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The Book Breakfast Podcast discusses the book "There, There" by Tommy Orange, which follows 12 main characters who are connected through past relationships and the upcoming powwow in Oakland. The book explores themes of gang violence, family dynamics, alcoholism, and racism. The characters face oppression and struggle to connect with their Native American culture due to historical trauma and genocide. The book also touches on the Alcatraz occupation and institutional racism. Overall, it highlights the effects of oppression and the need for cultural connection and understanding. Hello! Welcome to the Book Breakfast Podcast. I'm Allen and this is Sol. And today we are going to be talking about the book There, There by Tommy Orange. Yes, a wonderful book with 12 main characters. Can you believe that Sol? Yes, because I also read the book. Ah, good job. Anyway, so according to the Oxford Dictionary, a powwow is a North American Indian ceremony involving feasting, singing and dancing. And so in the book, the characters just basically get together to do these activities in Oakland. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So here's our quick summary of the book. So the book is basically about these 12 characters who are eventually going to come together at the powwow in Oakland. And they're all sort of connected in some ways like through like past siblings or past relationships. I mean, just like even through the powwow, you know, they're all Native Americans. Yes, yes. So yeah, there's a few groups of people, you know, Calvin, Tony, Octavio, Daniel, and two people named Charlos. Yeah, like collectively. Carlos and Charlie. Charlos. Charlos. They're collectively Charlos. And they're sort of a gang and they decide to rob the powwow because Calvin owes Octavio drug money. Yeah, yeah. This book is not for the faint of heart. And yeah, there are a lot of elements of gang violence, which is very concerning because it's like they're kind of like hurting themselves at this point. We'll get to that. We'll get to that. Okay, right. That's at the end. Next, there's this sort of family dynamic where basically there's this guy named Harvey and he raped Jackie. Jackie Redfeather, yeah. And Jackie Redfeather has this half-sister named Opal Viola Victoria Bear Shield. I believe that's her name. Viola. Okay, whatever. Jackie had given up her daughter for adoption. And this daughter turned out to be blue. She's not blue, blue as in like her skin is blue. Her name is Crystal, but everybody calls her blue because that was her Native American name. Okay, so yeah, Jackie gave up her daughter from the experience and her daughter's name, Blue. And Jackie then went on to have another daughter who became a drug addict, but that daughter had three children, Orville, Lonnie. I think it's Lonnie and Luther. It's a little confusing because it's spelled like Lonnie. Yeah, but the book made it very clear that it's not pronounced that way. It's not Lonnie like the pony. Yeah, and because their mother is a drug addict, Opal cares for them instead. Yes, and sadly the mother also died. And also, by the way, Jackie is one of the alcoholics in the story. Another one of those alcoholics is a guy named Thomas Frank. Thomas Frank. And he lost his job due to his alcoholism, but he is introduced in the book as this guy who's going to play the drums at the powwow, so he's a performer. Yeah, and he's just, this guy just really needs to deserve a break. A lot of these characters deserve a break, but they're surrounding society. It's not letting them rest. Right, and there's another guy named Edwin Black. He is obese, and he started the book unemployed, but eventually he did find a job with the powwow committee, so he is connected to this story. Yeah, and also he's going to the powwow in order to meet his father, Harvey. Just another one of the ways that everybody is connected. Oh yeah, Harvey was an absent father in multiple cases. Well, yeah, because he didn't really know that he had children, and why would they tell him, you know what I mean? Why would they want him around his children? I mean, he's a rapist. He's not a good guy. Yes. At all. So, there's this, Edwin's mother has a boyfriend named Bill, and he works as a, I believe he's a janitor? Yes, but he says, they make him say custodian now. Yeah, I don't know, I don't really see the difference, to be honest, like custodian or janitor. They're doing the same job, they're cleaning stuff up. Yeah, just cleaning stuff up. So, next is the problem, or what's the problem? I mean, the main problem in this book is racism. Yeah. Systematic oppression against Native Americans. Institutional. Yeah, this is an institutional thing. I feel like it's more, you know, from historic institutions, because the effects have kind of trickled down into modern day and screwed up these people's lives. Also due to historical trauma. A lot of it. The book mentions in the prologue and interlude about specific moments where these horrible cruelties were made against the Native American communities at the time. It's just like murder. Yeah, it talks about the genocide of Native Americans, essentially. Yeah. But even within the book, it mentions that Blue, she was given up for adoption, and so she didn't know that she was Native American, and other people didn't know that she was Native American. So instead, they called her Mexican Slurs. Yes. Wait, no, she does know she's Native American. At the time, no, because when she was growing up. Oh, yeah, she didn't really know who she was, but later she learns that her mother's name is Jackie Redfeather, and that she's Native American. Yeah, but that still doesn't remove the fact that she was literally called Slurs. Yes, yes. Very racist. And this was very much a white neighborhood, a low to do white neighborhood, where everybody thought they can just say whatever they want. Yeah, I'll cut this out. Also, in the book, there are many statements made about how people in the book often don't see the characters in this book as Native Americans, because they are, quote-unquote, extinct. Yeah, and there's also a couple instances of characters feeling very removed from their culture, due to the mass genocide of their people. So they don't really have much to connect to, I think, is what they feel. Yes, and one of the characters, Opal Viola, she wants to share her culture with her grandnephews, but she really just has a half a time, because she's working so hard as a post-person. Oh, yeah, she's a post-woman. Post-woman, yes. She's the one taking care of them, so she has to make ends meet, and it puts them in a very difficult situation. The boys don't really have a parental figure that's available all the time. Which, I think, leads to them trying to figure it out themselves. Which is what Orville does. He learns how to dance, and powwow, and he wants to be connected to his culture. But I feel like other people are making fun of him for it, like his brothers. He has this notion that his brothers aren't really supportive of that, and they would tease him for it. Like there's something wrong with him trying to connect to his culture. But they say it's weird, man. It's like, what are you doing? Also, I believe, I forgot about Dean. Oh, right, Dean Oxen. One of the starters of the book. Dean is a documentator. Dean basically, he inherited a film project from his uncle, who died. The project is to document the experiences of modern Native Americans. Yes, in the city. Because the old story about, oh, they were all killed, has been told a lot. He wanted the new perspective, is basically what he's trying to do. Yes, about how they're still alive, and they're still living in these cities. Because of this, he did this interview with, was it Calvin? No, okay. He tries to do interviews with almost everyone at the powwow, but I think the only one I remember is Orville. He did interview other people. Yes, he did. I think, yeah, with Calvin. One of the other characters said that he felt very disconnected from his culture, so he didn't really feel, I guess, comfortable saying that he is Native American, because he doesn't feel Native American enough. That makes sense. What is culture without learning from other people in your family, and your own community? Right, but at the same time, I feel like it shouldn't be gate-kept, you know? So, overall, I think most of this is just caused by oppression in the past, you know, that mass genocide from the colonizers. Which brings us to oppressive action. I personally see institutional, interpersonal, and internal racism in this book. Please explain. Okay. So, institutional, there's a lot of moments talking about how the government just wanted to get rid of all Native Americans, wanted them to just assimilate and forget their culture. Oh, and they also talk about the Alcatraz occupation, which I learned a bit more about. It's actually very interesting. You see, one day, there were these Native American activists on this boat, right? Riding past Alcatraz, and so they jumped off of the boat and swam to Alcatraz, and say that the land is theirs now, because they discovered it. And they wanted to create their own Native American nation, where everybody could be together and not be exploited by the government. All right, so where does the prison come in, in all of this? Oh, right, yes. The prison. One character, Bill, he went to prison, and... Alcatraz? What? Because Alcatraz is a prison. No, no, no, no. Yes, Alcatraz is a prison, but not at the time of the book. It was shut down. Is that relevant? I don't think it's relevant. Okay, well, anyways, sorry. Continue your segment about Bill. It's okay, it's okay. We should be open to... Don't want to know. Sorry. So, Bill, he went to jail for many years, and he read many books, one of which is a book that I've read, could not shut up about, Months Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, by Ken Cassidy, not with Ken Cassidy. It is a disturbing book. And the narrator is Native American, actually half-Native American. And everybody calls him Keith Bromden, or Keith Broom, because he always has a broom. But that's a whole other podcast, so we can't even get into today. Why is the book relevant? Oh, okay, sorry, sorry, sorry. I just really like this book. It's okay, it's okay, we can talk about this. I love this book, okay? It's amazing, it's horrifying, and yes, we are getting there, if you let me get through my love of this book. So, the point is that the book is about a Native American man. It's his story, he's the narrator. But in the movie, he's pretty much cut out of it, and the narrator becomes the white guy, the white hero, who just comes in, and he's kind of a jerk, not the best of guys. So it's like, why would they change the entire movie? It feels kind of poetic. It feels like a representation of what actually happens in real life. Yeah, and Bill says that made him really mad, and he really hates the movie now. Even though, I think it won an Oscar or something. Awards are a joke sometimes. Yeah. So, we've talked about all these characters, and we've kind of touched on their individual conflicts. Where does this all come to a point? The powwow, but specifically the shooting at the powwow that occurs due to the gang violence. Right, because if you remember, there was a group of characters who were basically a gang, and they were planning to rob the powwow. Their means of doing so was that one of them got their hands on a 3D printer, and they printed plastic guns, and then they got bullets from Walmart, and they snuck them in past security. Yes. They successfully shot up the powwow, but that scene is really interesting to me, because the gang seems to... the members seem to turn on each other in the heat of the moment. They did successfully get the money that they were after, but then it feels like some of them got greedy, and they started demanding the money. Yes, specifically Charlie and Carlos. That was kind of alluded to, I think, a little bit before, where we see Carlos, which I'm just going to use to describe both of them, because they're basically the same person. The book says that. Yes, the book says that. So, Carlos, they were really, really angry at Octavio. They felt like he didn't respect them, or point for Octavio, but point the guns at them. I'm not surprised that they wanted to get out. They ended up pointing guns at each other, and then they did actually shred each other with bullets. But in the process, they also shot a lot of innocent bystanders. Yes, there were some stray bullets. I believe that almost everyone in the gang died, except for Daniel, because Octavio told Daniel to stay behind. Yes. So Daniel instead used a drone to watch the whole thing, just to make sure that it went okay. Yes. And it did not. It did not. It did not go okay. So I believe Octavio died, Carlos died, Calvin was shot as well? Calvin died, yes. Calvin died. And Tony was also dead by the end of the story. Yes, it's an interesting twist. They were successful, but then they kind of just threw that away. They turned on each other. Do you think that's symbolic of anything? I think so, because there is a history of Native American tribes turning on each other when they couldn't unify and take on the colonizers as one. Some of the only successful rebellions of Native American tribes is when they're unified, specifically I think it was called the Iroquois Confederacy, where they just got everybody together and it worked. Right. But because they turned on each other like this, it didn't go very well, is what you're saying? Yes. Okay. And also in the crossfire, a lot of innocent people get hurt. Yes. So Edwin got shot, and so did Orville. Dean almost got shot, but because he had this recording booth set up, the poles saved his life. The bullet got lodged in it, so it varied narrowly. He got away with his life. Presumably he survived. However, Edwin and Orville were shot, so there is a moment where they're driven to the hospital, and so they're hospitalized. By the end of the book, there's no confirmation if they're alive or not. No confirmation. It just says that if they die, then Opal and everyone else, they're just going to be so heartbroken that they will probably die too. It really just puts it 50-50, either they're going to survive or not. The end of the book is kind of, I guess, funny, but in a really bitter way, because the people who are present at the hospital waiting for their loved ones are Jackie, Opal, Orville's brothers, Lonnie, and Luther. Harvey's there, and Blue is also there. They don't know that they're related. They do not. In the book, it's never discovered that Blue and Jackie finally reunite, and it's never discovered that Blue and Edwin are technically half-siblings. Half-siblings. Yeah, and it's never known that Harvey is their father. Edwin and Harvey did get to meet, but Blue does not know that Harvey is her father. Yeah, there's no specific reunion that I guess we were all hoping for in the end. But in my opinion, by leaving the story on a cliffhanger, it is kind of a metaphor for how Native Americans don't get happy endings, which is how much the system has been stacked against them. Yeah, for sure. There isn't much action shown after the shooting about healing, unless you count the literal healing in the hospital. There's nothing to help with the mental trauma. They've all just gone through this experience, and the book leaves them that way. I think it's kind of metaphoric. They've got to pick up the pieces. They've got to do with what they've got, because there are things that happen to them that are out of their control, and the only thing they can do is their best. Okay, with that, I think we can move on to, what does this story tell us about ourselves? Okay, so what does this story tell us about ourselves? Well, I think that this story teaches the readers about pain and imperfection, really, because it completely gets rid of the usual story arc of Native Americans being saved by a white hero and everything ending up perfect. That's just fake and not true for them. That feels like propaganda. It feels propaganda-y. That sort of story definitely serves to uplift white people and then cast Native Americans as victims and nothing more. Yeah, it's like unable to help themselves, basically. Yeah. But it's also telling us the truth, though, that there is no good story when it comes to colonization. But it also teaches us about family, because in the book, the family members have stayed away from each other, and throughout the book, all we want is to see them be together and happy. But when this all happens, a shooting takes place, and all their happiness is taken away. Yeah, they never get that opportunity, I guess, to be happy as a family. I mean, from the very beginning, though, with Harvey literally raping Jackie, it's never been a happy story. Even with Jackie and Opal, before Harvey happened, their mother had them running around from place to place. They never had consistency as children. Something about their father being both abusive and the mother then dying of cancer, which is just, this book is so sad. I feel like that's the only way you could write a book. From the very beginning, that family has just gone through some tragic things. A lot of tragic things. I guess they've kind of had a path of sadness, and that continues. No white man is going to save them from this. Yeah, but I guess my question is, what are we supposed to take away from this? How are we supposed to use the moral of the story for our own lives? The moral, basically, is that life is unfair. Which isn't very much a moral. I mean, I feel like this book is all about exposing the system, kind of, because it's definitely screwed them all over. None of them get a happy ending. That's shown in the book, at least. The Big Takeaway I guess the big takeaway for me is that we should take steps to try and fix the broken system, because it's not going to function this way for everyone. It's not going to be good. One more thing about Alcatraz occupation, which I think actually is a pretty good analogy for this story, because the only reason that it ended was because the leader's daughter fell down these stairs and got killed. That tragedy is what stopped their movement. Oh. Yeah. So it's like family tragedies. Yes, it's all about family. I believe that this story also kind of talks about how the future is never certain, because with the shooting, it's not a good action. But they had a plan. They had a plan of attack, if you will. If you will, yes. And it all just went wrong because Charlos didn't cooperate. They decided to not cooperate. And once a little thing goes wrong, everything else can go wrong. Isn't there that one principle where everything that can go wrong will go wrong? Yes, Milo Murphy's Law, which is a really great book. Yeah, Murphy's Law. Murphy's Law. Yeah. Anything that can go wrong will go wrong, not to be confused with Ockham's Razor, which is if it's possible, it did happen. Okay. And the moral I took away from this story is that all we really have is family. Because the family dynamic we saw. Oh, it's awful, yeah. Yeah, it's awful. But it kind of just made me appreciate my own family more. I mean, I guess the section with Orville, Lonnie, and Luther, and Opal, they were kind of healthy. And with that, that concludes the Book Breakfast Podcast. Thank you for joining us. This has been Sol and Alan. And we'll catch you next week. Or never. This is not a recurring podcast. This is a one-time thing. Thank you. Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye.
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