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Louis Rees-Zammit, a Welsh rugby player, has decided to leave rugby and pursue a career in the NFL. He has accepted an invitation to join the NFL International Player Pathway. This news came as a shock to many, as Rees-Zammit was expected to be named in the Wales squad. Although some are skeptical about the timing of the announcement, many wish him luck in his new endeavor. Welcome to the WRAP podcast, the place to catch up on all the regional and national rugby in Wales. You can find us on all the usual social media platforms and message us through there if you want, or you can email us at welshregionalrugbypod at gmail.com. That's all the boring stuff out of the way. Let's talk rugby. Hello and welcome to this week's edition of the WRAP podcast with me, Lee G. Joining me this week is Jamie and Harley. Good evening, gentlemen. Good evening. For those wondering, James isn't crying buckets of tears in the corner at the site of the Wales... Well, he is, but that's not why he's not on the podcast tonight. James is actually training tonight. He's actually out, like, practising getting his head stuffed up his arse by some big blokes on a rugby pitch. So that's where James is this evening, and we've changed it just for this week to account for the squad announcement, which we will discuss in a lot of detail. But first of all, before we do that, and we are going to rattle through stuff really quickly, so let's do a little bit of drink of the week. I'm going to put my hand up and I'm going to say that I haven't got a drink of the week this week for a very good reason, because we've changed days. I'm out and driving after this, so I haven't even got a glass of water. I did have a glass of water, and then I left it downstairs and took the laptop upstairs and started everything, and I haven't got a glass of water. So, yeah, I haven't got anything. Jamie, what have you got, mate? So this week I've got another beer from the beer club. This is called Winter Wheat, which is quite appropriate. So this is from the Left Bank Brewery, who are based in Brecon. 5.2%. Wheat beers aren't normally my thing, but I have to admit, I do quite like this one. So, yeah, that's what I got. It's pleasant enough. Winter Wheat from Left Bank Brewery. Cheers. Nice one. Harley, what have you got this week, mate? So I've got some from the Bath Ales Brewery. So it's Lansdowne's, the West Coast IPA. Just a very nice, easy drinking. It was one of the many options for the Tesco's four for seven quid, which has been my selection policy at the moment. Bit like Welsh regions now. I've got to see how many things I can get for as small a price as possible. Cool. OK. So we'll do Drink of the Week in a bit more detail next week, where it's a bit less pressured and what have you. So let's crack straight on with Newsdesk, Jamie, because, again, Newsdesk was looking quite quiet until this morning, wasn't it? Yeah. All yours, mate. Oh, wow. Well, there's only one place to start, isn't there? The bombshell that came out today, and I'm still reeling from it. I have to admit, I am absolutely reeling from this news. What a shock. OK, so Louis V Samet, he's going to leave Rugby Union with immediate effect to pursue a career in the NFL. The 22-year-old has accepted an invitation to join the NFL International Player Pathway, which provides elite athletes from around the world with an opportunity to earn a place on an NFL roster. So that came out, that news. Welsh Rugby Twitter and Rugby Twitter in general lost their shit. It was a bombshell, wasn't it? Nobody was expecting that. So in the press conference today, Warren Gatland said this. I learned about it an hour ago. Spoke to Louis about half an hour ago. It's a little bit of a shock. Gloucester had contacted me about 12. Things have happened pretty quickly. Louis said he had an approach on Sunday. It's something that he's always dreamed of. So there's a few people calling BS on Gatland's claim there. I say good luck to him. I am shocked by this news, but good luck to him. I genuinely hope that he carves out a successful career in the NFL, because he is a great athlete. But what a loss to Welsh Rugby and to the sport in general, because Rugby doesn't have many superstars, does it? He was one of them. Yeah, good luck to him. What do you lads think of this? Because like I said, I'm still in shock from this news. You just want him at the Browns, mate. You'd just be happy if he turned up at the Browns. You'd be over the moon, wouldn't you? Yeah, he would. I'd love that. Go on, Harley. You go first. The point about him being a superstar. So my wife's stepbrother, the youngest child, he's only interested in Rugby because of Louis Rees-Sammitt. What you want for Christmas was a Welsh Rugby jersey with 14 on the back, and he barely takes it off. We saw him the other week, and we said, that's him tackling. He's started playing Rugby now, on the wing, and he's all down to Sammitt. We do need these superstars. I think the big thing is, remember the last week or the week before we talked about Emanuel Fabio Bosa, we were saying, well it doesn't matter because you've got Dyer-Adams and Sammitt. Oh wait, now we've got Dyer-Adams and Sammitt. That makes it a bit more of a thing. But I mean, we'll go into the squad in more detail. But I think at 22, you know, he could go for a couple of years, and he'd come back and he's still going to be in this prime. And he might actually end up better for it. You know, if anything, hopefully, it'll give him a bit more of his... depending on how he plays, I'll be honest, I don't get the American sports ball. I've got a couple of things with it. The first one I don't understand is, why is it with immediate effect? You know, the NFL season is in its play-off bit at the minute, which some of us are still involved in, James, some of us aren't. Fine, fuck off, Lee. We had said the Browns did well to get to the play-off. We had all the injuries, we had, you know that. I know. I do believe you beat us earlier in the season anyway, you were one of our three losses. Yes, we did. Are we talking about the Dragons, Matt? Leave the Browns. So Jamie's a Browns fan, I'm a 49ers fan, so we both know a bit about American football, obviously. The American football season finishes on the last Sunday in January, and it doesn't start until the first Sunday in September. So it's quite a short season, September, October, November, December. 50% of the teams, well, more than that, 75% of the teams drop out at the end of December, and then everyone else carries on through in a knockout phase until you get to the end of January. So, if he does make it, there is still potential for him to play the second half of a season. Do you know what I mean? I'm not saying that he'd want to, because it wouldn't be for the money, because the money that he'd be on, if he makes it in the NFL, the money that he'd be on would be absolutely astronomical compared to what he's on now. He could still come back and go, you know what, I fancy a season on the wing for the Dragons, or half a season on the wing for the Dragons, just for the laugh of it. Do you know what I mean? So, to me, there's nothing that says he can't then come back and still play rugby. I agree with what you're saying, Harley, you give it two years, and in two years he'll be, what, 25, 26? And then he'd still be back in time for the next World Cup. So, you know, crack on. I just don't understand why approach on Sunday and your contract with Gloucester is terminated today. And that's the bit that I'm, there's other stuff. Yeah, there is cash, but he's obviously been approached. There's a couple of different routes through to the NFL if you're in the UK. So I think it's Loughborough and Newcastle University have got a dedicated NFL, almost like academies, like we have academies, they have an NFL academy in Loughborough and Newcastle, and that's part of the international pathway system. But by the sounds of it, he's been recruited as an elite player to go over to America and start almost that step up. That's what it sounds like to me. And, you know, he's worked with NFL coaches a couple of times before he's been in videos where he's done agility stuff with NFL coaches and he's done strength and conditioning with NFL coaches. So it's not a massive shock that he's going. It's just the timing of it. I find the timing of it strange. And I'm fairly certain, you know, we all know there's all sorts of rumours. As soon as you become a person of note and your face is in the paper and you start doing all of the media stuff and all of that kind of stuff, rumours start flying and this, that and the other. And they are just rumours. So it wouldn't surprise me if at some point a rumour comes out and somebody goes, and that's why Zanuck left. Do you know what I mean? He's travelling to Florida this week and the international player pathway programme that he's going on is 10 weeks. So, yeah, he's going to start this programme immediately. But you say what I mean, it is a huge shock to me. And I've seen people comparing it to the Christian Wade situation, but this is different. This is much different from Christian Wade because Christian Wade was not in the England picture. He was discarded from England. He openly made his feelings clear that he was going to pursue a career in the NFL. So when Christian Wade announced he was going to go to the NFL and he went to the Bills, didn't he, the Buffalo Bills, it wasn't a surprise or shock to anyone because we knew that's what he wanted to do. And like I said, he wasn't in the international set-up. But this was a bombshell because we all expected him to be named in our Wales squad. And he got delayed. You know, that's the thing. People were coming up with all sorts of conspiracy theories as to why he's been delayed. You know, places he was almost going to be, you know, named instead and all this. And when it came out, that news, it was a huge shock. I still can't believe it. You know, and I think it is a shame that we've lost a genuine superstar in Welsh rugby and the sport itself. It's a massive shock to me. Massive shock. I do think that the whole money side of things, because obviously if he goes to the NFL, he gets drafted. Even if all he does is make it to pre-season, he'll pick up a $200,000 cheque, which I don't know how long their pre-season work. That sounds like a brilliant job for me. But I mean, if he does make up a decent bit of money at the NFL for a couple of seasons, is he going to be that bothered if he wants to come back, play for Wales, to come back to a region? You know, say he wants to come home state, you know, he wants to go to Cardiff because, you know, he can basically walk from his mum's house to training. He's just come off a $5 million a year contract with the San Francisco 49ers. But I'm going back to my mum's house so I can walk to training. You know he goes to his mum's for dinner every week already, right? And he's on a decent contract at Gloucester. He lives in Cardiff and enjoys the Gloucester so he can have dinner with his mum. Like, let's be fair here. Like, you know, he likes his home comforts. But the thing is, like, if you just want to go and say, oh, I want to have some time here, get back into rugby, then go to the World Cup. It kind of makes sense because, you know, he's lived more than he learned in a career in rugby. The thing is, so I played... But that is if he makes it, that's one thing. You know, I hope, I wish him all the success. But, I mean, how many hundreds of college athletes don't make it? A thousand. Yeah, that's the thing. And Tier 2 Rugby made a good point about this on Twitter because he said that most of the rugby players who try NFL, they go to the practice squad and they don't make it any further. So it is a big risk for Louis. There's no guarantee he's going to make it. But, yeah, it's... The only thing I'd say is he'd probably pick up another contract. If he came back to uni, he'd pick up a contract, no problem. Yeah, exactly. So he's in a no-lose situation. He knows he's good enough to go and give it a go. Remember when Cubby got offered the opportunity to go play sevens in the Olympics? I mean, he was like, you know, he'd just broken into the Welsh squad, and it was like, well, you're going to miss the Six Nations or wherever it was because you need to go and train with the Olympics. Well, actually, if I don't do this now, in four years' time, I might be injured, so I won't get that opportunity again, but I can... But he was right. Exactly. And then he retires two years later because of a head knock. So, you know, Zamit may go out there, play one game, bust his leg and never be able to walk again. You know, not hoping that's... Do you know what I mean? You just don't know what's going to happen, and you take the money while it's on the table sort of thing. But what I was going to say, and this is a bit... As rugby union players, we don't understand this because it's just not something in our game. So when I was young, I played rugby union, I played rugby league, and I played American football in university, yeah? I trained with American football, but I was semi-pro at the time, so I couldn't stay. So, with rugby, the only protective gear that I was wearing at the time was tape around my ears, yeah? That was my protection, tape around the ears. I went to rugby league, and you get given the shoulder pads, and they feel a little weird. You can't move your arms up, and you've got three different grades of the shoulder pads. So I was second row, so you couldn't move it, you can't catch a ball up in the air and all that kind of stuff. It's heavy, and it's there to make it hit. You then go to American football, and they put the pads on you, first of all, because you haven't got a clue how to put them on. It is the weirdest feeling when somebody kind of puts them on you, and the ones we had back then, you had to tie up with velcro ones now and stuff like that. It feels really, really weird. And then they put a helmet on you, and you can see, like, tiny, tiny slivers, where you're compared to what you can see normally, and you can see this tiny little letterbox. And then you're essentially looking for a brown, size 3 ball being thrown at you from about 40 metres away. Do you know what I mean? It's a really different and difficult kind of scenario to be in. So, yeah, he's a great player, but there's a lot of stuff in between where he is now and signing for the 49ers, which is what I hope he does in the end, just because, you know, that's what I guess. So, yeah, best of luck to him, but it's a lot of questions around it, so, yeah. Absolutely, yeah. Okay, so in other news then. Good news for Cardiff supporters. 21-year-old full-back Cam Wynnet has signed a long-term extension to his contract with Cardiff Rugby. That's good news for Cardiff and Welsh Rugby. So, yeah, really pleased to see that, because Cam Wynnet has been one of the best players in regional rugby this season. I've been very impressed with him, so good on him. And in terms of Mason Grady, a lot of speculation around his future. A lot of clubs in England are sniffing after him. However, Wales Online are reporting that Mason Grady will turn down offers from English clubs to stay at Cardiff. Matt Shourette said after Harlequin's game that we're confident we'll keep Mason. And again, that'll be a big boost, not just for Cardiff, but for Wales. So, fingers crossed he will stay in Wales and reject those offers from England. And then just a final bit of news then. So, Lance Bradley, who we know is the new Ospreys chief executive, well, he said that the region are looking to move away from the Swansea.com stadium. And let's be honest, this is something they should have done years ago, quite frankly. But better late than never. Bradley has held talks with a landlord, Swansea City Football Club, and he's confirmed today that there will be a Q&A event before the Elster game on Sunday, February 18th. So, any Ospreys fans who are headed to the Elster game, there will be a Q&A. And you have the opportunity to ask Lance some questions about the move and potential options and what have you. Speaking of Q&As, I understand this one's done in Cardiff, isn't it, Harley? Yes, so there's going to be an online Q&A as part of the S10 Trust, Rugby Trust, with the... I keep forgetting his surname. Basically, the player, the supporters representative to the Cardiff board, he does a regular Q&A every three to four months or so. So, that will be on the 30th of January. So, there's still plenty of time to sign up to Cardiff, to the S10 Trust. So, it's £1 and that's you sorted for life then. You just need the email and they'll send you the Zoom link. As I said on the Cardiff Central pod, if anyone does want to sign up to it and doesn't get the email for the thing, DM the Cardiff Central ex-Twitter account or the Facebook group and I'll try and get that link over to you. Or you can message the S10 guys directly through their channels. Which, again, there's a good chance it might be me who's dealing with it because I'm in charge of the socials that week. Okey-dokey. Are you saying that you're getting all, like, admin stuff sorted now? Are you putting your hands up as I'm good at admin? Is that what it is, mate? I'm supposed to just be, just do social stuff. My ringer is to big up Cardiff, take the piss out of the Ospreys. But any other thing would happen else. Okay, well that sounds okay. That's a very similar rebit to what we have as well. So, big up the Scarletts and take the piss out of the Ospreys. What about yourself, James? Anything like that with you? Big up the Dragons and take the piss out of the Ospreys? Is that on your agenda anyway? As a Dragons fan, yeah, I don't like taking the piss out of other regions because of where we are. If we were a better team, I'd be a lot more confident in ripping into other teams that they support us. But given where we've been the past few years, I just don't feel comfortable as a Dragons fan ripping the piss out of other teams because it's just not right. Maybe when we're a better team, I'll be a bit more confident in doing that. Yeah, so that's something to look for in the future. When Jamie starts ripping the piss out of you, you know the Dragons are having a good season. You know things are under you. Cool. So, anything else on the news desk this week, James? No, that's it, mate. We're all done. We're all done on the news desk. Okay, so we're quickly going to run through fixtures from last weekend. And then we'll do a quick preview of games for this weekend. And then we will crack on with all things Welsh rugby union related. So, who wants to start with... I tell you what, Harley, you go first on last weekend's, mate. Because I've had nothing but bloody Cardiff Blues supporters giving it this about how good it is to get bloody 50 points put on you. So, go on. You give us the Cardiff Blues. And I use that term specifically. Give us the Cardiff Blues. Can I just say, Cardiff Blues have European pedigree. What we saw last night was purely Cardiff rugby. Other than the first 20 minutes, you know, we didn't score after the 23rd minute or something like that. Like, it wasn't good. But you can say, oh, well done. It was a sellout. The atmosphere was great. Yeah, it was a great atmosphere for your Queens fans. Because all I could hear was the chants for Harley Queens and their song, which I had no idea what it was. I think it was just called the Harley Queens song. I just thought it was crap. It was just a very bad game. But also, I feel like it's one that we can just park and get over with it. I thought that meant we were out of Europe. It turns out, if we win in wrestling, we can still get through to round of 16 or, you know, with a few less points, we go to the Challenge Cup. I thought I was going to basically be like, right, I don't have to think about Europe anymore. But no, yeah, this competition's gone mad. It really has. Can we have like a sensible format where, you know, back-to-back teams make the knockouts? It is a strange format. For both cups, it is a strange format that it almost doesn't feel like a cup competition. It almost feels like an X-factor, where you go in and you show what you can do. And then after you've had a go at it, somebody turns around and goes, OK, I like you, you and you. You can come through and you're in the next round. It confuses me sometimes. The amount of people I've seen who say they just don't pay attention to it. It gets to the round of 16 and they don't see it. I mean, one good thing is, unlike the old European format, we're at the last round and there's plenty still to play for, whether it's home values or actually qualifying. But yeah, I mean, nobody's got a clue what's happening. Nobody's got a clue why 50-odd points twice shouldn't have a chance of going into the knockouts. Yeah. Yeah, I was surprised how bad we were against Grinz. I thought it'd be a lot, you know, there'd be a lot more. I thought we'd at least score more than twice. I didn't think it would. There's a pattern, though. There's a pattern developing with Cardiff, though, Harley. Yeah, we're really bad after the first 20 and then we can't pick up. Our centre's just not strong enough. You guys go 100 miles an hour in the first half and there's a big drop-off in the second half. I've watched Cardiff a lot this season and it's becoming a regular theme. And even against the Dragons, there was a big drop-off in the second half there. For the first 30 minutes, I thought Cardiff was great. Yeah, I understand, because you were well in the lead and you took a foot off the gas, that's fine. But it is a theme that's developing. The first 30 minutes, I thought Cardiff were really, really good. But I think what really hurt them was that try from Beard just before half-time. A very contentious try. I don't know what your thoughts on it were. Big debate on social media. Do you think that was a try? I think that was a perfectly good try-saving tackle that got spoilt there. Mason Gray did incredibly well, didn't he? Really did. I mean, bear in mind, he starts the play on the other wing and manages to get through. I think the biggest worry for me was... I mean, I know people were saying about how the pack was a bit bullied, but the really worrying thing was how easily we were torn apart in the midfield. Yes. Halle-Holloway really, though, did not have a good night's sleep. They really didn't. Bear in mind the discussion we had on the Central podcast, where we basically predicted that Halle-Holloway was going to come in, because it's the whole, oh, wait, we're up against big physical 12, so Halle-Holloway is a bit more physical than Ben Thomas, although I think Ben Thomas was actually... that side of his game was a lot better than people give him credit for. But I think people fail to understand is, quite often, when you're in the 12th half, it's the 10 going in there, and you've got a very nice nippy 10, like Gerrard. Also, Esther Hazen isn't a big bruising brute. He is, but that's not all his game is. You know, he actually does have a step. He quite often ends up on the wing, because he's so quick and he's got good hands. You know, he stepped in at 10 quite comfortably for Quinn in the past. So that's one where, I mean, I'm going to go into more detail on it tomorrow night with Cardiff, but that's one where I think the selection was wrong. Yeah. We missed having someone like Josh Adams in Tamani as well. So I feel like with Josh Adams, even though he can't really defend 13 as comfortably as he can on wing, it gives the 13 more confidence to not have to cover the wing. He can be in a bit further, because Adams is that good. And I think losing Cam Winnett that early and having Ben Thomas going on to fall back, which a lot of Cardiff fans, although he can sort of play full back, none of us are particularly happy with him there. You know, we all see him as a 12. I don't think that happens either. But this is something that I've seen across all four regions over the last week. We're about halfway through the season now, yeah? We're at the sticky bit and everyone is talking about injury lists and squad depth and replacements. And, you know, we said this at the start of the season, there's going to come a point where you're literally sitting there and looking around and going, well, I would discuss this when we talk about scrum arse and outside arse in the squad. Who have we got left to play? Have we got enough people to actually put one on the pitch and one on the bench? So, yeah, Cardiff are in it, Dragons are in it, Ospreys are in it, Scarlets are in it. It's not a comfy position for any of us at the minute with injuries and stuff like that. So what I'm saying is, Harley, suck it up, son. You're not the only one. It's just saying that it's just a symptom of what's wrong with Y4P and who'd have predicted it? Wait, all of us when this funding model got announced. Yeah. Shall we do the Ospreys bit just very quickly? They won a game, nothing else to say, right? I was going to say about the Cardiff game, I thought, was it Young's first try, the little chip over the top where Adam Beard caught it. I just thought that was a thing of beauty. I watched that and I rewound it and I watched it again and then rewound it and watched it again. I just thought it was a lovely little try, but very Mr. Young orientated, didn't you? He was great, because that was his first game back after that calf injury and I thought he was fantastic. I actually thought the half-backs played well as well. I thought Thomas Williams and De Beers were very good. He won some turnover ball, but in the second half, they just, you know. I've seen a few tweets from Cardiff supporters who are like, oh, I don't think the score reflects the game and, you know, there's an overreaction to the results. But I don't think there was, because, like I said, I think Cardiff were brilliant for the first 30 minutes, but in that second half, it was just one-way traffic and they were getting a lot of joy through that midfield. It is slightly concerning that Cardiff are going through these games where they really got in the first half, then they drop it off in the second. But there's still a feel-good factor at Cardiff, isn't there? You know, like, they're not winning many games and yet so many supporters are really bought in. Maybe that is what it is. But I think there's a lot of it, mind, is that the brand of rugby they're playing. Cardiff are easy on the eye. They are good to watch. I mean, I hate saying it. De Beers are a triumph supporter. When they're in full-flow attack, Cardiff are a really good, entertaining team to watch. They score some nice tries. But you do wonder, because it is still a results business, if they keep losing week in, week out, when does the feel-good factor sort of ebb away a little bit, I wonder. But, yeah, it was a good game. I enjoyed it. But, yeah, a bit worrying and concerned in the way they keep dropping off in the second half. But there's still some green shoots there for Cardiff, I think, you know. I agree. In terms of the scoreline, I think we probably might be about eight points, eight to ten points in the difference wrong, because I think that last try at the end wasn't a try. And then that time when Ernst, that ball where Ernst clearly comes from the touchline into the mall, grabs the ball, and you're like, how did none of you see that? He's six foot nine. Dylan Lewis, though, scored a try to rub salt in the wound. Scored a try and winning a penalty. He won a scrum penalty. I know, he won a scrum penalty. Dylan Lewis, just when he thought he was going to rub salt in the wound enough, he actually won a scrum penalty. Oh, my days. That's because they were busy laughing at him. They're going, you, again. And they all just collapsed laughing, and that's where he gets the penalty. I'm convinced he must have licked Tory Domichowski's ear on and he giggled and fell down. There must be some sort of secret thing he knew from the changing room, because it's like, I've never seen that. The best old bloke in a scrum that I've seen, so when I was playing years and years ago, and I was playing for the seconds for some reason, and there's an old bloke, a proper, proper old-timer, and he went into a scrum, so I'm in second row, and as he goes down, because back then it was different, we didn't do the cross play, we just kind of in, and as he goes in with a hit, he goes, oh, you smell nice, mate. You smell like your missus, you do. Whack him. Kicked off from there, and I'm like, oh, that's what props do. That's how they do it. So, let's discuss the Osprey scheme. They won. They won against a bunch of carpet cleaners, and the shoe-showing boys of the Esquire, so I mean, frankly, it's about to be a first year now. I watched the first half, right? He said the exact same thing on the group chat. He did? He did, yeah. He said that, why are we passing it to the wingers, because our wingers have never seen the ball for the rest of the season, so why give it to them now? But, in that first half, right, I counted, well, first of all, one of the Osprey's players was crowd-surfing a mall. Did you see that? I missed that bit. He went into a ruck, and then one of the Perpignan players stood up, and he was literally flat on the top of a ruck or a mall, like six foot off the ground like this, and you're like, okay, this isn't a normal game. I saw three passes hit people's heads, because they weren't looking at where the ball was coming from. I saw four passes go to floor, where, you know, you just, in training, you just throw the ball anywhere and see if someone catches it. And that's what they were doing, they were just literally throwing it, and then looking around, oh, no, nobody picked that one, there's nobody there. So I gave up by half time. I thought it was a joke by half time. I went and watched Netflix. I went and watched them fool me once. You can only fool me once on Netflix, which is a very good thing, by the way. But, yeah, so I gave up by half time. I thought, oh, it just wasn't fair, did it? To be fair, Perpignan did look like a team of strangers who'd just turned up to a stadium to play a game of rugby in fairness. I mean, the amount of times they dropped the ball, I lost count. They were a bit shambolic. However, we do have to give Osprey some credit here, right, because they are down to their bare bones, right? They've got 23 players missing. And let's not forget, before the game started, George North was ruled out for illness. And then you've got Derby Lake going off, you've got James Fender going off, you've got Dan Phillips going off injured, right? They have got some big names missing now, the likes of Nagy, Cuthbert, Flicker, Morris, Owen Williams, Morgan Williams, Rhys Henry, Rhys Davies, Nicky Smith, et cetera, et cetera. They've still got the job done. To be fair, they're down to their bare bones and they've still managed to get the job done. Did they get a bonus point? Fine. But they've got to win, and I think they deserve a lot of credit for that. But they are really down now, aren't they, to their bare bones? They've got to go to South Africa next. And even Toby Proof has said, like, it's a fight for the survival now, it's a survival game. So I don't know what they're going to do now, have they got any more players. But credit to them, not forgetting the job done. Because we've only been once in front of him. Yeah, but the amount of balls that were on the floor, they literally didn't need to create anything. It was just, we'll wait until they throw the ball into an empty space and then we'll pick it up and do something with it. It was one of those kind of games. So, yeah, it's not a game that you hold up and go, look how good we were. Like you said, Jim, it was, we got the job done, we won. And then you move on to the next game. It's not a kind of game where you go, it's not going to be on the show reel at the end of the season. It's not a classic. But a shout out to Yes Hopkins as well, because I thought he was terrific. And he's got gas, that boy, isn't he? He was really, really good in fairness. But no, I think they deserve a lot of credit. Because like I said, they are right down to the bare bones. And they got the job done. And yeah, full credit to them. So Vasco up next. And I'm sure that they really, they won that game coming up, didn't they? Of all the games, of all the places to go to. I know they could have really done without it. But yeah, good on them. And they flew to the last 16. So, whatever they win, it's a quarterfinal. It remains to be seen. But they've done it. They do what they need to do. Well, you know, I was praising European knockouts. They are the island of club rugby, aren't they? Can't win a quarterfinal, unfortunately. But that'll change in the season. That's fine. I hope so. So let's talk about Dragons then, Jim. How did your weekend go? You know when I said I wasn't going to pay to watch the Dragons on EPCR TV? You did, didn't you? Guess what? I ended up paying to watch this game. I know. What a sucker I am. And I knew I was going to regret it as soon as I pressed the button to confirm my card details. I knew I was going to regret it. I never missed opportunity for the Dragons, I'm afraid. So I finished the season with a 20, Dragons 17. First off, we were really good, actually. We were 12-0 up. Kai Evans kicked all his points. We were making all the right decisions. We took all the points on offer. We were controlling the game. We had a lot of chances in the 22. Didn't take them, but we were kicking all the points on offer. And then sort of towards the 30-minute mark, Seabrook came back into the game. And the Dragons do what they always do when they're under pressure. They can see the load of penalties and then Seabrook come into it. So I think it was 12-8 at halftime. And I was still reasonably confident, actually, that we would see the job. You know, we would get this job done because I thought we were in control for most of that first half. And then in the second half, well, I mean, I hate using the cliché game of two halves, but it really was a game of two halves because Seabrook came out and they were absolutely firing. Full credit to them. They were very good. Dragons dropped off. Didn't show up in the second half. Kai Evans missed five points from the tee in the second half. He missed one. He wasn't quite as bad as Costolo, but he did miss a penalty in front of the post in the second half, which I expected him to kick with his eyes closed, to be honest. So he missed that. And then he missed the conversion from Jarrod Ross's drive. So that proved to be quite costly. But in the second half, it was so strange because we went for a period, as Dave Flanagan mentioned after the game as well, we went for a period of like 20, 25 minutes. We didn't have a ball. It was just all Seabrook. We could not get our hands on the ball. Seabrook just controlled our second half. And full credit to them because they did deserve that win. Except Dragons are in a tricky spot now because they have to beat Sharks to guarantee qualification. So they've made it hard for themselves as per usual, but they did come away with a losing bonus point. But yeah, very disappointed. And look, you know, if we're serious about, don't disrespect the Seabrook. We know they're a good team. We know they're improving. They've got some really good players. But if we're serious about Dragons improving, that would be more competitive. Well, I'm sorry. We've got to be beating Alexa Seabrook now. We've got to be beating them. And it's just a never wasted opportunity. Could have guaranteed qualification. That hasn't happened. We've got to do it the hard way now. So a good first half, a very poor second half, and Dragons having it all to do against the Sharks. So yeah, very disappointed. But it could have been worse, in fairness. We could have come away with no bonus points, but very disappointed. I agree with what Dave Langham said. You know, he said in the first half, we controlled the game. It should have been game over half-time. You spot on. So it's funny you say that. I've moaned so much about the Dragons' defence this season. That's been an issue because we don't have a defence coach. For this game, it was actually our attack that let us down. The lack of accuracy. So yeah, very disappointed. All to do on Sunday. And yeah, it's a golden opportunity for the Dragons to play. And if we're going to qualify now, we've got to do it the hard way. But on the plus side, the Sharks have been shit this season. Yeah, yeah, there is that. But they've walloped us, haven't they? Yeah, but they've walloped us. You forget they absolutely destroyed us when we played the Sharks last, so... We'll talk about fixtures coming. We'll do fixtures coming in a minute. But... I was going to pick up on one thing there, James. And again, we'll discuss this at the very end. Dave Flanagan or David? No. And you know why. Yes, I know. And Harley mentioned this as well. So, on the Dragonslayer podcast that we did... Oh, actually, now we mention this, can I just say a huge thank you to everyone who's listened and sent us feedback on that. So, that episode that we did with David Buttridge is our most listened to episode. You can confirm the figures, Harley. They're pretty good, aren't they? They're all very good, mate. Very good. We've had excellent feedback. Fair play to David for coming on to the pod. He was open, he was honest. I really appreciate him giving up his time. Thank you to everyone who sent positive feedback. Yes, so, on this podcast... David Buttridge was referring to Dave Flan as David Flanagan, and it did take some getting used to. It didn't sound right, did it? It did not sound right. I've always known him as Dave Flan. It's either Dave Flanagan or Dave Flan, but he was calling him David Flanagan. And, yes, it did throw me a little bit at first, so I know where you're getting at. Yeah, he was a good chap. There was one bit in there where he called him David, and Gav must have been saying something, because it flicked to Gav, and he kind of goes... ...die. He said the same thing when everyone refers to Da Young as David Young. And you're like, what? Yeah. I know what you mean. I just want to pick up one thing with Zebra, though. Beating Zebra for Dragons, really, is an upset. Because I don't know if you guys listen to the Pirate Rugby Pods, though. Obviously, your co-host on there, Scott Speeder... Catboy. Catboy. Sorry, but Hugh Griffin is always going to be known as Catboy. This is in the Scarlet Speeder Pod. Hugh Flycat on the Pirate Rugby Pod. Have you seen the Scarlet Pod this week? No, I did watch it, yeah. So, see our names here? Hugh is on as Catboy. Grump, weren't you? Hugh was down as Grump. I was down as the Grump. I was going to do a thing about the Grump, but I had some stuff to moan about, and we were having such a good pod, I went, oh, I can't bring it out. But, yeah, so Hugh's on there as Catboy now, officially. Yeah, but anyway, so they have the Sprits and Scrims going on, and they're saying that both Italian regions, so Benton gets some extra investment from the investors, I think Zebra's getting a little bit, but they get the equivalent of, you see, 6 million euros or 6 million quid from the Italian rugby union. So, from next season, we'll be getting three quarters of what Zebra and Benetton get before their sponsorships for player money, and you're like, fuck, we've fallen behind. That's where we are now. Thanks for bringing the mood up there, Harley. Thanks for really livening things up when it's the most depressing statistic of the night there, mate. That was my start of the week. I get your point, I do get your point. I still feel like dragons, that there are certain games that dragons target to win, and I'm sorry, but Zebra should always be one of those. That's not disrespect to Zebra, but that should be a game that dragons should target and win. And I'm sure Zebra would say the same thing about the dragons, but that was a winnable game. We had a squad that was good enough. Although, interestingly, Leon Brown was dropped for this game, and Kane Basham was overlooked. So, make into that what you will. So, that's Dive Flanagan. On the one hand, I'm sending a message to those players, because they have underperformed over the festive period. But on the other hand, it's just a sign now that they're moving on out, and Dive Flanagan is bringing the other guys through. So, I just thought that was interesting. I'm going to, particularly on one of those names, I'm going to text on a couple of things I've seen on social media when we go into the squad profit. Are we going to do pre-reviews first, or...? Well, we've got to do Skarlet's game first, mate, which will be very quick, because I didn't see it. So, I'm only going on what people have told me from watching it, and some of the commentary that I've seen. I can give you a quick breakdown if you want. No, no, I'll fucking do it. Fucking do it, are you? Shut your hole for a second, fella. Fucking hell, man. You've had your bit. So, yeah. I mean, I was watching the score updates, and you're seeing everybody else's scoreboard moving, and you're going like, well, have we kicked off? And it was like 15, 20 minutes, and it was still 0-0, or 3-0 to us, or something like that. And, yeah. So, by all accounts, defence held out. We didn't have much ball the first 15, 20 minutes, and defence was holding up. We were doing all right. We were actually, you know, our Achilles' heel so far this season has been defence. We were just running around like headless chickens, and we just couldn't stop anything. We couldn't turn the ball over, nothing. And it looks like, step by step, we're actually improving stuff. The scrum is improving. The line-out is improving. Defence is improving. Attack is improving. It feels like we're all starting to. And then, Johnny Williams puts in his audition for WWF Wrestling, comes off the top rope with a flying headbutt, and takes out, I think it was second row, or whatever. Yeah. Definitely. Any complaints about that? No, I've only seen what they've shown on the telly. And if you're going to go into a tackle standing up, then you open yourself up to that, you know. It's really disappointing, you know, a player that should know better. It's not the first time he's done it, you know, and that's why I sent a comment to the group, you know, as far as I'm concerned now. With the way things are, if you're going to keep doing it like that, you become a liability. You just signed your transfer request, you know. And I rate him as a player. I know James doesn't, but that's because James can only see things in black. So, you know, he's run all over. When he's on form and going forward, he's unstoppable. He can pass off both hands, he can kick, he can run. You know, his defence is rock solid. So, the issue is, is he keeps giving away penalties and red cards and whatever. So, yeah, I got no issues with it, but we then didn't readjust quick enough. And I think, again, it's one of those things, in hindsight, you look back at it and you go, you know, should we have taken off, you know, one of the back row and brought on Johan Nicklaus ahead of when we did? And, yeah, you know, if you take up those middle 20 minutes where they scored 30-odd points in 20 minutes, we won the rest of the game. We won the 60 minutes to either side of those 20 minutes in the middle. It's just sod's law that it took that long. But, you know, I still see the same people saying, time for Peel to go, et cetera, et cetera. But I'm thinking, actually, we start the turn of the corner. In fact, I think we've probably turned that corner in the Ospreys game. You know, we should have won that Ospreys game. It was our own fault. We should have won the Dragons. Yeah. The Dragons as well. I think we didn't deserve to win the Dragons, to beat the Dragons, but we should have. I think we deserved to beat the Ospreys, and we didn't, and it was all our fault. It was in our hands. You know, we weren't relying on interceptions or drop balls or anything like that. It was, we created six clear try scoring opportunities and we screwed them up. But we hadn't created six clear try scoring opportunities for the whole of the rest of the season. Now we're starting to get back into, okay, let's play it this way and let's do that. So, yeah, there's been a lot of shit thrown around stats. I feel like we're heading in the right direction. So, I'm not bothered by that loss. So, Lee, is it true about the rumours that Peel has signed a contract extension at the Scarlets? By all accounts, yeah. This is like Dean Ryan at the Dragons. So, when they were having a really poor run of form, he signed a contract extension, but the club didn't announce it because they knew they were going to get, you know, some stick from the fans. So, it just wasn't the right time to announce this. So, that's interesting. Yeah. You know, there's all sorts of rumours going around until it gets announced. We won't actually know. But like I said, by our reckoning, there's about 12 players leaving at the end of the season and seven coming in. Apparently three of them have signed already. But until it all gets announced officially, you never really know, sort of thing. So, yeah. You know, the guy's been through about as bad a time as I think he could have gone through, and I think he's learned a lot. And I think the club is in the process of changing a lot of the stuff that they were getting wrong. I think there's been a pressure cooker that's built up, and the lid's come off, and all the shit's come out, and then you've got a couple of people going, right, okay, yeah, we need to pick this up now, and we need to put it all back together and make something for tea. Also, shout out to Archie Hughes as well, because I thought he was very, very good. Fair play to Scarts as well, because they were 30 points to three down at one point, and I'm watching this thinking, oh, they're going to get battered now, this is going to be a 50, 60-pointer. Those last 20 minutes or so, they really did front up, they scored some nice tries, and they did play well. So, they did finish on a high, and I think that's something to build on. Okay, you can argue, Clemont took the foot off the gas, whatever, but I just thought the character Scarlett showed in those last 20 minutes is encouraging at least. You know, they could have rolled over. Hugh asked last night on the Scarlett podcast, why isn't Archie Hughes in the team more often? I said he's too small. He looked good. Yeah, but I said he's too small, and he went, oh, no, no. So, he's two inches shorter than Gareth Davis, okay? So, two inches shorter, fair enough, that's not that much. 15 kilos lighter. That's like three of my dogs lighter than an international. You've got tiny dogs, mate. I've got small dogs. I do have small dogs. Yes. But the point is, you know, in two seasons' time, he'll have put that bulk on, and, you know, Gareth Davis is probably one of the ones that will leave simply because we can't afford to keep him. You know, when somebody's on that amount of money, and it's going to be away with Wales quite a fair bit. So, yeah, when you've got players like him coming through, you know, it's not so much of a bad thing. Okay, let's do a quick rundown of who we've got this weekend. So, start with you then, Jane. So, Sharks, yeah? Sharks at home? Next Sunday, half past five. Not the best kick-off time all day, to be honest with you. Yeah, so by half past five on Sunday, the Dragons will know exactly what they need to do to qualify. If we win, we are going to qualify. But if we lose, but we pick up a bonus point, depending on how other results go our way, that could be enough. But first and foremost, we have got to win. It is possible that the Dragons could earn a home tie in the last 16, but again, they need to win, and they need things to go their way. It really didn't help us that Cheetahs lost to Poe on the weekend in Amsterdam. Banks are a bunch of cheaters. You had one job. That's all we needed to do, is to beat a disinterested Poe team, and that would have helped us this weekend, but that didn't help us. So, yeah. With this game, it's a tricky one, because how are the Sharks going to approach it? We know that Dragons, I do expect them to bring back the likes of Tame Basher and Liam Brown, et cetera. I do expect us to go as strong as we can, because we need to win. We're at home. How are the Sharks going to approach it? So, they're guaranteed qualification atop the pool. When they played Oyonnax on the weekend, and they thumped them, they had Ibn Etzebeth, Oxlade Nish, Makosa Mpimpi, Ukan Olam, Jayne Linton, except for Broughton Williams. Are all those guys going to come to Newport on the weekend? If not, great. It's still going to be difficult, but if they are, we're in big trouble, Alfie. So, yeah, I'm dreading it. On the one hand, it is going to be nice to see those World Cup winners on Newport. On my doorstep, it's going to be great. But yeah, I'm a bit nervous about this. I just wish we was in a position where we did have to win. If it was just a case of, yeah, we were edgy through, it doesn't matter. But Dragons, though, they're under pressure to win this game, and that's a position we really didn't want to be in. And the fact of the matter is, the Dragons shouldn't be free from free in Europe. We should have beaten Po, we lost in the last minute. We should have beaten Seabird, but we haven't. Credit Seabird for getting the win, but like I said, we've got to do things the hard way. So, yeah, I'm a bit nervous about this. But fingers crossed we can get the job done. I think we'd all like to be in the position where we didn't have to win to go through, James. If we didn't have to win to go through, we're in the final every week, mate. I know, but the Sharks are fine, aren't they? You know, and Cheetahs are fine. They don't have to win their games. Why am I saying this on the Dragons? Well, we may not necessarily have to win. Like I said, it depends on the results. But the likelihood is we are going to have to beat the Sharks. And if they're coming down here fully loaded with a Springbok World Cup winners, then it's going to be very, very difficult. Oh, by the way, on the Dragonslayer pod this week, we are joined by a special guest. We're going to be joined by Angus Usher, who's a sports analyst and Sharks fan. Really good follower on Twitter, so he's going to help us preview this game. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to it, but I'm also dreading it as well, because if they come down here fully loaded, then, yeah, it's going to make the task very difficult. So, your prediction for that then, James? We'll just do your prediction on your own game. We won't bother doing everyone's prediction on every game. So, your prediction on the Dragons and Sharks? Well, look, Dragons have won three games in a row at home with Ronnie Craig, and there's a big focus now on getting results with Ronnie Craig. So, for that reason alone, I'm not confident in saying this, right? I'm not saying this because I'm confident. It's more hope than anything else. I'm going to say Dragons by four. I think we'll just etch it. But if they come down here with a World Cup winners, then, yeah, it could be Sharks by 20 or 30, couldn't it? But, fingers crossed, we'll do enough to get it. How many games this season have you predicted a Dragons win for me? It must have been two or three, I suppose. I was going to say, there's not many. I think we might have to frame that one. I know. Jamie's predicting a win again. I'm trying to be positive. And after my chat with David Butcherstone, I'm more enthused. I'm trying to get on board. I mean, it does help if you win more games, doesn't it? Then you could be more positive. But, yeah, I'm going to go for a Dragons win. But, like I said, that's not confident. That's more hopeful than anything. OK. Harley, who are you playing this week, mate? I haven't got it written down. We are away to Racing 92 in the Disco Dome, which, for all the Cardiff fans travelling out, I mean, at least it's going to be an experience. I can't... So, we're both buying for... We've both got a chance of finishing fourth in the pool. So, it's pretty much a winner takes all. It depends. If Ulster do a job on the Queen's, then, you know, it would be fighting for the Challenge Cup spot. So, I imagine, one, it's at home. Two, they've actually got something to play for. So, I can see Racing being quite loaded. So, I can't... Especially looking at some of the injury lists. So, we haven't got Belcher. Adam's still out. Can win it. Can win it. Yeah. So, I can't see anything more than just another battering, to be honest. Will you be able to... That would be great. I was going to say, will you be able to hold them to 50 this time, or will it get crazy? I hope so. It's how I'm feeling now. I'm not feeling very positive after that game. So, I'll get more shit from Cardiff supporters. I'm not positive enough on this and other podcasts, but... Bring it on, boys. Bring it on. Come on, let's see what you've got. Yeah, but, you know, it's like, we've had three wins all season, and none of them are in Europe. Like, my good boys only last so far. I mean, when it came out at the start of the season, well, not even the start of the season, end of last season, when you beat the Ospreys on Judgement Day, and then it was like, oh, you've won the Welsh Shield, which was great for about 10 minutes, and then somebody went, that means you're in the top level of the cup, you're in the Champions Cup. And it's like, ooh, ah, hmm. So, it's been a fair... You've been expecting it for a while, haven't you? Although, at least with the draw, we've got fun teams. So, at least the teams I like watching. So, that makes it slightly better. Okay. It's good fun. I would have liked one of the French teams to have actually come to Cardiff. Yeah. Because I've just not... It's like, I can go and see Bas and Quinns play pretty much regularly. It's a lot more effort to go see Toulouse or Rassen. Hmm. Maybe we'll save that one for next week, mate. Maybe we'll save that one for then. So, Ospreys travel... Well, what's left of the Ospreys, per se, travels down to South Africa. Are they playing in South Africa? Yeah, it's Lyons. Yeah, they're playing in Lyons. They're playing in Lyons. So, at altitude as well. Yeah. Just to finish off what's left of the squad. I mean... They could have done without this, couldn't they? Yes, on a Sunday 1pm. I feel sorry for the Ospreys. They're injured. This is just crippling. And the Dragons have been through it. We had 20 players, as I spoke about before at one point. They got 23. It's going to be really interesting to see their squad selection, isn't it? I do feel for them. You can see Toby Booth walking around Swansea going, anyone got a set of boots, boys? A set of boots and shorts? A set of boots and shorts? Are you doing anything this weekend, boys? What's that? Didn't the under-18s do better? Just a whole few of them, Ed. Hmm. I think... I can see some safeguarding issues there with sending under-18s against the South Africans back. Yes. Totally doing that. I mean, Scarlett's did at the start of the season. Scarlett's brought a couple of academy boys. But... Yes, it's... Yes, academy under-18s. I've got no sympathy for the Ospreys going out there. Don't get me wrong, because they've got no gratitude or empathy for anybody else when they're going through this. I think Scarlett's last year, at one point, we had 25 players out in a bigger squad, granted. But we had 25 players out at one point last season. And, yes, so... In fairness, though, half of them are players who you know get injured all the time and you re-sign anyway. That's up to you. You're making me feel like it's my fault. It is. It's all your fault. All of our fault. It's your fault. So, yes. What do we think of the score for Ospreys? I'm going Lions by 20, at least. Probably more, but at least 20. Jane? I'm going to go Lions by 18 on this one. It could be a tough afternoon for a very depleted Ospreys team. I hope they front up. But at least they don't have to win this game. That's the thing. Under no pressure, it's a free hit. Chuck some youngsters in, see what happens. I'm going to go for Lions by 18. Cool. It's just a bummer for them. They have to go to South Africa twice. They have no sympathy at all. Fuck them. Speaking of sympathy, Scarlett? Well, yes, we've got Edinburgh at home, which... I mean, we were talking about it last night. It's almost like this is... It's almost like pre-season for the second half of the season. There's nothing on it for us. It's a total tear-jerker. You've got no points whatsoever in your pool. So this game means nothing, does it? That's why it's a bit like a pre-season where you can throw some new people up. We're going to... When we talk about the squad in a minute, we need to magic some absurd halves up from somewhere and a couple of spare scrum offs because... Don't tick them. That is the one... No, no, no. I'll be saying both 9 and 10. He's doing all of it now. It's a bit like we've got to throw... We've got to hope that Dinky Jones is back to full fitness and he's been out... Yeah, he's been out all season and it's his first game back. So he's not going to play a full game whichever way you go. Titcom has actually been playing really well down in the Premiership. You've got Premiership straight up to Europe. But he did play very well against Leinster. He did. He's got a good head on his young shoulders. So, you know, fingers crossed. And then you've got Archie Hughes. Then you've got... It starts getting a bit squeaky after that. Might have to loan to him from one of the others. Well, I've got a feeling we'll probably take Harry Williams back. But anyway, that's... Yeah, it'll be a tough one. But I actually think it'll be quite a good game. I think it's one of those games that kind of says, well, you can throw the ball around. You can do different things. You can try other things. I hope we see Lousey. By all accounts, Lousey's having a bit of a strop and is telling us he's contracted to play X amount of games per season. Apparently. These are the rumours, if you believe what's on the internet. And if it's on the internet, it must be true. Scarlet Fever Forum. You'll be getting your information from there. Can I just say, the Scarlet Fever Forum is different to the Scarlet Fever Podcast. Nothing to do with us whatsoever. You probably should have picked a different name. Well, it's one of those things that, I'll be honest, not many people read the Scarlet Fever Forum unless they want to moan about stuff. So anyway, we were always going to be Scarlet Fever. Isn't that the same as the podcast? Of course. So yeah, Edinburgh on the weekend, Friday night. Get it over and done with. I just hope we get a good crowd. I think that's the key bit. And we've got a bonus pod coming out tomorrow as well with James and Sebastian, who's now obviously up at Edinburgh. Edinburgh, yeah. Yeah, and he talks a good game. He is a good game. I'm looking forward to that one, actually. He's very honest about stuff. It's only about half an hour long, and the signal's really dodgy for the first— that's why we can't put it on YouTube, because we all have to switch our cameras off in order to preserve the thing. So yeah, I'm going to be Scarlet by 10, 15. I think we will just go, do you know what, let's just attack everything. Let's just go and enjoy it. The only thing that might cock it up will be the weather because it's meant to be rough on Thursday and Friday. But I'm going to go Scarlet by 15, and hopefully more. I do disagree with you about saying we should just let it go. Actually, I think if you're using these younger players who aren't either Croft or the Wales squad, it's probably the perfect time for Peel to bed in what he wants them to play. While they're still fleshy-moulded, and say, this is what I want you to do. So they haven't got the hang-ups. You don't have to worry about Jonny Williams's weird twitch where he shoots out the line without worrying about whether or not the 30 is going to come in to close the gap. That's probably the right time. What I mean by that is that there's no pressure on that game. If you're playing Leinster at their last game of the season and you need a losing bonus point, then you play a very different game to Leinster at the first game of the season where you can throw the ball. It's one of those games where there's no pressure on it. So let's go and use it as a development tool. And I'm hoping the crowd do too. Because as much as people don't like it, people have started bringing drums to Scarlet's games. And I fucking love it. We need a bit of practice. And I keep saying to the boys that are doing it, come on the pod and we'll have a bit of practice and just tell people what to do. Because at the minute it's a bit of... And then nobody goes, Scarlet! They're all kind of going like, there's a guy playing the drums over there. Yeah, well done. And you kind of need to know what's happening. You need a group of people around the drum who are singing and leading it and then it just sort of spreads a bit further and further each time. Like I said, that's basically how it worked with Cardiff and the Cardiff Blues Brothers. It just sort of spread down the same direction. Yeah, you need to... And that's why I figured if you come on our podcast, at least there'd be a whole bunch of people and then you can listen back to it and we could call it like choir practice or drum practice or whatever. This is how we're going to do it. Anyway, that is this week's done. Let's get on to the Welsh squad announcement. So this is a reduced... Is this smaller than last year's squad? Yeah, it's a 34-man squad. So I think part of that is, part of the new professional agreement is Gatlin has to keep a much smaller squad than in the past. And also there should be more players being released during the following weeks. I think you've got to justify why he's keeping those players. So basically, if he's got plenty to keep training, then they should go back to the squad and they should go back during game weeks as well. But whether they'd have enough time to train and play, and it's not really that much of an issue because the URC doesn't play on game weeks. Okay. So a smaller squad, a tighter squad, the younger squad, a less experienced squad. Jamie, before we talk about the detail of it, just give me your overall kind of view of the squad. Well, I think it's a nod to the future, isn't it? And I think this is what we need to do now in Welsh rugby. We knew we had to rebuild at some stage. We knew we had to reset. And it's a squad that is riddled with injuries. We know that. But it is a lot of young talent in there. You've got the likes of Ever Lloyd in there, Archie Griffin, Mackenzie Martin, Alex Mannan, Cam Winnett. So there's a lot of exciting young talent in this squad. In terms of the campaign coming up, yes, it's going to be difficult for Wales. I think we are going to struggle in this tournament, but we are going to have to go through some pain now to reap the rewards in the future. Because how many times have we said as Welsh rugby fans, Gatlin's picking the same old faces, same old players, he's picking his favourites. And when we start bringing youth through now, I've seen on social media today, people are moaning about that. And it's like, well, you know, you can't have it both ways. You can't moan about Gatlin picking his favourites. And then when we are trying to bring through the youth, you can't moan about that either, you know. The time is now to rebuild. So yes, it does lack depth. It does lack experience. It is quite raw in certain places. The biggest concern for me personally is tight head. So I was really surprised there was no Thomas Francis. I expected him to be there. No Henry Thomas. Remember all the big hoo-ha from Henry Thomas coming in? Who was signed for Cass this evening as well, I've just seen. Yeah, which would make him ineligible. And I don't think he played. I don't remember seeing him on any Montpellier team sheets since the World Cup really. So that's an interesting development. That was one reason why I was excited. He wasn't playing enough. And he said he's had words with Thomas Francis about this. So I think the idea is he's given him a couple of, a year or so off to enjoy the Prodigy. They might bring him in, in case of emergency. Yeah. But for me, I think tight head, that is the one area I do have a concern because Leon Brown is there. I'm not surprised that Leon has been called up. Yes, he's missed a lot of this season. He has conceded a few penalties when he has played for the Dragons. But let's not forget that Gatland loves Leon Brown. He's a big fan of Leon. He's on 23 caps. So it is expected he's going to need Dragons. He just needs two caps. That'll make him eligible to play for Wales if he does leave to go to Bristol. So I guess that's the thinking there. I'm guessing Kieran Aserati is probably going to be first choice for Wales out of the tight head options. I am surprised about the Bath. Archie Griffith. I didn't see that coming. I understand he hasn't had that many games for Bath. He's third choice, isn't he, I think. So he hasn't had that many opportunities. But when he has played, apparently he has impressed. The Welsh management have been tracking him for some time. But yes, my greatest concern is tight head. But I have to say I am pleased for David Jenkins as well. So he's the youngest ever captain of a men's Wales squad. And that's totally deserved. And I said a few times on social media, he's a future Wales captain. He's been absolutely outstanding for Exeter. He's a natural leader, really good player. And that begs the question now, doesn't it? So we know he's captain, which means he's probably going to start. Obviously start alongside. Is he going to be Will Rowland? Is he going to be Adam Beard? I'm interested to see how he's playing out. But on the whole, yes, you look at the squad, it's a nod to the future. It's a change in the guard. There's so many players up with injury, isn't there? The Ospreys have only got four players in. Is it four or five players they've got? Four. Four players. So obviously if they had more players fit, they would have a higher representation. But this campaign could be a very difficult one for Wales, I would say, looking at that squad. OK. So, Harley, your overview? So, yeah, I mean, despite being the Cardiff fan, I mean, some of the things I've said on the pod might question that, but I'm surprised how many Cardiff players are in. Until you account for just how many injuries there are, particularly in the Ospreys. So if you think of the players who aren't available for the Ospreys, there's no Jack Morgan, there's no... I said Rhys Davies is sort of iffy, Nicky Smith's out. I mean, if you're not going to have Tom Francis, then it leaves a spot. Owen Williams is a questionable fitness. Reuben Morgan-Williams, who, you know, a lot of people, for me, quite rightly think he's been one of the better performing scrimmages in Wales at the moment. You know, there's no cuff, but it's... And I think Warren Gatland's weight just needed an excuse to get rid of Kieran Williams out of the pecking order before the World Cup. I think pretty much all of us agree with that, because that penalty he conceded was not his fault, and he basically... Gatland used that as a baton to hoist him up or hoist him on. It's weird. I said I agree the tight head issue's weird, but, you know, in Gatland's same year, some of the highlights were, like, I want a more mobile tight five, which is probably where, you know, Thomas Francis loses out a little bit in the past. No Gillian Lewis, you know, his selection, I think, because Gatland, obviously, if he's only picking three tight heads, he wants two for training, which means he's only got one England qualified, so I think, you know, it's an excuse to look at Archie Hughes. Yeah, I'm a bit surprised. When he was talking about fullbacks, he mentioned Lewis Rees-Hammott, but he didn't mention Josh Adams, even though I'd say he's probably played more than any of them. The 10s, I find quite weird to have... Not necessarily the players themselves, but Costello, obviously, I think we all knew he was going to be his first choice, and then Eoghan Lloyd and Clarevin, so I think most people would consider probably more fullback who can play 10, as opposed to 10s in their own right. That's quite weird with all the different names they said. I thought Ben Thomas might have snuck in, but looking at the centres, he's clearly picked certain types for his 12s and 13s, and I think Gatland made it very clear he wants Ben Thomas to play 10, and he's not been doing that at Cardiff, so... Yeah, I mean, with an average age of under 25, we've got some of Hugh... Again, Hugh Flatcaps, or Catboy. Catboy! Yeah, so 10 players have almost three quarters of all the cats. Only 12 of the 34 players of 25. I said there's four uncapped players, sorry, five uncapped players, other than Archie Kews, who's in Bristol and Bath. The other four are all Cardiff, which is just weird, and I've never known a card... Since I've been really into my rugby, I've never known that happen in a squad. But I can justify pretty much all those players. Can I just correct you on Archie Griffin and Archie Hughes? Very different players. Archie Griffin, yes. I wouldn't be putting Archie Hughes in a prop. He's got a bit of dog about him, but I don't think he's quite there yet. I said, if he's too small to be a scrimmage, he's definitely too small for a prop. Yeah, sorry, that's me mid-rant there. It's a really bizarre one, I said, but as soon as you start thinking about... Well, Thomas Francis playing in the Pro League, Henry Thomas hasn't played and is now technically ineligible because he's signed for Cass. Dylan Lewis is only on the bench. If you want to bring in this extra... If you're having a smaller squad, you've got to keep the Wales-based players so you've got more training. And then with Ospreay's ridiculous amount of injuries, it does all add up to this sort of squad makeup, because it's almost who's left. Yeah, Ospreay's only got four, but they would have had far more players if they didn't have their injury issues. So Ospreay's got four. You'd imagine... You'd pretty much have to invert what's happened if injuries weren't an issue. They would have dominated the squad, Ospreay's, if they didn't have so many injuries, I believe. So you've got Ospreay's four, you've got Cardiff 11, Scarlett's eight, which I'm a bit surprised at. I'm surprised the Dragons got six, to be brutally honest with you. I am surprised we've got six players. And then you've got five players playing outside of Wales. So that's the makeup there of the players. So the bit for me is, it's quite obviously a more mobile pack than what we've been used to. And there is a bit more creativity in the back line than what we've been used to. To me, it's that this is how we're going to play the game in the next four years. He's chosen a more expansive, mobile, dynamic kind of game. He's very good at going, here's the blueprint. Here are 25 players that fit in that blueprint. And here's another five players that I can make fit that blueprint. And I think that's what we see. I think David Jenkins, as captain, like you said, Jim, when we were talking about who was going to be captain for the World Cup, we mentioned him a couple of times and we just said, he might be a bit too young. But it'd be interesting to see what happens now when Jack Morgan comes back in. And Derry Lake. I wouldn't be surprised to say, forget them to say, actually, no, Dav Jenkins stays as captain and due to a part of the senior leadership team or whatever, but he's my captain. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah, I can see where we're going with it. Personally, I like the look of that because a lot of that back row are open sides who happen to play blind sides sort of thing. You know, they can play both sides of the scrum. So I like that in a back row. Or, you know, more seven, eights. We do have one out and out blind side. Yeah, there's a mobility there that for me works better when you're playing a mobile pack. I am a bit pissed off with the fact that we've got two scrum arse and two outside arse in from Scarlett. No, you've got two scrum arse, a fly arse and a full back. Well, yeah, I mean, whether you class Yeoman Lloyd as an outside arse or a full back, whether you then class Tom Rodgers as a wing or a full back, you know. Personally, I didn't see Tom Rodgers being in this at all. I didn't think Hardy would be in there. And I think firing injuries in the NFL, I don't think those would have been in, in all honesty. I'm looking forward to seeing a back line that's got Joe Roberts and Nick Tomkins in, genuinely. I think that will just confuse the fuck out of everyone. Possibly their own people, definitely the referee, definitely the opposition. So I think that'll be an interesting one. If you then put, say, for example, you've then got Yeoman Lloyd, Thomas Williams, Yeoman Lloyd, Nick Tomkins, Joe Roberts, that's like putting a box of frogs over hot coals. That's just going to be insane, that is. That does sound like what's going to end up being the Italy back line. Yeoman Lloyd at 10 makes me, makes me, I don't like it. Also, I'm not, when we saw it pre-World Cup, I didn't quite like, I thought we were a bit underpowered with Nick Tomkins, Joe Roberts. I'd much rather have someone else at 12. But then really the only 12 you've got is Owen Watkins and that doesn't really, to me that doesn't give you what I think you need. Yeah. But I, again, like you, I'm very glad Joe Roberts is in because I'm a huge fan. You just need somebody inside him that's going to... Yeah, I feel, I think he does need that, that more bosh, you know, like the way we've been playing this, we've had Nick Tomkins, who's a bit more of a distributor, a bit more of a playmaker, although he can sort of carry. And then we've had an out-and-out bosher outside. Yeah. Because I feel with Joe Roberts at 13, you need the bosher, you know, I feel like you need someone who's going to carry hard. Yeah. I don't know whether or not Gatton sees North or Grady or someone moving it. Can you imagine putting George North at 12? I could see it. Can I just say though... Yeah. Can I just say the one player I am happy to see included in this squad is James Beaufour, because I'm a big fan of his and I felt he should have had far more Wales involvement. I know he's had a few injuries, but this is a guy that can play across the back row, so I'm really pleased to see him. I know there was a lot of conversation about Thomas Young, but for some reason we know Gatton doesn't like Thomas Young. I think he... I'm a big fan of Thomas Young, he's terrific, but for some reason Gatton just doesn't fancy him, so I'm really pleased to see James Beaufour. Nicky Smith, not again, I'm looking again. Yes, I know he's totally injured, but you would have expected him to play some part in the Six Nations. And it's really weird to see now a Wales squad that doesn't have to be far to win it. Yes, again, I know he's injured, so they must have looked at Toopie and realised he's not available for any of the games because in the past he would have been a dead shirt regardless of whether he'd been available for all the games or not, even if just available for one or two. Toopie Farlow would always be there, and it's just really strange now looking at the Wales squad and not seeing Toopie there. So, I mean, like you said earlier, if we're going to make changes, now's the time to make changes. We're going to bring in fresh talent, and part of that is having an educated Oh, I didn't share the screen. That bollocks. I could have shared the screen. I was wondering where you were going to put it. This is why I was getting Archie Hughes and Archie Griffin, because I can't see the whole thing. My point was going to be is having people understanding what's going on, having an educated public, and I think Gatlin needs to come out and say, you know, this is what we're doing. This is the plan. Don't worry. Don't worry. It might not all be perfect, but he needs to start talking about performance. He needs to start talking about development. He needs to start talking about, you know, growing the game and not necessarily winning. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, Toopie, it shows how short people's memories are, because this is exactly what you were saying, first of all, cut, please. He's saying, I'm probably going to rest Falmouth out this year. I've spoken to Lupe and said, you just focus on getting 100% right. And if you're ready to go and do one last line in the store, you think you can make it to the World Cup. Because I think Falatau is a player who, if fully fit at 35, he probably could still be one of the best eights in the world. Absolutely. You know, but, you know, part of the problem we've had with some of these players, it happened with Warburton, it happened with Navidius, it happened with Falatau, it happened to accept Tiprek, not so much Tiprek, because he didn't ever really have those big injuries until the one that pretty much put him out, is as soon as they could physically go on a rugby pitch, they were chucked back in at top level and then they'd break again. So I think actually it's quite good that Gatland's saying, do you know what, we're going to take the hurt, we're going to take the hurt of this six nation that's going to be developmental and we're going to rest on these big names and be doing the same thing with Thomas Francis, because Gatland will gain nothing by playing Thomas Francis. Hmm. By seeing what Azarati can do, seeing if he can get Brown fit enough to do a campaign, looking at this new guy, that will benefit this four year cycle far more than playing Henry Thomas who, let's be fair, is probably a bit more of a dream, he'd probably only have a season or two at top level anyway. Dylan Lewis, we know what he can do, but he's now playing second fiddle at Quinns, although it never really stopped him when, and it never stopped Gatland picking Francis when he was second at Exeter, but that's by the by. He knows what he can do, let's bring some of these new ones in, he's got experienced hands like Gareth Davies and George Knopf who he genuinely thinks have a shot at being at the next World Cup. So, you know, that's one thing. The other thing is, as I said, because of the new funding rules, the squad has to be smaller, so you can't carry as many injured players. So if Leon Brown isn't quite 100%, you can't, you know, he hasn't got the option of having the full thing, so he's confident there. Camp, you know, we already know Cam Winnick probably isn't going to be available until the third week. You know, so that's one name off, you can't really hold in a second, you know, injured players, you know. But the joy is, you've got Ewan Lloyd and Harry Evans as main fullbacks, Josh Adams can count that, so we've got enough, you know, with Mason Grady playing wing and 13. You know, you can sort of cover that. So you can't really go say, oh, well, you know, Hallertown might be fit for the last couple of weeks. But we don't really have the depth, you know, we don't have covering the back row, because we're bringing in Alex Mann, new cap, Mackenzie Martin, new cap, both very young players. We're bringing James Botham in from the Colts, who, you know, probably saw that Jack Morgan can cover the whole back row, and are similar players. I'm not going to try and say that Botham is a better player than Jack Morgan. But, you know, if you look at how they play the game, they are quite similar in how they go about it. They're very abrasive, they're good over the ball, they tackle really well, and they're actually very good in tight carries, and surprisingly good out wide. OK, so we're nearing the end. So I'm going to ask you for one name each, OK, of a player from the current squad, who, at the end of the Six Nations, you're going to go, Oh my God. Yeah, that was, no wonder they were in the squad. So, pick any one of those players there. Can you see the screen now? Have I shared the right screen? Right, OK. So, you get to pick one of those players, and you go, wow, I wasn't expecting that. That's been a real breakthrough for them. So, Harley, you're first, mate. I think the one, I mean, the one you kind of have, it has to work this well, is probably Archie Griffith. OK. Because we need that depth of play. If he's come out of the blue, he needs to stand out. Everyone else, we sort of all have an idea what they're about. OK. Jayne, your breakthrough player prediction? If he's given the opportunity, I'm going to say he can win it. Because what's really impressed me with Cameron is how calm and cool and composed he is, especially under the high ball. He never looks flustered, and I've been really, really impressed with him. I think he's an outstanding talent, and I'm interested to see. He may not get much game time during this tournament, I don't know. I suspect he might go with Kyan as a full-back, but if he is given the opportunity, I do think Cameron can step up and show his class. But that's the challenge, isn't it? It's all very well doing it club level, you will see, because his kids come into the national set-up and transfer in a good form. But for me, I definitely could be keeping an eye on Cameron, because I think he's a very talented young man. OK. For me, I think the player that I'm most looking forward to seeing is Alex Mann. I've been really, really impressed with him with Cardiff so far this year. And I think if he takes anything up to that top level, and by the looks of him, I think he can, I think he's going to be our next... You know, he's solid at six. He's definitely on the paper at six. And he throws a whole load of issues into your back row. But I think he's the player that I'm most looking forward to seeing. And I think we'll do well with him. So... I'm sorry, do you want to pick a Cardiff player? Well, I'm just going to... I'm going to do one now from... If I was an Osprey, I'd be looking at that squad, and I'd go the player I'm most expecting most from this season will be Nicky Smith. So on that note, gents, we are done for the evening. And I will catch up with you all again next week. Have a good one. Enjoy it, gents. All the best. Ta-ra. Take care. Bye now. Thank you for listening to The Wrap Podcast. We hope you enjoyed listening as much as we enjoyed recording it. Please do rate us and tell your friends as it really helps us to grow and get better. We'll be back next week for more of the same. And until then, enjoy your rugby.
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