WW EP04 - Deepak x Lloyd

The transcription discusses the importance of effectively managing relationships with managers in the workplace. It emphasizes the need to recognize the signs of a difficult boss and understand their motivations. The transcript also explores the concept of toxic work culture and offers tips for handling it, such as proactive communication and expressing interest in new opportunities. It highlights the significance of setting clear expectations and fostering a win-win environment. The transcript concludes by discussing the boundaries between professionalism and friendship with managers and the importance of transparent communication for a positive work environment. A lot more people think they have a tough loss than they actually do. We tend to sometimes over-read the signal and it's important to be a little bit more or cut them some slack a little. Initially I think I also got a little carried away that I need to push the other person but then I realized the difference between me, myself and my ego is two different things right. So I just have to let go and letting go is very tough. One of the biggest wins of successful man is the fact that they get to know their employee both as individuals and as individuals. You know relationships are an integral part of life. Now whether you talk about college love or talk about your life partners or one of the most important relationships being the one at work and that too a professional one with your managers. Not knowing how to manage our managers can cost us our mental peace. But hey what if you land in a similar situation all over again? It's just an endless loop that we fall in. In this episode we'll try and explore how we can effectively manage and thrive with our managers. From transitioning dilemmas like quitting or switching your job to the dreaded career breaks. From make or break situations like negotiating CTCs or handling feedback between peers. To people related complexities like having a difficult manager or a toxic work environment. Workwise we cover it all. Hi, welcome to Workwise with Naukri, a show to help you work better and accelerate your career. I'm Devath Gupta. I'm Neha Sindhu Batra. I'm Deepak Pari. We'll be your podcast host helping you better tackle those work woes. To help us understand this better we've invited Lloyd Mathias. Lloyd has experience of working with several managers. He's also led large teams in his long career in different organizations like HP, Tata, Motorola and PepsiCo. Lloyd, welcome to the show. And I really wanted to sort of understand from you, is there a way for the employees to identify that we're dealing with a difficult boss? I would say some part is really recognizing the telltale signs of difficult managers. The second is coming to terms with it to some extent, but most importantly I think is to recognize what's driving those slightly difficult managers. Is it interpersonal issues? Is it something specific to their personal life? Or is it just that they have some degree of discomfort with you specifically? I think that we're recognizing that you really have a bad boss is a challenge. My surmise is that a lot more people think they have a tough boss than they actually do. We tend to sometimes overread the signals. Interesting point there about overreading the signs, but sometimes it's a reality rather than our perception of that situation. And to get insights on that, I also had a chat with Sandeep Kochar, who you might have heard in our previous episode. And this is what he had to say about how at one point he too exhibited toxic behavior as a boss and what he did next once he realized it. Initially I think I also got a little carried away that I need to push the other person, but then I realized that it's a very silly thing. I also realized that if you give freedom and independence to people, people do act responsibly because they feel that they have been given this for some reason or purpose and hence they feel obliged. If you treat people well with respect, then I think people do feel that they need to give back. And then I realized the difference between me, myself and my ego is two different things. So I just have to let go. And letting go is very tough. I mean, how do you think that can be done? How can we read what's going on with the manager? First is important very early on in the relationship as soon as you're hired is to take the first week or so to really get to know your boss. I think the best way to do it, my belief is that when you first start working with your boss, you should sit down and have a conversation about how he likes things done. I think we all have to recognize the absolute criticality that if our boss succeeds, then we have a good chance to succeed. So one is leveling the ground. And I think very often a lot of employees don't take that first week in part time to try and understand the expectations of the boss. One doesn't have to compromise oneself completely, but I think a lot of issues one needs to work. For example, in my career, I have had different bosses, some difficult, some not so difficult. And I think a little bit of a change in approach normally helps. My question stems from the point of insecurity. Has it ever happened that the manager gets insecure with the employee's success? I'd love to hear from you because you've been in a position where you've been led by managers and now as a manager, you've led people. The truth is it has. I think to recognize that people at various levels across organizations have a bit of insecurity. So it is not uncommon. A good employee, I think, has to adopt a good team player approach. And the key to being a good team player is really recognizing that it's teamwork and to bring the V before the I. I think then the moment there's a shared vision and a shared victory, then I think the insecurity is reduced. Obviously, it protects that you get your share of the visibility from your boss and generally from the world at large. But understand that in terms of your appraisal, the biggest weightage is going to be your boss. Like I always said, your boss's success is a big factor in your success because at the end of the day, he's going to secure your appraisal. So I think making your supervisor, your boss look good is not just a nice to do. I think it's a must. Now we spoke about having a difficult manager and the interesting part there is we've spoken about even when you have a difficult manager and you try to get feedback from the manager and the employee is doing as much as he can to get that work done, get that performance appraisal, get that five star rating, the employee is not getting that appraisal. He believes that he's a part of a toxic work culture. And the only thought that goes on in his or her head is, when can I get out of this? The one thing that reduces toxicity is good, transparent communication. You know, so I think the more you proactively try to reach out to your supervisor, to your boss to understand what's happening, I think the less is the likelihood of toxicity building up. The second kind of tip I may offer is that I think now and then it's good to have a conversation or open a conversation with your boss and supervisor saying, Hey, can I do something? The moment a manager senses that an employee is hungry, wants to do something new, something interesting, then he recognizes that this is not purely a mechanical guy who comes in and does his own tasks and says, I want to get this out of here. So you've got to seem like, Hey, you want the organization to succeed, you want the manager to succeed, you want to succeed. And now and then you're willing to show an interest in an activity that is not strictly within that role. Initially it might sound like, why do I want to put myself in bigger trouble? But very often that's when people start recognizing that, Hey, you're the guy who's got more than just what his work demands. And that tends to overall reduce toxicity. Assuming that the boss is not difficult, assuming that you have a very cordial relationship with your boss, the employee has a very cordial relationship with his or her manager. What can we as employees do to maintain a strong professional bond with our managers? I think one, staying upfront or rather being focused on the larger goals of the organization helps. Two is, like I said, understanding what makes your manager tick, what does he care about, what keeps him up at night? What would he love you to do more of what you're doing or what you're doing less of? What frightens him? How much importance does he place on impressing others? How does he measure success? And what does he think about failure? I think once, like I said, you understand his drivers, his motivation, I think that makes for a great team cohort. The other point I would say is as a team player, how do you work with other colleagues, ensuring a better workplace? I think the owners very often and employees, how they get together and say, this is the area that you tackle. A watch out is don't badmouth your manager, either with your peers or with others. I think that's, to my mind, a CLM, a real limiting move. But getting the team together, thinking how do we get this thing changed is always positive. You mentioned earlier about and we spoke about setting that environment right where both the employee and the manager can thrive and grow together. And two things, in my opinion, is necessary to do that. One we already spoke about is great communication. Second I'd say would be expectations management. Now as an employee, and this works both ways, right? As an employee, I might have certain expectations from my manager. So to create an environment where both of us can thrive, how can expectation management be set right from the word go? I would say, you know, expectation management is all about recording clear objectives, right? And therefore, organizations that spend a lot of time concentrating the larger organizational purpose and objectives, now into department level, management level, individual employee level, I think eliminate a lot of that issues. Within that structure, I think it's very important to have deep boss subordinate conversations where clearly expectations are set, right? And therefore, I would say the onus very often is on the employee to understand clearly from the boss what is the expectation when you hand over a project to me. Are you going to tell me the clear guidelines? Are you going to tell me clear timelines? How often do you want me to keep you updated, right? If I need help, do I need to come back to you or do I have to find that help in the resource market? So I think expectation setting is absolutely critical. So each one knows what they are up against. And expectation setting should not just limit to work related things, but also in terms of bonuses, in terms of learning budgets, in terms of traveling budgets. The other point, like I said, that expectation setting and good organizational culture should foster is a win-win situation, right? The moment employees know that when they're giving it their best shot and the company succeeds, they're going to win, right? They win every which way in terms of better work culture, better rewards, better key socks, whatever it takes. Can the manager and the employee be friends outside of work? How do we set that boundary and how do we maintain that relationship between professionalism and friendship? Absolutely. So my first point is that managers and employees not just can be friends, I think they must be friends. Two, I think that it's perfectly okay to go out for lunches, to go out with your boss, to visit him at home. I think we live in a completely egalitarian, equal world and I think that's perfectly fine. I think it's just important for employees to be a little mindful that the person that they are socializing with, who's their best buddy or whatever else, is also their boss. At some level, he's going to sit through an appraisal. So I think it's more an employee that may be a little watchful that I'm still friends, but I won't take liberties beyond a point. So I won't do things specifically in the organization that seems to show over familiarity with the manager. But as far as being friends, I think it's not just can, I think it's a must thing. I think great managers also become soulmates and confidants of their employees. And I think that's a very constant sign. Thank you for that wonderful insight. This is a very sensitive topic and I'm sure the listeners must have gained immense value out of it. Next, Sandeep shared some light on how one can establish the boundaries, knowing the culture of our country. Yeah, so I think one of the bits is that you let the other person know in some ways or the other, maybe not directly, but indirectly. You know, for example, if your boss is calling you, you may just drop a message and say, could I just, I'm driving, could I call you back in a minute? Now that is a very simple thing rather than you picking up the phone, putting it on speaker and then trying to struggle with the answer. You can just drop that message and then you, after, you know, after 5-10 minutes, you can then call the person back. I think if you do it a few times, then the boss will also realize what's happening here. Yes, there'll be sometimes some bosses are very strange that they will want you to immediately do something and a lot of bosses will come to you and say, hey, this has to be done now. I think our culture is such that hierarchy is like ingrained in our culture. And so also is politics. If you look at it, those are the two very big things that you see in Indian corporate jobs. And one part of that hierarchy is really about, you know, person's elder to you or the person's got a bigger designation than you. These are things, if you go to the US, you won't find this happening with a boss. I mean, I remember once I, this boss of mine, he used to not approve things very fast. And at the end, when the appraisal came, he would say, you didn't do the work. So I got very pissed off by this. And I just picked up the phone and called his boss who was in the US. And I told him, look, there's a gentleman sitting next to me who's not approving things. And our work is getting stuck. And you know, and later on, if you tell me that things are not happening, so it's not my fault. Now obviously, that's a very, I mean, it's not a great thing to do, by the way. So I took that big risk. And I did that. And next day, when I came into office, I saw a man with red cheeks, completely angry, as if he's dying for my blood. And the moment he saw me, he started to yell on the top of his voice. I thought that maybe he'll just fire me. But guess what he didn't, he actually promoted me. But essentially, you just keep pushing the boundary and say, okay, what will happen if I do this? So you keep trying and coming to a model which works for you then. Well, that gave us an insight and helped us figure out how to navigate often our fragile relationships with the managers. The way to having access to a positive, nurturing and stimulating work environment comes down to the simple step of transparent communication. Being on the same page with a manager is the answer for all those employees who wish to work well with their bosses and learn. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of workwise with Naukri. I hope you enjoyed listening to this episode. If you did, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening to this. Also, do share this with your friends who would benefit from this episode. I'm curious to know, how do you manage your manager? Is there anything that we all can learn from? You can share your perspective on Twitter and LinkedIn and use the hashtag workwise with Naukri. Three of the best perspectives will get a special surprise from us. So go ahead and share your perspective on your social media. Thanks again for listening to this episode. I am Deepak Parikh, and you are listening to workwise with Naukri, a career podcast from Naukri.com, produced by Vine Studio.