Dragons Li with Sam Larner

The Dragon's Lair podcast welcomes guest Sam Larner to discuss the upcoming Dragons vs Arjen game. They also mention the sad news of former Dragons captain Andrew Coombs being diagnosed with dementia and his legal claim against rugby governing bodies. The hosts and Sam discuss the risks of playing rugby and the need for better player safety protocols. They also talk about the performances of Welsh rugby regions in the URC and how they are all struggling, with any team capable of beating the others. Welcome to the Dragon's Lair. Hello and welcome to the Dragon's Lair podcast, your home of all things Dragons, RFC and Rugby in the Region. I'm Jamie and joining me as always is my co-host Gavin Thomas. How are we Gav? Yes I'm very well thank you Jamie. The evening hasn't thrown me completely. I've still remembered the key facts. Dragons aren't very good and we haven't won for a while. Yep that's all you need to know really. Unfortunately that's where we are isn't it. So you can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and the Sports Social Network and we have another special guest with us tonight Gav. So anyone who follows him on X, formerly known as Twitter, will be aware of his very informative and fun threads. He recently did a thread on comparing rugby coverage to Strictly Come Dancing, which I'm not going to lie was my personal favourite because I love rugby and I love Strictly so he combined the two worlds wonderfully there. He has provided analysis to multiple clubs in the UK and abroad and has also coached at youth and senior levels and he's here tonight to help us preview the Dragons versus Arjen again this weekend. So without further ado, welcome to the pod Sam Larner. How are we Sam? Oh very well thank you Jamie. That was a lovely intro. Thank you very much. I had that prepared a couple of days ago so I hope that's okay for it. I wanted to give you a big intro Sam. Yes it's set the expectations too high if anything but thank you very much. No it's nice to have you with us. Someone who actually knows what they're talking about Gav isn't it? That'd be quite nice. Yes absolutely yes and also a man who did the cup draws for the Sussex RFU Cups this season as well so he's a man of many talents. Yeah I love doing the cup draw. I fell just short of getting an actual velvet bag but aside from that it was what I was aiming for. Lovely stuff. Okay then so let's get into it. Now before we do talk about the Dragons arena preview I just want to mention a bit of news. There's sad news that happened this week. So former Dragons captain Andrew Coombs has revealed he's been diagnosed with dementia and probable CTE at the age of just 39. Coombs is one of 295 retired rugby union players who have brought a legal claim against three of the sport's governing bodies alleging they sustained brain injuries during their careers. The former Dragons back row or lock I should say who won the Six Nations with Wales in 2013 issued a lengthy statement on social media. I'm not going to read all the statement because it is available for anyone who wants to read it but he did say that whilst I am devastated by my diagnosis my spirit remains strong and in a strange way the diagnosis has brought relief and clarity as it has provided answers to many of my questions. I'm trying to be myself as much as possible enjoying life to the fullest not allowing my condition to destroy my mental health. So yeah pretty devastating diagnosis there. We do send Andrew and his family his best wishes from the pod. It's a really sad news and I'd just like to get your thoughts on that Sam and you know the legal case that's going on it's really building so a lot of players now coming forward. What do you make of it all? Yeah I think it's incredibly sad when you when you hear something like that from Andrew and obviously from a number of players you know Steve Thompson probably the one who's been involved in this for the longest maybe. It's always incredibly sad when you see it on that personal level. I think as well a different issue but you know there's a discussion about whether there's a possible link there with Kevin Sinfield running for Moti Neuron as well. You kind of forget that a lot of this stuff is part of the game now really which is which is incredibly sad and I think that you know whether you agree with the legal case or not and I think on balance I would. One of the things that you probably have to admit is that while it may be that back when you know Gav started playing which I think was just before Webb Ellis picked up the ball but back then you know whilst you may have accepted that you were going to a game where you could have got injuries, you could have got concussion, you could have got broken bones and that kind of thing. I think the idea that you knew that you were going to get or that there was a chance you could get a dementia diagnosis before 40 I think no one can claim that you knew the risks of that happening. Realistically if you knew that people wouldn't do it would they? Yeah you know it's if we were told there is a fair chance you will develop early onset dementia and significant brain injuries people would think seriously about it you know particularly considering how poorly paid it is in comparison to other sports. Yeah absolutely I wonder whether that's going to see a bit of a Yeah absolutely I wonder whether that's going to see a bit of a talent drain away because there's certain things that we're doing better now you know lower tackles I think fewer or less contact there was a big discussion about this when I first started getting involved in dividing kind of in I guess 2012 or so with people saying that it's not possible to do less contact in training because you know the players just won't be prepared. I think what you'll see now is clubs doing very little contact during the week or very little I guess bone-on-bone contacts maybe some some light you know wrestling or hitting bags or that kind of thing and so there's certain changes being made and I think it is safer than it was when Coombs first started playing but you know it's still a dangerous sport and you know I do think if you're a pair then you'd certainly be thinking twice about whether you wanted your kids involved. Yeah my youngest plays and there is always that fear where when you go out and you play rugby you know and I still play as well and there is always that fear that you're going to come away with something really quite significant. Yeah yeah I think we've always accepted that to a point we've always accepted that there's a risk that you can break a leg you know we if you play enough rugby even if it's just five or six games you'll you'll play with someone who's done something like that you know twisting ankle, breaking ankle, doing something to the finger that kind of thing but yeah realistically the idea of serious long-term playing injury is not was not brought up certainly when I first started playing. And I don't think it was ever treated seriously either which is the other issue you know kind of I'm lucky I've generally played for clubs that actually take a level of care over it but I speak to other people who have been oh I'll be fine just get yourself back on and don't really know what's going on you know kind of have seriously concussed themselves. Yeah and I still say now I played a couple of years ago against a team someone got concussed I didn't see it but I was told it happened for for them they either claim not to have seen it or or actually genuinely didn't see it and he was he was back playing we basically said look you have to take him off because one of our players or a couple of our players are seeing him get knocked out and eventually they did but they probably let him play for a good 15 minutes before they did that and I don't think that's uncommon I think that's probably fairly standard. No and I think the lower you go down the the tiers the more standard it becomes really as well. Yeah yeah we had Adam Hughes on a couple of weeks ago didn't we Dafo we spoke in depth about this because he had to retire from the game at the age of 28 and yeah it's just very very sad you know Coombs is not the first unfortunately he's not gonna be the last we're gonna see more of this unfortunately. You see the names on that list Gavin Henson, Colin Chalmers, Harry Ellis, you know international rugby players they're saying I think this has seriously affected my life. Yeah yeah yeah it's very sad so as I said we wish Andrew Coombs and his family all the very best for that. Okay so we're heading into Europe now this weekend the first block of the URC is done Dragons are bottom of the league thanks to the Scarlets winning at Cardiff. Sam I know you're happy about that but I'm not to be quite honest with you. Just want to get your thoughts about the Welsh regions as a whole what have you made of their performances in this tricky first block what are the takeaways from you? Yes it's an interesting one really because obviously I'm a Scarlets fan so I was happy that we beat Cardiff however had we not been Cardiff then you look at the the table and you go actually Cardiff are looking a decent side you know potentially pushing to to the playoffs whereas the kind of the dogfight that's happening in in the Welsh regions means that we're all kind of pulling each other down really and so there's there's unless something seriously different changes it looks like any of us could beat any of the other regions and maybe Zebra and Sharks and you know possibly a few others if they have a bad day but because of that you're going to struggle to have one team pull away and I'm not sure how I feel about that I do I genuinely would think although I'm a Scarlets fan every other Welsh region would probably be my second team really and so I like the idea of a Welsh region doing well yeah ideally it would be the Scarlets but I think on balance it's probably more likely to be Cardiff this year but it's not I don't think it's going to happen really because there's the main competition is between the Welsh regions and a couple of other sides so I think it has been disappointing I think there's there's some reason to be optimistic I think performances have improved since the World Cup players have come back I think as well there's a few injuries you know during the rounds I mean the Dragons have obviously been hit and the Scarlets did their South Africa tour at the start of the year Dragons obviously have just done theirs so those are games that realistically there was never going to be any hope of winning I think what will be frustrating for the Dragons is that you know one try away from coming away with that with at least a point which which might have happened you know which might well have helped so I've been obviously from a Scarlets perspective I've been really impressed with Jürgen Lloyd I think he was really impressive interesting to see what happens when Sam Costello comes back and what he ends up doing I think from a Dragons perspective so Bradley Roberts has been really impressive for me yeah yeah I think possibly he was the it's quite an interesting career trajectory from him because he was the hooker that no one really knew about when he when he was brought into the Welsh setup and now he's he's in Wales and perhaps he's back under the radar again and he you know could find himself back I think with Roberts he found himself tarred with that brush when Wayne Peavatt was selecting anyone yeah that's you know anyone Sam Wainwright is a great example just randomly picking names out of a hat yeah but and I've always been anti Bradley Roberts but I agree with you I think he's been one of our stronger players this season so far yeah and interesting on uh on him he is made the third most tackles of any uh of any hooker um in the ULC this year uh and a high tackle success late 90% he's good at his game line success he's made 21 carries uh successfully over the game line so he looks a bit more like that that complete hooker that we're starting to see the kind of the uh the Tom Stewart the Joey Matthews I mean they're you know perhaps slightly more superstar but um but he's starting to develop those other parts to his to his game I think and so I would certainly I expect to see him in the conversation for Wales come come the successions hooker is a tricky position though isn't it because you've got uh Dewey Lake you have Ryan Elias you have Elliot Dee you have Bradley Roberts you have uh Sam Parry you know there's there's lots of players there yeah yeah and I think as well it's a hard one to to differentiate yourself from anyone else so the first thing you got to do is hit hit your line outs but as you probably all know it's not as easy as you know the person who has 90% is also necessarily the best it might be that their line callers doing them a favour it might be that they're throwing to the front of the line out all the time which isn't a particularly good attacking opportunity so um that's the kind of thing that I think often gets lost really the the idea that you know it's not always the case that the best line out success uh is necessarily the best line out um but I do think that if you took all of those players into a into a hat um and if you look at someone like Ryan Elias I thought he was fairly impressive on his debut or not debuts his first of the season or first game back of the season you know two weeks ago forget who that was games um last place maybe when scouts were well beaten but he I thought he was fairly impressive um and so I think that he maybe is a standout but really I don't think there's a huge amount between between anyone there um and it'd be interesting to see who else uh gets picked from the dragons I think you know Leo Dyer's fairly well um fairly well in there I think um but then there's there's someone like you know Matthew Screech who's been he's been in the conversation for seemingly 50 years uh and you know he's never really made the breakthrough I wonder whether he might have a shot and then you know Alan Wayne that looks like a a complete player really yeah in terms of uh the dragons players then and he's talking about Bradley Roberts that say how do they compare generally generally to the other Welsh hookers yeah so that's a good question so um if we have a look at this so I think he's going to be at the top in terms of tackling um he uh actually no so Liam Belcher's at the top uh who I would say probably is not in the running for Wales um if we look at line outflows so uh he's lost 12 of 79 um which is not great uh it's not it's not terrible compare that though to someone like um LHD uh 1 of 13 um and Ryan Elias 7 of 34 he's lost so you know compared to them it's not it's not terrible um the the others haven't played a huge amount so I think one of the things that Bradley Roberts will probably have to work on is either he turns himself into a turnover machine um or he turns himself into a a proper ball carrier he's done well in terms he's got three offloads this year which is more than anywhere else he's got more contact meters than any of the other hookers um and uh he's got more meters made than any of the other hookers so he's looking more like being one of those back row come hooker types who can carry a fair amount um so I'd be I think it'd be interesting to see him giving a go I think he's a better player than he was when he was selected a few I totally agree with that so a big thing that said lots of Dragons fans and we've had on the parties why do they kick it so bloody much so what is the value of kicking it so bloody much Sam yes well uh it's a very interesting point because um one of the one of the things you'll see is that and I think uh in fact Eddie Jones put this probably better than anyone has in uh Japan's playbook uh backing when he started I think that was 2013 maybe so there's a line in in the in Japan's playbook that just says um we want to keep the ball in hand but if we don't kick it we defend we attack a 15 man defensive line uh and I do just think you could put that on a t-shirt and just copy and paste that to to Jonathan Davis every time he he bands on about it on um you know the fact is you you have to kick otherwise you just lung at a brick wall you see someone like Exeter when they played um was it Toulouse in Europe in the in the quarterfinals or semi-finals last year whoever it was it was you know they got well beaten and they kicked something like eight times and you saw that it they weren't particularly exciting they were just lunging at a French wall that wasn't letting them through um and so you have to kick otherwise you just defend if was you just lung against 15 men but also there's very little value to having the ball in your own half so something like possession has no bearing on on overall success what does matter is um getting 22 entries and stopping the other opponent from getting 22 entries so if you're just over playing in your own half which the Scarletts have definitely been guilty of and Scotland and Italy hugely guilty of in the in the world cup what you end up with is a ton of possession and absolutely nothing for it and as soon as you turn over you're more likely to give away penalties and kicks a goal yeah and it's the weather as well sometimes the weather doesn't allow a free-forward expansive you know attack in this is sometimes it's better to kick the territory and release that pressure and um you know I know we've had this competition so many times Gavin we on the podcast we always get dragons fancy we kick it too much why do we kick it but I've always said kicking is not the issue it's the execution of it if you kick well and we play a very good territorial game it works very very well you see you know all blacks and springboks and fancy they all kick a lot of ball away but um the problem with us is sometimes well a lot of the time we don't kick well it's the execution is the problem and with somebody like was one of the best kick chasers in the game for me currently yeah you know we should be kicking get him underneath the ball and force the defense to deal with it absolutely it's a really interesting one because I'm looking at playing style at the moment and one of the elements of of that is um the percentage of a team's total meters that come from callies so um I think the average is about 35 percent the dragons are at 28 which is the third lowest in the URC now they're not in particularly good company down there so you've got the ospreys also at 28 percent and zebra at 26 percent but the third team on 28 percent are bengaton who are having one of probably their best ever season um and a lot of that is they've gone incredibly pragmatic um and they've chosen basically to kick anything away that that where there's no value to to keep and hold the possession um and so I think there's a lot to be said for for you know kicking getting rid of the pressure there's no point in in putting that pressure on yourself um and I guess just for just the kind of completeness um the dragons last year made it kind of dalliance away from from being a very pragmatic team they were about average in terms of their attack this year they've reverted to how they were in 2021 to 2022 um so what it looks like is that uh guy kind of gave them a slight nudging a bit more of a of an aggressive uh attacking way last year realized it hasn't worked and has nudged them back uh towards a bit more of a pragmatic kick it away team uh which you could argue also hasn't worked but you know it's clear that there is some changes being made there what is the style for the dragons what style success you know if we try to go to attacking like we're doing at minute we make a lot of errors which I'm going to ask you about later and we haven't we can't play a power game because we haven't got the forwards to do that so it's really hard to know it's to me at the moment what dragons are trying to do is what pat lamberston was still so two three years ago very high tempo attacking game the problem is I don't think the dragons have got a skill set yeah the to carry off that the game that game plan and they're making a lot of errors but let's speak about that now this time because I've been thinking about this a lot now for the past couple of days where the dragons are making errors every single game this season even against the ospreys we beat the ospreys but they were down to 13 and we made hard work of that we keep making basic errors every game knocking the ball on and looking for the miracle pass poor discipline being really corny you know die flaggers talk about accuracy a lot this season and he did so after the lions game we're not accurate you know we need to improve our accuracy in the red zone and all this when a team keeps making the same errors game after game what is that down to do you think so is it the players is it the coaching or is there a bit of both I understand this is a nuanced question it's no easy answer but what do you think it is when a team keeps making the same errors week in week out yes I do think it's probably a combination of a few things I think uh I forget who it was um I know it might be a football manager actually someone on the weekend basically said that the issue is that the actually was um uh Dan McFarland at Ulster he said that the the um attention to detail in training wasn't isn't good enough and so I think that's a big part of it is it's what you what you walk past so I think what will be tempting at a team like Dragons and Zedler where you don't have the quality is to go yeah that's close enough like that'll do that that standard and so it's easy to then walk past it and go that's fine like we'll move on to something else and then in a game you get the additional pressure put on you and that's when you realize that that the standards you set in training are too low and that you're you're making mistakes I think one of the you know we talked about that about kicking one of the issues you've got is that you can't solve everything so you you can't solve handling one week and then the lying out the next week and then the scrum the week after because these finishes take too long and also it's it's obvious the requirement of just making players a lot better which is not an overnight thing and so I think what what they will have to do is either I guess you can do two things either you just pull back the game plan which it seems like they kind of have done to a certain extent and say look we're just going to kick we're not going to put ourselves under huge pressure anywhere in our half we're just going to kick the ball away and our focus is going to be on the defense and taking the ball you're stealing the ball and creating opportunities or you say look let's just go wild let's go kind of barbarian style swing the ball around no care about the consequences we'll have fun and maybe we'll pick up a few wings and I think you have to go one of those two ways what you probably can't do is go let's play like Lancaster or let's play that style because I just don't think it's going to work but I do think I think partly it's the players I think that that if you look at the Dragons team and it's it's sad really because there's there is talent in there there's individual players of talent we've always talked about Bradley Roberts, Alan Wainwright, you know Dodger Williams has been really good this year but you look at those players and you go they are talented but across the board is there the 23 who would make many other teams you know if you did your 15 v 15 and worked out who combined 15 I don't think there are many and so and to be honest that's been a long-running Dragons issue is having that consistency across the doors and so I think it's probably a little bit of both really probably a little bit of coaches letting stuff slide a little bit of players just not being up to standards yeah no that's fair enough it's interesting you mentioned the training there I don't know if you follow the Dragons on X and social media they put out a lot of videos of them training compared to other clubs and it's almost like they're saying look we're not winning games but look how hard we're training yeah I mean for me personally I think it's really dull content seeing you know Oliver Fisk pumped by and Joe Davis running into tackle bags to me I don't find that interesting content but to me well to my you know an expert opinion it looks like they're working hard in training and Dave Flanagan has talked about yeah we've prepared well and you know look how well he was talking about Dan Lyddiard and Brodie Coughlin apparently nearly scrapping in training he's talking about intensity but it doesn't translate onto the field yeah you know when you see him work hard on training so it's strange isn't it you're just mentioning the training there maybe they're not training hard enough but then you know to me it looks like they are training I don't know I think some of it is not good but good enough and that's the way they're focusing on and a lot of the basic errors that are happening are because they aren't focusing enough on just getting those basics right it's all I'll be fine I'll be fine I'll be fine but just the way they set up in defence of rucks just the way they set up in defence of kicks the way they react to counter attacks none of that's good enough and that's why we're in the position we're in yeah and I think that's ultimately it isn't it really is that the the decisive of what's good enough is what happens on the pitch and as soon as you're you know when you've won one game out of seven six or seven yeah yeah when you've done that that there's not really the team I think we probably agree is not at the standard of the teams who will be in the playoffs no but I also think you would it'd be hard to just say that it's significantly worse than than Zebla, than Cardiff, than Scarlet, than Ospreys you know I you you could make the case that just on paper the Dragons could finish anywhere between you know like 7th and and 16th or 9th and 16th and realistically they're going to finish 16th yeah potentially so I think that there's clearly there's clearly a lack of something's not happening in training and it's probably not probably not that they're not working hard enough it may be that they're not working on the right things like maybe that they're walking by stuff that is not good enough and they're going yeah that'll do the methods isn't it you're talking about training methods perhaps okay yeah one of the comments I constantly get on social media and speaking to friends and family where we have a chat about the Dragons they always say to me well I don't understand it we've got a good team on paper honestly if I had if I had a quiz for every time I heard somebody say oh we've got a good team on paper yeah but of course it just doesn't translate and the problem is we do have a lot of injuries at the moment you know we have got 16 players out we've always had a paper thin squad we've always operated on low budget so you start taking key individuals out of that team and all of a sudden you are left with you know I'm not going to name the players obviously but you're left with what me and Gav has described as post-premiership standard players Gav would you agree with that oh no absolutely I do that's our problem once you get beyond our first 20 you are into guys who would be very good premiership players yeah yeah well a good thing here is that the Dragons this year alone have used 40 players so who have played at least some minutes and most of them have played at least kind of 20 minutes 40 players in seven matches is concerning because that work that Dragons team it is the kind of one that I think I think we've probably always felt this about teams like you know Bristol maybe that if you if you put the best 15 out they should be everyone and I don't think that's quite true the Dragons but if you put the best 15 out very competitive yeah but by the time we get to the 40th player that as you say that is premiership level and you know Welsh premiership level rather than English premiership level and I think that that is a that's the big issue you know a team like Leinster their 40th player probably would improve the Dragons and I think that's probably quite a damning indictment really well yeah you look at Leinster and they've you know they've got 20 old guys in the Ireland squad yeah and I don't think we've got 20 old guys who are good enough to play in the URC never mind playing the national rugby yeah but before the season started when people started making their predictions Dragons were tipped by a lot of people a lot of pundits to have a relatively decent season only because if you looked at what happened at the other three teams they had to make massive cuts to their playing budget whereas Dragons always operated on a smaller budget so we didn't have to you know cut our squad as drastically we didn't have the chaos of a team like Cardiff for example though if you look back on Cardiff a few months ago they hardly had any coaches they hardly had any players and yet I think there's some great shoots there and they're having a decent season and you know they could have and probably should have won more games than they have but then look at the Dragons we haven't had the chaos of other teams so we haven't had to make those cuts as I said and yet we're bottom of the table and I think that's really disappointing for me you know the one bit of good news I would say is that if you look at the teams that the Dragons have played Edinburgh, Leinster, Sharks away, Lions away and Cardiff and Ospreys so beat Ospreys yeah narrowly lost to Cardiff but you know Edinburgh, Leinster, Sharks and Lions I think no one probably would have expected the Dragons to win those the crucial one though is going to be after Europe so Cardiff away, Scarlets are home, Zebra away, Sharks at home I think if you don't get wins against two or three of those I think it's going to be a very long season but I think that's going to be basically the moment really that's going to be that kind of December, January. I don't know if we probably not more probably not I like isn't the right word but that's probably going to be the time where kicking and getting the ball away from your own hands is going to be most beneficial so I wouldn't yet write off the season it has been a very hard start but it's a little bit like the Scarlets start to going to South Africa and getting absolutely smashed by Stormers and whoever the other side was, Balls. Yeah getting absolutely smashed by those two it just it's expected but it's a horrible way to start the season it's just all that kind of optimism when you're charging around in August in ups and dooms and whatnot and then you get destroyed in your first few matches it just punctures that balloon of optimism really. Yeah so four of our first five games were at home this season now we should have beaten Edinburgh we had a really sizable lead and we talked about this in the pod but we turned down kickable points we made bad decisions we kicked to the corner where we shouldn't have done so we wasn't in a position to beat Edinburgh we was like 12-13 points ahead, that must be something silly but of course 12 yeah so when you've got a goal kicker like Ben Healy in your team and if you give away penalties he's gonna kick him because he's a very good goal kicker so that was a huge missed opportunity we should have beat them Cardiff again a team we can never beat for some reason we have a real hoodoo against them but that was a winnable game I was looking for three home wins in our first block I mean you're not going to beat Leinster though but I felt Edinburgh Cardiff and we did beat the Ospreys a winnable but it's just it's been a really disappointing first block for me personally yeah yeah just that. Okay so let's move on to Europe then and let's talk about Dragon's next opponents Oyuna now you know a thing is don't they Sam you've done some work for you now I understand haven't you so for our listeners who aren't fully aware of Oyuna can you tell us a bit about them and you know their strengths weaknesses and the players that we should be looking out for although that is going to be difficult with chance kept if they probably will rotate and guess in won't they? Yeah so Oyuna are one of two teams really significant French teams who are based on the east of France so they're in the Alps or on the outskirts of the Alps with Grenoble who are in division two used to be well still is but Muncy coach Mike Plentygast was at Chambray which is also in the Alps and Mike Phillips went to Burgoyne which is also in the Alps but so there's a little bit of rugby heritage in the French Alps but most of it's down in the in the southwest Toulouse and Poe and you know Cask and all those lot so a little bit of an outlier probably will get a I mean I know it's at the Dragons but there's you know some very potentially very cold fixtures for teams going to Oyuna in this part of the year as you might expect for the French team they wing it at home and then lose away so this year they've beaten Clermont in the opening game at home by 19 points and they've beaten La Rochelle at home by two points and they've beaten Lyon who were kind of expected to do quite well although they've been pretty poor this year so they do well they're 11th out of 14 in the top 14 but they've had four wins from nine so it tells you a lot about the league that Vassing have had six from nine and they're leading and Oyuna are kind of the last of the of the teams who are just a couple of wins away from Vassing there's there's Lyon who've won three of nine and Perpignan who've won two of nine and Montpellier at the bottom just one of nine who have inexplicably got brought back Bern Lepore but one thing to look out for with Oyuna is that their 22 entries are very good when they get into the opposition 22 but they're very poor when the opposition get into their 22 so that would be a key area to watch you know if the dragons give away penalties in their midfield and allow kickable opportunities then that will be a difficult game to come away from I think Oyuna you know they came up from Prodigeux last year they're a very good side and also as we saw with Georges Noff going to Provence so they're you know the Prodigeux and stop fighting a arguably a match for really any of the for any of the European leagues a couple of people in the team that you probably will have heard of so Rory Sutherland he is there he's made a few appearances all off the bench so far this year someone who hasn't really played much but is a Welsh Tramp is Luke Hamilton he went there a few years ago from Cardiff wasn't he is that right from Cardiff and Leicester oh right you say okay yeah so he was with Cardiff back in the early 2010s then Leicester after that he's been at Oyuna for four three years now but hasn't played at all this this season yet he only played sparingly last season so I wouldn't expect to see him play but but he might well do someone to look out for who possibly you won't know is Kevin Le Breton in the back row who was absolutely exceptional last year in Prodigeux he scored eight tries from from Flanker really really impressive both in the lying out and at the breakdown as well so I would expect him to play as you said at the start it depends a little bit how seriously Oyuna want to take this but he has played every single game of the season not started all but he has he's featured every single one although he's yet to recapture his try scoring form from last year and then I'd also point to Charlie Kassang at Scrum Hearth who again was a good really good player last year and also scored in the playoff final to come up from Prodigeux again he's featured a lot this year but hasn't recaptured that that try scoring form but again he's someone to watch it would be interesting to see who they go for with the with the starting lineup because there's a lot of a lot of kind of players that they could choose from and a little bit unclear kind of exactly where they're going to go in that in that way well brilliant thank you very much for that so after Oyuna we have Poe away from home in the challenge cup which was dragon's last away victory in all competitions so it'd be quite funny if we do this when we go out there we beat them because that'll be the last time that we'll come full circle then but um yeah it is interesting with the French teams the challenge cup though isn't it because people will say oh the French don't care about the challenge cup which isn't entirely true I think what happens is they're not really asked in the group stages but then once they get to the knockout stages then you start to see stronger teams and you know we've had a few French winners over the years I mean I can't think that you know all the French winners on the top may have been too long when it lashes and they have to batter in Glasgow so they do take it seriously but maybe in the group stages Sam this is the time to play them and get the result isn't it you know I definitely think so I think that's the element of uh the French teams trying um I think because they play so many games in the season and it's also so long um I think they often see it as a as a chance to best team the best players I think you see a little bit of that in the champions cup as well like there are teams who massively underperform in that um who should be better yeah um but I would definitely say it's a great time to play them because um you know they're coming off a good start to their to their season but not a great start um and so they will feel relatively comfortable in the in the top 14 I think um I mean I think Bompellier will will improve they're too good a team to stay at the bottom um but I think Perpignan are probably good a good bet to go down so as long as I just just you know stay clear um they'll be they'll be happy but I suspect they might see this as a nice couple of weeks to rest their star players and bring them back um flesh afterwards having said that though some of those guys I mentioned haven't played a huge amount and so they may want to go for a little bit of a run out and also I think if I were if I were a team like like the Scarletts or the Dragons where there's no risk of delegation and the chance of a playoff is is not mathematically obviously gone but realistically gone I would be turning my full attention to the to the challenge cup because it's a good chance to get get some numbers in get a couple of wings under your belt and then that could kick start your whole season whereas I think going out will feel relatively settled where they are then possibly we'll be looking on to the to the domestic scene yeah funny enough we talked about this on the wrap podcast last night where I said that I think the Welsh region's best chance of any success will be in the challenge cup rather than the URC and we talked about the Ospreys now look I know they've never won a quarterfinal they are the island of club rugby in our sense you know they've never won a quarterfinal but I feel that that'll be a really good opportunity for Toby Boothman to get some success and now they've got a good squad a good head coach and I know Dave Flanagan's talked about this um giving Europe a good run this year I would love to see Dragons have a home quarterfinal I mean we limped into the quarterfinals last year that we ended up playing Glasgow away and uh we ended up having 70 plus points for that so I would love to see it you know um have a home quarterfinal because it is a nice distraction Sam isn't it away from you know if you're struggling in the league Europe a new focus a new competition it can you know hopefully um spark something kind of we saw it with the Scarletts last season you know as a Scarletts fan yourself they really struggled in the URC they had a couple of big wins in the challenge cup but that seemed to be a springboard then for them to have a really strong second half the season so it is important these games isn't it it is massively so yeah and they are winnable like I think Oyenga is a big challenge but is a is a potential potential win I think Poe they're the better side but they will likely turn their attention fully to the top 14 where they actually have a decent chance for the first time in a few years of of getting to the playoffs and then having a good shower that potentially taking home the title obviously it's very early days but but they're looking very good this year so I'd expect Oyenga to put out a slightly weaker side and Poe to put out a much weaker side and if you think the Dragons after Poe they've got 10 days off until Cardiff then it's back to back with Scarletts but then they've got um almost two weeks off uh and then another two weeks off after the next game so they're not cramming the game thing um and which I think is good from the URC you know it's good to have these these weeks off yeah um uh so I think it is you make a hard case to say that they're going to damage their URC hopes by having a go at Eurolux at this point you think what's the what's the worst-case scenario really though you know maybe they're a bit tired of the URC game that they're good value to lose anyway so that horse has long bolted I don't think we need to worry about shutting that particular door yes yeah exactly it's out in the field yeah just making its way to the next farm but um so yeah I think I think Europe and also you know a trip to the thing with Europe I'm I'm really looking forward to you know try and get some some trips in um you know this year to some some European games because a trip down to France to play to watch a game that you actually might win is is a great up there you know but a great thing to do yeah and just to say as well I will not be taking Oyina for granted this weekend because if you cast your mind back and for Gavin on this last season Paul came down to Rodney Parade they put out a second string squad they didn't even have a head coach because he'd been suspended for 10 weeks but the yank in the referee's arm so I you know I'm very reluctant to trust the dragons at the moment so whatever side are you not going to bring you know it's no guarantees of a win and they're going to be solid up front they're all French teams they will always have a strong pack and that's my other concern as well because some games our scrum fronts up and others they simply don't I mean we dismantled the offspring scrum and how we did that I have no idea I mean Rodgerie Jones was indestructible that day and he said I don't know how but he really did have his feet to bits that day and then the next game yeah he got absolutely destroyed by the sharks but then he was string you know spring broccoli is involved so what was you going to say then Gav? No I was just going to say the thing with dragons that you can't ever assume anything anymore now you know I just I go into it with a mild sense of concern and if it doesn't get worse than a mild sense of concern I'm fine with that really. Yeah that's what you need you don't need anything more than a slight concern just pulling you through. Yeah a mild concern is fine whether you're in your head in your hands kind of mode like I was against sharks. That was so horrible to watch wasn't it I said to you because you watched the game back I said you like video nasties because it was really horrible to watch it was like watching a horror film it was brutal really really brutal. Okay so let's get a score prediction from you then Sam before you leave us how do you think this is gonna go? Well I'll whatever I say if I get it right I'll obviously do a lap but if I am if I get it wrong I'll be blaming either Oyinga or Dragons for not trying hard enough slash putting out the right team but I would like to see I've got a huge soft spot for Oyinga partly because they got me to do some work for them but partly because I just I just like being in that part of the world but I think Dragons could ease it by a couple so let's say 20 to 19. Oh okay yeah well fingers crossed Dragons do get a win because like I said we could do with a win a bit of a confidence boost. Okay so where can people find you then Sam we want to check out your excellent breads and all the work that you do for rugby pass and rugby world etc where can people find you on the socials? Yeah so on on twitter or x I've still not quite got around to calling x I'm not sure if I'm gonna fully lean that way but they can find me at Sam L stands up and then if you want to do anything on rugby world or rugby pass just I think just type in Sam Lung rugby into google and you'll see a few of my a few of my articles there. Brilliant have you not made the trip over to blue sky yet that's what a lot of people are doing there's a small sort of rugby community that's building there you don't fancy doing that? I am quite keen actually I haven't made the trip over but that's more due to laziness than anything else it took me a while to get onto onto twitter back in the day and I was on I was on Bebo about six months before it finished so I'm not That's a blast from the past Bebo bloody hell make an email about it. I'm too old for Bebo I never used Bebo the kids I taught used Bebo. Yeah did you ever use Friends of the United? I did yeah that's very much a marker but yeah I probably will be on blue sky at some point probably using the same handle if it's not already taken. Fantastic I'm deliberately Thank you so much for having me though guys I'm looking forward to seeing how the gardens go and yeah absolute pleasure thank you. Just to say you can watch the game on S4C so if you're not doing anything Saturday nights if you're not watching any other games the game is available to watch on S4C so yeah thank you very much for joining us it's really appreciated yeah thanks again and we'll get you on the pod again I think you've been a very knowledgeable and great guest for us thank you so much we love your time. Thank you Jamie let me know if I'm knowledgeable when you see the result on Saturday but thank you. Cheers Sam nice to meet you guys see you later. Here we go Sam Larner a very knowledgeable guy I like Sam he just really knows his stuff about gardens and he knows his onions. No I think that he communicates in a really understandable way you know he doesn't make too much of a joke of it but you know it's not delivered very straight either you know I think he's very good at doing that and I would say that because he's a friend of mine but you know he's good anyway without that. The Fred he does yeah like I said the striply one the superb because anyone can relate to that you don't have to be a rugby nut to understand and appreciate that and you know people can really learn a thing or two. He did one about kicking that was superb just generally superb. Yeah any dragons support at the moment about this kicking go and follow Sam look at his threads he does explain it in a fantastic informative fun way he's a very knowledgeable guy good bloke. Right then Gav let's go on to it then dragons 49 dragons 24 so a poor second half so dragons fall to a successive heavy defeat in South Africa. Dragons had been in the contest at that time and they were boosted by red cards for Lyons love Ruben Shulman which was a red card a lot of Lyons I've seen a lot of Lyons player and supporters on social media saying it was never red and it was harsh. You can't elbow people in the head. No no generally you know if what happened to Tain wasn't it you know Tain did it. Yeah I'm very surprised Ashton I didn't see him go off a HIA or maybe he did but he was knocked out when he sparked so yeah it was it was definitely a red. It was down as a HIA as well. Yeah so that definitely was a red as far as I could say there's not even a debate to be had. No no no. But basic errors once again Kostai Fragans injury hit side as they leaked six tries in Johannesburg so dragons return home having conceded 118 points on this tour which unfortunately is more than the Scarletts well it's only three more than the Scarletts but yeah it's a whopping 118 points we conceded and now we turn our attention to Europe as we talked about them on Saturday. So I think for me Gav the first thing I would say about this game is this was a much better performance than the one we saw against Sharks. We did see them play with a lot more tent in attack you know that they were giving a good crack in fairness they play with a lot of ambition and we did score some nice tries. We didn't score four which would have given us a try bonus point but we did score three really good tries but unfortunately Gav it's the same old story with the dragons isn't it this season unforced errors missed opportunities and poor discipline and the biggest takeaway from that match for me was Lions scored six tries in total five of those tries were through dragons errors so the first half you had Steph who's attempted a grubber kick which was never on a really poor decision I don't know what Steph was thinking. Steph is not having a good season by the way. He really isn't. As much as I like Steph is he's not having a good season that was a poor decision. So yeah that gets charged now Lions counter-attack they score. Then we got another tried end in the first half so we're applying pressure to Reds so we win a penalty Wilry does really well he gets the ball right in the corner it's a fantastic kick we go through the phases I can't quite see who knocks it on it looks like George Knott. I've watched the back several times it's not entirely clear. No it's one of those yes no I think it was George Knott but like I say I wasn't 100% sure. Yeah so George Knott knocks it on um Lions counter-attack play advantage they go from their own try line right up the other end and they score so two errors in the first half two dragons tries. Then in the second half we had the ball from a kick um left place advantage Lions score. Joe Davis fresh off the bench um I don't know what happened he just was nowhere near it he just drops a pass uh pretty sloppy if I'm being honest. Advantage played Lions score and then the last Lions try came from an over-thrown line-out for Bradley Roberts which was really frustrating and Lions score. So all those try and five tries out of the six were from dragons errors and that's really really frustrating that's why I asked that question to Sam about why do we keep making these errors and you know what does it come down to is it coaching is it players is it both and I think that's what upset me the most about this game Gav is we gifted the Lions easy easy points you know we didn't make them work hard enough and don't get me wrong they were the better team of course they were um and they dominated the breakdown we really struggled at the breakdown but um even when it was down to 14 men they got comfortable in the Lions you know we didn't pressure them enough we never took advantage of that extra man advantage. It never looked like we had an extra man that was my issue with it as well and what we were and this is the thing though this is the thing this season and this is something that has to be coached we can't deal with counter-attacks no we saw it with Mason Grady against Cardiff we saw it against Sharks and we've seen it against Lions but if a team counter-attacks we do not organize ourselves defensively at all I wouldn't even say well we don't do it at all and teams stroll in for scores. Yeah the discipline was another issue so Dave Flanagan talked about you know getting off to a good start he mentioned the first 20 minutes being really important and Rodney Williams gets a yellow for a deliberate knock-on. Ironically we actually play yeah we actually play well when we're down to 40 men we scored a really good try um and Ivan Owen does well to charge our kick down the gas from Wainwright who in fairness I thought he was fantastic in a losing course Aaron Wainwright was really really good and Jordan Williams flings a wild pass which not for the first time in that game thankfully it is gathered and um Teddy goes over and you're thinking oh hang on you know we could come away with something I'm not saying you know I didn't think we're going to win at that point but I thought maybe we can come away with something but um unfortunately the errors the discipline Bradley Roberts we talked about yeah we told you how good Bradley Roberts has been you know how much I love Bradley that trip you know it was absolutely daft wasn't it you know and we were 18-10 down we were still in the game at that point you know we were chasing the game and then Bradley does that gets himself in the same bin you're like why why do that what what goes through the head when you're doing stuff like that I just found it really frustrating I know and it's so frustrating but it's not just errors in the game it's just like poor judgment as well that trip you know kind of Rodri's knock on there you know it's all stuff you can choose not to do yeah and um because sometimes you'll get a yellow card for stuff you're not really in control of you might have ridden up in the tackle might be a penalty but tripping or just batting the ball down in the hope that no come on you've got to make better decisions than that absolutely so Dave Flanagan after the game said we were just really inaccurate it's frustrating because there were opportunities galore yeah quite right listen to this staff this is what he said I know if you see these comments we've just got to catch the ball we've just got to make a tackle we've got to work on that individually and collectively he's a professional rugby players gaff and Dave Flanagan's coming out saying we need to work on catching a ball and making tackles I find that quite concerning I do to you oh he's I play rugby with a guy on Saturday who's nearly 40 and has never played rugby union in his life he's rugby league player hasn't played down 10 years and he could make tackles and catch the ball so it worries me the guys who are trained to do it are struggling to do it yeah it's um it's just so frustrating and something needs to be done about the errors and the discipline um yeah it's just really frustrating and like I know where you've got a lot of injuries like say we're 16 players unavailable and you have got to take into account the altitude the hot it was very hot in Johannesburg we had to tell us about that yeah I think we were blowing out our arses in the last 20 minutes was an issue we looked absolutely knackered like we did against the charts you know we're just not fit enough to cope in these conditions um you know those factors have to be taken into account but I was hoping for a bonus point after this game I never expected us to win but I was hoping for a bonus point and we had the chance of a bonus point but we just missed too many opportunities and then we're let down by the the poor discipline you know the bad decision making the errors the knock-ons yeah it's just another frustrating lost gap isn't it and yeah if we leave points out on the field and we aren't a team who can afford to do that no because you know if we weren't getting the chances fine you're not getting the chances but when you're leaving chances out on the field that is the problem yeah okay let's open our mailbox and let's see what our listeners got to say so let's start with the Rodney Raw fan account on twitter two tough games as expected but we've been found wanting yeah can we take any positives from this tour so there's a question for you can we as supporters take any positives whatsoever from this tour we didn't come away with too many extra injuries I suppose apart from Kai Evans yeah any any other positives we scored some tries and that's it is there or yeah I think I know it's it's hard to it's hard to find positives isn't it yeah I have to say as well um I thought Ashton Hewitt had a very good game he did that's probably the best um game I've seen him have in a long time with ball in hand and there were a couple of tackles that you know left he's not he's never been no offensively as he and I'm kind of bless him I do like him as a player and as a bloke generally but uh he he's never been good defensively which is why he's never really gone the Welsh team yeah and I would give a shout out to Matthew Screech who I thought worked incredibly hard he was our top tackler again uh on the weekend as I mentioned earlier for our wing that was really really good you know he was given everything in the last course no two lost causes um but other than that it is difficult to see not to take away too many positives isn't it you know like I said we can see the 118 points which is three more points than the Scarletts and they had a tough tour with the South Africa but they did indeed yeah like I said I was just hoping for a bonus point or two we didn't get it so um yeah not too many positives to take away not really oh come on no I'm just gonna say and there aren't many positives to take away and if we try to make it sound too positive I think we're just papering over cracks I think we're we're not quite in crisis but we're not far off crisis now no and you don't want to be that why called the dragon's apologist because there are some people in our fan base who are dragons apologists and sometimes you have got to be honest and call out poor performances you know yes so Steve Davis says what happened last weekend is a chaotic and disorganized how will we get the Wales players to resign if we carry on like this so he's talking about players like um Real Dya and our way which I believe are out of contract this season he's saying how we're going to get them to um carry on like this what I would say is I think they're under the cap threshold I don't know but no going by this is I'm not sure how many caps you got but Real Dya is under the cap threshold so he'll have to say 25 now it's 25 now yeah so yeah Wainwright's fine Wainwright will go to England or France I imagine will he though do you think because you know you do Warren Gatlin likes his best players in Wales doesn't he and you start missing training sessions it does count against you if you go to England or France so but if you're doing more money and play winning rugby you'd probably do it wouldn't you I I don't blame him as he did um I'd be really gutted by that but I know he's a Newport boy so maybe that will uh you know the the call of Newport will be too strong for him yeah we are also a Newport boy but um yeah winning performances will help keep players at the club if they can see progress being made but you know if we're losing week in week out it's it must be pretty demoralizing for players and frustrating for them as well isn't it so 100% you know it's I've been inside I was on the side of them winning game for a season it is quite difficult the lacy boots up but knowing that's your job as well must be even worse yeah so my answer to Steve's question is are we going to get them to resend contracts by winning and showing progress that's how you do it um Nathan two score lines let's be honest probably we expected biggest concern for me is the injuries before and during the tour surely with the backroom staff departures players loaned out we can strengthen for let's be honest two season defining derbies over Christmas um I don't see us making any uh signings in the backroom or on the field now but um what were those two score lines as expected for you guys I was a bit bigger than I was imagining initially I think yeah you know I thought we could keep them within 20 points well we nearly did with lions but I thought we could keep sharks within 20 points as well yeah and unless you know let's be honest about that as I mentioned earlier two score lines as we expected okay you know if you look at the sharks game we were heavily beaten but there were some soft tries that we gave away and as I've already mentioned with the lions game we gave them away a lot of points so it didn't have to be that way actually it didn't have to be so heavy if we had made so many errors it could have been closer and a lot more competitive but when you're gifting tries to the opposition then the score line does become as expected but it didn't have to be that way I think we gave nine tries away across those two games nine tries you counted yeah four against sharks and five against lions so that's you know that's the lead yeah that's a lot of points you know that's that's part of uh 60 points 70 points if you cut the errors they're not going to be high scoring games and okay we're still loose but if you cut it it makes the score line respectable but when you keep making errors and gifting points then it starts to become lopsided and then we do think ourselves off you know this is same old dragons what we expect but it didn't have to be that way I guess yes then says why do we struggle to carry out first half performance into the second half I mean that's a good question I don't know the answer to it but he is right I don't know what goes on in the team talk in the changing but we always come out the second half well I do have an answer for yes then for this one I think oh okay for both quests for both the last two games anyway it's well it's been the conditions you know what we play in Newport we're playing in tropical heat tropical humidity and then we were playing in extreme heat at altitude that's gonna take anything then goes down why we were rubbish in the second half against Edinburgh who knows but uh but that's the thing isn't it it's not just in South Africa you know we are generally not we don't come out the second half firing do we even when we're in the lead or we're chasing the game we just don't seem to come out all guns blazing you know so I don't know what goes on in the changing with what the team talk is but you've got to wonder haven't you what's uh what's being said okay so Garth Leclerc says we are currently struggling with strength in depth it was ever thus let's be honest how of us do to cut 700k from the wage bill next season how do you see us being competitive next year also will our new owners invest in the coaching setup we desperately need a defense coach and more experience in camp or absolutely and we've talked about that haven't we I'm not happy with this coaching setup this to me is a rush principality coaching setup I know they're highly rated coaches um I I do rate Dave Flanagan I still think there's valid question marks about him being a head coach but I just don't think he's got the experience support network that he needs around him personally well we absolutely need new people around around him you know I don't want to get rid of Dai because I think we should invest in him but if he is not surrounded by experienced people it is not going to get better no and we definitely need a defense coach um for those asking so it's Sam Hobbs who's the academy head coach he helps out with the defense with Dai Flanagan but we don't have a specialist defense coach and I think it showed in some of those games that we've seen this season you know but um some reason is forgivable you know some reason is forgivable reorganizing yourself from a counter attack you know and any coach should be able to develop a plan for that yeah I agree the first part of the question we do have to cut 700k from the budget and how do we see us being competitive next season so but also on to it all the Welsh teams now are operating on a budget of around 5.2 that's going to come down next season to 4.5 I think all the Welsh regions face this dilemma not just us how do you remain competitive when you've got to make further cuts um I think we're going to have to make some very difficult decisions on certain players one of them being Leon Brown who's also coming to the end of his contract is it well it's a difficult question to ask but can we afford to keep him on given his injury record that that's a question that Dai Flanagan and the Dragons board they've got to start asking the difficult questions can we afford to carry players we know Leon's got the talent and ability but we barely see him we're going to have to really make some tough decisions on key players Gavin what does he bring at the minute does he bring more than you know than he takes and right now that's not the case is it he's a good player but I don't know how many games he's played for Dragons in the last two seasons it won't be lots will it I just don't think he's bringing a lot to the party right now and he's probably on a higher wage and we could afford to lose him yeah you know it's um it's a difficult one with Leon I don't really want to see him go but like I said we've got cut 700k and you're gonna have to think some big names are gonna have to leave to get that down aren't you so I'm expecting like so Bertrand who's gonna yeah I was gonna say Bertrand was nailed on isn't he he's gonna have to go I think you know it'd be a shame um I could see someone like maybe Sio Tomkinson moving on um you know I think all the Southern Hemisphere guys will I think Archie will yeah do you know how many appearances Leon Brown has made in the last four seasons not four I'm gonna say 26 and I'm being massively over the top there I reckon he's made 23 appearances in the past four seasons so like I said that that's a dilemma for the Dragons you know they could have got rid of Ollie Griffiths last year and there were people saying that we should have let Ollie go and kept Ben Fry I was one of those as much as I love Ollie but um that wage bill needs to come down somehow and I'm afraid we're going to have to make some difficult decisions and um let some players go who we may not want to let go for sentimental reasons and personal reasons but you know it's a difficult one Gavin. Bertrand was a great player but we don't have him enough to justify the amount of money he's earning no and he can probably earn even more money in France yeah he probably will and you know I would like to keep Sio as well um I still don't think we've really seen the best of him but I do like him but again it's difficult isn't it so um we'll have to see what happens there so Richard Hicks says an improvement on the sharps game yeah I can't help but feel there are four or five players now starting 15 simply not good enough for this level to be starting most weeks but they are slightly too good for the Welsh Prem and he's talking about having A games but I mean you know that's not going to happen because um there's no room in a calendar not enough players there's no room in a calendar who would they play where would they play when would they play um and this is what the elite league is being set up for isn't it I understand just to get those players but the thing is and this is where Welsh rugby comes and kills me now because I'm going to say uh say what I think on the elite league if the elite league is just that's you know kind of Pompey, Poole, Ebbw Vale whoever goes in there and it's just a continuation of that the same problems will continue that have played the stages if the elite league is going to be successful it needs to be set up in such that by connections to historic clubs or anything it needs to be no more than eight teams and it needs to be eight teams made up of guys in academies it means that needs to be made up of guys on the fringes of first team and the best players from the premiership and they need to be super competitive week in week out yeah fair enough okay last um it's not really a question it's a comment from Daniel Green whole team lacks consistency defence can be good and awful in the same set no clear tactics either yes how much to be said about that is it really well we could disagree I think we'd be wrong yeah I if you ask me what's dragons playing style right now I couldn't tell you there are times where we look good defensively we do bring some good defensive sets but then they you know one-up tackles and that's frustrating which is unforgivable on the counter-attack you know we saw a couple of players got bumped off didn't we but for one of the lines tries you know when they went the whole length of field you're thinking oh come on that's not yeah not at that level that shouldn't be happening no okay thank you for your comments and questions let's move on to this shouldn't take too long um Gav's Gwent rugby roundup did any rugby actually played the other weekend because there was a whole lot of pictures one game was played on Thursday uh Ebbw Vale travelled to Aberavon and lost 24-13 yeah Aberavon had lost four in a row and Ebbw Vale you know kind of been doing very well and yeah lost 24-13 away to Aberavon other than that there was absolutely no rugby really played no did you watch the um Aberavon Ebbw Vale game by any chance i didn't sadly uh did you see Jason Hyatt's interview after the game oh yeah i saw that i saw that very emotional i i like that i think that's nice to see that you could tell they desperately needed that win because um i don't think many people fancied them against Ebbw Vale who were looking really good this season um yeah i just thought it was nice to see a bit of raw emotion from coaches you know rather than just being robotic and talking the media spin you know it's um part of me was happy for him i would have liked to see that win but um it was nice to see uh you know coach showing our raw emotion no and i think you know and it's because he's put a lot of effort in that he's not getting paid a lot of money so he's getting expenses yeah no okay that's that's the shortest Gwent rugby roundup we've had on this podcast so far isn't it right then let's rate the match day playlist so this week is Olly Griffiths this is the songs he chose for the Edinburgh game so for those who aren't aware the dragons are doing a feature where they're asking players to contribute six songs to the match day playlist at Brondie Parade so this is his first choice Gav, a band i like quite a lot although this song is a bit meh for me it's bring me to life by ever essence do you like ever essence no i really i really don't i really don't what what is it what is ever essence ever essence are like i don't want to say goth but they are a bit like that a bit like you know within temptation and nightwish but better i would say although they're better than nightwish but then you know kind of so is everything but uh yeah you know they're a bit gothy they're a bit poppy they're a bit metal they're not really anything it's just a bit of everything bring me to life is all right you know i like i like the guitar tone on it's quite crunchy but i really can't cope with the bloke's rapping yeah you know apparently amy lead a singer she doesn't like that part and that wasn't supposed to be there that was sort of added last minute but they went with it and it became a massive smash hit i mean that was the song that made them wasn't it i've seen ever since live in carly a few years ago on the first album they did fallen the fallen tour amy has got a hell of a voice she's got to be very talented very talented woman amy yeah she can really send there's no doubt about that okay then let's move on um this is an interesting one free love freeway by david brent are you a ricky gervais fan no in a word no i i i think he's a fairly grim human being he punches down he just punches down it's a coma it's a comedy of cruelty and he'll say oh it's meaningful it's not meaningful mate it's not it's not caring there's no tenderness to it you punch down because you're a bully so you don't like shows like the office afterlife i like the office i think the office is good yeah yeah the office is great but the office is great because you know he's a terrible human being you're not meant to like brent brent is a terrible human being if you like david brent you miss the point of that entire show yeah and you can to try and turn brent into this thing he's not a figure of fun the bloke is a terrible human being and that's the whole point of the office you end up liking the good human beings you end up liking tim and i can't remember a name you know you don't like gareth you don't like finchley you don't like uh brent because they aren't very nice human beings no i do like ricky gervais i i love his work i like extras the office and i loved afterlife on netflix really loved our show but i can understand why you and a lot of people don't like him he's very divisive i completely get it it's derek that did it for me oh derek was good yeah oh he's doing like that yeah no because he just felt like he was punching down uh yeah i can see what you mean i can see what you mean by that yeah okay so that's a no from you then uh and i also didn't like the carl pilkington thing because it felt like he was bullying carl pilkington i think he plays on it carl pilkington i don't feel for one second either but uh you know saying that kind of freeway free love freeway is quite funny as a song the episode of the office when he sings is is the episode it's in the film life on the roads then i'm not that song so uh yeah i don't know if you want but he sings it uh in the office episode when they have their uh the training day don't they and they'll bring me the guitar which is from that and the quiz night episode of the two best episodes yeah i agree with you so i went off to a good start you think have you ever heard any of these songs what about this one then it's a classic um gets played on radio all the time american pie by don mclean would you stand on that one i'm not a fan no i'm not a fan it's too long why is it going on for so long did you say that about free birthday well then it's good it's still a great song i don't mind long songs long songs if you like them though oh god yeah one of my favorite songs is station the station by david bowie which is nine and a half minutes yeah but the thing with american pie is it also reminds me of uh drunk blokes in the pub my mom used to run because uh it'd be uh i can have a pound change for the jukebox and you know oh my god i know what's coming and then american pie would come on five times and the next time send songs and it'd be loads of half-cut middle-aged blokes probably younger than i am now but you know at that time felt a middle-aged bloke singing along with american pie also it's responsible for one of the worst covers oh madonna's oh my god that is an absolute atrocity that is rightly regarded as the worst ever cover version ever of a classic song that let me guide you towards the randoran's version of 9-1-1 is a joke by public enemy i've not heard that i don't think i want to hear it to be quiet why do you not want to hear a bunch of white middle-aged millionaires singing a song about the difficulties of calling ambulances in black districts in america can't imagine why you wouldn't want to listen to that it is awful i do like duran duran though i will say that i know you want to prove for that i i'd like some of this stuff like particularly earlier stuff do you know the song the chauffeur yes that's a great song hmm yeah lots of duran duran left then okay so um the next one we've got we're both gonna like this one are we welcome to the jungle cancer roses you can't argue with that it's a banger it's an absolute banger yeah yeah and it's a song we've heard a million times as rock fans so we never get bored off it doesn't matter because it's brilliant yeah absolutely good choice great songs this next song i never heard of it before and i never heard of the guy it's come running by darren styles so i saw it i thought well i've never heard of this so i played it today and it starts off really nice you think oh it's a really nice ballad and then it takes a horrible turn into like techno clubland nonsense that you're in vibes at four o'clock in the morning it's not a good song if you're there i did listen to it when i saw on the list there it's it's a bit like the kind of thing uh someone sings on the x-files when they're trying to you know bring the energy up no the x-files x-factor it does though it takes a really bizarre change because when you first you know the first few seconds oh this is really nice ballad and then it just goes you're like oh no no no it sounds like something that came eighth on eurovision oh it's bloody awful it does sound like a european song funny enough doesn't it you can imagine i don't know but the sweden or denmark or italy just coming up with that sort of nonsense coming up the last track i mean this is a classic it's not my cup of tea but it is a classic it's sandstorm by darude i mean this song has been in so many films so many television adverts it's very popular with a lot of sports teams so nottingham forest play this apparently at halftime and they come out after the halftime they play the rude sandstorm um what are your thoughts on this with that it brings back really kind of stressful memories of a tale it was being played in a changing room for a team of friends and one of my teammates in nothing but his pants dancing as mad as ever so whenever i hear it i just have that image in my head oh my god no i don't think about that it's the thing that's the worry is that kind of euro pop trance stuff it's good it does that thing very well it's not something i would ever choose to listen to no like i said it's not my cup of tea but i i appreciate it it's a club classic and like it's been used so many times in tv and radio and can you remember video games you know you're younger than me so i don't even know if you'd remember it but you're a whole decade younger than me can you remember children by robert miles yes classic they used to use that on do you remember a welsh television show called week in week out it was like a bbc wales current affairs program that was the feature i do it's a very famous song can you name another robert miles song because i can't off the top of my head that's literally the only song i know that's a brilliant song that's a brilliant song yeah nike's classic that one isn't it right then okay so these are the songs that are always chosen bring me to life ever essence free love freeway by david brent american pie don mclean welcome to the jungle guns and roses can running by dan stiles and sandstone by the root what are you marking this out the tank half four four yeah it's annoying for me this playlist because it's some really good tracks i mean i love that you know the guns and roses ever essence like i said i'm not a big fan of song but i do like ever essence and i do like the david brinkley but then it's you know the darren stiles and the don mclean and it's a bit it tails off doesn't it quite rapidly i'm afraid yeah so um i'm gonna give it a six i think i'm gonna be a bit more kind and give it a six so um yes that's where i am with that one so what did you say that was your score four four okay so four and six right i think we've got ben carter's playlist look forward to um i think we're gonna hate that you know from what i've seen i think we're gonna hate it but uh there we go then right let's move on then before we wrap up we talked about it earlier with sam we are playing oyana in the challenge cup on saturday night kick off eight o'clock the game is live on s4c as well so we can all watch that one or some of us can go to the game depending on where you are and if you fancy it's gonna be a very cold night down soon um it's not a good kick off time eight o'clock on a saturday night in newport but i'm guessing that is because of french tv that would be my guess as to why it's eight o'clock so look we've had a disappointing first block in the usc we move into europe this is you know new focus new competition how do we feel going into this game jav the thing is you can't really make a prediction because you don't know what oy and our team is going to turn up yeah exactly you know if if we get their best team then they'll beat us by 10 15 if they send a weakened team then we'll beat that um i i do feel that we can we've got good opportunities to go in here and try and store some confidence and i know that the dragons are taking the challenge cup seriously they want to do well it would be nice to have some success in this competition when that you know because the urc is a struggle for us all but especially for dragons right now we are at the bottom of the table it would it would be nice you know to have a good running competition give fans something to cheer about and look forward to isn't it you know yeah and something to bounce off yeah absolutely um we don't know well we don't have any idea what the teams are going to be we are recording earlier in the week than we would usually do i've seen elliot dean's face on the poster for the image they've been putting up for this game so i'm assuming he's going to be available are we going to see birtranew back hopefully we will but it'd be nice to see him at some point this season wouldn't it you know um but with all the injuries we got it's hard to know who's available um i did read that frank and say that he may not risk ollie in his european games he may keep him for the welsh derbys which is probably sensible i get that but um it's just knowing who's available and who we got really isn't it you know found something to cheer about yeah absolutely okay so let's get a prediction then garth before we wrap up what are you going to say what's this full prediction either 1914 to us or 26 12 to them depending on the teams yeah i don't think this is going to be a high scoring game at all i think this is going to be a bit of a slugfest um i just i just got off either this is going to be a bit of a struggle um we need to get parity up front obviously but um i am but i am going to back the dragons win um what was my score prediction on that i can't remember what i said did i say try this by five or six well i can't remember there's somewhere in that region and i am going to back us to to go when i think it's a good opportunity to try and uh get some momentum and confidence going in a competition where you know we've had some success in this competition you know it's not you know we haven't had a success i can't have a badge but they've won it twice but we used to get to the knockout stages quite regularly didn't we you know we have had a couple of semi-finals we've had good memories Gloucester, Stade Francais so um you're just hoping that we can um get back on track so um yeah fingers crossed for a dragon's win so is there anything else to think of before we wrap up no i think that covers it all excellent thank you very much for your company and thanks to Sam for joining us great to have him on and thank you all for listening we'll be back next week where hopefully we'll be talking about a dragon's win fingers crossed because that would be nice wouldn't it that would be very very nice i was just imagining it for a brief second i was just imagining a final score after a very tough tour to South Africa and a tough first block the URC please dragons stop making errors be better and give us long-suffering fans something to cheer thank you very much totally agree absolutely okay take care we'll speak next week goodbye bye all thank you for listening to the dragon's lair podcast we hope you enjoyed the show please subscribe rate and review wherever you listen to us as it really helps spread the word you can find us on all the usual social media channels or email us on welshregionalrugbypod at gmail.com and remember whatever the question is rugby is always the answer