Doctor Chooses Homebirth After Medical System Failed Her with Katherine Michael

The transcription discusses the topic of home birth and features a guest, Catherine, who shares her experience of having a hospital birth followed by two home births. Catherine is a trained medical doctor and offers consulting services for fertility, pregnancy, birth support, and lactation. She discusses her initial perspective on home birth and the desire for a natural birth, influenced by her studies in public health and an understanding of the potential risks associated with medical interventions. The conversation highlights the misconception that only uneducated women choose home birth and emphasizes the importance of considering both the risks and benefits of different birthing options. I'm going to give you a couple of minutes to think about this. Would a doctor ever choose to birth her baby at home? Why, I'd love to tell you. Yes, I am finding more and more medical professionals stand up and say, this isn't right and I want a different way when it comes to health and home birth. Today, my guest comes on the show to share her story of her first hospital birth and consecutive two free births. Catherine is a trained medical doctor with a master's from Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, where she studied reproductive biology and maternal and child health. She finished her IBCLC while on maternity leave from medical school. She now has three daughters and her husband is an ER doctor for the U.S. Air Force. Catherine works from home offering consulting for fertility, pregnancy, birth support, and lactation. She's also a homeschooling mama, so I know you guys are going to love her and love this episode. She really took what took me years to learn about home birth and the reason why everyone should consider this as an option to condense it down into this small little episode. I know you're going to want to take notes and maybe listen to it a second time for sure. If you know a friend that is questioning whether or not home birth is for her, please send it. This is an amazing opportunity to share the message of peaceful home birth with more listening ears. So before we get into the episode, I do have some quick questions for you. And if any of these sound like you, I want you to listen close. So number one, is this your first home birth and you're wondering about the logistics for preparing? Number two, is this your first baby and you don't really even know where to start learning about birth in general? Number three, are you new to the holistic health world and you would like some advice and guidance on some options to incorporate more natural choices into this pregnancy and birth? If any of these sound like you, then schedule a free 15 minute confidence call with me so I can help you find your next best step when it comes to preparing for a peaceful home birth. So you can do that by going to bit.ly slash one five confidence. All right, let's get into the show. Welcome to the Peaceful Home Birth Podcast, where your journey to a joyful and empowered birth experience begins. I'm your host, Allie McClain, a registered nurse, home birth coach, devoted wife and proud mother to four incredible kiddos. I've walked the path from trauma to triumph, and I'm here to guide you every step of the way. At the Peaceful Home Birth Podcast, we're more than just a show. We're a community of dreamers, believers and fearless mothers-to-be. If you're seeking to reclaim your birth story, to transform fear into confidence and to embrace the beauty of home birth, you've found your tribe. My own transformative journey began with a traumatic C-section, propelling me on a quest to uncover the power of home birth. And now I'm on a mission to help you rise above your past, prevent needless C-sections and stand firmly in the certainty of your dream birth. As a devoted follower of Jesus, I believe that His divine design for birth is inherently good and is a reflection of His love, strength and grace. If the dream of home birth has been planted on your heart, know that it's there for a purpose. And I'm here to stand with you as you pursue it wholeheartedly. In a world filled with racing thoughts and doubts, I'm your guide to taking those thoughts captive, making them obedient to Christ and replacing them with the liberating truth. Together, we'll navigate the challenges that lie ahead, finding not only freedom, but also unbridled joy on your path to motherhood. This podcast is a haven for the woman who has faced the darkness of a traumatic birth and has questioned whether home birth is within her reach. Here, we shatter souls' towns. Join us for illuminating interviews with remarkable birth workers who share our reverence for the sanctity and splendor of birth. Listen to inspiring women as they recount their triumphant birth stories, each a testament to the strength that resides within you. So whether you're just starting to explore the world of home birth, or you're already on this radiant journey, the Peaceful Home Birth Podcast is your sanctuary, your wellspring of knowledge, and your unwavering support system. Get ready to be inspired, to be empowered, and to embark on a path that leads you to the birth you've always dreamed of. It's time to experience the Holy Spirit's power, to embrace the beauty of birth, and to create a legacy of love and strength. Are you ready to transform your birth experience? Let's dive in. Thanks, Catherine, for joining me on the show. I'm so excited to hear your story and to see where you came from and how your last birth turned out. It is going to be so amazing. I already know it, but for people who don't know you, would you just give a little bit of a background, who you are and what you do? Sure. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here, and I'm excited to share about my experience and my birth. So my name is Catherine Michael. I am an M.D. I also have my master's from the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, where I studied reproductive biology and a certificate in maternal and child health. And I also did my undergrad there. That was in molecular and cellular biology. And I, during medical school, became an IBCLC, which is an International Board Certified Lactation Consultant. I think that's all my letters right now. I'm married. I got married my first year in medical school to my college sweetheart. And we have three daughters, currently five, three, and one-year-old. My husband is in the military, so we have moved around a little bit. We're currently in Virginia getting ready for another PCS next summer. And, yeah, that's basically all of my background info. Yes, I love it. So you are extremely well-resourced and well-educated. And I think a common misconception for many people is that only uneducated, selfish women choose home birth. So I would love to hear what your thoughts were on home birth when you were having your first baby or birth in general. Would you just set the stage for us? What was it like when you first got pregnant and what led to the decisions that you made for your first pregnancy? Sure. So I grew up in the northeast, which I feel like is somewhat of a fast-paced area. It's mostly cities and, you know, hospitals. It's very – I had never heard of a home birth except maybe in old-fashioned movies. And it just wasn't something that was really talked about. But I knew going into my first pregnancy that I wanted things to be as natural as possible. Now, I didn't even at that point think there was a possibility of something outside of the hospital. So I found a practice with midwives because I knew that midwives tended to be more holistic, more what I thought, you know, would be natural to keep my pregnancy as, you know, cared for in that way as possible. And being in medicine as well, I, you know, had never heard of anyone doing something else outside of that. We didn't have any birth centers near me at the time. Now, five years later, they did open a birthing center near the hospital where I did give birth to my first. But, yes, so my view was very myopic, I suppose. And it feels – I felt like it was unheard of, I suppose, to have anything other than a hospital birth. Yeah, and that's true for most people. But where did you – where do you think the desire to have a natural birth even came from with your first one? I think – so before I had my first is when I did my master's. And when you study public health, it is more of a broad perspective, so a population-based statistics, epidemiology, things like that. So instead of clinical one-on-one care, it's, okay, what are the rates of this maternal morbidity or what are the causes of maternal mortality? What are the rates of this intervention? And so I really got a big picture idea of maternal and child health care in the country. And through that, I mean, that quickly raised my eyebrows to, oh, well, obviously these interventions and even elective things, you know, like an epidural or an elective C-section, they do have downsides, they have risks. And so I realized that it was the least risky to have the most hands-off birth. And so that's what fueled my intention to have a natural birth and to allow my body to do everything that it should do. I mean, I still didn't fully understand the lack of risk, I guess you could say, of, you know, emergencies that I thought, you know, you had to be in a hospital, but mainly for an emergency. That was my perspective. I didn't think you needed to be in a hospital to manage your birth. It was more like, you know, the just-in-case, which obviously that even changed later on, too. But, yeah, I knew that there wasn't any need to have constant intervention throughout the normal labor and delivery process. Oh, yeah. Wow, that's so good, coming from somebody who's actually seen the research and, like, dived into that. I think more people need to hear that is what we have been told is elective and it's a no-brainer. Like, everybody's getting an epidural because that's just normal. Like, that comes with risk, and people just don't have an idea of that. But that is so fascinating and helpful hearing that. And talking about the risk something, so I also have an interest in mental health and psychology. And so right now I do some perinatal and pregnancy mental health. And something that we always assess is something called risk versus risk versus benefit. And it's like you have to consider both the risk of doing something and the risk of not doing something or the benefit of not doing something. And so in the cases of some of the interventions, I feel like it's not always considered the other side of it. Like, what's the risk of not doing that or what's the risk of doing it and what's the benefit of not doing it? It's not often, you know, considered that holistically. It's really usually one-sided when you're making a decision about the interventions in birth. Yeah, that is so helpful for anybody out there who's trying to decide or, like, make decisions. It is so good to look at both sides of the benefits, both sides of the risk to get a bigger picture. That is really, really helpful. But wherever you want to start with your first birth, you know, you have a midwife and you're like, yes, I'm going to have this first birth. How did that go for you? Okay, so I'll kind of fast forward to the end-ish, but I suppose it kind of starts a little earlier. So maybe first trimester, they did a regular urine screen and I had, like, a mild UTI. And that's relevant because then later on in pregnancy, they said that I would have to be treated with antibiotics during labor because their, you know, their protocol was that if you tested positive for group B strep or UTI at any point during your pregnancy, they would automatically treat. And so that was relevant because my first daughter actually ended up being born a month early, and my group B strep test wasn't even back yet, but they prophylactically treated. So anyway, that's a side note on that. Now, getting to the point of her being born early, I had been going in for appointments. They were a little bit tricky to schedule because I was in medical school at the time, and so I remember I ended up having an appointment at 35 weeks. And it was supposed to be, you know, like 30, 32, 34, 36, but because of our scheduling, it was at 35. And they did a cervical check. And at this point, I was in my second year of medical school. I didn't know as much hands-on clinical, you know, stuff about what was necessary checking-wise and not. You know, it was one of those things I kind of learned through experience. So they did a cervical check, and I was like one and a half centimeters dilated. And my naive self was like, oh, my gosh, like I'm dilating already? Am I like in early labor? Because I had been having Braxton-Hicks contractions already. Anyway, my midwife said like, well, you could go into labor soon. You probably won't make it until next month. You know, all of these typical rhetoric that's really not evidence-based. And I got myself like excited and nervous kind of at the same time. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm going to have a baby. And you go all mom brain where you forget, you know, the facts and stuff, and you kind of just take their word for it. So anyway, then the following week, I went for another appointment because I was switching from the every two weeks to every one week at that point. And so at 36 weeks, I had an appointment, and unfortunately, this one was with one of the OBs in the practice because it was a practice that had midwives and OBs, and you weren't guaranteed the same provider each time. And so this provider had long nails, which is completely like it's frowned upon in the OB world to have long or pointy nails because, one, it's uncomfortable, but it's also potentially dangerous. And in this case, when she did a cervical check on me, and actually, you know, when you're checking someone's cervix for dilation, you physically insert your fingers into the cervix to determine, to use your fingers as the measurement for how dilated it is. So it's not possible to, like, measure without doing that, whether you're intending to sweep or not. And so she did that, and I remember it being painful. And she was like, yeah, you're about two centimeters, which is enough for her, you know, fingers. And then a few hours later, we had gone to the grocery store, and I had the, like, wetness in my pants. So it was like, did I pee myself, which, like, could have totally possibly been the thing. But, of course, my husband and I being, like, in science, we're both in science and medicine, we had pH strips at home. And so we were like, well, we'll check it to see, because urine and amniotic fluid have different pHs. And I was like, okay, it's definitely, you know, a water leak. But I didn't want to go into the hospital just yet. And I was trying to decide what to do, and I'm like, okay, my water technically broke. But I knew my goals of being as natural as possible meant I wanted to labor as much as I could at home. And so it was about seven or eight hours that I labored at home, and I ended up calling the midwife just to, like, let them know. And, of course, right when I let her know that the water had broken, they said, you know, come in immediately. You have to come in, because you need the, you know, the antibiotics. And so at 1 a.m., instead of being home and, like, resting in the middle of the night, which really I should have done, it was 1 a.m. the 26th. I went to the hospital. They said I was contracting. They were so surprised that I wasn't in any pain, because I was having really, like, strong, frequent contractions. But I wasn't really progressing. I was still two centimeters when I got there. And so she said, well, I'll give you a few hours, and then we should start Pitocin to essentially induce you. And, again, being a second-year med student, I didn't know all of the options. I did know, you know, especially from public health school, how important the last few weeks of pregnancy are for brain development and that continued growth. Like, there's so much maturation that happens during those last few weeks and why it's so important for babies to, like, come on their own time. But, I mean, I was unprepared. I truly was. So when I went in, yeah, the midwife was like, we're just going to have to induce you because, you know, your water is broken. I also had no idea that with a trickle break, which is basically what I had, which is probably just, like, a little puncture from the fingernails, it could have healed itself. It could have removed over. My body was still making amniotic fluid. These were all things I just – I wasn't an expert in yet, because, like I said, the master's degree is more population-based. It's not that clinical, like, you know, immediate what happens during labor and birth. It's more the statistics side of things. So, anyway, like, 8 a.m. or 7 a.m., they started me on Pitocin, and that really did kick things up. And every hour or two hours, they increased the dose, increased the dose, increased the dose. And I kept feeling them. Like, I was feeling that I was having the contractions, but they were just like, well, we'll just keep increasing it. And finally, she came in to check me at, like, 4 p.m. So, mind you, this is about 23 hours since my water broke, and it's about 15 hours after being in the hospital. And I was at about 4 centimeters. So, after 8 hours on Pitocin, I was still only at 4 centimeters, and they were like, you know, we'll give you a little bit more time. That was one thing. I mean, if I have to be neutral, like, one thing I was happy about having a midwife is she knew my goal was, you know, to be as natural as possible, and that I, you know, in that vein, did not want to have a C-section. So, she was giving me, like, some flexibility. I do remember not telling them, like, exactly the time my water broke because I didn't want to be on that 24-hour clock. And I was just like, oh, yeah, it just broke, like, an hour ago. And so, she did say, she's like, okay, we'll give you a little bit more time. Like, and she's like, I can break your water a little bit more now to see if that helps. And I remember when she said that thinking to me, like, are you kidding me? Why did you put me on Pitocin when there was a non-chemical, like, medication option that you could have done? Like, I had never heard of that before. Like, and now, in retrospect, I know it's the, when you separate the amniotic sac from the uterine wall, it actually releases more oxytocin receptors that can allow your uterus to respond even more to your natural oxytocin and, if necessary, the exogenous Pitocin that they're giving you. So, anyway, she did that. There was still a gush of fluid. So, there was clearly fluid still in there, even though I had this trickle water break. So, she essentially ruptured the membrane. And at that point, about an hour later, I started vomiting. Like, you know, I was up to, like, 26 or 28 on the Pitocin. And so, it was kind of like I had been going up and up and up without having any receptors. Then they, like, opened the floodgates. I had all these receptors. And then the Pitocin really hit. So, I was having hypersystole, or tachysystole. Like, the, I was having contractions that were 30 seconds long, 10 seconds break. A minute long, 10 seconds break. Like, I was having contractions on top of contractions. And I was, like, I was going to the bathroom multiple times. They had me on a, oh, I forgot to mention this part. I wanted to labor in the tub. That was always, like, my goal. But because of the whole, okay, we're putting you on Pitocin, you have to have continuous fetal monitoring. You can't have the intermittent fetal monitoring. And so, because you need continuous fetal monitoring, you can't be in the water. And so, I wasn't even able to be in the shower. Because they did have a shower and a tub available at the hospital, in the room I picked and everything. So, I did ask for a HEPLOC. And I, even for the continuous, they were able to put the thing on my belly with the band. But I was moving so much that they were, like, they couldn't keep it on the baby. And I was, like, I don't care. You can stay away from me. I wasn't really letting anybody, like, come in to fix the monitor. So, now fast forward about two hours or so after she did the water breaking. So, that was sometime between 4 and 5 p.m. Then this was, like, between 6 and 7. I called a friend of mine who is a labor and delivery nurse who had been helping me just with encouragement. And I said, you know, it's been 26 hours since my water broke. It's been 11 hours on Pitocin. I am starting to feel really exhausted. Mind you, I had been awake since that day before. So, my water broke at 5 p.m., but I had been awake since, like, 9 a.m. that day. So, I was coming up on 32, 33 hours a week. And so, I was, like, I think I'm going to have to get an epidural. And, you know, she was just, like, supportive of my decision in the moment, which maybe wasn't the best idea because knowing what my preferences were when I was thinking straight was, like, I don't want to have an epidural. But I was, like, I think I'm going to do this because I was only at 4 centimeters. And if there's at least 6 more hours of this, because that's what you expect in the hospital, it's, like, they say 1 centimeter an hour, like, which is completely out of 1950s, like, just bad info. But regardless, that's what I had in my head. I'm, like, 6 more hours. I can't do this. I really thought that. And so, I remember asking the nurse, I'm, like, can we request an epidural at this point? And so, she called my midwife. It took, like, a half hour for the midwife to come back. And the midwife was, like, thankfully, thank God. She was, like, oh, Catherine, you're only 4 centimeters. We don't want to give you an epidural. That could stall labor too soon. And I was, like, really? Okay. So, and I'm glad because now, you know, updated since then, ACOG, we don't even consider labor to be active until 6 centimeters. So, I wouldn't even have been considered in active labor. I wouldn't even have been in the hospital if I hadn't had my membranes ruptured. So, anyway, so she declined me the epidural. And I'm, like, okay. But at that point, the contractions were excruciating. And speaking from my experience of the subsequent birth, like, pitocin contractions on that high of a dose, especially without a minute in between, was, like, the worst thing. Like, I literally was screaming in the bed saying I was going to die. And the nurses were, like, you're scaring other people on the floor. But and my midwife heard me from, like, down the hall, you know, where they're just, like, sitting and waiting. And she's, like, well, we could try to give you something in your IV. And I was, like, okay, like, whatever. Just please give me something because I'm in so much pain. So, I kept feeling like I had to go to the bathroom. So, I was in the bathroom. And finally, I think it's, like, it's got to be 745 at this point. The nurse comes in and she was, like, okay, Catherine, like, I brought you some, like, Dilaudid. I can put it in. She's, like, I'm entering it into the system now. You're just going to have to come over so I can connect it to your hep lock and everything. And so, I'm, like, oh, my gosh. So, I have to come from the bathroom. I had to get myself up on this high hospital bed. And as she's getting ready to, like, plug in the IV or the bag, I guess, to the hep lock, I, like, feel pressure, you know, in between my legs. And, like, I reached down and I said to the nurse, I'm, like, I think I feel this baby's head. And she thought I was crazy. And she looks down and then she literally starts yelling into the hallway, room 13 is crowding. And, like, so then my midwife comes running. And I don't know who else came running. I felt like there was a whole bunch of people. And I wasn't even at a teaching hospital, so there weren't going to be residents and med students. I knew that because that's one thing I knew as a med student. I didn't want to be at a hospital with, like, other students and all that. And so she comes running in. And I was, like, very thankful because the one thing my midwife did have that we had planned was olive oil to help with the ring of fire. And this was my first. I do not – I did not feel that with my second and third. But with the first, the ring of fire, especially I was in a lymphotomy position because I had to get on the bed to get the medication. And then once I was already on the bed, they were like, oh, your baby's coming out. And then they started pushing my legs back. It was terrible. But she did pour the olive oil on, and that helped. So, yeah, then the baby was born 10 minutes later. She was born at 8.02 p.m. And I was relieved at that point that I didn't get any of the medication or the epidural or anything like that and that it was, like, faster. And then I ultimately realized in retrospect and then also with the knowledge of my subsequent birth that the extreme pain that I started feeling at, like, 6.30, 7 o'clock was transition. And, again, I wouldn't necessarily even call it extreme pain if there wasn't that presence of pitocin. But the pitocin transition and the not knowing what was going on was very intense. So then after that, I mean, it continued to be a little bit traumatic because I did have immediate skin-to-skin. That's something that I had requested. I used a birth plan going into it to know, like, okay, there are certain things I can request. But I still wasn't even aware of all the choices that I really had. And so while the baby is on my chest, the midwife is pressing on my belly so hard and very uncomfortably. And I'm, like, still in pain. And I'm kind of, like, trying to smack them away. Like, I'm like, you're hurting me. Please get away from me, you know. And then while I'm trying to, like, see my baby for the first time, they're just, like, pressing and pressing and then tugging at the placenta. And then, like, I essentially couldn't focus on my baby because they wanted me to birth the placenta immediately. And, yeah, and so then that happened. And then I don't think there was anything, like, too much more, like, med-wise after that. Except, I mean, after that, okay, actually there was more. Since she was a month early, they were concerned about her glucose levels. So they were immediately doing glucose sticks. And they had me triple feeding. So they gave me a pump in the hospital. And they were so surprised at how much squastrum I was making. They were, like, oh, like, wow, you're actually making stuff. People usually don't. But they told me, they were, like, oh, you're going to breastfeed the baby, then we'll give her formula after. And I said, no, you won't. And at this point the hospital was not baby friendly. The hospital is now baby friendly where I gave birth, but it wasn't at the time. And so that was just their protocol for a preemie or someone who was triple feeding. And I had to decline it or else it was going to happen. And so if I hadn't known, like, what was normal and, you know, what that I could just ‑‑ I was, like, why would I not just use my own squastrum to supplement? Why would you just, you know, automatically do formula? That was pretty triggering. And I also remember the pediatrician coming in to visit saying, oh, breastfeeding is going well. That's great. Well, if it doesn't, that's okay. It doesn't matter. I literally remember her saying it doesn't matter. I was, like, triggered in the hospital. And I'm, like, I'm supposed to be in, like, you know, euphoria and heaven, like, enjoying my baby, and instead I'm being triggered by these what I thought were, like, idiots who are, like, giving me bad advice, potentially sabotaging my, like, journey and just bothering me. So, yeah, so that's my long story of the first birth. I'll stop there for a second, and then we can move on. Well, I mean, if you were to tell somebody your story from a place where you have not gone on to have more home birth or more births and know that that was not normal, you know, people would say, oh, well, you got your natural birth. Yeah, you had Pitocin, but it was natural. You didn't get enough dural. You didn't get drugs. Like, I think that there is such a disconnect between what has been normalized and what actually is normal when it comes to birth. And so even just, like, listening to your story, it is that story is not uncommon. And so many women have experienced the same thing and don't know that they're actually traumatized. Like, you put trauma on somebody, but also you're like, how can you go through that and not be traumatized? Yeah, and I think there's some women who internally are traumatized or at least upset by some of the things that happen, but they're so, like, flooded with the idea of as long as your baby's alive and you're alive, that's fine. And also the anything that happened that went wrong was your fault and the hospital was fixing it. Like, and in my case, I at least realized that what happened was iatrogenic, meaning the doctors caused it. Like, that little trickle, water break, the whole needing an induction, the whole, like, you know, everything, every, like, step of the way. If they had given my baby formula, it would have all been this cascade that was caused by them. And then the other people would have been like, well, you know, thank God the doctors solved their own problem. And it's just, yeah, most people don't have the validation. Like, people aren't validating them if they say something of like, oh, wait, that shouldn't have happened, you know, like that. Or, you know, you're forced into gratefulness. And so everyone is just so grateful for the doctors and the hospitals that they had that they can't, you know, complain or even just reflect. Not that it's complaining, but just to reflect on what may have been a boundary crossing or a violation or what may have been not okay for them or not against their wishes or, you know, anything. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And again, just listen to your story. I also had the contractions that were Pitocin that were one after the other. And I had to get medication to stop the contractions because there was fetal distress, which ultimately led to a C-section. And it's like, but when I told people that story, I had felt so deeply harmed by that because I felt misled. They had told me the oxytocin they were giving me was just in that my body's natural hormone. Right. They're not telling you it's actually a synthetic chemical going into your body to force your body to do something it wasn't wanting to do. Right. And yeah, I don't think I don't think they actually monitor with an intention to adjust, because that's one thing I forgot to mention from my story was when my Pitocin was that high. And like I said, once the amniotic sac was broken, it was kind of like the floodgates were open. And all of a sudden, all that all that Pitocin was really working. I asked them multiple times, the nurses, anyone I was feeding with them. I'm like, we need to shut off the Pitocin. We need to shut like turn it down, like lower it, something, because I am contracting. I'm having frequent contractions. It's done its job. Pitocin is really just to trigger your own body into active labor and regular contractions. And so I was begging them and they wouldn't do anything. And so I went over to the machine that was dispensing the Pitocin. And I pressed stop and I stopped the Pitocin. This was probably at about 630 or 7 or maybe it was after I asked for the epidural. I don't remember, but I was in just continuous contraction after contraction. And so after about a minute of the pressing the stop button, the machine would start alarming. I didn't know their machines or anything, but it would start like notifying. And I kept having to push silence. But look at that. Like I ended up getting birth an hour and a half later when I stopped the Pitocin myself. And God forbid if I had not done that, I may have ended up with a baby in distress and an emergency C-section. But were they listening to me? I had asked. I asked people. I said, I am having contraction after contraction. Why do you think I'm screaming and scaring the people down the hall? Because I'm not getting a normal, you know, every two minutes, every one minute. No, it was 10 seconds, 15 seconds break, which is abnormal. Yeah. And it wasn't your brain releasing the hormone. It was a synthetic hormone going into your bloodstream. You know, it's like working the way that it was designed to work. So, yeah, of course, there's going to be issues that come from that. And, oh, man, you're okay. So that was your first story. And unlike so many women, there was something that happened that made you say, you know what, there might be a different way. What was it that kind of opened your eyes to there is a different way and I'm going to do it? I think, like I said, I went into my birth with a birth plan. I thought that I was aware of, like, the different choices that I had, the different options, and I felt empowered going into my birth. It wasn't until after the fact that I realized when I was reflecting the different violations that happened and learning more about what was unnecessary. Firstly, you know, I realized that the cervical checks were unnecessary. And I follow evidence-based birth. I was interested in that kind of before and after just because that was my interest. You know, OB and family, maternal and child health in general was my interest. And right around the time, like, after I had my daughter, they published their evidence on cervical checks. And it, you know, was proven that they are completely unnecessary. There's really no useful information that they give you before you are in active labor. And even, you know, once you're in active labor, it's still, you know, borderline if there's any benefit to it because it introduces bacteria into the canal. There's the possibility of an accidental rupture of the membranes. There's just, you know, it can actually cause stress and cause recontraction of the cervix as you're dilating. I mean, there's just multiple side effects to it that I didn't, I wasn't aware of. And so when I realized that, when I realized, I feel like that was the first thing that completely lost my trust in the medical providers. Because I'm like, why would they do something to me that wasn't medically necessary, especially if there's a risk associated with it? If it's not a benign intervention. And I was like, well, clearly they're, you know, making these decisions based on not, you know, the most updated evidence in education. And so that was a big thing that I became passionate about telling people, like, decline your cervical checks. Decline all cervical checks. You do not need these cervical checks. Like, please do this. And I've always tried to have, like, a humble perspective with things that I experience rather than kind of, like, biased positively. And so with my baby being born a month early, I feel like the one position you could take is, oh, she was born a month early. My baby's fine. Like, if your baby has to be born a month early, that's fine, too. They're going to be fine. My baby's perfect. And, like, yes, I think my daughter's perfect. I love her more than anything. But I also can recognize that she is different than she may have been if things didn't go the way they did. And, you know, I don't want to violate her privacy too much, but she has some developmental differences. And she was treated in early intervention in her first year of life and later because of her brain not having the last four weeks to develop. And so, like I said, you could ‑‑ I mean, I'm grateful for my daughter regardless and that she's happy and healthy, but I am not a believer that fine is fine. That's not enough for me. I believe in health optimization. I want for myself and for my patients to have the best outcomes. I'm not merely trying to keep you alive or to just keep you from dying. I want you to be the best that, you know, you can be. I want you to have the best experience. I want their health to be optimized. And so when I think about that with my own daughter, I was robbed of that because of something that was not evidence-based. And so I became passionate about that. And then I also ‑‑ I mean, in my case, I felt like I thought I needed the Pitocin. I was kind of taught that. But in any other case where Pitocin isn't medically necessary, there was some more data that came out later on, kind of more recently, about the risks of Pitocin with regards to postpartum depression and then possibly even with breastfeeding. And so when I learned about that, I suffered with postpartum depression with all three of my babies. But I had depression even while I was pregnant with my first one. And so I was like, well, having depression while you're pregnant is in itself a risk factor for having depression afterward. And in medicine, if we know someone has a risk factor for someone, for something, we don't want to give them additional things that will predispose them to that outcome. And so it bothered me mainly in retrospect. So seeing me having gotten the Pitocin, and then I think this kind of hit me when I did my clinicals. So when I was doing OB-GYN in the hospital, seeing women given Pitocin for no reason other than failure to progress, without their waters having broken, there was no need truly to progress labor, and they had had a history of depression. And I was like, why are these providers giving this medication that could have a negative side effect, especially when this woman has a predisposition to this outcome? I mean, postpartum depression is a huge cause of maternal mortality in the United States and across the world. And so to just be flippantly using it because someone's not progressing as quickly as you could, I just became really passionate about, you know, that issue as well. And while I was on my OB-GYN rotations, ACOG, or around then, they made it their protocol, or maybe it was when my hospital took this as their protocol, to give every woman peripartum Pitocin, regardless of if she was induced or not, as a prophylactic measure against postpartum hemorrhage. Because the Pitocin can, you know, make sure that the uterus is contracting post-birth, you know, to clamp down and close those vessels, but it was just given universally, without considering what's that woman's risk for postpartum hemorrhage, or what's the woman's risk for postpartum depression, and weighing those factors against each other. It really bothered me that it was just being given blanket, you know, everybody's the same. You get a cookie-cutter treatment, you know, because we're going to try to solve our issue of women dying to postpartum hemorrhage by giving everyone else, you know, this medication, because we haven't figured out a better way to treat this issue, which, mind you, is caused by a lot of the things that doctors do, like inductions and, you know, long labors, and Pitocin in itself, during labor, is a risk factor for postpartum hemorrhage. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, you literally laid out so much right there. I think, you know, listeners, you're going to have to go back and, because this took, it took me years of looking at research to get what you just said in, like, 10 minutes, you know, realized. So there is so much out there, but those are so important for people to understand. So, again, go back, re-listen to that, because that was so, so important and amazing. And thank you for that. So you getting into your next birth. Yes, redemption. Oh, the redemption birth. There's something special about them, isn't there? So you can share whatever you would like, whatever you want to start with that. Okay, great. So I was pregnant two years later with my second daughter. And at this point, I was doing rotations in the hospital. So I was due at the end of having done, like, every specialty that we do. And I knew at that point, like, okay, there's a difference between a midwife who works and delivers in a hospital and works with other OBGYNs and a community midwife. I kind of learned that there was that difference. And I really just learned that there were other options. And you know what? I think it was during my second pregnancy, someone, I really wish I remember who, because they were like pivotal in my life, told me about Ina May's Guide to Childbirth. And I read that book while I was pregnant. And it was so, it was my first introduction to, like, out of hospital birth. So I know there's a lot of people in the free birth community who don't even, like, love that book anymore, because it's even too medical for them. But for me, it was kind of this introduction that I was like, wow, like, this woman is talking about birth in a relatable way, like, teaching me as a normal person, whether I was in medicine or not, about my body, about my experience, about what I could control. And I really appreciated that. And so it wasn't even until about halfway into my pregnancy that I decided I wanted to give birth at home. And honestly, the main decision, like, breaker for that was the finances. It was, well, I could give birth in a hospital for free again. I mean, although with my daughter, the plan that we were on, I had a 10% coinsurance. And so I did end up spending about $3,500 out of pocket with my first birth at the hospital. But so the second time, we had different insurance, and it could have been free. And so I remember thinking, like, well, is it worth it? And I remember coming to the decision that my peace and my comfort and my independence was worth it, because I still didn't feel like I had enough independence in the hospital to declare my decisions and my priorities with regards to my birth. And so at that point, I probably could have and would have birthed completely alone, like with my husband. But when I presented the idea to other people besides my husband, they were very concerned. And so I did decide to hire a midwife because I'm a data-driven person, right? I use data to convince other people of things. And the data out there shows that for a low-risk pregnancy without, you know, complications, that a home birth attended by a midwife has non-different outcomes than a hospital birth. And so I employed a midwife, and I found a very nice one who would take me at 30 weeks of pregnancy without having had, like, you know, I think I had some blood work that I was able to give her, but otherwise I hadn't been getting regular prenatal care because I didn't need them to tell me anything that I already knew. And so she did take me on and said she would attend my birth. And, you know, I did that because I wanted to reassure everyone else that I'll have a provider who is very skilled in birth, knows what to look for, knows what to expect. You know, we live five minutes from a hospital or whatever. Like, you know, I had to explain to everyone the process of home birth because, like I said, I was in the Northeast. It wasn't heard of. And I think a lot of people who have never heard of home birth literally think that it's home birth or die. Like, they don't realize that when you're having a home birth, there's always the possibility of calling an ambulance or transporting to the hospital or even potentially having a C-section later on, just like when you're giving birth in a regular room, how they can transport you to the C-section. Like, we're not all giving birth in ORs, are we? Like, just in case, no, we're not. Like, there's steps along the way that you can look for. And I think so many people don't think of that. They're like, well, what if this happens? Like, what if you're starting to bleed? Most people don't hemorrhage and die in 30 minutes. I mean, that's the reality of it. And there are things that you can learn to get you there. And so it took a lot of educating on my part for other people and educating myself. And anyway, I had that midwife that I paid money for and everything, and I really did that for other people, not for myself. And so when I went into labor, it's such a fun story. I really love it. The day that my daughter was born, we had gone for a bike ride, my husband, me, our dogs. I was riding a bike. I was 39 weeks and 5 days pregnant. And we came home. I was having Braxton Hicks contractions, or what I thought were those. We were coloring, doing chalk in the front yard, and I was still nursing my first baby. I nursed all through pregnancy, and that was another thing I knew for sure was completely fine. There is no increased risk of miscarriage. There is no increased risk of preterm labor. Unless you have other confounding factors, there is no downside or risk to breastfeeding a baby while you're pregnant and continuing to breastfeed. So anyway, I nursed her. It ends up being her bedtime. So it was like 8 o'clock. I asked my husband, can you go take her to bed? Because at that point, we had been transitioning her to him getting her to sleep because we knew the new baby was coming. And he takes her to bed, and I said, I think my contractions are picking up. We'll see if we get sleep. Maybe we'll be able to go to sleep because that was another thing I learned from my first birth is whenever you can sleep, go to sleep. If it's nighttime, you try to sleep. You do not get yourself all excited to be up all night in early labor and then lose a night of sleep. You want to sleep. So I texted the midwife and said, hey, I think things might be tonight, but go get some rest. So then I did some spinning babies just for the optimizing position. I wasn't breached. We knew she was head down, but I did have symphysis pubis dysfunction for the second time. I had it both pregnancies. And so that often helped me just to be more comfortable. And also doing the different stretches helped when I had gas. So when I felt all, like, stuck up or constipated, I would do that through my pregnancy. And so that night I started to feel that. I felt some gas or contractions, didn't know which was which, was doing spinning babies. And then things started to pick up. And so I'd say around 9 o'clock I told my husband, you're not going to sleep, but, like, we're still going to take it easy. I said, I'm going to actually braid my hair and do my makeup. Because that was one thing I knew. I wanted to, like, feel good during my birth. And so I'm like, well, if this is really it, I'm going to do that. And so there's pictures of me French braiding my own hair while I'm, like, having a contraction. And then I'd say, like, maybe 9.30ish I called my midwife and said, oh, hey, like, I don't think you should go to sleep. But I don't want you to come yet because I want to labor as much as I can on my own. I knew that. I was not getting a midwife for the idea of having her present during birth to do monitoring or interventions. I was literally getting a midwife to, like, placate myself and everyone else that I had a midwife just in case, you know. And so, yeah, I kind of was just walking around and she was like, all right, well, then if you don't want me to come right now, how about you just call me when you can't breathe through, like, a contraction, when you can't talk through a contraction. I said, okay. So then a half hour later, 40 minutes, I had gotten in just a regular bathtub for some relief because I thought it was too early to put hot water in the birthing tub because I had a blow-up birthing tub and everything that was downstairs in the dining room because that was a tile floor. That was the only place we had that was big enough for a tub with tiles. So I was like, I don't want to fill that up yet because then it will get cold by the time I need it, blah, blah, blah. And so I was in the tub upstairs and things started to feel like they were progressing where I had to get out of the tub to sit on the toilet. So I tell my husband, you know what, go downstairs and fill the real tub because I do think things are progressing. And I remember telling him at, like, maybe before this, like, so before I got in the regular tub, I was like, you know, this feels very similar to how I felt at 630 when I was giving birth to Lily. I remember that having that parallel of knowing how things were progressing with Lily when I was about to ask for the epidural. And this time I was like, it feels like that. And he was like, really? Like, that was only an hour and a half before she was born. I'm like, yeah, but that's how this feels right now. And that's just a side note so you remember that. Yeah, that was at, like, 930. And so anyway, he went downstairs to fill up the other tub. I was in the bathroom. And at about 10, 15, I called my midwife again. I was like, all right, I don't think I can really make it through a contraction because I had to groan, which I was really practicing my, like, deep moans to keep all my muscles loose. And that was something I had learned in the guide to childbirth, you know, just different tips for relaxing. And while we were on the phone, me and my midwife, I groaned through a contraction. She was like, Catherine, she was like, it sounds like you're pushing. Are you pushing? And I was like, I don't know, Sam. I have no idea if I'm pushing. I'm just sitting on the toilet, and it feels like I'm having a contraction, and it hurts. And she's like, I'm getting in the car right now. She's like, it sounds like you're pushing. And I was like, okay. And so then we hung up. We hung up because she was going to drive. And then, like, a minute later, or, like, maybe it was five minutes, maybe, like, two contractions later, my water broke into the toilet. So I was sitting on there. And at that point it hadn't broke yet, so it broke in a huge gush, which is how it's supposed to be in my experience. I was like, that's how I wanted it to be, shall I say. And then I just needed to stand up, and I was holding on to my sink. And I guess, like, ten minutes later I called Sam back because I was like, all right, I'm still alone, and I need someone just to talk to. And so I'm like, Sam, things are really hard. Like, can you just, like, talk to me? And she's like, yeah, just breathe. She's like, do you feel anything? And I'm like, yeah, I do. I feel, like, a lot of pressure. And she's like, do you feel pressure? Like, you have to poop? And I'm like, yeah, I feel a lot of pressure. And she's like, okay, can you reach down and see, you know, what you feel? And I'm like, yeah, I feel the baby's head, for sure. And she's like, okay, Catherine, like, you're doing this. It's okay. She's like, I'll be there in a little while. She's like, you'll be fine. And so through the next three contractions I screamed for my husband, who, mind you, is downstairs. And my daughter was sleeping. And so I'm screaming, Randy, Randy. And finally, he comes up and opens the door. And the baby's head is out. I'm squatting. And I'm like, can you please catch the baby? Because I was in a position where I didn't feel like I could catch her without dropping her because I was standing up. And so, yeah, real quick, he was so shocked. And he's like, oh, yeah, sure. And he, like, reaches down, grabs her, you know, handed her to me. And I just sat down on the bathroom floor. I was leaning against the bathtub, holding her. And then Sam got there, like, ten minutes later, which, you know, I don't regret having her because it was helpful the first time of, like, just cleaning up, getting me to bed, making me feel comfortable. She took a few photos of my family, like of us all together. She did an official, like, weight and length and, you know, helped with all that. So it was nice to have someone else there after the birth. And she made a little, like, home birth certificate. It was cute. But, yeah, I mean, she was born at 10.38 p.m. And so going back and all of that, like, it was 8.30 when my oldest went to bed and when I started to feel like I might be in labor. And then at 9.30, I had said, like, you know, this feels a lot like 6.30 with baby number one. And then she was born an hour later. And so that was very reassuring to me. I was like, oh, my gosh, like, I was actually aware enough to know what my body was doing and where I was in labor just by what I was feeling. It was like it was so cool. Like, that birth was so, that's when I really learned my power as, like, a mom and what I was able to do, what our bodies were meant to do, like, when I was not being told or, you know, touched by anyone else. Yeah, that connectedness of the mom and the baby is a really empowering feeling to know that. And I think most, I know this is kind of a mistake I made, and you hear about that. And then as a first-time home birth mom, I really didn't experience the connectedness that I did as much with my second and third home births. So I think you just get better and better, like, the more you go through that. And so, you know, if you're listening and you've never had a natural birth before, you might not get that totally, but you might, too. And I think if you practice during pregnancy, like, that kind of mindfulness and checking in with the baby and checking in with your body, that does help for that connectedness during labor. So I love that you brought up that feeling of being connected because I think it does, it is something to be mindful of and to, I don't know, it's just fun to experience. So you had that amazing experience, and how was postpartum for you? What made you decide to make the decision for your third? Yeah, so that whole transition. The postpartum period was great, I mean, especially from, like, that night. I mean, giving birth at 10.38 p.m. and being able to, you know, I rinsed off in the bath, basically like a sitz bath, got into bed, like, nursed my baby, went to sleep. By, I think it was, like, 1 or 2 a.m. I was just going to sleep, and that was wonderful. And to not be woken up every hour with heel sticks and this and that and just the lights. And it's kind of things that you don't realize until you don't have to have them, you know? No, probably not. Or did she do the massage? Oh, no, no. Nothing after. So, I mean, I, baby was still connected to me when I went to, from the bathroom to the bedroom. And then, I think it was, you know, maybe like a half hour, 45 minutes later that I was just kind of, it was mainly a discomfort of the baby still being attached to the placenta that I was like, oh, let's, you know, can we just birth the placenta because it's, you know, she's stuck, you know? And so, we did, I, like, did some, we did some gentle traction and, you know, birthed right away. And then, we cut, you know, clamped her cord and cut it. So, it was very done full thing. It was, like, completely nice. And, oh, that brings me back to the other thing about hospital birth, number one, and hospital birth in general is I had requested delayed cord clamping with my first. And I thought that was just the thing, request delayed cord clamping. Little did I know, everybody has different definitions of what delayed cord clamping is. And so, I think they did maybe two minutes, which was very delayed, like, you know, for them because the hospital where I did my clinical rotations, they would do one minute when someone requested delayed cord clamping, one minute. And I, you know, I was, like, that's not delayed, you know, but they were telling women that that's what they were getting, you know. And so, it was kind of, like, this miscommunication. And so, anyway, knowing that and this time being able to witness, like, a white umbilical cord and know that my baby got all the blood that she needed and didn't struggle with any jaundice or any issue, you know, at all was great. And then afterward, I did have my placenta encapsulated both times, which I really, I mean, I personally, I know that's something that the evidence is kind of wishy-washy on, but from my anecdotal experience, I felt, like, more energized and more mood balanced when I took them. I did only take it for, like, a month or six weeks after the birth, but it was helpful for me. I knew it was, like, a nice local provider who was very careful. And so, yeah, my postpartum period was great. Now, with regards to the transition to baby number three, I knew, like, it really clicked in my head that that knowing of what my body was experiencing, aligning with that birth number one, I was, like, I know what's going on in my body. And that was only an hour and a half labor. So, twofold was my choice for a free birth was, one, my birth is really quick, my labor and birth. So, there is a good chance that even if I did have a midwife, they wouldn't make it again. And, two, would I even want them to make it? Like, I don't have a midwife for the purpose of medical monitoring or intervention. And so, what is the true benefit when the midwife who is there would be doing the same thing that me and my husband would be doing, which is, you know, monitoring myself, like, having self-awareness for what's going on, what am I feeling, where is the baby, like, am I feeling kicked? You know, like, just the things that I can be aware of is the same exact thing that the midwife would be doing. And I knew going into that birth, like, I prepared even more for that because I believe and I learned this and I truly, like, felt this during my third pregnancy that any woman can research enough, that any woman can be trained and become prepared in a similar way to what a midwife or a birthkeeper would be doing. Now, there is a spectrum of what some midwives do at home birth, like, from very hands-on, very medical monitoring to very hands-off, more of the birthkeeper just there to support you. And so, obviously, I'm not saying that you would have full medical training to be able to monitor for late B-cells or something like that. And if that's something that you're interested in, then you won't necessarily be able to get that education in the nine months that you're pregnant. But I do believe there's a lot of just connection, like you said, to your body, to your baby, intuition. There are some things you can do on your own, like if you wanted to check your blood pressure or if you want to just make sure you know what the baby moving feels like or just knowing those things to look for of what's abnormal during birth. Like, you can educate during those nine months what's a red flag, knowing like, oh, if I'm bleeding during birth, is that abnormal? Like, and know, okay, that would be a case if I noticed blood that I would transfer to a hospital and have a plan for that. And that's basically what I did with my third. And I do want to, I guess, admit or give in that there's a lot of people who think that I was unfairly, I guess, equipped for that because my husband and I are doctors. And yes, I do admit that we obviously have more medical training than the rest of the population. But honestly, the preparation that we did for our free birth was not so much medical training related. It was more preparation into things that we would have never learned in medical school about my body, about the baby, about what to expect, about like Ina May talks about of like how your labor is progressing, what you'll be feeling, how your brain is connecting with your uterus, like things like that. And so I don't, especially because we didn't do any monitoring or intervention, I don't think that it would be different for a non-medical provider having their own free birth because we weren't doing anything medical that you wouldn't be able to do yourself. So that's my like one disclaimer to that. But yeah, we went into it knowing we don't want to pay a bunch of money, basically, for someone whose services we might not use, essentially. That was a big thing. And I think I've mentioned this before, but not on the podcast. One of the big things was I progressed a lot in my faith in that I didn't feel like I had to be serving anyone else or convincing or persuading anyone else about my birth. I knew that I had faith in Jesus. I knew I was loved. I knew my decision was respected. And I didn't need to get anyone else human to understand or to respect it. And I am very grateful that I live in a free country. I mean, that is something that we talked about a little before. There are laws here and there. Never is home birth in itself illegal, but there are laws that restrict which providers can offer home birth as an option, which I think is a huge violation of rights and the choice that women should have, choice, like regards how you birth. But yeah, I'm grateful that I had that decision wholly myself and without any outside influences. And yeah, so we decided to do that ourselves. And I mean, it's a good thing we did because I don't even really have to tell you the third birth story because it's practically the same as the second birth story. I put my older two to bed. We had gone to church. Actually, it was a Sunday night. We went to an evening service at 6 p.m. The kids were doing their Christmas singing. So it was December 4th and they did their Christmas song. I saw my friends. I said, oh, we might be in labor, but I had been having early labor or like prodromal labor for a week. So I was like, I really can't tell you when this baby's going to come. But went home, put the kids to bed, did some dancing, some lift and tucks to kind of because I felt like by the third baby, my belly was stretched out a little bit more. So the baby's head isn't laying as vertically on the cervix, which could make those contractions a little less progressive. And so by doing the lift and tuck, I'm kind of pushing the baby more vertically so that there's a lot more pressure downward. And that did the trick. And so then baby number three was born at 1028 p.m. In the tub, in just my regular tub. We did not go for the blow up tub this time. We were like, that was a disaster. Randy almost missed the birth last time. This time we're mixing that. And so, yeah, she was born. I was standing up. Ran similarly, helped me kind of catch her, lifted her up to me. And we did the rest ourselves. It was easy just getting into bed. And it was so peaceful. And it was nice to have the intimacy between the two of us and not have to worry about anything else. I love that so much. Birth is just normal. And birth also isn't a medical event. So we don't need medical training to have a non-medical event. And I think that in and of itself gives women so much freedom. Like once you really realize that this event that has been treated as a medical event, that has been medicalized, isn't actually what they say it is. It's a very physiological, normal process. Exactly, exactly. It's a process that every woman's body can go through and many women's body do go through. And yeah, it doesn't need any intervention. And I mean, this is kind of a gross analogy. So like skip through if you don't want to hear it. But I mean, I compare it to like going number two, you know, pooping. Honestly, if you are in the hospital and they want a fecal sample and the nurse is coming in and saying, you need to go poop right now. We need to get a fecal sample. And they're coming and checking on you. Did you go? Did you go? It's going to be uncomfortable. You're probably going to like maybe even have some pain when you're trying to poop when you're like in a hospital and being forced to do it on their terms. And it can be uncomfortable. And then on the other side of things is like poop is a very normal physiologic thing that we all do at home. But sometimes, but sometimes there are issues. Some people get severely constipated or sometimes people have an extreme diarrheal illness. And like, sometimes people have hematochesia or bleeding out of their poop. Like, but does that mean that every person goes to the hospital every time they need to poop? Because, well, there could be something wrong right now. Just in case. Exactly. Like you don't. But because the rate of, you know, abnormalities, that is so low. And that's the thing. People don't look at the true rates of these morbidities or things that cause mortality because they really are so infrequent. And I, when I talk to colleagues in the medical field, this is a big thing that I do to help change their perspective is say like, yes, when we are delivering, you know, 600 or a thousand babies per year at our hospital, that one in a thousand thing is going to be something that you see every year. So you will see that and it'll be ingrained in your mind, this horrible event that happened when really that is a skewed perspective because you're experiencing that trauma that someone else had of that event. But it really was just one out of that thousand babies that we delivered in that year. Or honestly, a lot of the other, we already kind of touched on this, a lot of the other emergencies that occur are with women who are having inductions for non-medical reasons or reasons they think are medical. A lot of the women are tricked into it. So I don't even hold them as much accountable. They'll be told, well, your baby might be big or your pelvis doesn't look that big. Let's do the 39 week because of that, you know, ARRIVE trial, which, you know, needs so much assessment to be able to show how that's, you know, not a good reason to just induce a 39 weeks, but that's a whole nother podcast. But yeah, so to tell women, like I just had a friend who was given mesoprostol, which does anyone talk about the fact that that is not FDA approved for abduction? There are extreme risks and side effects. And when you end up with emergency C-section or postpartum hemorrhage for mesoprostol, it is because they gave that to you and it is not safe. But you didn't know that because they act like it is, you know, and then they act like the saviors who came in and said, oh, well, good thing you weren't at home because you would have died. Absolutely not. You wouldn't have died because you wouldn't have had the issue in the first place. And so to really get into that perspective and realize that, you know, when this also ties back to the risk versus risk versus benefit, when you're at home, you're taking away the risks of the hospital, which are tremendous. And, you know, the hospital is like the most dangerous place in America. Like, you know, every year a whole airplane full of people die in each hospital, like due to medical error, not due to like, oh, they went in sick and they died. No. Medical error, medical malpractice, medical interventions, they cause morbidity and mortality. And so by giving birth in a hospital, you are risking those things for you and your baby, especially if you're starting out normal and healthy when you go in. And so that's something that you need to take into consideration when you're weighing those options. And that's something that we did. We realized it would have been riskier for me to go into a hospital for my mental health, for my physical health, for my baby's health, than to stay home in the comfort of our environment and with our intimacy, like I said, and give birth that way. Yeah. Wow. This is a powerful, powerful episode. You just gave so many truth bombs again. People are going to have to go back and listen to this again, because it had so many really, really important points that people should know. So thank you so much for sharing that. How can people connect with you? And if they want to work with you or learn more, how can they do that? Well, that'll bring me to the idea of getting care and getting the birth that you want. So right now I am very much on the low work level. So I don't take a ton of clients. I do mostly lactation and breastfeeding medicine at this point. But something that I started doing in 2020, which was when everything had to go virtual, was doing telemedicine. And that was the one benefit I think that came out of that is that people became a lot more comfortable with telemedicine, with virtual visits in general. And so I actually, I started a business called Dr. Doula, because I realized, I was like, I don't want to be cupped in with what people call a doctor, because that, in my mind, has a negative connotation. And so I felt like what I wanted to be was an advocate, a support person, an encourager, an educator. And I, at the time, the only term that I knew to kind of put with that was doula. And so I created this Dr. Doula, you know, moniker to identify what services I kind of provide. And so I did offer some in-person, but then also virtual doula support. And what I defined that as, or what I offered through that was, I did prenatal, essentially, consults where I would help you with what all of your options are during pregnancy, with regards to interventions, with regards to monitoring and testing. And then, as a result of those, what are your options leading up to birth? Like, what is GBS? What are the cervical checks? What is the glucose test? What are these various things and what options do I have surrounding them? And then preparing for birth, because, again, I went into my first birth with a birth plan. I thought I knew what my options were, what, you know, what choices I had. But then I realized I didn't know I had to choose between them pushing on my belly or not. That wasn't on the birth plan. I didn't know I had to decide if I had to elect out of getting Pitocin during my birth. And, you know, this is really relevant if you're giving birth in a hospital. That's something I'm passionate about, is helping people to be prepared to get, you know, a good birth if they're in a hospital. But then also, if you're giving birth at home, like, there's other preparation things that you can do with someone like me. So, for women who are listening who want to have a home birth but don't have a provider, depending on what you're comfortable with, I don't always feel like there needs to be a person present if you prepare yourself. And, again, like, I don't think anybody can just blindly go in and have a home birth safely. I do think that you need to hone that mind-body connection, that awareness of your body, and then also learn the red flags of when might I need medical intervention. Just like you as you grow, you know when you're becoming constipated. Like, when are things going wrong? Like, when do I need to seek help? That's the same thing. And so I think there are options for you virtually to find doulas or birth keepers or even midwives who would be willing to work with you, not in person, but to help prepare you to be your own caretaker, to be your own empowerer and to know what's going on during your birth. That is something that I do, and then I also do the postpartum stuff of helping with lactation, helping with expectations, because that's another thing. Our society has such terrible expectations that your baby will only eat every four hours, will sleep, will let you get a whole lot done, and that's just completely abnormal. The expectations are abnormal. Your baby is not abnormal. And so basically, yeah, I like to provide people with education so they can do things themselves. I don't think we should be needing to do things and tell women what they should be doing, but giving you the ability to do it yourself. Because I think every mother and woman in their nine months leading up has the ability to learn these things and intuitively make decisions and understand their body and their baby and make those decisions on their own. Yeah, that's powerful. And I love that more and more people are realizing they have options. Like, there's way more options out there that you don't have to birth lonely. Like, we want our village. We want people surrounding us and helping us. And I think it's wonderful that you can have a wise woman who's been there to walk alongside you, and I love that. So I'll put all of your links and how to connect with you in the show notes below, but thank you again for your time and for coming on here and sharing your wisdom. Thank you so much for having me. I love sharing my birth stories. I love talking to other people about birth in general. It's such a miracle. It really is. And it was very nice to be here, and thanks for listening. I hope you loved today's episode and found it so helpful and encouraging. If you did, would you take 30 seconds to leave a review on the Apple podcast or send this episode to a friend who has been praying for a peaceful home birth? Lastly, make sure you get my free download of my complete home birth essentials checklist. Make sure you have everything ready to go so you're able to feel at peace and confidence leading into your home birth. This printable checklist has all of the important but less glamorous or thought of items that I have found to be so incredibly helpful to have at a home birth after working with many clients in person. Now, get it by clicking the link in the show notes, and as always, thanks for listening and peace be with you.