The Approach S01E01

The transcription is a conversation between two friends discussing the guest's background in sports and outdoor activities. The guest, John Willard, talks about his transition from being a football player to an outdoor guide and instructor. He shares his journey from playing various sports in high school to discovering a passion for climbing after a snowboarding accident. John credits his college experiences, especially with influential mentors, for shaping his career path in outdoor education and guiding. He also reflects on starting his own business and the drive he had since childhood to be an entrepreneur. The conversation showcases the guest's evolution from a sports enthusiast to a successful outdoor professional. All right, we're... Oh man, I was ready to go, dude. Yeah, man, what do you got at your store? Cool thing. Anybody that's listening at the Market Street are terrorists. Yeah, we don't have kids clothing, but yeah, bring your children. Are we good to go? All right. Can I get a thumbs up from Mark? Okay, we're good to go? Cool. What a jerk. All right, everybody. We're here at the Market Street Architecture Store. My name is Jordan. I am the Market Street Ambassador. Today I'm here with Big Daddy, John Willard. John is an NMGA-certified rock guide, ice instructor, and apprentice alpine guide. He has a Bachelor's in Outdoor Education, Leadership, and Tourism from Vermont State University, Linden. He is also the owner and lead guide of Willard Mountain Bikes. Hey, John. Hey, yo. What's up, dude? What's up, brother? Thanks for having me on. Yeah. It's been a while. Has it been a while? It has. Shoot. It definitely has. I think I saw you before you went to the Cascades. Yeah. Were we climbing? I believe so. We were. What did we climb that day? Dude, we rock climb and we don't remember what we climbed. That's cool. That's cool. Anyway, yeah, so basically this podcast is called The Approach, and our vision for that is to kind of just talk to people about how they approach the outdoors, how they are, where they came from, and how we got to where they are today. So, you know, I just write off all these fantastic accolades that you've acquired over the years, but I know you played football, and you're very into football. Yeah. So how did we go from a star football player to an owner of a guide service in New England? Ah, dude, that's such a good question. I mean, I played football from, like, 6 to, like, 15, 16 straight, and then I took a couple years off and I played, like, my senior year. I don't know about star football players. What position did you play? I mean, growing up, you play everything as, like, a kid. But I was mostly running back and safety. I was your top corner. Okay. And then freshman year was, like, cornerback. They moved me around to, like, linebacker. Just all defense? Yeah. I can't remember what I did on offense. I think I was running back on offense, but not, like, starting. No. I also played football. I was a scrawny kid, as I believe you are. So I played safety. Sorry, I played cornerback most of my time. I only played for, like, three or four years. I played freshman year of high school, and then it got way too intense because our team was a little bit intense, you know, 5 a.m. lifting. It wasn't for me. I was a geeky kid in high school. I liked playing video games. This was an Xbox 360 era for youngs out there. Let's go. But, yeah, so, you know, so you played football for most of your time in high school. I did, like, two years. Two years. And it was a lot of trouble not playing football. We could get into that, but we won't for the record. I guess my question is, so you played two years. Did you play any other sports? I mean, I started playing baseball and, like, t-ball through, like, seventh grade. Okay. Once they took the mask away, I was like, dude, no way. I'm not doing this, dude. Man, so you played all the classic American sports. Yeah. I still play basketball, but it's more like pickup now. Yeah. I was so heavy into basketball back in the day. And then I have no idea what happened. I just don't even, like, I don't even watch football. I don't watch basketball. No? Like, my favorite teams are the Cowboys, the Yankees, and the Bulls. Dude, I know. I'm in Boston now, so hot take there. But I grew up in Connecticut, so it makes sense. But, like, you know, those three teams were, like, just so good when I was growing up. And I just kept that. So whenever somebody asks me, I say those three, but I'm not really – I don't really care. No. I'm, like, everything Boston except the Pats. I'm an Eagles fan. I mean, nobody likes the Patriots. Yeah, exactly. Tom Brady really – Boo. Yeah. He really did a number for them. Anyway, moving on from that. Yeah. So how did you get into climbing then? How did you go from that to getting a degree in outdoor education? It all kind of started when I was, like, 13. I got, like, my first snowboard. Nice. And that was kind of, like, my first outdoor sport. Yeah. And from there, I was, like, just kept shredding, kept shredding. And then when I was 17, almost 18, I snapped my femur in half. And I was, like, ooh, okay. Tree? Hit a jump, landed right on my back. Nice. Yeah. And just fully, like, a stick breaking in half. Just, like, pretty gnarly. I mean, Tom – It's on a Christmas ham, and then I had to go get surgery. But then I was, like, maybe, like, snowboarding isn't the, like, full-time gig. Because that was, like, most of my, like, youth was just, like, trying to shred. Yeah. Being outdoors, doing all that. Yeah. I mean, you're 30, right? Yeah. Yeah. I was 35. So, us growing up, we had, like, the – oh, God, who's that guy with the red hair? Sean. Is it Sean White? Sean White. Sean White, yeah. I remember watching him. I'm also a snowboarder. I also have had my run-in with trees and going off jumps and getting massive concussions from hitting it. So, okay, carry on. Yeah. Yeah. Went from snowboarding, and then I was, like, okay, I'm going to graduate, like, high school, do, like, community college, see how this goes. Yeah. And then, actually, Linden – it was Linden State at the time – they sent me, like, a pamphlet. And they sold me because it was, like, they had a terrain park on the campus. No way. Yep. And then there was also the ski resort, like, 10 minutes away. So, I was, like – It's Vermont, so that makes sense. I was, like, dude, this is going to be rad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I went to go sign up for classes. Shout out Ben Merkin. Yeah. I went to go sign up for classes. And Ben – Linden pretty much walked in, and Ben was, like, dude, you look like a climber. And I was, like, all right, dude. And he was, like, I'm signing you up for classes, like, the rock climbing classes, ice climbing classes. Dude, that sounds – You should do this. And I was, like, didn't even – nah, nah, I was just, like, can I swear? Or, like, edit it out? We'll edit that out. All right, I'll say it. I said F it and was, like, all right, like, just put me in those classes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was going to do, like, ski resort management. So, like, anything ski resort related. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then Ben pretty much took me out of all of those classes and said, you're doing outdoor activities. That sounds so much like Ben. Yeah. I had the pleasure of spending a three and a half hour car ride from Massachusetts to North Conway with Ben. And, yeah, I don't remember what we talked about. I actually think we talked about a lot about life. But he just seems like one of those people that will just look at you and be, like, I think you should try this. Yeah. And I think you're going to be good at it. And I'm going to help you be good at it. Exactly. Yeah. And kind of saw the potential, which was pretty cool. Yeah. And, yeah, then I took my first rock climbing class with Kel Rossiter. Nice. Shout out Adventure Spirit guys. Yeah. Now you go out to Europe with him, right? Full circle, huh? Full circle. And now I'm pretty much, yeah, he taught my rock climbing class and my alpine class. Kind of similar to the one you taught at Plymouth. Yeah. Yep. And now even more full circle is, like, I was co-teaching that with Kel. And then now I'm the lead instructor of the alpine class. Oh, you're going to be teaching at Vermont State? Yep. Oh, is that new? Or have you been doing that? I'm an adjunct professor there, or whatever you want to call it, part-time. I guess we're rivals then. I'm also an adjunct, I think, professor or whatever they call it at Plymouth State for the alpine class there as well. So, oh, man. Yeah. All right. Well, now we've got to talk about something else. I'm kidding. That's awesome. Like, I've been in the same area as Kel. I haven't met him, but I've heard nothing but good things about him. You still do. Yeah, yeah. Did he influence you? Like, how big of an influence was he on your guiding career? Definitely a pretty big influence. Like, in terms of ice climbing and alpine climbing, mixed climbing, like, he was always the one that would, like, be like, hey, what are you doing, like, this day? Like, do you want to go climb at the lake? And I'd be, like, so intimidated and be like, yeah, you're leaving it all? I mean, yeah. Was this while you were in college? Yeah. So you went from not knowing anything about rock climbing to basically going to one of the premier steep ice climbing venues on the northeast. Correct, yeah. In a four-year span, a three-year span? Yeah, I started climbing at the lake even, like, my second or third year of ice climbing. That's crazy. But it was all, like, the tablets, like, the easier climbing. The easier, quote, unquote. Yeah. We're doing air quotes here for everyone that's listening at home. We're also not doing a video, so you have to be listening. Better use your imagination. We're actually on the climb. Yeah. All right. So we went from football to Ben Merkin telling you that this is going to be your job from now on. And you started your business three, two, two, three, two, three years ago? October will be the start of year four. Oh, wow. Yeah. Oh, my God. I was so wrong. Kind of insane. That's crazy. October 22 is when I started it. Okay. Yeah. Oh, wow. We're, yeah, dude, I don't even know what time is anymore. Yeah. So what was, like, when did you know you wanted to start your business? I mean, I think growing up I've always been, like, hustling. Yeah. You know, just trying to do whatever to kind of get by. Yeah. And, like, yeah, since a kid I've always been, like, I want to start, like, some sort of business. Yeah. And then it went from, like, snowboarding to then when I found climbing I was like, oh, shit, like, this is it. Like, I want to do this for the rest of my life. Yeah. And so just went all the eggs into the basket. Yeah. How do you, how would you distinguish yourself from some, because I know a lot of guys out there that have that exact same mentality. Mm-hmm. But they don't want to go into business or deal with the minutia and stuff of going into business. Yeah. So, obviously, you know, you didn't start it right out of college. What did you see in your, like, in your training and, like, while you're guiding that you were like, yeah, this is something I think I can handle? Other than the motivation. That's such a good question. That is such a good question. Can you repeat it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, you obviously didn't come out of college. You know, you didn't just come out of college starting your own guiding business, right? So, you know, a lot of guys out there, they have the same motivation. They want to guide. They want to be outside. They want to show people the outdoors. And, you know, but they don't want to own a business, right? And I'm sure a lot of your classmates who have gone into the outdoor industry also have the same mentality. So, what is it that, you know, in your training, right, because there was – when did you graduate? December 19. 2019. So, three years, right? Three years, three or four years you were training, and you saw – and I assume you saw what it was like to own a business, right, and, like, do these things? I think not really. You just kind of went into it? Yeah, because, like, I mean, other than, like, knowing Kel. Yeah, yeah. Like, Kel's kind of running his own thing, doing his thing, gets to pick where he wants to climb, what he wants to climb, all that. I was like, oh, that's kind of cool. But I think my motivation coming out of college was just, like, that was the goal, and I was like, okay, how can I get to that goal? Yeah. Like, all right. Like, I don't want to just be, like, an SPI instructor and be like, oh, let me just start up this business. And there is nothing wrong with just being an SPI. No, there's nothing wrong with that, yeah. Yeah. It's just I wanted to really, like, build out my business plan and be like, okay, my goal is to eventually be, like, IFMGA. Yeah. And, like, this is kind of, like, this thing that's going to help fuel that. Totally. And so, like, going from college, I pretty much was just seeking mentorship and then working at it. I lucked out in, like, again, shout out Ben Merkin. Shout out Mount Madness. And, like, they kind of took me under their wing for a couple years and, like, just gave me the chance to guide. Yeah. Because, like, you know, top rope, like, guiding compared to, like, full-on alpine climbing. It's totally different. So different. I had my first experience of it this summer with Mooney Mountain Guides. They took me over and showed me what it was like to, you know, guide alpine stuff. And, you know, we don't really have this was out in Washington in the northern Cascades. And we don't have that terrain out here, you know. When people train for things here, they do Mount Washington. They, like, do a prezzy traverse or they, I don't know, camp on Mount Washington, which is awesome. Shout out to Mount Washington. But, like, it's just something so different out there. I was not expecting it. So, you know, I did hear a story of when you first got out there to the Cascades that you were just kind of thrown into things. Is that true? Yeah, for sure. So I was honestly thinking about that, right, about, man, if I was just thrown into this, I think I would crumble. How did you get through it? Just a lot of, like, research data, talking to other guides. Yeah. But you didn't know anybody, did you? I knew a handful of folks out there, which was kind of cool. Everyone's out there just having a good time trying to, like, help each other out. There's no, like, gatekeeping. It's like I could text anyone and be like, yo, can you give me all the data for this route? And they'd be like, yes. Let me text you, like, images, pictures, all of this stuff. And then also I was just doing a ton of, like, research on my own. But, yeah, I got, I went out there in my rock guide course and alpine guide course before I started with them. So definitely, like, the prep time before that really helped. Where did you, like, because a lot of, you know, what I want to talk about is how you got to where you are now. And for those that aren't aware of the American Mountain Guide Association or the IFMGA and the International Foundation Mountain Guide, we'll cut that out. It's a European thing. But there are steps. In the American system there are a lot of steps that you have to take to get to the IFMGA. That's the highest level that you can get as a mountain guide certification in the world. That will allow an American guide to guide in Europe and other countries. So as someone who's taking their rock guide course and hopefully taking their alpine guide course next May, what did you do? Because for the alpine guide course, you know, it changed your resume a little bit. But for, like, trying to get what they wanted was kind of hard, especially being in the northeast. So what did you do to, like, get there? Oh, man, I full-on dirtbagged. Yeah? I remember, yeah, this was, like, the season right before I went out there. I pretty much sold everything that I had and then moved into a van. Yeah, so you just went all in. Yeah. A whole lot of van. Nice. And this van was a piece of work, man. It was a piece of work. It's probably worth at least 100 grand now. Dude, I sold it. I was like, I need to get rid of this thing before I just, just ticking time bombs. The resale on the van, though. This one was, like, definitely not... Someone would have bought it. Someone would have bought it. Someone did buy it. And I trashed on it. It was just, like, not new. It was a 96 Dodge Ram Van B2500 with the bubble top. Oh, great year. Fully converted. But the thing was just, like, going downhill on that thing. I was like, dude, this is a bomb, dude. Yeah. Like, these brakes, if they go, I am so... Nice. But, yeah, I pretty much sold everything, moved into a van, drove it across the country, and then just, like, climbed in a bunch of different spots going across. And that was, like, getting more of the prereqs for the outline guide. Yeah. So, like, that was big, right? Not a lot of people can say that they just basically sold everything and put all their things in one basket, right? How did you, like, when we talk about guiding, right, for me, I think a lot about my mental health, right, about how do I approach a climb and then how do I keep people safe, right? Keeping people safe can take a lot of mental energy. Oh, yeah. So, you know, as someone who sold their whole life, right, to just go all in on this one thing, did that ever weigh on you when you were guiding or, like... Not at all, actually. You were just, like, so determined. Yeah, I was pretty damn determined. I still am pretty damn determined. Yeah, I could attest to that. That is true. Determination is, like, we'll figure this shit out. Yeah. We'll figure it out piece by piece. Were there ever times, this is going to get a little heavy, were there ever times that you thought that it wasn't going to work out? Definitely, yeah. Yeah. I did have a moment of that. And, actually, I was talking to my mom about it. Yeah. Shout out to moms. Shout out to my mom. She was, like, I don't know if I really want to do this shit anymore. She was, like, I don't know if I really want to, like, guide or go down this path. She was, like, why? I was, like, I don't know. Like, it's just, like, there's a lot of, like, stuff going on. Yeah. She was, like, do you like it? Do you love it? I was, like, yeah. She was, like, then why would you quit it? Yeah. I was, like, all right, you make a lot of sense here. Yeah. Like, I'd rather do something I love and not make a lot of money doing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd rather, like, do something I fucking hate. Excuse my French. Okay. We'll let it out. But doing something that I, like, just despise or, like, I'm not enjoying it. Yeah. And then I'm just, like, not in it. Yeah, totally. I have a similar moment. I think I talked to you about this last year when I was getting ready for my Rock Guide course. Because there are prerequisites in there. You have to be at a certain level. I was also doing it in North Conway, you know, hot take, but probably one of the most sandbagged places in New England. I'm just kidding. It's not. It's just a different type of climbing that I wasn't used to. But it was a 10-day Rock Guide course. And I spent all summer. It was probably one of the hottest summers on record last year, you know, just, you know, baking away on Cathedral. And I built it up so much in my head. And then, you know, I didn't have to worry about housing because of a mutual friend, Mickey. He allowed me to stay at his house. So that was a shout-out to Mickey. And it was just the mental aptitude that it took for me to ‑‑ I don't even know. It took a lot out of me. I wear my heart on my sleeve. So it's hard for me to put it away sometimes. But I came out of the Rock Guide course really hating climbing. Like I actually hated climbing. Yeah. And after that, it was funny enough, I had to guide the next week at the Vermont Crag Fest. And then we did another BIPOC Trad Clinic. But I just really freaking hated climbing. So I also, similar to you, it wasn't my mom, but I talked to my fiancée. And I was just like, I don't know if I want to do this. I do have a full‑time job. I work at Dana Farber as a regulatory affairs specialist. So I do have a job that not entails the outside. But the end goal is to become a guide. But the whole time I ‑‑ oh, I am a guide. But the whole time I was just like, I don't know if I can do this. How am I going to guide somebody or teach something when I don't even like what I'm doing? The sport, right? And then, of course, I went head on into ice season with the goal of climbing WI5. I did it, and then I came out of it hating ice climbing. So I got to work on how I come towards things or achieve goals and not just go head on. But back to, like, your head space and to guiding and whatnot and, you know. So you just had that ‑‑ what's it called? What is it when people help you out? Nitroship? No. Nitroship mark? No, we'll cut this out. But, like, your crew. I have it in my hand. Like charades. Oh, God. Hold on. Three drops.