Let's Talk Feminism

The hosts and guest discuss their perceptions of feminism and whether they identify as feminists. They touch on the idea that some men feel unwelcome in the movement and are afraid of being labeled as feminists. They also discuss the issue of certain feminist groups being exclusive and not embracing intersectionality. The hosts debate whether men can fully understand the struggles of women and whether they can be considered allies or actual feminists. The conversation ends with a discussion about the need for equality for both genders. Welcome to Let's Talk Feminism. I'm your host Ryan. And I'm your host Alicia, guest starring DJ R. Mills. Hi. So today we're going to be talking about a very general basis of feminism and exploring different ideas and opinions specifically with men. So I guess we'll just start it off with something very simple. What is your male perception on feminism? What does feminism mean to you? To me, feminism as a term means like the equality of all genders. Yeah, I would say it goes beyond just women. It also goes for transgender people, people in you know the LGBTQIA, the non-binary. So just women identifying? Just equality. Just equality, okay. Okay. All right. Spit it. Resume. Would you guys call yourself a feminist? Just give this guy regular water here. So I guess my starting question for you guys is how do you feel about other people calling themselves feminists? And would you guys consider yourselves feminists? I wouldn't consider myself a feminist. And I think that other people can call themselves whatever they want. I would say I am a feminist. But the thing is, a lot of times it's hard to say you're a feminist and you're a man. And I get where DJ is coming from. Because there are a lot of feminists out there that, you know, it's a female issue. Men can't have their opinions in it. They can't have their say in it. And it's very unwelcoming sometimes. And also there's a patriarchy. Like there's a lot of guys that really don't like male feminists. Yeah, I think that guys not liking male feminists is the main reason why I don't label myself as a feminist. Because labeling yourself is sort of like, it gives people preconceived notions about you that I don't want to be a part of. Okay, okay. So wouldn't you say that that's almost like, I guess, what can we do better to that? How can we make the community or the, I guess, the movement more welcoming for men to want to be able to call themselves feminists? And is this an issue that we can even fix? Or is this something that has been, like, so stuck into our societal expectations or, I guess, norms that it'll never be able to change into something that almost everyone feels comfortable allying themselves with? So your statement was, or your question was, do you think that men would ever feel comfortable labeling themselves as a feminist? And what we have to change for that to happen? So going off of that, I think that, as of right now, no. I don't think men will ever ever feel comfortable labeling themselves as a feminist. I think that the change that feminism brings, men are accepting of and want to move it forward. And I know I'm kind of speaking for all men here, which I'm not trying to, but I think, in general, the main problem with the label is that in order to create the change, you have to be controversial and taboo. And you have to be, like, protesting and stuff. And I don't think that that's something that a lot of people want to get involved with. Yeah. Especially men. It's fair. Because they're seen as, you know, like, radicals. Yeah. I think that passive feminists is what I would call them, and I don't think that they would label themselves as an active feminist. So I guess you could create that label for passive feminists. Yeah. Like, I would be a passive feminist, where I support the movement, but I don't want to label myself as it for the societal impact that it could potentially have on me. But what is the issue with saying that you, I guess I don't understand why you wouldn't want to call yourself feminist, if that is what you believe. Like, I guess morally, I think the thing is, are you just not into labels? Is it just a label thing? Yes, it's just a label thing. I'm not into being labeled as something that I don't... Others perceive as negative? Yeah, others perceive. So if there's a misconception with a label, like, if a lot of men don't believe that feminism is what it is, then there's a misconception with the label. And I don't want to put a label that's more often than not, a misconception on myself. Because, like, I know that feminism stands for equality. But a lot of people don't think that. They think it's about putting women above men. And I think that I don't want to have that label put on me. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think that is the biggest issue with certain feminist groups, is that they're very targeting, and that they kind of forget the whole equality part. So are you saying that when we think of feminism, I guess, what groups are you talking about? Are you talking about white women who call themselves feminists? Yes, I'm talking about like the classic, like, possibly even like the older, like first wave feminism, like white groups, because they did not, like, historically, they didn't really like the intersectionality. And like, they didn't really care about the black feminists and whatnot. I don't think they I don't think first wave feminism had intersectionality in it. No, it didn't at all. Second wave feminism had intersectionality, correct? Even nowadays, there's still some groups and stuff that kind of don't like intersectionality. And it goes beyond just race, it can also go gender or sexual orientation. So I guess we can go into, I know that we briefly touched on, well, I guess it was not very brief, but we touched on men being feminists. How do you feel about the way that women identifying feminists feel about another man? I guess, supporting the move? Do you think that they feel that it's a woman's fight, and that a man shouldn't be allowed to support that? Or do you think it's just like a person by person basis? Or do you think it's a very, like, stereo, stereotype for? Yeah, I'd say there's two polarities there. I'd say it's very person to person, whether they believe that it is just a woman's fight, or if, you know, they're kind of more on the like, you know, men should also be supporting this side. What do you want? Do you think it's just a woman's fight? Or do you think? I don't think it's just a woman's fight. I think it's more than just I think it's just a human rights fight in general. I think it goes beyond that. Like, it definitely encompasses that. But there's more to it than that. Sure. What do you think, DJ? I think that it's most feminists. Well, I think that the perception that I've gathered is that even though there's feminists that say it's just a woman's fight, and there's feminists that say that men should be in the movement too. But I think that even the ones that say that men should be in the movement too, like the men are referred to as like, allies, they're like, Oh, yeah, they're, they're helping us out with our movement. They're, they're doing so great. I feel like they're more so treated as just, like, not actual feminists, just like, men that want to help out. And I think also, a perception is that outside of the feminist community, even probably a little bit inside of the feminist community, too, is that men become feminists to gain the respect of women and be seen as potential partners to feminist women. I think there is some truth to that. I don't think all male feminists do that. But I think there are some that take advantage of that possibly. I mean, I, I mean, I personally think that you guys could only be allies, because you don't actually understand the struggle of being a woman. Or, yeah, yeah, I think that that's alienating to a lot of men. I think that's how they feel is that that's alienating. So I think that as long as there's that divide, that men will never fully, like, but I don't think that it's a divide, though. I don't think that it's a divide. It's just experience. I think it's very divisive. I think it is. But it's experience-based. You're not going to walk into a workforce, have the same degree experience as another man and get paid less. Or the feeling of being hypersexualized, like you'll never have that, have that going for you, I guess. Or the feeling of not having equal opportunity because you both are white men. Yeah. And you both have privilege. We are the majority. The vast majority. Yeah. In America. So I think it's right to label you guys as allies and not necessarily, because you're not the ones that are being oppressed. Yeah. I think, I don't think I have to be oppressed to be a feminist. Yeah, I don't believe you have to be oppressed to believe that. I don't think you have to be, yeah, I don't think you have to be oppressed to believe something. I don't think you have to have had the experience to be able to put yourself in somebody else's shoes. I wouldn't say feminism is something that you earn as much as it is just an ideology that anyone can have. Yeah, I think it's an ideology. I think it's like a lot of other things. If your morals align closely to feminism, then who is, like, why should somebody say, like, gatekeep you from that ideology? But if you're an ally, you're not gatekeeping that ideology. You're just saying that you can't. Well, we're being put on the sidelines is the issue. But it's not like it's your, I guess, I don't know. I don't know where to go with that from there. Because I think that this is just what I have believed without really deep thought. And so putting, I guess, expressive or deeper thoughts behind it would, I would take a couple of seconds just to gather those. In order for me to label myself as a feminist, I think I would have to, I don't even know what the feminism movement would have to change for me to label myself as a feminist. Because I think the public perception will always be that they're trying to make women or higher up on the societal power structure, I guess. And is that an issue though? Why is that such a problem for you? Well, cause then we'd be going from, we'd be oppressed. Welcome to the gang. I think that, I mean, as far as you want to say is that you can't like men can only be allies, which you said earlier. I think that that's very detrimental because feminism is supposed to be a quality of both genders. And I think that the Barbie movie actually displayed that really well where it wasn't just women's issues. It was also men's issues. Because the patriarchy quite, quite frankly, creates toxic masculinity, which harms men that don't identify with that sort of masculinity that they don't watch like football games every Saturday and drink a beer with their boys that they just like aren't really into that sort of patriarchy that have their own issues. And I think that in the Barbie movie, it really showcased like when, when Ken implemented the patriarchy into Barbie land that it, it really did negatively impact the Barbies. Like it doesn't in the real world negatively impacts women, but it also wasn't ideal for the Ken's either. Why wasn't it ideal for the Ken's? Weren't they just, they were just arguing with each other. That's about it. Like that's their only battle. They weren't being excluded out of things. Well, no, the whole patriarchy of it eventually hurt the Ken's because all the Barbies left. I think that was the narrative that they got sick of it and they like revolted, right? Yeah. It really only caused division in the Barbies. Yeah. Like after they went through their whole toxic masculinity phase, they took back, they were willing to accept the Barbie's leadership again, but with more equal representation. Yeah. So how do we take this idea that you have and change it or not change it, I guess, but represent that in our structures that are, that we see today, I guess in feminism or just in general, because a lot of the dictators of our societal norms or what we believe in or what we stereotype in is influenced by a man's doing. Like it's men still have the power. The only reason why feminism has such a bad label is because men that created a bad label, like what you're talking about when you say, I don't want to be labeled as a feminist because X, Y, and Z, that is not how I feel when I label myself as a feminist. I see that as I want to support all women and I want women to be able to have the same leg up in this world as men do. And you see it as like this, I think you called it, um, it's like radical viewing, I guess. Well, it's not that the ideology of feminism is necessarily radical. It's just that it can be viewed as radical. When you're labeling yourself as a feminist, when I label myself as a feminist, it's different for when you label yourself as a feminist based on societal expectations and norms. But who created those societal expectations and norms? But you're putting the blame once again on the whole gender, which I think is crazy. What do you mean? Like, yes, it is. It is circled within men and like reinforced by men. But I think it's that way because of fear and, uh, fear of losing power in our world. Then what is there to fear? Why can't you give everyone the same opportunity? Because they don't, they don't think that women have a leg down. How, how, how don't women have a leg down? I guess. How could you not see that? Because when you're growing up as a young teenage boy, uh, you often see women as above you. I guess I don't understand that. Well, they have all the power in like in early high school, like dating dynamics and like popularity. Yeah. The, the social hierarchy in, yeah, like he said, early high school and middle school is really intense. It favors women and a very select population of men. But it doesn't favor all women though. It doesn't. It's just, it just favors. Okay. High school and middle school hierarchy just favors whoever is the richest whitest privileged person in the group. Like most popular people that you're talking about all have some sort of privilege. And I mean, they might be white women, but the second that they get out of high school and they're into like out of the drama world, I guess you could say, I don't really like to use the term drama world, but like, I guess it's fine. No, it's just to coin like women with drama was my issue there. But once they get out of that air, I guess, and they're out into the real world, they are now put back at a lower level. These women that you still call popular and have all the power and what the reality of the situation doesn't really matter because it's based on the perception. The label is created based off the fear mongering and perception of women in society. It's not based on their actual role in society. Yeah. Because in early high school men view women as like, uh, they put them on a pedestal as like a trophy. And that's an issue to be obtained. And that is the issue. That's what we're talking about. Exactly. So wait, well, I thought you were talking about how women, we were talking about power structures originally. And then we talked about how they have all the power. You were talking about why men don't want to be labeled as feminists. Uh, and that, that, that label, that negative connotation to the label is created by men. And I said that the reason why it's created by men is because they believe that women and men are already equal in society and that doing more would give women the upper hand, which would then in turn put men down. But how does that relate to your high school slash middle school? I'm saying that's why they, because you asked how men can perceive that women have the upper hand. That's how I think that men get the perception that women already have the upper hand in society. But then the way that you talked about the way that, that they have the upper hand is because they're a trophy and something to be obtained, which is you're just objectifying women at that point. Yes. Well, that's the issue that that social hierarchy and patriarchy in that setting creates, it creates the idea that they're trophies. We're not saying that that's what we believe. Well, no, I'm not saying that. Well, that might be what they believe. Okay. We can cut that off. Um, no, what was I, what was I going with that? Nobody knows the reason. I had no, I had a point of that, of you being like, um, I'm just trying to figure that. Okay. So you're going on all these sidetracks and I keep missing like my main thing that I'm trying to say here. The argument is why do men not want the label of feminism on them? And how men create the false connotation and why they believe this. Okay. So we are, we then we got to the point of like how men don't think that women have men think that women have the upper hand in high school and middle school. And that's why now they don't think that there's an issue. Should we move on? Or did you guys, I think you can probably cut that conversation early at some point. I don't know where we were going with that. Circular argumentation. What we already talked about how men, like the question of whether they can have like opinions on women's rights. We haven't really dived into that one. We didn't dive completely. We didn't talk about abortion. I haven't gotten to argue with Alicia about that one yet. So let's go back into that one. So yeah, where are you? You're also should be arguing this. You guys are very intense. It's hard to get in. We're not intense. You are the opposite, like polarities, like completely. It's fine. It's a good conversation. It's interesting. I'm enjoying it. So I have to ask the question, can men have insight or opinions on like, you know, women's rights, like anything about their body? Like, for example, I mean most popular example, abortion, like can men say anything about that or is that completely like, like just shut up. When it comes to your specific example that you brought up of abortion, I think men absolutely should absolutely should not have a say in the conversation at all. Like absolutely zero, absolutely zero. It's not your body. You're not the one carrying the baby. You don't have to go through the struggles like you don't have it. You literally have no, but okay, what I have to have no words. I want to fight that statement. You cannot have no, you literally have no struggle when it comes to the baby carrying process. The only thing that you might have to deal with is like being there for your partner or like supporting the child later down the line. But when it comes to the actual conceivable of the child and carrying the child, I think that men should not have any say in that. Here is, okay. I have a problem with that. I think like, okay, it takes two people to have a kid. Like you need a male and a female to create a child. And yes, the man, they don't carry the child, but you're, you're disregarding every other process before and after that. There's more, there's more to childbirth than just the care. All right. Cut this bit. All right guys, resume. You have to react to the question cause I don't remember. I don't know what that was cause DJ was like, oh yeah. I'll just start cause you already said all your stuff. Okay. So the issue is if a woman believes like, you know, pro-life or whatever and like the man, the man that impregnated this woman like gets absolutely no say in that. And like the woman is pro-life then that could seriously hinder his life and hinder the child's life. But that's a discussion for the people in the relationship to have. I think when it comes to a governmental decision, I'm saying overall, like not the laws on it. Yeah. Not specifically case to case because I mean personally, but then you think, but then you're saying men should have an opinion on it in like, so you're saying they shouldn't have a say on the law, but they should have a say in their relationships. So like if the law is open and it is up to choice that the men should get a say at some point. Yes. I disagree that men shouldn't have a say in the legalization of or legalization or restriction of abortion because I think what it comes down to is a moral issue and not a, I think the whole argument that it's a, that it's part of a woman's body is kind of like, I think it's kind of mute because I think it's mainly just a question of morals. Like where do, what do we as a society, like how do we value a fetus? And I think that that everybody should be able to have input into that topic. I think that's what abortion should be decided on what society values or fetuses because I think that if we are able to come to a conclusion of the society and agree upon the value of a fetus and if, if it is equal to a human life or if it's equal to a clump of cells like a tumor, then I think that and how far along in the pregnancy of the child has to be before it's valued as a human. I think it's a question completely and only of morals and I think that everyone can have their moral stance and their moral opinion just like assisted suicide and euthanasia. And I think that it's just something that we have to discuss and agree upon as a society, which may never happen, but well, it's not going to happen because you have your religious views put into there and religion is a very, like it's such, it's a very stronghold. It is such a stronghold in a lot of people's lives and no one, I think that's wrong. Religion. Well, I wouldn't say religion overall, but like, but religion influences your decision. Hang on. I think that overall in history, the moral opinion on things have often shown to be which, which option is more beneficial to society. Obviously murder is outlawed because it hurts society. But I think that when it comes to abortion, abortion is beneficial to society because it prevents kids from growing up in like absolutely horrible, uh, home life. It prevents, uh, potential teenage moms from just their lives being ruined. I guess. Yeah. And that moral issue, I think that that would influence society over a long enough period of time to be okay with, to be completely okay with abortion. It's not in the near future for sure, but I think that over time society will find it beneficial to have abortion and will continue to fight for it until the general public opinion is that people are fine with abortion. So I think a man can have just as much empathy for that situation of, you know, like a child in foster care or a child that has a terrible life. A man can have just as much empathy for that as a woman can. That's not experience to experience between genders. That's just an empathy thing. And I think that is one of the biggest parts of the abortion debate. But I look at it more of like a commitment thing because a lot of the times in relationships where there is, let's just use an example of an accidental pregnancy. Men are more likely to leave leaving the woman with the baby. And that's where I don't think that men should have an opinion because they can just leave without the commitment. Really? No, there's a large commitment. It's a, you have to pay child support. Yeah. Unless you can illegally run away, unless you can manage to do that. Yeah. There's definitely big consequences for them. Yeah. But I don't think that a lot of people think about like, for example, when we look at the consequences are still there, the consequences are still there, but they don't, when it comes to the decision making process of whether to have an abortion or to not have one or to legalize it or whatnot, I think that men don't have, again, just that same commitment that women do. And especially because it's a woman's body, like if she does not want to carry a child, but the thing is, is the abortion debate about the mother's experience or the child's experience? Because personally, I think the moral debate, the more important part is the child. Like, does this fetus have, like, can it, can it feel the pain like of an abortion or like, like, is it wrong? If I know, but some people believe that the thing is some people still believe that it's as valuable, like as a grown adult. But back to the issue of not, okay. Not as a pro-life or pro-choice debate, but as a, should men have a say in, like in a woman's rights, I guess, in a woman's bodily rights, as you stated before. Well, you, you keep saying bodily rights. No, I just, I was quoting Ryan. He said, he said in the beginning, woman's bodily rights. And so that's what I was coming back to as like my, cause he was going off into like their rights. So nobody should have a say. I think it's different when we're talking about pregnancy and abortions than maybe certain other bodily rights. Is that what you were going off on about? Or are we just talking about abortion? I guess. And again, I still think when it comes to the legalization of it, I don't believe that men should have a say in it because it's not their body. It's not their pain or experience. Yeah. But what does not matter though? Okay. Let's say hypothetically, if you're not fighting for your right to be in pain, you're fighting for the right to terminate a fetus. No, I'm fighting for the right to have my body. What I want to do. The fetus is in my body. DJ. It's not in your body. If the fetus is in your body, you can have the choice, but the fetus is not in your goddamn body. But you're still not fighting for the fetus, for the rights for the fetus is right to be in your body. I'm fighting for the right to have a choice of whether that fetus can stay in my body or be taken out of my body. Yes. You're, you are fighting to kill the fetus or not kill the fetus. But it's, but I'm fighting for my choice in that I'm fighting for my say to be able to say that or not, I guess, or have something like that. All right, guys, next topic. No, we need to move on from the abortion thing. Well, we can just summarize it. Someone summarize it. Summarize the abortion thing. Summarize that we haven't come to a conclusion. Yeah. We have not come to a conclusion. I guess it's open-ended. And maybe the guys think that they should have a say in it. At least she does not period period. We also had an off, off my conversation about this. So we got fiery. We did conclude it, but we're just, we're going to move on. All right. So should we, did you want to talk about anything? Okay. Actually, no, no. What did you want to say about the wage gap? The wage gap? Yeah. I haven't seen any proof that it's real. What? Okay. Well, no, no, no. Let's humor. Let's humor. Yeah. Let's talk about this. Okay. I've seen, mountains of not mountains, but I've seen a lot of, a lot of credible sources saying that the gender pay gap is closer to women earn. Like 98% of what a guy earns as opposed to 75%, which I think is more accurate. And that the original study that got people so upset about the gender pay gap was not career to career. It was overall because of women go into less profitable careers on average. And I think that inherently is an issue that society kind of is trying to work against with like women in STEM and stuff like that, trying to push them towards these higher careers. Okay. So I have a statistic from a.gov website. Um, and it says that median earnings for women were 83% of a men's earnings. Yes. But that is, that is not including career to like, that's just whatever they work. That's not a male mechanical engineer versus a female mechanical engineer of the same seniority. Correct. I think that the conversation, if there really is a problem, I think that the conversation shouldn't be this random obscure. Yeah. It shouldn't just be that women, there's more to it than that. It's not just that women are just getting paid less. It's that society is telling these women that or has told these women, maybe they shouldn't, you know, pursue these higher careers that that's for a man to do. And that's the issue. Um, I think that if there is an issue because there's already a law addressing it, that women and men have to be paid the same for equal work. That is a law that's already in place in the U S and if there is still an issue with it, but I think we really have to shift the argument to enforcing the law better because if there is an issue, then if there really is an issue with men just on average being paid less for doing the same job, then the law really like people should be advocating for the law to be enforced significantly better than it is. But right now we are advocating for equality of outcome, which I think is very dangerous or not leave with the feminist movement when, when they refer to the gender pay gap. So could you actually give us some background on equality of opportunity versus equality of outcome? Because I know you know a lot about that. Sure thing, buddy. I'll give it the rundown. So equality of opportunity is the idea that the ideal, I do get a lot of ideology, ideology that everybody should have a fair and equal place to start from and whatever they achieve in their life after that is based on the merit and effort that they put in. Equality of outcome is that after they put in the merit and effort, they are substituted for what they are not able to do to get paid fairly or not fairly, but get paid the same as somebody that put in more effort than them, which I don't think is fair personally because I think effort should be rewarded. I agree. What do you think, Alicia? Okay, I'll state my opinion. I think that we do have some sort of pay gap because if there wasn't a pay gap, not everyone would be talking about it and it wouldn't be like an existing conversation. So to say that there's no... Okay, the statistic, like we said, it's not career to career. Is the issue really that employers are paying like, you know, an equal man and woman for the same position, like that they're paying the man more? Or is the issue that these women aren't going into these careers and that men are taught that they need to achieve more or that women are taught that they don't need to achieve as much? Like, I think it's hard for a woman to try and achieve more because you are debunked in the workplace so much. Like, for example, if you were to go to my dad and be like, so-and-so got a raise or so-and-so is working at some sort of high position now, he would be like, I guess it's who you know and who you blow. And that doesn't credit her educational ability at all to be able to do something. What do you mean dad on the podcast is crazy? What? Interesting. Dad lore. Dad lore. But he's said those things to me before and I had to just be like, you're done. I put him on mute. But like, I think that it's harder for a woman to feel that they can achieve high leadership roles again. Yeah, because when they do, those men who also achieved that will downplay them and not consider them an equal. Exactly. Yeah. So I guess then that does kind of go into your point of, is there an actual pay gap or is it a career thing? And to that, I don't know. I think the point, an argument that I've heard against the gender pay gap is if women are really getting paid less for the same job, then companies would only hire women because they're getting the same work for cheaper. Yeah, that's a very good point. That is a good point. So I guess then I, so then I guess it comes to just like the, the issue that I said again is I guess just the struggle bus or the power dynamic of women not being able to, yeah, not being treated well when they actually do achieve when they do succeed. And I guess you can even look at the way that social media talks about women after actresses, like they never actually talk about their skill levels of being able to act or how good they are. It's mainly about their body or like something like that. Instead of actually saying they're a good actor and she deserves to be where she is. Not because she has a really pretty face and a really pretty body, but because she's actually good at what she does. Because you hear that about Tom Hanks, like you'll be like, Oh yeah, Tom Hanks, like the one that he's a really good actor. But the second I say, I don't know, Cindy Sweeney, everyone's like, Oh, she's really hot. Instead of actually crediting her. Okay. That's problematic also that like, I mean that that's immediately what you go to for like a female actress is something like that. Yeah. Like something like Sydney Sweeney. Like you go, you immediately go to the hypersexualization rather than her creditability of being able to get those roles and act in those roles. Yep. That's an issue with the patriarchy that should be addressed and that is hypersexualizing. Okay. I said this once and I'll say it again is I think our main issue is just the consistent hypersexualization of everything. Like in the media, um, women are always objectified and hypersexualized in the workplace. They're objectified and hypersexualized like at school, hyper sexualized and objectified everywhere you go. And that's why women constantly get debunked for things is because we are just used as sex tools or just as like gazes that other people look at instead of like an actual thing, I guess. I mean the patriarchy doesn't look at women as much more than, you know, like, like we've said, trophies and, right. And just sex objects. But I will say, I will say that men sometimes go through that same experience, I guess, of being possible. It is much less often. Yes, it's possible. So I don't, but it shouldn't be like discredited when like say a man speaks up about these things and stuff because it does happen much less, but like it does happen. But when we're talking as a very like general societal statement and not case to case, it is mainly women that don't do this struggle. My question would be, how would you solve the issue of women's sexualization? Honestly, I would start in the media. Like there has to be a way that we can betray women in a way that is in a powerful leadership, confident role without her boobs being out or without some sort of sexual exploitation of her body. But my question is, is it authentic? If, if she is not actually in that leadership role, if she's just portrayed in that, because I think the real problem is that there are no women in leadership roles. I think, I think that's how I get women into leadership roles. Inspire them to why you can't, you can't just give them the leadership roles because they haven't earned it. Then it's, then it's fake. That's why I said, I think you should inspire them and teach them. Less inspiring. If, if a woman looks at the only leader that they have as a fake leader, right? Sure. They have to, they have to, women have to work their way up in society with equality of opportunity and earn the leadership roles in order for that to stop. And I don't think that that is fair to them, but I do think it is how it is. The first place that we can start is the social media representation that we see like, in a lot of movies, when we do see women in a powerful role, they are a movies and also media because there are some like influential social media influencers, I guess that could be considered a powerful woman. Like take Beyonce, for example, we're not using Taylor Swift. Why? She's the most influential woman on the planet right now. Is she? Yes. I was going to say a very powerful leader that I can think of or other, cause I was talking about social, what was I saying? Oh, I was talking about social media influencers and like that is a good place to start. Um, or like movies. And I was going to say that Beyonce is a good example of a leader. Um, like when I think of a powerful woman or other people think of a powerful one, they often think sometimes as the black, the black queen, Beyonce. I think she's the black queen. That's the black queen. Yeah. Queen B. I think of a powerful man. I think of Donald J. And so the way that we could fix these issues is when we do portray media or women, powerful women and media or movies, we give them that power without them being hyper-sexualized or without them going through, I guess, where was I going with that? I guess going through other people, debunking her actual abilities. Because I think when you see, um, people get debunked like that, it makes you not want to chase that because you also don't want to be, I guess, degraded in that way and degraded in your ability. Degraded. Degraded. Don't start me on degradated guys. We can not start a rant about degradated and degradation. Degradation and degration. That is another debate for another day. Which is salt to debate. It is degradation. Degradation. DJ. Cut. Shit. It's not solved. I would hate to edit this. Yeah. This is going to suck. It's going to take a couple of hours. Don't look at me like that. What if we just keep like half of this and where we said cut, that'd be so, what if we just kept everything? Be a questionable podcast. It's the real deal. It's no censorship. The media wants to censor you. The let's talk feminism experience. Raw is trying to censor us. Are we have 10 minutes to eat the ham and sauce? No, we have 10 minutes to get chicken nuggets and then go to him. I need a shower. Guys. Okay. Lock in. Lock in. All right. We have to close this one. Put the market flare. Overall, it is important that we continuously talk about these issues because in order for other people to educate themselves on the topic or for any solutions to be solved, we have to be able to have open and honest discussion. I am your host, Alicia. I'm Ryan. And I'm DJ. And this is Let's Talk Feminism. Bye bye. Thank you. And goodbye.