1996-07_03 Vipassana Retreat, Part 3 of 8 - Q&A 7

Talk: 19960703-Larry_Rosenberg-UNK-vipassana_retreat_part_3_of_8-43307 Start_time: 01:16:23 Display_question: How do I handle thoughts that I'm torturing myself while meditating? Keyword_search: thought, observe, breath, distracted, torture, meditation, thought, thoughts, subtle, mindful, energy, emotions, spell, believe, victim, intense, aggravated, delusion, identify, nature, body, anger, contraction, interrelated, mind, calm Question_content: Questioner: What do you do with a thought that I observe that I kept feeling? Larry: But you know, right now we're on the breath, aren't we? Questioner: But I’m distracted from the breath. Larry: Oh, okay. Very good move. All right. Brilliant. So it's one of those times. Okay, go ahead. Yes. Questioner: I think I'm observing it. And then there's a point at which the following question comes to my mind: “Why are you torturing yourself?” And then I don’t know what to do with that. Larry: That's a thought, too. Can you give me the sense of what you mean by “Why am I torturing myself?” What do you mean? I'm just trying to understand what you're saying. Questioner: I go through periods of time in which I get what the breath does. And I go to the thought and then I go back to the breath. Larry: That's right. Questioner: Then I go back. It seems to come to a crescendo. It gets more and more intense, where the thought is more and more aggravated. And then there are more of them, and then they become like this whole thing. Larry: I understand. Questioner: Right <inaudible>… and then I feel like I’m torturing myself. Larry: Yes. Okay. I think I have a better… Questioner: And I’m saying, “Why?” Larry: Yeah, okay. I can't answer that. But I can suggest how we would work with it using this practice. You're with the breathing, and then you lose touch of the breathing little by little. And then thoughts proliferate and they become more of them and strong ones. So it's not only thought, but probably emotions with the thought and so forth. At an early stage in practice, it's very difficult to be mindful of thoughts because thoughts are very subtle objects. They're called subtle objects. They're very refined little packages of energy. Moreover, they cast a spell on us. It's very easy. We get sucked into them and believe them. After all, a thought is just a thought. Did you know that? It's all it is. A thought is just a thought. Now, that's a big one to really understand that one. Because then when thoughts come up, it's not that they're useless, but we know what they are. They're thoughts. Thoughts are “bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah.” That's what that is. Break_line: Now, if you don't know that and then you identify with it, then a whole world is created out of that thought, which you believe in. And then you're subject to be victimized by the world that you helped create because you didn't understand the nature of thought. We call that delusion from a spiritual point of view. But now, practically speaking, it sounds like it's really thick and you're overwhelmed by it, in your own words, sort of. What you can do is come back to the breath, of course, during this exercise. Break_line: But if that's happening a lot and you're having a difficult time, whatever was happening to you, whatever those thoughts are about. They also express themselves in the body. And the body is much easier, it's more accessible than the realm of thought. Thought is a very subtle object, but the thought always leaves a trace in the body. Check it, see if it's true. If you're having an angry thought, then someplace in the body will change. There'll be contraction somewhere. If you're having a loving thought, it's one they're distinguishable, but they're interrelated, mind and the body. Do you see what I'm getting at? Break_line: So you would observe that which is much more observable, which is the bodily expression of what you're talking about. And then that could help calm you down, as you breathe in and as you breathe out. I can't see your face so I don't know if you're understanding that. Okay, okay. Please. End_time: 01:20:26