get weird vibes from it, I'm already not going back, you know. But I have found people, groups, relationships where me being a bigger-bodied person was either welcomed, not in a fetishizing way, but like, hey, we love it, you know, you are being yourself. Or at the very least, it wasn't an issue. It wasn't like people were like, oh, my gosh, you're amazing. But people weren't hating either. It was just, hey, you're here, welcome, come as you are. So it definitely takes a little bit more looking, and not every space is going to be like that. I've tended to find going into queer spaces is a lot easier. So I'm thinking of spaces like 910 WeHo, Threshold 2 to an extent. But spaces that are like majority queer or bringing in a lot of queer people tend to be a little bit safer to be a bigger-bodied person. And shout out to 910 WeHo. They are a very fun group. Eventually I will have one of their organizers on the show because I do like them. It's interesting you bring up queer spaces and being bigger-bodied because when we were talking to Dr. McLynn, he brought up that there is a limit to that acceptability, at least in their communities. Like, you can be big, and that's great. But if you are what people identify as super fats or infinite fats, that is not seen as accepted. In more of the kind of mainstream kink world or queer kink world or the pup world, is there a limit to what that body acceptance is in your experience? In the pup community, definitely. So I do play in pup spaces, and I haven't had any bad experience yet. But if you think puppy, oftentimes you think white twink to maybe lighter end of jock wearing a bulldog harness and a Mr. S puppy hood. And I'm sure everyone can picture it. I say, oh, puppy, and they're like, oh, yeah, skinny white guy wearing Mr. S gear. And absolutely not knocking that. I think they're cute as heck. But I don't check any of the boxes except for the fact that I wear Mr. S gear. You know, I am bigger-bodied. I am a person of color. I am not entirely clean-shaven, which is another thing puppies do. I don't know. But I guess I just maybe haven't encountered spaces where that's super enforced. But I would definitely say the pup community, or at least the visible pup community, tends to fall into one way, and other people don't really get as much exposure, you know. So you bring up wearing specific gear. And this week we have Ms. Pucksaplenty, who is wonderful and does SatCon and is kinky and all of that. And they brought up that it can be very difficult to find kink gear if you are bigger-bodied at all. And if it is, it's a special order or it's extra expensive. For pup gear, because pup gear is very limited. I mean, there's like the tails and the mask and, you know, some of the harnesses. But it's not like you're wearing a full-body pup suit, you know. Although they do exist. They do. So how is it finding – I mean, is there a fat tax on pup gear? Yeah. I mean, and I think it – since I will say, and we can talk about this in a bit, puppy play, at least in like the more historical sense, has been very tied to leather. And, I mean, with leather there's a fat tax, right? I can definitely not fit into any Mr. S. clothing, like shirts, pants. Their harnesses and other things are definitely more accessible. And they do keep consistent pricing throughout sizes. So I didn't have to pay more for my harness than someone who bought a medium. But if I wanted to, and this is something I'm dealing with right now, if I want to get a leather shirt, it's like kind of my next big purchase, I'm going to have to do that custom order. And it's definitely going to cost me. So to a degree, I think, yeah, there's a fat tax on pup gear. But it may not be as visible and it may not be as hard on the wallet as others say. Where do you go to find great pup gear? Because I always love to give a shout out to great vendors. Right. Okay. So I – this actually kind of goes into another point I wanted to talk about. Puppy gear has become a lot more diverse. I go for the Mr. S. gear because it's quite durable and kind of built for some roughness. However, there are great vendors like Grunge Bunny who make some super detailed aesthetic hoods. I won't speak to durability. And I'm sure they are durable. They are probably built to play, too. They just tend to look, at least to me, a little bit thinner. Maybe not as, like, robust as the Mr. S. stuff. But I think they're beautiful and I, you know, I love them. So that's a good vendor, Grunge Bunny, and they make puppy hoods. I think they are making bunny hoods now, too. I'm trying to think of other places. I can't think of anything else for hoods. But for harnesses, both of my harnesses are Mr. S. harnesses. But there's Rough Trade in Los Angeles. They have some amazing things. And if you are searching, you can always go to Etsy. There are countless, just really creative people. You said there was another point you wanted to bring up? Oh, yes. That was kind of the way puppy play has evolved. I don't know if you want to get into that. Please, please. Okay. So puppy play, historically, like I said, has kind of been tied to leather. You know, you think of like the older pups, and this is even before they had hoods and gear. It was like submissive, like puppy boys who, you know. Puppy play has been taken a hold of by the social media surgeons. And I'm not saying this is a bad thing. But puppy play has become almost a visual style. You know, like, oh, what's your style? Oh, puppy. And that could be ears and tails or like mitts and things like that. So puppy play has reached a much wider audience. It's also diversified. I see a lot more fems doing puppy play. That is newer. Puppy play has definitely been very, like, I'll say male dominated. But, like, mask dominated. And nowadays you're seeing a lot more fems, feminine-presenting people, female-identified people, doing pup play. I think that's super cool. So for folks who are looking to get into it and explore it, because there's some people who are just like, I don't know where to start. Where was kind of your start for puppy play? So I actually got my start in puppy play as a handler. This is when I was topping. I had a puppy, you know, and it was fairly brief. I think it was like three or four months. But, you know, there was lots of training. And I got really into that from the top side. And as I was exploring my switchiness, as I was exploring, like, you know, playing on both sides of the slash, I was like, oh, you know, this puppy thing, I haven't done in a while, but, like, it looked kind of cool when I was topping for it. And that kind of began the exploration into, okay, well, what does that look like for me? And I spent, like, months trying to not feel like a complete dummy crawling around on all fours and, like, begging and barking. I was like, okay. At first I was like, okay, this is weird. I'm not saying that to shame anyone else, but I feel uncomfortable right now. But I eventually got it, you know, and it was kind of a gradual process. But then it became really natural and I discovered, oh, this is really nice. It's a great stress reliever. When I'm taking 23 units in college, I can just, like, chase a ball and not worry about it for, like, two hours. Whoa, this is great. And so that's how I really got comfortable and active into puppy play. And now, again, it's just a part of my identity. It's what I do. It's how I play. So you bring up that initially it was a bit awkward. And I think that's true about a lot of different fetishes. You're like, I can't believe I'm fucking doing this. Like, and there's that part where you get out of your head in the scene and you're like, this is really weird, and then kind of getting back into that. Once you get comfortable doing something, how does it change how it feels in your body? It feels a lot more natural. It doesn't feel like I am pretending to be a puppy. It doesn't feel like I'm playing as a puppy. It feels like I'm a puppy, you know. If I play today and, you know, I put on my hood and I put on my gear, I feel like the puppy, you know. And obviously I've never actually been a dog, so I couldn't tell you if the experience is one-to-one. But it is, to me, the closest mental thing. Like, my mindset is very, like, puppy. I stop worrying about human things. You know, I'm like, oh, I've got to edit this podcast. I've got to go take out the laundry, you know. I'm like, I see a toy. Oh, my goodness, this is so exciting, you know. And then the other thing is, like, moving around becomes a lot easier. And it also allows me to show my personality. I'm very sassy. If someone tells me to do a trick, I will do it in my own way, you know. So it's really, it just feels much more natural. It just feels like you are embodying this. It's not feeling like you're playing at something. It feels like you are, you're just doing the thing. For some folks, kink really carries over into other aspects of their life. So after you've had a really good scene or you've been out playing and chasing a ball, does that carry over into how you move through the world in the next couple of days? Oh, absolutely. I, again, working in education, specifically as a music educator, I can be very energetic, especially after I've had, like, a really fun weekend. And obviously, like, the kids are going to know, oh, you know, I had a great weekend. But, like, I will be much more like, I guess the best word is playful. You know, I will be like, all right, we're going to go march. And if we get this nailed down perfectly, we can play this song that we all like. Or, you know, okay, we do have to go sit down and clean instruments, but I will play some, like, fun music for you guys. And so when I'm really feeling like I'm getting my needs met, my play needs, my relationship needs met in my personal life, it translates over and I'm so much more fulfilled professionally. Because I'm like, then I'm not stressed about anything outside of work. You know, I can really just be in the zone. Similar to hanging out with friends. I'm much more prone to, like, going out on a Tuesday night when I'm, you know, after I've had a great weekend and I'm like, oh, yeah, I've got energy. I can stay up late today. This is fine. I don't care if I have work tomorrow, you know. But it definitely translates into other aspects of my life. I want to touch a little bit on you. You are a professional educator. And in the last year or so, we've had this stupid moral panic from the right. And we've had a number of members of our community who are educators who have been outed and it's like, oh, my God, this is going to hurt the kids. Let's talk about the reality of being a kinkster and an educator. Yep. The reality is I am so professional because I am kinky. I have a vested interest in keeping my personal kink life outside of the classroom, probably more than the right does, to be honest. Because when you out someone, when you expose someone, who's seeing that? It's the kids. So by outing someone, you inadvertently brought that into their lives. For me, I treat it as if it's a when, not an if situation. I realize that by the nature of I have social media, I'm making content online. I do so openly. I show my face. It will happen. What are the consequences going to be of that? I don't know. Maybe it's a parent who's also in the community and it's not a big deal. Maybe lives of TikTok gets a hold of my content and is like, this person right here, and I could lose my job. It's a when, you know. But I just treat it like that and I have plans in place, you know. My degree was in music performance. I am also a performer. And quite frankly, those in the performance industry don't really care all that much, you know, because oftentimes you're not working with kids as much. You're playing an instrument for a living. But all that to say, I have a vested interest in education. And that's why I do what I do both inside and outside of kink. And when it comes to educating outside of kink, I often educate children. I, you know, they are my first and only priority. Getting them the musical education that they need to be successful human beings, that's what I care about. And so to that end, I'm going to remove anything that doesn't meet that goal. You know, I don't bring up that I'm non-binary as a teacher. I go by Mr. David. It's, you know, do I love it? No. But again, it's not a conversation I want to have because it distracts from the goal of teaching. You know, I don't bring up that I'm not straight. I happen to be with a BEM presenting partner, so it doesn't really come up anyway. But, you know, it's just removing those things from the classroom gets you the best result. As far as the kids are concerned, I am Mr. David, the music teacher. And heck, I probably fold myself open in the music class afterwards and I don't do anything else with my life. Like all they know is I teach music. And I think that's the way it should be. So that's how I approach it. But, again, people in a moral panic, and I like the term moral panic, panic makes you dumb. And what I think a lot of people don't realize is in your outrage of seeing people do things online or do things outside of work, you don't realize how you are the one bringing that into the classroom. You know, it's not me existing. It's you sharing my business with everybody. You know, it's not me walking into the classroom. It's you posting on Facebook for the world to see. So that's kind of where I am on that. It's so bizarre to me that the folks with the moral panic are often the ones to bring all the inappropriate stuff into school. Like every teacher I know who has slept with a student has been straight and not kinky and never a fucking drag queen. Yes. It's always the, you know, the pastors and the Catholic schools that have had the problem. Yeah. And I will say, like in public school, I at least hold myself and other people to a standard. You know, I've talked to others, like it was a substitute teacher. I was like, hey, you're younger than me. Let's talk, you know. But again, having, again, just having that professional standard in school, I think that's the way to go. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you also bring up that you have a plan because it's a when, not if. I was the same thing when I was working for the state of California because there's no way I could have gone in and done testimony on the problem of domestic violence, which is one of the areas I testified in, with pictures of me on a St. Andrew's cross smiling as I'm getting beaten, right? Yeah. It looks a little awkward when they do. And we're just not, and we've never been in this country, in a place where you could have that conversation. But it does put extra pressure on those of us who have lives outside of education. And it's hard because, like, we simultaneously want the best for the people that we teach or the people that we work with and help. But also we want to be able to have our own lives and not have our entire life dictated by our job, you know? Because I'm like, you don't care if a sanitation worker has an OnlyFans. You don't care if your garbage man does that, right? You don't care if the clerk at the grocery store has that. Your teacher, they are, again, they're a professional. They had to go to school to get licensed. We should hope that they have those professional standards as well. And that's what I try to bring to the classroom is I'm a professional, I am working here, this is my job. Well, and I think the other thing that folks outside of the kink world don't understand is kinky people are really clear about boundaries because you have to be. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I mean, some of the early conversations you have in a kink relationship are, what are your hard boundaries? What are your soft? Like, boundaries are much more present in our lives, and we're able to compartmentalize these things. Like, this is an okay thing, this is not an okay thing. And the rest of the world doesn't have those conversations on your first date. Right. Well, and that's why I call it breaking little kids' hearts because I'm like, I'm not your friend. And I don't even say this, like, when someone brings up, I say it on the first day of class, I'm not your friend. I will be friendly, I will be nice, I will listen to your problems, I will give you advice, I will help you grow as a human being. I will do all of those things in the context of being your teacher. You know, I tell kids, I hang out with my friends outside of school. You will never catch me hanging out with you outside of school. I think that's a, yeah, it's a big thing. Because, yeah, no, it's when those boundaries get blurry, and it's never kinky people who are blurring those boundaries. It drives me crazy. You also teach as a kink world. I do. So let's talk about, what type of stuff do you love to teach? This year has been diversity. I'm not going to lie. It was not something I was originally intending on, like, teaching a lot. But I have taught four classes so far this year. And I've got one coming up at DomCon. I've got two more coming up in September at a convention in Florida. This year seems to be about diversity. And I'm not complaining. Because the conversations that we have that are long overdue. And this is really where my passion starts. This is, like, everything I love to talk about. My final project in school was writing about Black women in music. And, you know, that really ignited me to study people of color and, like, racial marginalization in other areas of my life. And, well, I'm kinky. So we got there real quick. But, like, when it comes to my education, at least nowadays, I'm really focused on finding and presenting actionable steps that we as a community can take to bring more people in. I was just having this conversation. A lot of Black people think kink is weird. I'm talking about the Black community specifically. Outside of kink, a lot of Black people are like, you, like, wear a collar and say you're owned by somebody? Okay. 1700s is calling. They want you back. My partner is Black and refers to it as this is some white nonsense. Right. Exactly. You know, this is some white people shit. Like, a very common saying. This is some white people shit. And so I want to, because I, going to the whiter Black community and talking about it isn't necessarily the most productive thing. I want to take it to within, talking within the kink community. Because we have some things we can do to make it feel less like white people shit. You know, fetishization is a huge issue. And a lot of people treat fetishization as almost like a positive thing. It's like, oh, no, we like you. We want you. It's like, no, no. You want your fantasies fulfilled. And I tick a few boxes. We also have how do we deal with incidents when they happen? I've heard so many stories of people of color going to report an incident to a venue owner or an event host that is white. And the event host is like, oh, well, I mean, maybe that person just had a different context. You know, maybe they were just like saying, you know, maybe they didn't mean it like that. And it's like, okay, I can respect that potentially this person didn't mean to cause harm. But the fact is that harm was caused. And so when we have venue owners or event hosts, in people's perception, dismissing issues, you know, dismissing people's hurt and people's harm, that does nothing. You know, and I always say, if I were new to the community and someone said something to me and I reported it and they were like, oh, but they didn't mean it like that. It's okay. I'm leaving. You know, I'd be like, okay, well, obviously there's not a space where I'm going to be okay in. And so I really want us as a community to take actionable steps to figure out, like, hey, let's look at restorative justice. Hey, let's look at how we do diversity. You know, let's look at tokenization, fetishization, how we treat people of color and other marginalized groups within this community. Are the right people hearing that or are you just preaching to the choir at this point? Well, you know, it depends. It really does. And a really good test for this is actually going to be DomCon, which is coming up. The class that I'm presenting is building better communities together, tactics for creating racially inclusive and diverse communities. And it's really for the community leaders. So if I get to class and I see like 20 or 30 different community leaders around, I'm going to say mission accomplished. The right people are hearing it. And, you know, a lot of it, I don't know if it's necessarily preaching to the choir because I think there's always more work to be done. You know, I've talked with people who are doing a lot for inclusivity and we've had conversations. They've been like, oh, you know, I've never thought about this area before. That could be something we could look at. And, you know, are they doing the work? Absolutely. But we can always take it in different or new directions. For the community at large, for folks who have spaces, who run conferences, who show up and teach, for you, what are the like top three things you would really like to see more people doing? The first and foremost thing is getting your staff education. I find that you can have a motivated venue host or a motivated president of a club who like does a lot of work on themselves. And I'm saying that is important. I'm not saying that's not important. But change in an organization or diversity in an organization has to be the whole organization. You know, if the founder does it, but everyone who's working the door doesn't, it doesn't help anything, you know. And so I think that's the number one thing. Regularly hosting talks, classes. You don't even have to bring someone in, just have a discussion group. Like, hey, we want to be a diverse organization. Let's go around the room and say, what does that mean for us? And just kind of like talk through that. Secondly, having a DEI team, you know, that can handle those kinds of things. Like when incidents specifically relating to diversity come up, having a team that handles that, that is not a part of leadership. Because I can't tell you how often it's someone in leadership that's just pulling some dumb thing. And we expect leadership to handle it internally. I don't know if you've seen IA for the police, but it's kind of like we investigated ourselves. We found no wrongdoing, you know. So creating a team that has the power to handle those situations without being connected to the leadership of the organization so that they're not like worried about retaliation, you know, because it can be an awkward situation when the founder of your organization is doing something bad and you have to be like, okay, you aren't welcome here anymore. Like it can create some massive waves, but I think having a separate group of people who have the power to effectively get things done and moderate a diverse space without the fear of retaliation from those who might be running the space or might have power in that space, that's important. And then third, I think it becomes going from education to staff to community outreach. And I mean, this could be like conventions having classes about diversity, conventions that are focused on diversity. I would love to see a convention that is just like all diversity related classes. And honestly, I might just start one because, you know, I'm very much of the mindset of if you build it, they might come. So we'll see. But like having spaces where it's not just those who are working for organizations, but those who attend events, you know, I think one of the last major issues I had with someone being dumb was an event attendee, not staff, an event attendee. And so just getting general community education is, I think, super important. And having spaces and venues to facilitate that are extremely helpful. They are. They are. And I've seen a growing discussion about it, but we're still not where we need to be as a community. What are you currently grateful for? Community-wise or just like in general? In life. Well, in life, I'm grateful for the opportunities I've had. I have fallen job-wise, education-wise into some great opportunities, things that have allowed me to express myself and like put my creative mind to work to create programs and like material that I want. You know, I'm not necessarily following admin's lead. I'm not like stuck in this thing. You know, I've landed in positions where it's like, we need you to build this, do what you want. And I'm like, yes, I will do that. I will build this thing. And then within the community, I am just thankful for friends and socializing. You know, we're four days away from DomCon, and I am just gearing up for, I think, the most socially fun-filled play, fun-filled weekend I've had in a long time. I think I have six or seven people I'm singing with. I get to spend a ton of time with my partner. I get to like do photo shoots and other such fun things. It's just going to be a blast. I will be there, too. I'm really looking forward to it. The other thing I found, there is a churro cafe less than 10 minutes away from the venue, and I'm actually meeting somebody there for like the churro sampler platter and coffee mid-afternoon. And my fat ass is so excited about this. I might need that address. I might. I'm going to need that address because, yeah. So my partner and I, we're going down a day early, so we're going to get there Wednesday afternoon. So we have just like we have time to ourselves. We are long distance. So in addition to the convention weekend, we wanted a day out of the house but to ourselves. And so I think we're going to have to go get churros because we both. I'm going to have to send you that address. Oh, for sure. You know, it was so sweet because somebody wanted to meet up with me down there and they had suggested that as the place to meet up. I'm like, yes. Now that is now my top priority at Tom Con is going to get churros and coffee mid-afternoon. Right. Like forget the fact that I'm teaching there. Forget the fact that I'm attending this wonderful event. Churros. This is what I need. Yeah. The menu is incredible. I'm sure there will be more pictures of that than Dom Con. Oh, I bet. Sounds like it for me too. If people want to find you, take a class, follow you, plug all your sites and socials. Yes, absolutely. So you can find all of my socials at linktree.com slash pup underscore Locrian. That's where you can find like that's the easy way to find my Twitter, Instagram, all that. If you want an easy way to find my link tree, you can go to Tik Tok. I am pup underscore Locrian there. And if you want to see the naughty stuff or the semi-naughty stuff, you can go to my fat life, which is also pup underscore Locrian. I also have my own podcast. It's called Pup's Podcast where I host it with my best non-binary best, best non-binary bestie. And we post episodes every Wednesday. I think this next one that's going to be coming out this Wednesday is all about hanky code. And then we also have one coming out that's going to be about prepping for cons because, well, we're prepping for cons right now. Excellent. And listeners, we'll have all of those links and more in the show notes. As always, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you for chatting with me. And I'm looking forward to seeing you this weekend. Yes, I'm looking forward to it too. I saw you were on the schedule and I'm like, oh my gosh, I just get to see so much of you. This is great. We'll talk soon. All righty.