femisnims

Allison is interviewing someone about growing up in the 60s. They discuss college, the feminist movement, and Catholic school. They also talk about childhood friends and awareness of the feminist movement. The interviewee shares her views on Catholicism and her desire for independence. She mentions getting married later in life and her sisters' perspectives on feminism. Hello? Hi! Hi, Allison, how are you? I'm doing so good, how are you? Well, that sounds wonderful. How much did... Are you loving college? Yes, I am. I am completely loving college so much. Good! How much did my dad tell you about the interview? He just said you were going to interview me about growing up in the 60s. Yeah. I decided I think I want to take, like, focus more on, like, the feminist movement, so that's, I think, where my questions are kind of going to go, if that's okay? Sure. Alright, so my first... I'm going to start with, like, some basic questions. So tell me this, what class is this for? This is for an American culture class. Literally the entire class is about the 60s. Okay. Wow, that's kind of cool. It is really cool. So are you watching film clips and... That's part of it. ...music? That's a lot of it. A lot of it is listening to music. Okay, because, you know, like Bob Dylan, Joan Baez, Stephen Stills, and there's a lot of, you know, Judy Collins. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, go ahead, ask me questions. My first question for you is, tell me where and when you were born and a little about, like, growing up, like, your early life. Okay, I was born in Fenton, Michigan. We lived in Hawley. My dad was mayor. He was also general manager of the G.F. plant in Flint. The closest hospital was Flint. Did I say Flint or Fenton? Fenton. No, Fenton's wrong. It was Flint. Sorry. Okay. So, it was 1954, and so, you know, 1960, I was six years old. Mm-hmm. So, and in that part of my life, we were in rural... It was Hawley, Michigan. It was a village. So, it was small. We went to school. I had to ride the train to school, because the school was in Fenton. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, because we went to Catholic school. Right. And it was only public schools were available in Hawley. Okay. So, in my kindergarten, I was four years old, because being born in October. Yeah. I didn't turn five, but they went ahead and let me start school at four. Wow. Which most people don't get to do that. No. No. So, yeah. So, and then we were there in Hawley until the middle of my sixth grade. Mm-hmm. And then we moved to Dallas, Texas. Oh, wow. Yeah. So, in the middle of sixth grade. And so then, you know, so Hawley was all, you know, my dad was mayor. Mm-hmm. You know, we knew his best friend was the chief of police. He was all involved in the management of the city. Mm-hmm. And, you know, we knew all the neighbors. You know, we had neighbors who, you know, we knew where to get the candy. We knew where to steal the apples. You know, I would get up in the morning and go and fish. You know, when you're a little kid, you don't need a license to fish. Yeah, I would do that. I would fish in the Bush Lake and then bring fish home to my mom and cook up for breakfast. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. I remember. But then when we moved to Dallas, that was an eye-opening thing. We went from being podunk, you know, country bumpkins to being thrown into big city. We moved to Dallas, flew first class. Oh. There was a message. They had a message that was when we were landing in Dallas. It said, Oh, yeah. And I even remember the meal first class. We had poached eggs on corned beef hash, half of a grapefruit with a cherry on top. Wow. Mm-hmm. That was the meal that we were served. And we flew from Detroit to Dallas. And then, you know, my dad built a swimming pool. So, we went from being little country bumpkins to I was thrown into Ursuline Academy. It was a private all-girls school. It was Catholic, girls only. We wore uniforms, like, because all Catholic schools, you wear uniforms. Yeah. It was very, very different because I was going to school with the governor's daughter and the daughters of Hager Slack Company. So, it was all these wealthy kids. Yeah. Wow. Can you describe, like, or can you go into a little bit more detail about what it was like going to, like, Catholic school during that time in, like, Michigan and Texas? Well, you know, it's the nuns are teaching you. There are lay teachers, which are not nuns, but it's pretty. You're learning religion is a big part of what you're being taught, but it's also college preparatory education. So, you know, most people can go straight from Catholic school to college without, you know, a lot of trouble because of the kind of quality of education that you're getting. Yeah. But, you know, if you're Catholic, you have to go to church every day. Did you like it? Did I like it? Yeah. I always wanted to be an altar boy. Oh! So, I was probably one of the first feminists in my family in that I wanted to be an altar boy, and I couldn't be one because I was girl and girls weren't allowed to be altar boys. Yeah. Now you can be one, but I was just born in a wrong age. Yeah. So, I kind of know I didn't like it because I was told I couldn't be one, and I was like, okay, well, if I can't be an altar boy, then this religion is not for me. Wow! Okay. So, I kind of fought my mom on that, and it wasn't great. Yeah. But, you know, that was my thing. I kind of feel like Catholicism is run by men. Yeah. Look at the Vatican. Yeah. And, you know, like, I'm probably not the best one to talk about it, you know, because my family is very religious, but not me because I feel like it's controlling, and it's not arms open. Like, my mom was great, but not all Catholics are. Yeah. A lot of them are very judgmental. Yeah. You know, they don't accept all people always, even though Jesus did. Yeah. And I feel like they adjust the education of, particularly the women, but all people, in that the men are telling you what to do and how to be, and, you know. Yeah. They tell you to, you can't practice birth control, that you need to submit to your husband, and you need to have his babies, and, you know, it's against the rules to use birth control. Yeah. These are all things that they teach, which I think is really wrong and irresponsible in an overpopulated world, and people can't feed their families. Yeah. They're going after the uneducated people of the world and telling them that this is how they should be, and it's wrong. Fascinating. Their families can't, they can't raise the children. No, you're so right. Yeah, so that's, you know, I mean, in a nutshell, you're getting my position on it, which is not the best, and my family would not agree with me, but that's where I stand. Oh, I respect that. I question. Solid. I feel like they're professionally irresponsible to tell people not to practice birth control and just have babies. Yeah. Because the Catholics want numbers they don't care about. Plus, they have a vow of poverty, but I see no poverty in their vows. They're living in mansions, and they have huge wealth and exorbitant buildings, and if you look at the history of all the churches everywhere, they're like the most elaborate buildings in town. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Where's that vow of poverty? Such a good point. Okay. My next question is, can you tell me about some of your closest childhood friends? Like, maybe the first time you met them, who they were, that kind of thing? Well, probably the closest childhood friend in Holly would have been my brothers and sisters, my parents' closest friends, and their children, and of course, the cousins, because we saw the cousins all the time, and then there were the neighbors that were close by. So, it started there. Then, when we moved to Dallas, it was neighborhood kids, but a lot of them were kids who went to the same church we did. And so, that's usually... Or the closest neighbors. Yeah. So, them. And then, probably people at school. So, one of my first best friends was a black girl, because she went to my school, and that's what I remember. Or the neighbors. Okay. Now, I'm going to kind of move into the more feminist questions, like directly feminist. Okay. Okay. My first question for you is, what were your... Did you have any idea... Like, how aware of you that there was a feminist movement happening in the 60s? Like, what were your perceptions of it? Well, I was in grade school, so... I mean, we were aware of it, just because of the music, you know, and the news, but also living in a city, which we did. We lived in Dallas, Texas. So, you know, women were... I mean, nobody was burning their bras. Yeah. Even though there were women doing that. I mean, but we were promoted to be individual thinking, independent, you know, educated. I mean, we weren't really raised to get married and have babies. I don't feel that way. Yeah. You know, it wasn't anything that I ever wanted to do. Like, I always wanted to be no children and not married. Yeah. So, you know, I wanted to just work and have my own life. Yeah. Even though I did end up getting married, but I was 50 when I did it. Oh. So, yeah. I... Yeah. And I'm Paul's second marriage, so, yeah. And I married kids. He had two kids. Wait. How did I not know that? Yeah. They're not my kids. Yeah. But you probably haven't met his kids. Yeah. I don't think I have. But they're grown up. They're 40 and... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But, yeah. So, did I answer the question? I don't know if I answered the question. Oh, absolutely. How aware was I? Uh, I mean, you're aware just because of the news. Yeah, but you weren't, like, actively involved because, you know, you're on the other side. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just a teenager. Right. You know, barely a teenager. Yeah. Really pre-teen. Okay. And going into teens. Yeah. But I had older sisters. That's true. And they were reading all the magazines, following all the fashion. Mm-hmm. They kept me abreast of that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think your sisters, like, the older ones would have considered themselves feminists or, like, how, like, involved or where were they? Like, was it kind of like... Um, Mary went to nursing school, so she was a nurse. Wow. Um, I would say she grew up the classic get married and have babies. Mm-hmm. And I think Ann did as well. Even though they never... Well, Mary did work in her career. Ann never did. She got married and was a mom. Yeah. So, I would say not so much. Yeah. But partially, I would blame that on being Catholic. Yeah. Because you're raised to be submissive to the man. Yeah. And to... So, that's the thing about being Catholic, is, you know, you're raised to be submissive. Yeah. Listen to the husband, to follow the church, and submit to their doctrine. And I bucked it all the way. Okay. Um, next, how would you describe, like, your perceptions of, like, representations of women in popular culture? Like, do you have any women that stood out to you that were, like... What am I trying to ask? I think I'm trying to ask, who were, like, your icons at the time? Like, the people, like, the celebrities you really, like, followed or... Uh, okay. Well, that's... That's kind of funny. Because, uh, Janis Joplin. Oh. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, but Jackie Onassis. Very classy, but also very independent in raising her children to be independent. Mm-hmm. But also, even though her husband was the president, she still managed with quiet dignity and grace and had her own voice. Mm-hmm. Um, let's see. Who else? Um, at that time, I mean, a lot were, you know, rock and roll people. Yeah. Or folk people. Um, Judy Collins. Um, I don't know. So, what kind of music did you listen to mostly? Well, rock and roll. Rock and roll. The Beatles. I mean, you know, you start with the Beatles and you just move on. You know, Bob Dylan. Um, still, Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young. Yeah. Clearwater Roots. I mean, on and on. Um, ABBA. Of course. But, uh, I don't know. It's a full gamut of people. Yeah. Because there's just so much going on. Sure. You know, there's also, you also had Jane Fonda. Right. Who was being unpopular because she was, you know, against the war and people felt that she was anti-American when in fact she was just for the earth and for independence and, you know, misunderstood. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, did you notice any changes in the portrayal of women in the media, like, before and during the 60s? Like, any, like, changes that, like, you specifically saw or noticed? Well, the thing about it, even in the 60s, women still did not have a voice, even though they tried to have a voice. Yeah. And were starting to have a voice and starting to burn bras and starting to do things, becoming aware of their sexuality, their ability to birth control. Things of that nature. But they still, even if they got divorced, you couldn't, I don't think they could actually hold a loan. Oh. You still had to have a man on your lawn. Oh. So, yeah. So, I mean, it took forever for women to get to finally be able to buy property, own property. I mean, I suppose if your husband died, it would go into your name, but the bank would still be questioning it. Yeah. Like, you probably have to have someone on the note with you. Yeah. So, there was a lot of that going on. It's shocking how long it took for women to finally be able to compete in the business world, even though there were some who were doing it. Like, Paul was mentioning his mom had started a newspaper. Wow. But she couldn't get a loan without her husband on the note, even though it was her business and her idea. Wow. Yeah. So, there were things of that nature going on, and it took a really long time for women to finally have a voice and be respected. And we came a long, long ways, and I feel like Trump and the resurpasses dropped us back a long, long ways. Yeah. You know, a little bit. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, which is really sad. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, and it's scary to see how the world is, you know, so split right now. I agree with you. You can't accomplish anything. Yeah. Okay. But I've seen things around, coming around the Internet recently. You'll probably appreciate this. They talk about, okay, we've let the men run the world, and they're not doing a very good job. It's so true. You know what I'm saying? Absolutely. Okay. So, let me ask you. So, I kind of asked about, like, role models or, like, icons you looked up to. Are there any, like, role models you had, like, people you actually knew that you, like, looked up to growing up? Well, I mean, you always looked at your aunts and your uncles, your grandparents. I always admired my mother. Beyond that, I don't know. I don't know how aware I was of things because I was such a kid. Right. You know? Okay. Then, can you think of any, like, films, TV shows, books, or music that influenced your, like, idea of womanhood or, like, what it meant to be a woman or, like, a girl, I guess? Well, there's a lot of books that I really didn't get into reading until I was older. Okay. Because, you know, it was all I didn't really I had a school teacher that locked me in the closet, tied me to my chair, and that was my reading teacher. Oh, my God. I couldn't read for a really long time. Oh, my God. Yeah. That's insane. Catholic school. Just so you know. Wow. Oh, yeah. Abuse. They abuse you. Yeah. Oh, my God. Okay. That's awful. Kind of crazy. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. So, we can, like, we don't have to, like, specifically only stay in the 60s if you want to, like, talk about, like, as you got older. You know, there's so many wonderful books that I've read. Yeah. Yeah. Let me think. I have so many favorites. You know, and I can't even think of one. That's okay. I kind of put you on the spot. Yeah. Well, you know, I admired Michelle Obama. Okay. You know, I thought that Obamas were quite dignity and grace in a world where people had no appreciation, and I think they were very elegant and managed to do a lot of things with a lot of opposition and still do it with success. It's really hard to be in the spotlight and not have people criticize you every step of the way. Oh, yeah. And that's a hard thing to do for all the people. And, let's see, Tina Turner, I admire her for surviving in her world. She was abused, and yet she came out of it stronger and beautiful and managed to do well and succeed. Let's see. Who else? Elizabeth Taylor. Yeah. Elizabeth Child, and she did well and supported people along the way. Yeah. You know, she had a big impact. Betty White, I really liked her. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Who doesn't like Betty White? Yeah. Carol Burnett, very, very cool lady. There's so many people. Okay. My last question that I have is just, like, your opinion on how you think feminism has evolved into today and kind of, like, comparing how it was in, like, the 60s and 70s. Well, in the 60s and 70s, it was almost experimental, shall we say, but everything has to start somewhere. It's kind of like the, you know, civil rights movement. You try, you push and you push to get your rights, and eventually, we're finally doing it. We're finally getting there, but there's still a long ways. It's very hard for a single mom to live in the world today and try and raise her children. You know, we talk about equality in the workplace. Well, men aren't really raising the children like the women are, and doing all the housework and everything, and some men are. Some men help, but they're not raised to do that. Yeah. And the women who end up with husbands who are helpful, it's, like, almost a miracle, because they're not raised to be like that. Yeah. And so, there's that. How are we doing? Are we doing well? I think not well enough. We have a long ways to go. The fact that in our legislature, they're talking about women's bodies and what we can and cannot do with Oh, yeah. That does not belong in the law. Oh, yeah. Any more than... If it is, then we get to talk about the men's prostates as well, and we can tell them where they can put them. Yeah. You know? Seriously. I mean, why on earth is that even out there? And that blame on religion. Yeah. The right-wing religious is part of the problem. We need the separation of church and state. Oh, for sure. But, you know, until we don't talk about women and what they can do with their bodies in our legislatures, we have a long ways to go. I agree. Okay. I mean, it's just sinful. Yeah. In my opinion. Yeah. It shocks me that we even have to talk about it. Yeah. And get out of people's bedrooms for fuck's sake. You know? Why do we care? That's a good question. Why do we care? Like, there's some serious... There's something wrong with them. Yeah. That it's such a focus. Like, if we paid half as much attention to things that matter, we would be in a much better place. Oh, I so agree. Yeah. All right. Well, that is pretty much all the questions I had for you. Okay. I hope I helped. I'm not sure. Oh, you helped so much. Thank you. This is so good. All right. Well, I'm happy to hear that. Absolutely. No, I'm happy to do it, and I'm so happy that you're having such a good time and doing so well. Thank you. I love seeing all the pictures, and I'm glad your dad gets to see you as often as he does. I am also really grateful. I did not think I was going to be able to. How's your grandma doing? She's doing as well as you could imagine. She's a hoot. She is, isn't she? Oh, God. 82? Oh, gosh. Yeah. She's up there. She's up there in it. She is, but is she still... Is she remembering stuff, or is she not? She remembers, like, the important stuff. She hasn't gotten to the point where she doesn't, like, recognize people yet, but she is kind of getting very, like, loosey-goosey with her memory a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to watch. It is. Yeah. Not fun. But I'm sure she loves seeing you. Oh, for sure. When you get to Syria. That's so nice. Oh, she absolutely loves coming to the games. Oh, I bet she does. Well, she has such a history there. Yeah, yeah. It's really funny to watch that. I'm sure that helps her, too. Oh, I have to imagine it does. Yeah. So, what was funny? Oh, just, like, how excited she gets when she sees, like... Oh, like, she's like a little kid. No, literally. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. It's cute. It's infectious, isn't it? Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, that's awesome. All right. Well, good luck with your paper. Thank you. You'll have to let me know how you do. I hope I do well. I will let you know. Yeah. I hope I do well. Well, I love you, dear. Thank you for calling. I love you. Thank you for doing the interview. Absolutely. All right. You have a good rest of your weekend. Don't work too hard. Have fun. I will. All right. Love you. Bye-bye. Love you. Bye-bye. Success. Yay. That was so fascinating. What was the most interesting thing there? Just, okay, so she grew up Catholic, right? And I was asking about, like, her experience with feminism, so, like, it was just fucking fascinating.