WW EP08 - Deepak x Sawan

If you are quitting because you are running away from the situation, then you have not learned what the situation is trying to teach you. A toxic work environment can be defined as poisonous or harmful. Signs of a toxic work culture include lack of boundaries, lack of trust, punishment for mistakes, win-lose dynamics, lack of support for growth, workplace politics, disengaged employees, lack of clarity, and high turnover. To avoid entering a toxic environment, one can run a soft data research campaign to understand the company's culture before joining. This includes looking at how well teams work together, goal clarity, strategy and budget allocation, executional discipline, and leadership. Different working styles may require different environments, and self-awareness is important in choosing the right fit. Many employees suffer in silence due to social conditioning or fear of repercussions. There are two options in dealing with a toxic work environment: fight it out or leave. Each si If you are quitting because you are running away from the situation, then you have not learned what the situation is trying to teach you, and the lesson in life is not going to leave you till it has taught you what you need to learn from it. If you look at the career coin, you know, there are three sides, heads represents the financial reward, tails represents the professional satisfaction, and the third side, which is the edge of the coin is your work-life balance. Companies where the leadership is good, there the bad employees will leave because they can't hide in the system, whereas companies where the leadership is inadequate, there the good employees will leave because they are not getting the support to be able to do their best work. The term toxic can be defined as poisonous or harmful. There are various factors that contribute to turning a workplace into an unpleasant, unhealthy environment. It can range from a lack of vision, to unfriendly competition, never-ending gossip, to unfair policies, and also office politics. So what are the telltale signs of a workplace culture that lacks core values? In this episode, we dive into the multiple layers of a toxic work environment and how deeply it can impact the performance and productivity of the employees, and ultimately, the whole business. But the larger issue is what to do when after multiple rounds of interviews, assignments, and tricky salary negotiations, you end up in a toxic work environment. What to do next, fight or flight? From transitioning dilemmas like quitting or switching your job to the dreaded career breaks, from make or break situations like negotiating CTCs or handling feedback between In today's episode, we have a very special guest joining us. Let's welcome Mr. Sawant Kapoor, India's leading career coach. Starting his career in 2001, he took eight short years to reach the role of CEO of America's largest privately held wine and spirits business. On returning home in 2013, Sawant joined his family business. Today, he also runs True North Solutions, a job search, job application, and career management firm. Welcome to the show, sir. How are you doing? I'm doing very well. How are you? I'm sure the working population will agree to the fact that work culture defines the productivity, performance, and personal growth of an individual, no matter what your job is or how much money you make. My first question to you, sir, would be, what are the signs to look for if you want to establish that your workplace is toxic? I think there's a number of symptoms that one will begin to see. One very common thing is that there are no boundaries around work. That includes the way one is expected to devote time or the manner in which relationships shape up in a toxic culture. Another would be that people fundamentally don't trust each other. They're coming from a space where they give an impression that they have a hidden agenda or their motives are unclear, or a culture where making mistakes is punished or reprimanded. Another sign would be that the outlook one has towards one's co-workers or colleagues, it is one with contempt. So the basic dynamic of how people are relating with one another is a win-lose dynamic instead of a win-win dynamic. Another sign would be the lack of support for employee development and growth. Another thing that comes to mind is that, you know, a lot of psychological games are being played. You know, workplace politics is high and, you know, behaviors such as the straw man or gas lighting, all of this is well-entrenched in the culture. And in general, you know, people, employees, that is, are disengaged. There's not a lot of clarity around projects and timelines and the turnover or attrition could also be quite high. That brings us to how can we shield ourselves from this? You know, one way is to make sure that we avoid entering a toxic environment altogether rather than having to tackle the situation after finding ourselves in one. Is there a way to find out from before that the work environment we're about to enter is toxic? Yes, there is. Now, this is the very heart of my system. This is a very common problem that is faced by working professionals. Once you accept the offer and then consequently come to realize that the culture of the company is not right for you, you know, you can feel really trapped. So, understanding the true ground reality of a company's culture requires one to run what I call is a soft data research campaign. This soft data campaign allows an individual to deeply understand the culture of a company prior to making that decision to join them or not. So, it puts one in a position of knowledge with regard to the culture and the context with which you interact with the company is very important here to uncover this true culture. So, if you present yourself as a job seeker, then by default, you will also put your best foot forward because, you know, you want to secure that job. Similarly, even the company will put its best foot forward because the company also wants to attract the best talent in the marketplace. Therefore, the context with which a company gets to know you has to be one that is free of this conflict. It requires that deep interaction with its employees and its decision makers and that has to happen on a basis that is free of this conflict of interest. You spoke about your soft data research campaign. If you can explain in simple terms as to what they should look for to gauge the culture of the company before they join? So, you know, the elements that you are looking for are things like how well do their teams work together? How aligned are people with one another? So, you know, our KPI is defined for everyone, every department and every role. Is there clarity around the goal? Is a realistic strategy being put into place to achieve those goals? And has the right budget been allocated? And then finally, it comes to their executional discipline. So, you know, understanding factors like this, their work style, you know, the leadership of the organization, because the leaders will really set the tone for the company. Companies where the leadership is good, there the bad employees will leave because, you know, they can't hide in the system. Whereas companies where the leadership is inadequate, there the good employees will leave because they are not getting the support, you know, to be able to do their best work. So, it's all inside information that you're looking for. And that's what, you know, it requires that conflict-free context to be created in how you interact with the company to uncover this inside information. Once you actually set the context right with the company, I think that's where you understand that this is how the culture is of the company and this is what I'm getting into and this is what I'm standing up for. You know, we talk about toxic work cultures, sometimes fast-paced, aggressive and go-getter organizations may not be ideal for everyone. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's toxic or do they? Everybody has a different style of working. How can an employee tackle that? Had they run a soft data research campaign, they would know and they would take a better decision. But it comes from your awareness of yourself. A lot of people do well in a crazy or chaotic culture, you know, where there's a lot of deadlines and lots of things are going on simultaneously. Whereas, you know, some people, they require that calm, that composed environment to be able to do their best work. Introspection, get to know yourself and, you know, try as far as you can in terms of your working style. You know, since childhood, we are told to toughen up, be strong in the face of adversities, you know, losers, run away from problems. Is this social conditioning a reason why many jobbers suffer in silence since they've accepted toxic work culture as part and parcel of work life? Well, the way, you know, the culture molds us definitely has some play here. But a lot of people may be afraid of, you know, the repercussions. So if you don't have an alternative in hand and, you know, you're in a position where, you know, you're the breadwinner and that job is important, but you're not satisfied with the quality of the environment or it's not suitable to you, then yes, I suppose you're putting up with that environment because of a greater good, which is that, you know, it runs the economic engine of your life. There are two options that we have as employees in this case. Number one is fight it out. Number two is flight. Now let's talk about the former first. What are those conditions where there's still a chance that an employee should stay and fight it out? First, it is important to understand that each situation is a multidimensional situation. There are many variables at play. So, you know, this cannot be made into like a template or a flowchart where if this is happening, do this. These individual factors need to be understood so that an appropriate go-forward plan can be built. A one-size-fits-all approach is not something that will work here. But fundamentally, you know, the question that one needs to ask oneself is, what is the situation trying to teach me? Difficulty comes into your path to help you evolve. You know, dealing with ever-increasing complexity is how we reinvent ourselves for the next level of performance or next level of responsibility or scope or roles in our career. So the fight or flight response comes from a part of the brain which is known as the amygdala. And this controls emotional response, such as, you know, fear or anxiety or aggression. So in such situations, you need to have a sufficient amount of personal awareness to not let your amygdala take over. See, if you let your amygdala take over, then the ego gets involved and then situations will typically only worsen. And the one who has the most authority in such a situation is the one who will most likely prevail, even if it is unfair. So what needs to happen is that your reason and your fairness, your calmness, is what should direct you in such situations. This is your prefrontal cortex. And it's also known as the executive center of your brain. This is the vision and strategy and reason beside in the brain. So this is what should be deployed in such situations and not your emotional response. I remember where, you know, I landed up taking a lead on an urgent matter under the best interest of the company. And I took it up because of how urgent this issue was becoming. You know, there was going to be a very significant downside that the company would experience if this was not handled. That said, the issue should have been tackled by the finance department. But because it was not being attended to, you know, I took it up and I brought attention to it and, you know, wanted to resolve it because it was going to impact my area as well. My area was strategic planning. So, you know, this created a little bit of a problem where, you know, finance felt that I was stepping on their toes and, you know, their personal interests overtook the best interests of the company because it landed up becoming a little bit of an ego tussle. But fortunately, I had developed sufficiently by then in my career where I did not react. It was two very difficult months for me because, you know, I had to face a fair bit of personal attacks. But, you know, I had developed the wherewithal by then to know that, you know, it is that insecurity that is driving their behavior and ultimately even expressing dissatisfaction or anger in that manner was just a cry for help. So, a boss must come at such situations from a place of fairness and not from a place of ego. And as a boss, one needs a very developed level of mindfulness, of empathy and, you know, the ability to take that U-turn if one has been unfair in dealing with such a matter where an employee is putting up a fight because of being compromised or treated in an unfair manner. You must feel very secure as a person, as a professional to act in this manner. Now that we know when is it wise to stay and fight for the job, you see potential in one of the other ways, if any, according to you, to actually put up a fight. One can approach the HR department, but going against the grain of the company can very well mean that the inconvenience and the unfairness that you are being subjected to because of that toxic work culture, that will only escalate. So, yes, one can involve the HR department or one's hiring manager. But again, fundamentally, the person coming at the situation from a place of unfairness and ego is the one who will have to eventually submit, okay? So, be sure where one is coming from. Also, please understand the world is not a fair place. So, don't fall for the fallacy that you will be treated fairly. If the person you have a problem with is more important to the organization or they are harder to replace, then, you know, you are at a distinct disadvantage. See, we all come with arc works. No one is perfect. We have our peculiarities, our idiosyncrasies, our pet peeves. For strong performers, all of that becomes easier to overlook. So, your work must fundamentally speak for itself. A lot of people have tried to address this through, you know, another colleague or somebody more senior in their organization. So, you have to fundamentally recognize that asking someone else in the same company to play a role of broker, now, that isn't fair because, you know, it puts them in a compromised position. So, it may well impact their growth or their career or, you know, their career's progression. So, having a developed inner circle of mentors who are not in the same company, that can be very helpful. And that could be a good alternative way to tackle such a situation. But this is one of those areas where I think a career coach can be an ideal solution. Because in examining the situation, a career coach will look at it from different sides. Coach will be able to ask the right questions to help you determine, is that a situation that is not unfair and truly trying to teach you something? Is it asking you to stretch in which you will grow your capacity to tackle such situations? Or is it truly an unfair situation where you should not be treated in that manner? And you would be correct to think about moving on. So, they'll be able to really diagnose the situation properly. Even though a lot of companies promise mental health support, there is still that missing piece. Now, is mental health support actually available in most corporates? You know, the situation is definitely becoming better. Companies are attending to this because they are realizing that mental health is going to be one of the key metrics going forward for how prospective employees look at a workplace. But this is a big challenge. You know, and organizations and HR departments recognize this challenge that, you know, this is what they need to tackle. Some are even tying up with licensed professionals, such as licensed counselors to provide that kind of support to their workforce. But at the moment, a lot of this is still being figured out. So, if you look at smaller to midsize companies, it's not nearly as prevalent. Only some of the larger corporates are taking this up because it's in its infancy of adoption. As you mentioned, in its infancy of adoption. And I'm sure a lot of smaller companies still do not have that support available. And if you see the dynamics of our country, majority of the people who are working in smaller companies still go through this, even though they put up a fight. In some cases, that's not enough. That brings us to flight. Some situations are worth fighting, while the others can simply be let go by finding a new job or a team. So, when we speak of the fight, what are some of the things that need to be kept in mind before taking this decision? Can the situation be made favorable or repelled? Now, there are more employees than there are businesses or companies. So, a lot of professionals feel that, you know, their stake is lower and they quit. But if you are quitting because you are running away from the situation, then you have not learned what the situation is trying to teach you. And the lesson in life is not going to leave you till it has taught you what you need to learn from it. So, you know, if you are an employee that is being treated unfairly and the problem stems from an issue of leadership or culture or, you know, both, then moving on may be the best option. People who are directly responsible for shaping the culture of a company, even they can often struggle with giving shape to that culture or making the needed changes. So, my advice here would be that one must play the game smartly and stay in the situation till one creates the right alternatives. Now, unless it is a situation where, you know, somebody is going through or having to face something like sexual harassment and there is no other choice, then yes, one must immediately quit. But most of the situations that they are creating mental stress, they are also trying to teach you something. They are going to grow your capacity in how you can handle difficulty or challenge or obstacles. So, playing the game smartly will be the right way to go about things. That is, create an alternative for yourself before you hand in the papers. Is the toxic work culture prevalent across departments or is it specific to one department? Now, I ask this because one of the solutions could be to shift departments based on skill sets and not quit the company entirely. So, is this possible? What is your take on this? I think changing departments is a limited solution. See, if you are senior enough and you have experience of multiple functions, then it may be possible. But in general, shifting your function or your department requires a proper plan. See, the knowledge that you need to operate in a function like IT is very different from the knowledge that you require to operate in a function like finance or HR or marketing and so on. So, shifting functions may not always work. You know, even shifting industries or functions, it generally requires a very well thought out plan because, you know, there are different degrees of switching difficulty. So, if you look at switching industries, that is relatively speaking easier to do because, you know, most functions will go across multiple industries. So, sales is a part of most industries, you know, marketing, accounts, finance, HR, supply chain, customer service, product development. These are functions that exist across multiple industries. But switching functions is harder because of what I just said that, you know, the knowledge that you require as a software engineer is very different versus the knowledge that you require as a supply chain professional. And if you are trying to switch both, then that is the hardest. You know, sometimes the employees make up their mind that they are going to leave a particular organization. It is done. They take everything is sorted. Now, they have made their mind that they are going to shift organizations. When is it or at which point in time they should start looking for a new job? You have to be a little street smart about this. If you are difficult to replace, then finding that support may be harder because, you know, nobody wants to go through that kind of inconvenience. And that is why a lot of companies ask for these 90-day notice periods. You know, they are becoming more normal because no one wants to suffer through having to look for another person. You know, it is a huge cost to a business or a company. But the right time would be from an employee perspective would be immediate because you do not want to stay in that toxic environment any longer, right? The sooner you start creating options for yourself, the sooner you can move on. What really matters here is to actually work in an environment where employees are respected, there is no bias, there is appreciation for work, and people are open to feedback. Well, I hope this is not a utopian scenario that I am talking about. I am sure such companies also exist out there that are taking care of their employees brilliantly and have a solid work culture. Why are most of the employees unable to find such companies? The definition of a dream job is where your skills, your talents, your education, your experiences, your knowledge, your personal qualities, all of this is in alignment with the most important challenges and opportunities that an organization is facing. And the organization provides you a work culture suited to your personality, right? If you look at the career coin, you know, there are three sides to the career coin. Hedge represents the remuneration or the financial reward that you would have. Tails represents the professional satisfaction that you would achieve. And the third side, which is the edge of the coin, that edge is your work-life balance. The true relationship is that the greater your professional satisfaction, the better the job you are typically doing, and the greater your financial reward. And the greater your financial reward, the more you will be able to achieve or build the right work-life balance. The problem is not you. The problem is that the formal system of education needs to be redesigned from this perspective. A job for most people, you know, as I was stating earlier, drives the economic engine of their life. So, learning how to get the right opportunities is not really an optional skill anymore. You know, it's a necessary skill. Because the average person over their 30 to 40-year career will be associated with, you know, about 17 distinct opportunities. You know, and knowledge today is available in understanding how to build a career with strategic intent. Till now, I only knew there are two sides to a coin. Thank you for putting that fresh perspective. Now, when you've spoken about toxic work culture, we've spoken about fight and flight. Let me address the second side of the coin, which is what are some of the signs of a good work culture in a company? A good work culture is one where you are mentored. Failure is fundamentally allowed. Failure becomes a learning opportunity. You are challenged. At the same time, if you've ever been to a gym, you know, you would see that we drive our muscles to that point of failure where the muscle cannot lift the weight anymore. That is where it comes back stronger. If you're challenged and you're being pushed outside your comfort zone, then that's a work culture that is helping you grow. Also, a good work culture would be one where you're given opportunities for promotion, where you can grow your career. You know, you have a career roadmap and it's not just a static position. It would be one where you are involved. You know, your opinion matters. Your input matters. You're made to feel included, right? And of course, you're appreciated. I think fundamentally all human beings have appreciation as a birthright. It should be. Because when we are appreciated, we give our best. You know, a good work culture is that empowers you with that sense of mission. You know, so you're working on something that is bigger than yourself. And of course, trust, I feel, is an essential element in the foundation of a work culture. So this would be the ethos, if you will, of a good work culture. With this, we come to the end of this episode. I'm sure the listeners would have gained a lot of insights and perspectives. Thank you so much for joining in. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast of Workwise with Naukri. I hope you enjoyed listening to this episode. If you did, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening to this. Also, do share this with your friends who would benefit from this episode. One of the questions that stands out is fight or flight or work-life balance. Is there anything that we all can learn from? You can share your perspective on Twitter and LinkedIn and use the hashtag Workwise with Naukri. Three of the best perspectives will get a special surprise from us. So go ahead and share your perspective on your social media. Thanks again for listening to this episode. I'm your host, Deepak Palik, and you are listening to Workwise with Naukri, a career podcast from Naukri.com produced by Vine Studio.