Dragons Lair: Judgement Day!

The Dragon's Lair podcast is doing a Judgment Day special, previewing the Dragons vs. Scarlet's rugby match. The guest, Rhiannon, is a Burnley girl living in Denmark and a Scarlet's fan. She talks about her Welsh heritage and how she became a Scarlet's fan. She also discusses her love for Reece Patchell, a player she hopes will return to the Scarlet's or play for a team that allows him to play for Wales. Rhiannon describes Patchell as a more rounded and calm player than he is often given credit for. Welcome to the Dragon's Lair. Hello and welcome to this week's edition of the Dragon's Lair podcast, your home all things Dragons LFC and rugby in the region. I'm Jamie and joining me as usual is Gavin Thomas. Gavin, how are we? I'm very well, Jamie. Very well prepared for the fine feast of rugby we have this weekend. Makes a change for you to be prepared, Gav. The only job you've always prepared. I know that you've always prepared. No, no, I think you're right first time. OK, so you can find us at all the usual places, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, and don't forget to follow us on our social media channels on Facebook and X. Right, so this week then we are doing a Judgment Day special. So Dragons are facing the Scarletts in Cardiff at the CCS, not the Principality Stadium this year, and we have a Scarletts fan to help us preview that game. So our guest is an academic, a writer, and she has appeared on podcasts such as Rock and Roll and Blood and Mud. It's Burnley's finest Rhiannon Garth-Jones. Welcome to the pod, Rhiannon. How are we? Sorry, I think I'm just going to have to recover from being introduced as an academic and a Scarletts fan. Gav told me to say that, just so you know. That wasn't my intro, that was Gavin. It's swearing a lot on this podcast, I should have checked. I've immediately got some words for you. I'm good, thank you. It's really nice to be here. Brilliant. Yeah, thanks for joining us. So you're a Burnley girl living in Denmark, you're also a Welsh Rugby fan and a Scarletts fan, as I mentioned. Could you start off by telling us a bit about yourself and how come a Burnley girl ended up in Denmark? Yeah, so I mean, the short answer basically is that everyone in my family ended up somewhere not in Burnley for a quite substantial period of time. So it's quite normal for us. One of my mother's lives in Cambodia at the moment, the other has just moved back to the area, but for years lived all over the place. I'm the weird one for moving to a place, one place and staying there kind of permanently, not like travelling around, which is what both my parents did for like a good all of the eighties and tried quite hard for a bit of the nineties as well. So it's quite normal for us. And then basically I got a new job and the night before I started, the only time Google has ever given me an advert, something I might actually want, that's not something I've already like tried to look up. It was like, do you want to move to Copenhagen and study a master's for free? And I was like, oh yeah, I do want to do that. That sounds fucking great. For free, what? And it was just after we'd voted to leave the EU and I wasn't super thrilled about leaving the EU and it was, yeah, just kind of like, just sort of perfectly timed. So I started, I'd been doing this new job and I was like, so happy to be here, immediately thinking about leaving the country. And I moved and just loved it from the start. So I know I know this, but I'll miss this one. So why Welsh rugby? All right. Well, so I think the name probably gives it away. I live for it. The accent is confusing. So my dad's side of the family is Welsh. My granddad was, he actually, he wasn't born in Wales, he moved back, but he moved in his mum, he learned Welsh, he's a Kimraig speaker. And so obviously rugby union, not big around Burnley really, or rugby league. So we grew up, me and my brothers, watching football and cricket because my dad kind of fell in love with it in the nineties. But my granddad was like, are we grandchildren that like sport? Fucking great. And so basically every time we went over to visit, we would watch and we would, you know, as you would imagine of a man of that generation, we heard a lot about JPR and a lot about Barry John and a lot about the greats for Lesley team and the Welsh teams of the seventies. Somebody once told me that. No way. Why didn't they say something? Am I the first person to do anything? You're so lucky you've got Scots on the podcast. Finally, you can hear the stories of the glory days. I never knew that. So why Scarlets then? So they were my granddad's team. I think when Welsh rugby went regional, because obviously there wasn't a team in North Wales, he just went for Scarlets on the basis that they were for Lesley and if he had to pick one of the others, it would have been them. And so to be honest, I didn't really follow them when I was younger. I kind of kept an eye on it in the 2010s, I think. It wasn't really until he died. I just watched International before that. And then when he died, I was like, well, I've got no one to tell me stuff now. And it's not like he was ever a very reliable source of information on the Welsh team. His opinions were dreadful. I was just sort of like, right, well, I guess I'm going to have to find this stuff out for myself. So I just was like, well, I'll start watching his old team then. It's quite nice, you know, way to kind of remember him. And then I moved to Denmark, that would have been 2017, and had a little bit more spare time on my hands. So I watched a bit more rugby. And also, that was the time, I think in the 2010s, I don't know how you guys felt, but unless you were very, very online, and by that I kind of mean on Reddit, there wasn't a lot of good rugby content that was like a step above the news. It was like analysis, but also wasn't like the Murray Kinsella level of like, I sort of need a graph, get my head around some of this. I think that was a relatively new thing at that point. I used to read Stephen Jones and JBG Thomas and the Western Mail. My mates would be texting me being like, I read this Stuart Barnes article and I think it's wrong. Can you tell me why? I'd read what's his face. You know, I've blocked it out of my mind this week, and I'm fine with that. But the lad who should know better, because he's actually Welsh, who used to write for the Guardian, who once confused Rhys Patchell and Rhys Priestland. Oh God, yeah, I know who I'm in, yeah. Harry something-on-the-thieves, God. He's not employed anymore. I don't wish him well or anything, but I don't mind that. Anyway, so there was a period where like all of my mates would kind of text me for like more in-depth rugby, just like information. And I just realised, I was like, what time I spend texting people words. I could just write these words for like more people. And I was already a journalist, so I didn't know how to write the words. So I was like, fuck it, I'm just going to write the stuff about Welsh rugby that I would like to read. And if no one's going to write it, I will, at least other people can read it. And so that's what I did. And then I made loads of extra rugby friends, which was very nice. And then Gav, which was less nice. So for you, who's the archetypal Scarlet player? So you're not of your granddad's generation, clearly, not of my generation, so you won't remember the players of the 80s and 90s. So for you, who were the players, not growing up, because you're an adult, but the players that, you know, first drew you to the Scarlets made you fall in love with them? I think, I mean, definitely long retired by that point, but I think I knew I had watched Stephen Jones play for Scarlet when I wasn't really watching like domestic rugby. And so when I kind of decided to like start paying attention to domestic rugby, and I felt like I was always going to support Scarlet, because that was my granddad's team. And I was like, oh, yeah, and that was Stephen Jones's team. I liked that. And then I think that was, might have been the year Foxy was at, it was in the period where Foxy was at Claremont, I think. Yeah, would have been that time, yeah. Yeah, but there would have been, hmm, there were, well, Cubby was there, John Barksley, there was a lot of really good back rowers. Yes, Tideburn. Actually, that's not true. There was a lot of really good flankers, but there was not a single number. Yeah, it was, it was just before Tideburn joined. It was just before Patch joined. I loved, I love Reece Patchell. I want nothing but good for him, and also for him to immediately return and play for us. They're trying to sign him. The Dragons have been trying to sign Reece Patchell for the past two years or so. So, if he can't play for my team, I just want him to play for a team that will let him play for Wales, and pay him some money, and let him play some nice rugby. Every time I see him do really well in Super Rugby, it just makes me really happy for him. He looks good in gold and black, I reckon. Yeah, I think you can pull it off. You improve your team. I know that's rich coming from my team. We often say on this pod that we need another 10. We've got a young 10 in Will Reid, who's a good player, but he needs somebody occasionally to say, don't do that, that's really stupid. I wouldn't describe Reece Patchell as a voice of calm and wisdom, necessarily. But I think he's a more rounded, calmer player than he gets credit for in Wales, actually. I don't think, he's not cut from the, you know, I think when he first came out, there was this idea that he was a throwback to the Welsh 10s of the 70s, and he was all sidesteps and jinx. He's not that player. He's not that bigger, by any stretch of the imagination. But he's more in the vein of Gareth Hanscombe or Reece Priestland than he is. He's definitely closer to them, yeah. But he's more, I think, the thing about Patchell is, I think he has generally played in teams that let him play with more flair, she says wincingly. But you know, he's perfectly capable of being quite a boring 10, if you want him to be. He's just very rarely asked to be, and Gats very rarely trusted him to be. But he can do it quite well, actually. It's just, it's not asked of him. Yeah, well, I think Gatland, it was a lack of trust for Gatland. Yeah. But I mean, if you think about that, the Wales game in 2019, where he came on against Australia, because Digger got injured in the first half. And he was just really composed, actually. And I know it felt for a lot of people, that was the period of watching Wales where I was just incredibly serene, because I had, partly I think because I was writing about it, and it's actually quite difficult to be like really stressed when you're literally just getting nervous. But partly because around the end of 2018, I was just like, I think I've worked out what Gats is doing here. And I trust it. And it's working. And you just have to believe that the fitness will win, like we will win games for the fitnessers. So it doesn't matter if it's really stressful on 78 minutes, because when it comes to 80 minutes, we'll be fine. So that Wales-Australia game in the World Cup, almost everyone else was really, really stressed watching it. And I was like, no, it's going to be fine. It's working. We're running them off the park. They are getting more and more tired. We look really calm. It's not going to be a problem. But I thought Patch was perfect for that. He just came on, actually, and was really calm, and did all the same stuff that Digger had been doing. Put the ball in the corner, dropped a goal every time he could, thought it might be on. And yeah, he could have been more of that kind of player, I think, if he'd had, if he'd been asked of him. Yeah, I agree. He's had, actually, luck with injury as well, though, Rhys Patchell. I think he's got a bit of that. I mean, he should have had more Wales caps, but injury is for shut-nails, in fact. It's not said enough. Rhys Patchell is quite a big fucking lad, for all I know. Yes. Yeah, yes. He's not Andre Pollard-type, but he's quite a big lad. He's very, very useful at this level. Honestly. Well, how old is he now? Is he 30? He's not even that fucking old, Gat. I was having a perfectly nice moment enjoying him being good in the Highlanders. That was a couple of months ago now. And then Josh Gardner from the North Texas Bay to be like, you know, he's not even that old where he could come back. And I was like, Josh, I really don't think my heart is, I don't think I can take that right now. Please leave me alone. Yeah, he's like 29, 30 years old. He's got loads of time playing left in him. You would be lucky to have him. I would be. He's actually 31 years old. Just looked it up now. But quite recently, I think. Yeah, it would have been 17th of May. Yeah. So he's just turned 31. Still young. Basically. He's got another World Cup cycle ahead of him, that's all I'm saying. Definitely. I'd love to see him at the Tri. And we would, Gatwin, we've talked about this before. Yeah, that's one of our top topics of conversation, I think, isn't it? Yeah, I would wish him nothing but well if he came back to Wales and played for you guys. I think that'd be great. Well, hopefully. We did have conversations with him before he went to D.C. then, so who knows? He must be willing to come back. I think it's just a question of, like, the money and whether any other regions can afford him. Well, I think that's a challenge, isn't it? You know, I don't know how much money he's earning at Highlanders, but it's more than he's earning at any of the regions. I can't imagine Rhys Platchell is earning an exorbitant amount of money, but I don't think you need to be in trouble for the regions to afford you, right? I reckon he's probably on £120,000, £150,000 a year, which would put him up to the rates of a lot of regions. Yeah, absolutely. Especially with all these budget cuts and smaller squad sizes. We'll talk about that a bit later, but I want to move quickly on to a bit of news. So, Dragons confirmed that the Forwards coaches Luke Narroway and Methan Davis are leaving at the end of the season. We expected that, didn't we, Gav? So, no surprises there. Sam Hobbs, who has been the Dragons academy head coach and the forwards coach for Newport IFC and the forwards coach for Wales in the 20s, is expected to be Dragons' new forwards coach next season. Any thoughts on those departures, Gav? I think it's probably the right time for him to move on. Yeah, I think they both put in a shift, but it wasn't achieving anything. I've got a lot of time for Methan. He's an Ed Vale boy. He's a good bloke, good coach, but it wasn't having the impact our forwards have looked massively underpowered for the last couple of seasons. Yeah, no, you're right. Luke Narroway did a really good job with our line. Now, according to the URC stats, we have got the best line out of the Forwards region, surprisingly. That's one area that has gone well for us. So, yeah, he's done a good job there. So, we expected them to leave and they are going to be leaving. And then another news then, Dragons have announced a pre-season friendly against Bristol Bears at Clifton RFC. So, that's going to be on Friday, September 6th, kick-off 7.30pm. Tickets will be available on the gate, £10 for adults and £5 for under-12s. That's good value, isn't it? Nice venue, Clifton. Nice ground. Proper old-school rugby ground. Yeah, I fancy that one. Right there, so that's the news. Then, like I say, it's only a little bit of news. Let's focus on our opposition, the Scarletts. Right then, Bjarne. Look, I fully recognise... My internet is falling apart. I fully recognise the irony for a Dragons supporter to be saying this, but the Scarlett season, it's really not gone well, has it? I mean, look at what's happened. Record defeats both home and away in the URC, losing to Black Lion in the Challenge Cup, becoming the first Welsh region... I know, sorry about this. Becoming the first Welsh region not to pick up a single point in a European campaign, so the Scarletts are making history for all the wrong reasons. There's been question marks about the coaching appointments and the running of the club. So, why do you think it's gone so patient for the Scarletts, and what's your thoughts on it? I've got to be honest, I have paid slightly less attention this season. Probably for the best, I would say. Yeah, which, as you run through those records, I don't feel all that bad about. I do think... This only occurred to me, actually, yesterday, looking at... Not... To the time I really thought about it properly. But probably more than any of the other Welsh squads, I think we had... Not even top-heavy, necessarily, but I think the budget cuts have been really difficult for a Scarlett squad that, at least quite recently, felt like it was competing at the top level. I'm not saying we were, but there was an ambition, too. There was a realistic expectation that maybe we might. And so we had numerous lions, never mind internationals, in that squad. And I don't think it was wrong to stick with players like Scott Williams or Foxy, or Halfpenny, or... I know you don't like Johnny McNichol, Gav, but we're not doing that now. Those were players who I've given a lot to the club. I do think there's always a balance between loyalty and sport being a business, but you have to be able to keep fans engaged when things are going badly. And one of the ways you do that is with fan favourites. But yeah, so I think our squad had got to a point where it just was not remotely in a good place for the kind of cuts we've had to put in. And honestly, I kind of think next season is also going to be pretty brutal, maybe slightly better than the experience that a lot of the younger players have got this season. But I would expect next season to... maybe we'll beat Black Lion next season. That'd be nice. But I don't feel super optimistic about the fixtures that I'll be tuning in for. Because yeah, I just think if you look at the players who are leaving, you know, like John Davis is one thing, right? Scott Williams is one thing. But like, Wynne Jones was a lion. Very rich, a starting test lion. That's right. He's off. Obviously, it's been ages, but he's off. I've forgotten, like, there's something like 20 players leaving. 15 players leaving, and there were already players who's left. And, you know, that's not... I think Rafa Fita will probably also be going, which is a shame because he's good. But I don't see realistically how we could afford his salary while playing. And reasonably say to everybody else, yeah, we're just going to pay you like peanuts. So yeah, I just think we haven't... a lot of our young players that have come through the last few years have either gone to other clubs to get game time or had some bad luck with injuries. And either way, they just haven't come on the way they needed to. And a lot of the more senior players just haven't, for whatever reason, been able to carry us. And it's kind of exactly what you'd expect, really, if you look, you know, our wage... I haven't written about Welsh Rugby for a long time. I don't know the statistics anymore, but we had the highest wage bill, I'm pretty sure. Yes, you had the biggest budget, yeah. And by some margin. It was 8 million at one point. It was 8 million, Scott, for the budget. Because there was, you know, this idea that Scarlets were like, well, you know, we won the Pro 12, we were like in the semifinals in Europe, we were kind of like, we had something that maybe could have got further. And that's been a while now, but you know. And it was that sort of that this is the core of the Wales side and whatever. And yeah, it hasn't come through, I think, for various reasons. And now we've just kind of been left with a squad that was past pruning, I think. I think Scarlets, sorry, I think Scarlets' story is like Wales' story almost, isn't it? You had this core of players who were overachieved. And then all of a sudden, they were old and the guys around them weren't as good. And everybody really wanted to make it happen because you want one team to be good, especially, you know, I would hope that actually everybody would rethink this in the light of the last couple of seasons. But like, especially if you look at Ireland as the model, right? And you're like, you just need one really good team. And then it sort of trickles down. Actually, it turns out that's a terrible idea. But so I think a lot of people in Welsh rugby kind of wanted Scarlets to be that team. And it wasn't totally unreasonable. I don't think it's the best way to do it, but it wasn't totally unreasonable to be like, one strong region to support the national team. And we build around it. But the Iris model works, doesn't it? And I'm not even convinced the Iris, you know, because Munster achieve well as well. It's not all stuck within South Dublin. No, but I think Munster achieve well despite the Irish model. I think Munster achieve well because they're so, they're so well rooted in the community around them. I think having a budget twice as big as any Welsh region probably helps as well. Oh, yeah. But Munster also has private investors. Yes. And that's why, I mean, you know, they have, I don't think the Irish model necessarily works. I just, I think it looks like it, it looks, well, it works better than the Welsh one. I think we can say that very easily. I think all models work better than the Welsh model. I'm not even sure we could describe the Welsh model as a model. Seems to just sort of be like a pile of clothes. You know, it's like my laundry basket, which is just a pile. There's some sort of order if you root around in there. I think Scarlet's a bit like Welsh rugby as well. It's, Scarlet's have been the best region for a long time. Them and the Ospreys have been the best two regions for a long time. And it's a bit like Welsh rugby was. Well, it'll always be like this. Why do we need to make hay? The sun will shine forever. And I think there's also this idea, you know, like, oh, like Llanelli were good and then the Scarlet's were good, so it's fine. Like that sort of system. And also, I talk about like 50 odd years. This is not like an ongoing dinner stay. I think, no. In the same way that I think, like, I would say, we made a joke about this off air before, but every time we talk about cutting a region or merging a region, the fact that it's Ospreys that get suggested to be cut, or like merge with someone else, I think is criminally unfair. I was like, the only one that really tried to commit to the regional system properly, I think. And then they just constantly get sued for it. I understand the reasoning around it, but I do think it's just very unfair. I know what you're saying, but to be fair, it was Y11, wasn't it, that instigated the merger? It was them that went to the Scarlet's, wasn't it? It was them that went to Cardiff. They kind of instigated that themselves. It's not that. I mean, it's more like, it's more that it comes up quite often, like, oh, well, you can't, you know, if you have to cut a region, you can't cut Cardiff and you can't cut Llanelli. Why? It's just all the Ospreys. That's all it always is. It's just always the Ospreys. It's just really unfair that they're the one that, really fully committed to this shitty model, because they were told it was what we were doing. But that was the problem. A reasonably good job of it, actually. And yeah, they just kind of get shafted for it. That was the problem, the WRU were like, well, we're doing this regional model. And then Cardiff said, well, we're a region. Okay. And then Scarlet said, well, we're a region. Okay. And Newport said, we're a region, even though Newport did involve the dragon, you know, the Gwent side as well. And then Ospreys were left going, hang on a second, it's that meme, isn't it, with Jennifer Aniston and, well, what do you guys mean? And they stand on it, so in the Cardiff and Scarlet are stand-alone teams tonight, then, let's be honest. But then if that was going to be the model, that should have been the model, and there should have been four stand-alone teams. They've tried creating something which is neither one thing or the other. Yeah. I mean, I think we could relitigate this forever. And it is a Welsh Ruby podcast, so what else would we talk about? But I think for me, a lot of what was said about the women's team, after the fairly unimpressive six nations, about, which, you know, this is a different context, obviously, because the women's game in Wales was basically just willfully destroyed, actually, in a much more active way than just kind of making some bad, neglectful decisions. But this thing of, like, we need to put pathways back in, we need to have, it's not just about paying people higher salaries or salaries at all, we need the whole picture at the bottom of the professional kind of pipeline to be better, which is not the same as having the grassroots game supported. And I think a lot of what was said then was, I don't particularly trust that the WRA was actually going to do it, but the stuff they identified, I think, is important. If the Welsh regions are going to be anything, what they have to tap into is the fact that it's still a very commonly played game for kids in this country, and they have to make the youth academies really good, and they have to make, they have to find a way to negotiate the lure of going over the bridge, I think, because you can't stop people wanting to go for a better education or more money where there are opportunities. So we need to find some way to make our academies as attractive, and then have something for the players that still want to leave for school or university or whatever it is, so they can come back and they don't get captured by the England under-20s. There are independent schools in Wales, but for some reason we don't involve them in, you know, in the same way that schools like Millfield just soak up Welsh kids, you know, and have done that for decades. Millfield were doing it when I was in school, Gareth Edwards went to Millfield, you know, those schools have been doing it forever. They're all Welsh independent schools, but we don't seem to use them, and if you look at the Leinster model, which is... There's also, I mean, I think the Leinster model is the cluster of private schools that they have in Dublin is absolutely unreal, like Wales, and the thing is Wales culturally couldn't create this, and I'm not sure for, it's never seemed to me that saying to a lot of the kind of Welsh 14, 15, 16 year olds, you can go to this Welsh independent school as part of your rugby contract would necessarily be that appealing to them. Like, a lot of players do go to their English schools across the border, obviously, but an awful lot don't, I think, because I'm not sure that culturally it's that appealing to everyone. We need to have more than one thing is what I'm saying. If you're in a comp in Merthyr or Aberdare and someone said, you can come to this... I'm not over-idealising the quality of the education, so don't get me wrong. I just mean, I don't think that's a sticking plaster to just be like, we'll sponsor a scholarship to a good school for you. Like, that has to be an option, clearly, because it is an option. It's not the only route, I don't think. But it's not the only route. There need to be other things that we can do, and I think we need to really take that seriously about, like, retaining talent at the earlier stages. This is really obnoxiously boring, but I used to work for a startup in Copenhagen, and it was lots of, like, customer relations management stuff. Just dreadful. Lovely people, boring content. But one of the things they're obsessed with, right, is, like, you have to find ways to retain people, and you need different options for that. And that is a much better model than just bringing in new people all the time. And I think, actually, there's an element of this, like, we need to look at 14 to 21, why are players leaving in the men and the women's game, and how can we keep them? That's not just the salaries, because there are an awful lot, I think, of players who are more than good enough, who would be willing to play for not very much money, actually, by rugby standards, for the Welsh regional side, because they want to play for their team. They want to play rugby. It's enough money, and there are enough other things about it that can help them. And maybe that's, like, education on the side, not so much the Nigel Rae business model of a house on the side, but, you know. But that's always happened, you know. I've played for clubs, much lower level, and who would give jobs and houses to South African guys to come and play in the UK. Right, but what I mean is something slightly more sustainable for everyone involved. Like, we should be saying, we'll support you while you do your sports science, like, undergraduate degree or your master's degree. Like, we'll get you training in this other thing. Like, if you, from a young age, think you want to start coaching, then great. So that players kind of have this thing of, like, well, I'm not risking my health and my, like, livelihood on this game. It doesn't pay very well, and the vibes are fucking atrocious. And, yeah, it's the Exeter model, isn't it? You know, they go to Exeter, they go to Exeter Uni and they play for the Chiefs. There is a little bit of that, you know. I think Exeter pay them more than everyone cops on do, to be fair. But a little bit of that, yeah. Like, can we do this in Cardiff? Because we should be able to. Can we do other things in Stanislao and Swansea? Because we should be able to. Well, you've got good sports universities in Cardiff and Swansea. You've got Met. You've got Swansea. You've got, what's one in Carmarthen? Trinity in Carmarthen. Because there's just, we can't solve this by throwing money at it, I think. We've tried that and it didn't work. Well, it's not sustainable. You have to create the culture. And we don't have the money. You have to create the culture. And as much as Leinster do have an awful lot of money, and we can't pretend that it's fairy dust that's creating what they're creating in Leinster, but they also do have systems. And by the time the identikit 19-year-olds are arriving at Leinster, they've already been coached by Leinster coaches in the Leinster way. Yeah, it's much more kind of, it's a sort of joke about the Leinster pathways, but, you know, it is a thing. They do all that. I think Munster is a really good example as well, actually, because Munster have this thing of like a lot of local talent who are really like, yeah, I want to walk out at Southern Park. And that, for me, is like worth all the sacrifice. And they have the universities that players can go to. And then they also have this extra level of like South African players think Munster is really cool, so they're all really happy to go there for like hilarious money that a private investor is paying for. But there is, you know, there are little bits of Wales has networks like that, that it could tap into a little bit, actually. It's not the same degree, but, you know, Cardiff can bang on about their, you know, former All Blacks. First, they can bang on about beating the All Blacks. I'm sure Dragons have the Falafel family. You've all beat the All Blacks as well, believe it or not. You've all did beat the All Blacks. We just mention it less. Yes. I actually didn't know that. I was trying to give you that. Sadly, the wider Falafel family all went to other places, you know, two of them, two of them played for England. What I mean is, Welsh rugby has a cultural cachet in other places. I think we could start saying, like, you know, we want young squads of, like, mostly local players and we're going to try and supplement that as much as we can with with kind of like players in the sort of Hadley Parks or Johnny McNick model of like, I actually, I want something a bit wider than Super Rugby. I'm willing to come over here for like a year or two to see Europe and kind of layer the teams and stuff like that. And also, I honestly, I mean, I thought this at the start of the season, and clearly Scarlett's did not take my opinion on board, but I honestly think all the Welsh regions should just be like, for the next two seasons, we just sack off the IRC, basically, and we focus on Europe and we try and have, like, some magic for the fans and some kind of, like... I thought you were going to suggest joining... I did as well. I was shocked. I thought I wasn't expecting that opinion. What do you think of the European and as a product? Do you like it? Do you buy into it? I think it's a good league. It's irritatingly hard to watch from over here. Well, I suppose expat fans in Denmark aren't their primary model. No. I think it's quite fun. I think it's a little bit... It can be a little bit chaotic. You can't really dip in and out of it, or you can either commit to it fully or dip in very lightly, I kind of think. You can't kind of half-ass it, because then you're just like, oh no, everything's changed. Like, I thought Benetton was top of the league, and while that did seem weird, it was also a thing, and now what's happened? But I think it's quite good. I think the problem with the Welsh regions is always going to be the same. Like, they're not good enough to win it, and therefore it's quite underwhelming. We were good enough to win it, and have won it. So it's about how we did. Well, some of us have, yeah. Well, we nearly did win it. We came second, man. Nearly 2000, but still. We won it twice, and came second. Yeah, you won the first Celtic League, didn't you? Was it 2004? And then you won it, obviously, for 12. Yeah, and then came second the year after. But what I mean is, I think, this is the thing I say as a Burnley fan, right? As a Burnley football fan. The reservations on your renegation, by the way. I'm sorry, but since the company's gone to buy a Mooneck as well. Yeah. A little bit soon for him, I think, although it's also quite clear that he is that calibre of manager in the future. I think that's a bad appointment right now, I think, though. I'd be surprised, to be honest. I thought he was a little bit smarter, and I thought he would have stayed at Burnley for another season, at least. Or another season and a half, really. But it's quite hard to turn down, and I think he does know the German League. I mean, yeah, it's a weird one. We all thought he would leave easily within four years. And last season was not the one that's just finished, the previous one. It was the championship season, yeah. The championship season was extraordinary. So I think most Burnley fans are kind of like, well, we'll take it because that wasn't really great. After 10 years of quite miserable rugby. Football, sorry. But what I'm going to say is what my... Back to the topic. Well, something that quite a lot of Burnley fans, most Burnley fans I speak to, whether I know them well or not, have said prior to that company season in the championship was what they really wanted was a cup run, because they spent every season slugging it out, avoiding relegation by the skin of our teeth, playing quite boring football. And there was just no joy in the season at all. And when Dykes was the manager, he would always sacrifice the League Cup and the FA Cup. I don't know what they call those now. I don't care. That's what they're called. He would always sacrifice them for the relegation fight. I think that was understandable, but it was quite miserable. And so I think it struck me immediately when they announced that without cutting the budget, there's no way any of the regions can compete on two fronts with those squads, because they haven't been able to compete on two fronts with the squads they had before, apart from one season for the Scots. And so I think rather than focus on the League and sacrifice the Cup, I don't know why we aren't focusing on the Cup, actually, and sacrificing the League, at least for a few seasons. So the fans get some magic, the players get some, like, experience of winning. I understand what you're saying, but I don't even think we've got the squads, even if we just focused on Europe. Oh, I don't think any of us would be winning in Europe. Don't get me wrong. But like, Ospreys, actually, if Ospreys had fought on one front this season, they could have put something together. And the fact that they kind of were just about good enough to try both, then really fucks them with the squad that they had. But I think if they got into the season and, you know, like a magic ball and been like, here's where we'll be in February, let's just pick one or the other. They could have made a semi-final or a final, and they wouldn't have beat the Sharks. They wouldn't have won, I think. But a Cup run to the final is not a nothing thing. No, no. And we said the same about Dragons, didn't we, Damien? Like, it'd be nice to have a Cup run. Because how much Cardiff fans loved their little kiddie Cup win a few years ago. It was so nice for them. But I've slipped up, wasn't I? Because I get what you're saying, though, Ruth, because it's highly likely that all four Welsh regions are going to be in the Challenge Cup next season, the second year. And let's be honest, we have got more of a chance of success than that. Because as you mentioned, Cardiff have won the Challenge Cup twice. I think Ospreys could go, we could go deep. I think all four teams could go deep in our competition. So yeah, there is more of a chance of winning the Challenge Cup. Of course, it's not a serious competition. Of course, it's slightly undignified. I'd love to win it. It's just a milk away. I will knock off the leash and prioritise the Tier 2 tournament. Like, yeah, it's a little bit undignified. Have you looked at Welsh Rugby? Everything about it is undignified. There is no dignity to be found here. We might as well just face what we have. But that's the way we are, though, isn't it? It's not even just a flippant thing of like, you know, if you think about Italy men and the conversations that we've been having relentlessly for the last five years of like, is it better to give young players the experience if the experience is primarily losing? And I think the thing is about like a lot of those Italy players is like, it ignored the fact that they spent a lot of time winning under the age grade levels and ignored the fact that they like actually did win for Benetton quite a lot of them quite often or the French team. So they weren't just entirely losing. The Welsh players are basically entirely losing at this point. All of their experience is getting record points things put on them or in the case of Ospreys, like knowing that they're good enough on the day, but not having the squad for it to really be their day when it matters. And I just think we could say to the players like, look, we're just going to we're going to give everything we have for Europe for the next two seasons and you guys are going to get the experience of playing against some really cool teams and some really cool players. And hopefully we will win enough games that we make the knockouts and we get some experience in these young players that also involves winning. I think we get we give them some experience that doesn't send them to a therapist. Like if we put them through. It won't be for everyone. All four teams probably can't do it. But I genuinely think certainly if I were, if for my sins I were a Cardiff Blues fan or Dragons or as I'm a Scarlet, I'd be quite happy with the coaches just saying we're going to focus on Europe. I'm really trying to get these players up to scratch and then we will come back to the ERC when we've got the actual capacity to do it. You know, we've got players who played games and we've got some money to buy in the extra players and we've created squads so we know what we need rather than, you know, this kind of freefall, cutting off bricks from your leg as you fly out of an airplane approach that would take up the moment. It's a tough league though, isn't it, the ERC. And for all the criticism it gets, you know, it does get a lot of criticism in the ERC. It's a tough league, I think. Since the South Africans especially came into it, it's bloody tough. There are no easy games now in the ERC. Even Scarlets beat Zebra. Well, they have improved since. They beat the Sharks, you know. It wasn't nailed on that we would beat Zebra. In fact, at half time it looked like we might. It's a tough league. I think it's a little hard for some kind of... I imagine it's very hard for England fans, like rugby fans in England, to get their head around ERC because that kind of tournament structure is quite different than any other kind of English sport. And the same for, like, obviously it has been this way for Wales fans for a long time now, but still. The primary thing is, like, English football, I guess, quite hard. But it's actually... You're better than the premiership, I'll say that. It's way better than the premiership, the standards. But is this URC equals best league, as you keep seeing on X and Twitter? Do you believe that, is the URC equals best league? Because I think top 14 is, personally, but what do you think? I mean, I always feel like the URC equals best league is slightly tongue-in-cheek, is it not? Oh, I don't think so. The Irish swear by it. The Irish really do swear by it. And the Saracens, they love it now. Saracens started off as tongue-in-cheek. I think it depends on... Where would I want to go to a live game? Top 14, absolutely. But just a random run-of-the-mill fixture drawn out of a hat from one of the leagues, I think I'd probably rather an URC one, actually. You would much rather see something like Sharks versus, I don't know, Sharks versus Munster. Sharks versus Munster. And it was Northampton versus Sale, wasn't it? Yeah. And also, like, yeah, you might get Toulouse versus La Rochelle in the top 14, but you might also get, like, Turgid versus Turgid, and quite often do. If you get Toulon versus Montpellier, that could be a very hard game to watch in France. So I think it sort of depends what you want. And I also think the run-in the last two seasons and this season from the bit I've caught, you know, obviously I have no personal investment in it, but from a fan point of view, in a more general sense, it's dramatic. Yeah, it's interesting, the playoffs and everything now, isn't it? It's dramatic. It's not kind of, you know, it's not that, oh, well, we just know that Toulouse and Saracen are going to be in the top four sort of thing. It's not... The players you see are really good. There's always some kind of, like, mad whimsical element, I think, actually, which I quite like. Yeah, I wouldn't go, I would not go so far as to say it's the best league, but I think it's a lot better than most Welsh Rugby fans describe. And me and Gav say, you ask, it was perfectly fine, don't we, Gav? That's how I'm saying it. I think it's slightly better than perfectly fine. I reckon if any of the Welsh, if the Ospreys, if the Ospreys had, what was it, Squidge really had this idea that, like, the Ospreys-Leinster game was a potential banana skin for Leinster, just because of the way the fixture fell and, like, they might put up a different shape. And in the end, obviously, they got prison shamed. But had that gone, had that gone Ospreys way, and Ospreys was, like, seriously in with a shot of making the eight and a kind of, like, possible magical, like, fairytale playoff, I think next season we would all feel a little bit differently about in Wales. I think for us as Dragons fans, I'm talking from me and Jamie as opposed to yourself, for us as Dragons fans, I think at the minute it's difficult to get too excited because, you know, at the start of the season we were being optimistic and we predicted we'd finish 12th. Yeah, I think that was you, Gav, actually. I don't think I finished. Did I predict 12th? No, you said 13th, I think. Yeah, I think I might. I think if you'd asked me what I would have predicted for Scarlets, I might have said, I might have said 13th. I think maybe I would have thought we'd be above Blues, you and Zebrae. Well, if you're predicting 13th in a league of 16, it's not great, is it? So, in terms of Scarlets, can we talk about the situation? What about the current Scarlets team? Are there any players that you actually think are, you know, are going to take Scarlets on? Yes, I think I like Dan Davis. I think he hasn't kicked on the way we hoped he would, you know, when we let Jack Morgan go, to be honest with you, which was a decision I found very stressful. But I do like Dan Davis. I think he's had some really bad luck with injury, but I think he still could be a very good player. I think, you know, young Yohan Lloyd, who's not that young anymore, and young Sam Fee, who's also not that young anymore, are exciting players. If we can give them a pack... And a brain. If either of them had a brain, it would help. I'm sort of actually fine with them not having a brain. The problem, I think, is the scrum half not having a brain. And to that end, it does upset me that Ciarán Hardy's going. But I think if we had a slightly more effective pack, you know, I like Joe Roberts. I think he's a lovely player, actually. Yeah. I've only seen a little bit of the lad that we've signed from Nottingham, who they're sort of trying to hype. Ellis Mee. Yeah, Ellis Mee. Welsh qualifier. Welsh qualifier. I've seen a little... I've seen some, like, highlight clips, and he looks like he could, you know... You can see why a Scarlets team would want him. He's come from Nottingham, you know, less managed expectations. This is what I mean. I find it a little bit weird that we're hyping this poor child up so much when he's come from Nottingham. I think, actually, Alec Hepburn's coming next season, and there's rumours of Henry Thomas, the Welsh. That's right. So that, I think, with Ryan Elias coming back, a proper, like, a more serious front row. And then, if we could keep by Profica for a season, I think then the younger lads now in the backs have had a bit of time to get to know each other. Because I think this is the thing that's just been very haphazard. Like, you can really overplay the cohesion thing. And I know because, like, Ireland buy into it a lot, and then it sort of doesn't work when they need it to. People are people are reasonably, sort of, quite suspicious of it. But I interviewed Ben Darwin about that years ago. And the way that he framed it, I think, is actually just, is much more, like, compelling. And it's not quite the, like, this will save everything sort of thing. And, like, I simply must pick a four-year-old from Leinster over an IRC-winning Munster player. That's actually kind of not what it's going for. But I think the essential point of, like, players need time to gel together. Partnerships need time to gel together. And if you are constantly dropping and changing, young players, especially, will really, really struggle. And so, yeah, basically, I hope that next season we could get Samsi at 10, Johan at 15, Joe Roberts at 13. I think that with a pack in front of them, then you could, maybe we'll score more than one try a game. Maybe we will not be on the back of record points losses. And maybe we will beat Black Lion and win one game in Europe. Fingers crossed. That would be a successful season, wouldn't it? Let's look ahead to Judgment Day this weekend. So, Scarlets versus Dragons at the Cardiff City Stadium. Kick-off, three o'clock. The referee is Craig Evans, Welsh ref. Now, for some reason, I don't quite know why we've done this, but Dragons have done a Gatland. You've ruined the team, yeah. 48 hours early. I don't know why we've done it, but we have. We have named our team ready for Saturday. So, I'll quickly run through it. Start with the backs. So, Ewan Ross, he keeps his place at full-back. Then it's Rheo Dyer, Joe Westwood, and now you're knowing, Chris Hollis will read. And we have a turn from Rodri Williams at Scrimmhar. He's captain for this game. And then forwards, you've got Rodri Jones, Brodie Cochran, Chris Coleman, Ben Carter, Matthew Screech, Brian Woodman, Tame Basham, and Arne Wainwright. And then on the bench, you've got friends of the pod, James Benjamin, Rodrigo Martinez, Dimitri Arhip, George Knott, Dan Lyddiart, Shea Hope, Steph Hughes, and CEO Tomkinson. So, Gav, what are your thoughts on that set? Because to me, when I look at it, when you see the guys like Ewan Ross, Joe Westwood, Brian Woodman, Brodie Cochran, Shea Hope, it does feel like a nod to the future, but it's combined with some experience. So, what do you think of it? I think he's given it thought, doesn't he? Because there are all the young lads there. There are all the, like you say, Brodie Cochran and people having a start. But then you've got the experience, you've got Tame, you've got Wainwright. They've thought about doing the backs as well. Rodri will bring a bit of sense to it. And then the bench is looking strong with Arhip and I'm trying to remember who else is on the bench. Dan Lyddiart. Dan Lyddiart. Former Scarlet. Such a calmly competent player. He never really lit things up, so I can sort of see why we let him go. But he's a very reassuringly competent player, Steph Hughes. Very solid club player. He's done the same for us. He's not exciting and we've got better centres coming through and coming in, but he's always there. Yeah, he's not going to fuck it up for you, which, you know, in the Welsh region is actually not our thing. Or we'll do it ourselves. We find different ways of doing it. I can't believe the track at all. Our absolute unwillingness to show any form of self-discipline is our greatest weakness. Yeah, I've got to say, I've paid even less attention to the Dragons' season than the Scarlets, but the things I have then have not filled me with confidence. We are long-list enemies. That's the problem. We make so many mistakes. Yeah. Well, because, again, it's a young team and they panic. It's easy to say you've got to be more disciplined, because obviously it's like a sort of bare minimum requirement. But also, like, discipline requires other things. You lose your discipline when other things are going badly. And the point that's always missed is that our disciplines aren't good enough. There are times, not like the stupid stuff, like Dane Black's yellow card or red card the other week, kicking the ball at the worst point, when he kicked the ball away. But there are times when you think, oh, that ball's out, I can go for that. And your brain kicks in, an instinct kicks in, and you go for a ball, and then all of a sudden there's a whistle and the arm's up, and you're like, oh, Christ, oh, apparently it wasn't. He slapped the ball over Tipwick's hands, didn't he? Back. He came in from an offside position, slapped the ball over Tipwick's hands. Really, really stupid. I don't know why he did it, but it's been taken out of letters, you know? This is the thing, though, like, I mean, it's really stupid, right? And you sit there and you watch it, and you're like, well, that's dumb as fuck. I wouldn't do that. Well, we would, actually. They're too weak. They're really frustrated, though. Things aren't going well. You're exhausted, you're defending. I would definitely lose my temper and do something dumb like that if I had to play in the Dragons team or the Scarlets team. The reason I'm not a professional rugby player, obviously. We should have cracked more from them. But I do think there is a, like, discipline is both. That's the thing you can kind of control, and we should, it's like fitness. We should be sort of saying to teams, like, the bare minimum here is that you're fit enough and you don't do stupid shit. But equally, when you've just been losing all season, when you've been tackling all season for fuck all reward, I can see why you just lose your shit and do dumb stuff and give away, like, unforgivably dumb penalties. The vicious circle of it. What's the loss here? Like, oh, we're going to lose another game. If I pull this off, maybe we win. If I don't, we're going to lose anyway. That's the problem. I also find it hugely frustrating. I know, but we're talking about the same things every week. We're kind of repeating ourselves. And that's what's really frustrating. And I'm conscious of doing that. This is boring for us. It's boring for the listener when you're talking about the same things. I mean, discipline and lack of leadership. I mean, I play bingo with Gav, there will be two dragons, bingo, I always cross off. Lack of leadership, that's Gav's favourite word. But 20 penalties against the Ospreys in our last game. You can't concede that amount of penalties expected with a game. It's so frustrating, Gav, isn't it? Yeah, you could make a drinking game of the things we say, and it's not because we're boring. It's just because it's the same things coming up. You could do it for Scarlet's games as well. And this is sort of, again, this is what I mean about the focusing on Europe thing, because I think you haven't seen like, look, there's six, eight games. That's what we're trying to win here, actually. We're not trying to win six or eight games in the league. We're trying to win them in a more finite thing. It's a bit easier to kind of go all in. And you just win one or two. And then it rolls through, you know, momentum's an overrated thing, but like, good vibes do help with stuff like discipline, actually, and winning a few games in a row, rather than like three over the course of a season, when you play the other Welsh regions and separate, you know, like, I just think there's something that would improve a lot of those things. And then you get, then players learn leadership. And they learn, they get positive rewards for keeping their discipline. And I just think it would help a little bit. I'd like to see one of the Welsh regions give it a go next season. Yeah, agree. Yeah. I think it's a good, I think it's a good sign, considering, I did check, you have a load of players injured. But that's been a problem all season. We've had such a lack of injuries. We've had 20, 20 injuries most weeks, all season. I mean, welcome to the Scarlets and Welsh experience of rugby, I think. Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's a shame Eddie at sea isn't available, because he's injured, he did his ankle injury. We've really missed guys like Lawrence Fairbrother and Angus O'Brien. You know, they've been the important players for us, but it has been a bit of a struggle. Have you ever been to Judgment Day, Rhian, by any chance? No, I was going to go Covid year, and obviously did not. And I did think about it this year, but I didn't know when the whole, like, finishing the PhD thing would be. So I was kind of, I would, I would like to go. Although I always feel like the vibes are actually really depressing. It does feel a bit like that this year, particularly with the doom and gloom around Welsh rugby, the fact that all four sides, maybe apart from our Spurs that don't well, but you know, we are in that slump. The general kind of gloom. And nothing to play for. Although Scarlet seem to be consistently bad on Judgment Day. That's good news for us. We must have won some games on Judgment Day, but like, I associate Judgment Day with Scarlet losing, and losing to Dragons, which I don't enjoy. But no, I would, I would kind of like to go maybe next season, just because I think it's, it's a really nice, everybody can get together in the city sort of thing. That's, the idea with it is really good, I think. That's what we're doing, Gav, isn't it? We are indeed. And I'm trying to arrange to meet with Grav from Rock and Roll as well. It'll be a Welsh rugby podcast. No, I would love to try and do something. I also really wanted to get over for Wales versus Italy, women actually in the Six Nations, but exactly the same problem. But I would like to get over for a few of those next year and just try and, yeah, sort of enjoy the community aspect of it, because that's the nicest thing for me. Yeah, it's a good day out, like, if you're meeting up with friends, it is a good day out, even though it will be a bit of doom and gloom surrounding Welsh rugby. It's what you make of it, isn't it? You know, if you win. And I think it's reasonably, it's reasonably priced as well. I think it cost me £55 for me and my boy, you know, to watch two games of professional rugby. It's costing us £140 to watch two games, the Wales, South Africa, Barbarians, Fiji games. And I know which ones are going to be slightly less painful. Absolutely. So, Gav, Dragons have the opportunity to do the double over the Scarlets. Firstly, they beat them on New Year's Day, I don't know if you remember, we, Sam Costello, missed the conversion right in front of the pubs, which proved to be... No, I completely blanked it from my mind. So, thank you for bringing it back. No problem. When was the last time, Gav, Dragons did the double over the Scarlets? You know I like asking you these types of questions. And I never know what I say. This is what I need to prepare. If you listen to the Rat Podcast, you would have known. This is how I know you don't listen to the Rat Podcast, because they've talked about this. You wouldn't be listening. He hasn't been listening. I listen to Rat. I listen to Rat on a Friday. I get him every time, Ree. I get him every time. I'm going to say 2018. Ree, do you want to guess when was the last time Dragons did the double over the Scarlets for a year? I think it's more recent. I think maybe 2021. Nope, you're both wrong. It was 2007. So, I did sort of feel like it's either absolutely f*****g ages ago. 2007 slash 2008 season. That was the last time that Dragons did the double over the Scarlets. But you've won the last two, haven't you? Because you beat us in Judgment Day last year. Yeah, so since 2019, we've played the Scarlets and we haven't lost. Because before then, we've played each other a number of times. And we only won our first Judgment Day game in 2019. But since then, we have beat the Scarlets at Judgment Day. So, it has become a good fixture for us this way. We seem to have raised our game a little bit. Yeah, this is why I associate it with such despair. Because it's not just losing. It's losing to the Dragons. Oh, Scarlets fans are going to hate losing to us again. If we do the double over, it's going to be really sad. I mean, honestly, I kind of think you will win. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a decent piece. As I say, let's do predictions, right? We're going to do our score predictions. Well, yeah, let's do it now. So, I said on the rap god, Dragons by two. You don't have to give an exact score prediction. Thank you. See, someone did their homework. I'll make you do that. Thank you for listening and supporting me. Yeah, Dragons by two. That was my prediction. Gav? I'm going to go mad. Dragons by nine. Dragons by nine. Oh, fuck. Nine? Yeah, nine. Why? Why do you think nine? Well, there's no logic to it. Maybe not. I'm just, I'm like Noel Edmonds. I've called out to the universe and the universe has answered me. I hope you're right. Don't get me wrong. I think it's great if you're right. But Dragons by nine. I mean, we haven't seen the Scarlets team yet, so we don't know. What do you think, Debbie? What's your prediction? How do you see this going? My immediate instinct was Dragons by four. But I think, I wouldn't go as far as Gav. But I think possibly Dragons by six, I think. It's a sort of silly pop psychology thing, but I always love Gatlin naming the team early because I felt like it just indicated such confidence in the camp and the team. And a little bit feel, just Dragons, I think, yeah. You keep being as on Judgment Day. You beat us earlier in the season. It's not like either of the very good, but you guys feel like you're going into it with a little bit more like, we know how to win this game sort of thing. And I don't think Scarlets do also. But you did win, see, but you are coming into this game off a backer, which Dragons haven't done, to be fair. So you do have a bit of momentum, don't you? I think that's the, this is the kind of thing where I think momentum is limited. One game against Zebra, I don't think. I'm catching the straws a little bit, admittedly, yeah. But I've just tried to look at it logically. You've got the Scarlets points to do. So what do you think? I mean, the Scarlets have good enough players that I think it's perfectly possible we could show up on the day and win. Oh yeah, I would agree with that. You'll think it's very likely. I think Dragons by four is more likely than the Scarlets to win. Wow, a full house. If Dan Costello wants to do a full house to redeem himself, you know, that'd be nice. I'm actually going to watch the rugby this weekend, so. How do you watch it over in Denmark, then, Lee? Because how do you keep on top of the URC? Because I'm guessing they don't have URC on their Danish sports channels, do they? Or do you stream it? How do you keep it? Well, so they do, actually. Because five players are Scandinavian. Oh, of course. Yeah, yeah. But actually, when I lived in Copenhagen, I had a sports pub that I used to go all the time. And it was one of those very quickly self-fulfilling things. I went once because they put on a Scarlets game for me. And I was like, fucking hell, I couldn't get pubs in England to put a Wales game on for me. Never mind a Scarlets one. I'm like, this is great. And so because they did that, I would just always go. And then basically every week, they'd be like, oh, really, your game's on the screen down there. You're in the corner. And so I always used to watch games there, unless I was well enough to go out. I don't really have moved from Copenhagen now. I live in Aarhus, which is Denmark's second city. And the Irish pub here is a lot less wooling than my sports pub in Copenhagen was. So they put Europe on. And they'll put the knockouts on. But I have to basically get a kind of, there's literally nothing else on in the sporting world. What about Six Nations? Can you get Six Nations on there? Yeah, yeah, no, I always go and watch Six Nations. Yeah, there's loads of pubs, for sure, that's fine. Oh, that's good. But yeah, but the club rugby that's not Europe is a lot harder to get in this city. So yeah, I usually just watch it on the laptop. Yeah, I had wondered. Do you know, I always wanted to go to Denmark, right? And every time I tell people I really want to go, they all say the same thing to me. People say, oh, it's very expensive. Is it true? It is very expensive. It is very expensive, truthfully. Okay. But it's one of those where it's like, well, it's not expensive if you live here because you get paid. Ah, okay. So what I would say is it's not like living in London where the cost of living and your salaries just don't really overlap. And didn't even really like seven years ago when I lived in London, like even before the last few years. Whereas Denmark, it is expensive to visit. But to actually live here, it's fine. Like I don't make a lot of money by their standards and I make more than enough. So yeah, basically, if you do visit, you want to let me know and I'll tell you where all the cheap places are. Oh, brilliant. Any Weatherspoons over there in Denmark by any chance? There is not a Weatherspoon, no. We do have some, they have a whole series of, it is legal to smoke here in some places inside. And the places where it's legal to smoke, basically they're really cheap places. So it's like three quid for a beer. So if you don't mind all of your clothes stinking of smoke and your eyes hurting the next morning, then there's plenty of cheap places actually. But there's also some other, I'll send you to the good pubs if you ever come over. Have you ever been to Denmark, Gav? I haven't, no, no. It's very expensive. It is one of the first things that people always ask me as well. And I'm like, yes, it is. Every time I go to Denmark, they're like, oh, it's very expensive, mate. It's really expensive out there. I've been to Sweden, which was eye-wateringly expensive. Sweden, I think is a little bit cheaper than Denmark. Denmark, Norway will make you just cry and never recover. Sweden is a little bit cheaper compared with Denmark, I think. Like in terms of the currencies, I don't know how it would work with pounds. It's also easier to buy booze in Denmark than Sweden and Norway. They have some very strange rules for alcohol purchasing there. Oh, okay. So mine's the party Scandinavian country. Just, you know, invest your money in something that's not lottery-based. And then when you reap your fortune, you can come out for three days on the last in Denmark. My club got offered to play a Danish club about five, six years ago. And I thought, I think it'd be a really good idea. But you are aware that it's about six, seven pounds of beer and you complain about paying four pounds of beer for that. It's a bit more these days as well. We might not go there then. Hey, can I just say, a mate of mine is playing... This is a slight stretch, but I'm going to say them. He's playing sevens for Denmark women. Like she played earlier this month, I forgot which weekend it was, in the Nordic tournament. But I think she's also going to play later this year in the Euro sort of version as well. It's really cool. She was like the only other woman I knew in Copenhagen. Who already liked rugby. Who wasn't introduced to it by me. She was a pre-existing rugby fan. And I went back to the city earlier this month. And yeah, I was going to see her and she was like, oh, I can't because I'm training to play sevens for Denmark. That's really cool. Oh, wicked. That's cool. That's really cool. Brilliant. Okay. I think we'll leave it there for this week. It feels like we've covered quite a lot today. It's quite a wide range of topics. Bjarne, thank you very much for joining us. It's been a pleasure. If our listeners want to follow you on... No problem. Thank you. If our listeners want to follow you on social media, where can they find you? Still on X? I'm still... I don't think I've ever actually called it that, but yeah. Formerly known as Twitter. Yeah, it's formerly known as Twitter for my sins. And I'm at 3 Garth Jones. I'm sure these guys will tag me so you can find me. I'm on Blue Sky if you're on there, but I don't think many people are. I come off it now because... Yeah, it was good when I first joined, then nobody posted, so I deleted my account. I think it's really good for academics who are online. I'm not really... It's not good for me, no. So yeah, it fulfills one of my things, but absolutely not the other, no. Every... Twitter is the best place to find me. I don't really post very often, but you will occasionally see me snark about things, I guess, if you follow me. Or really good stuff about the Roman Empire. Or say really good stuff about the Roman Empire. That's true, yeah. Oh, lovely stuff. Okay, so make sure if you're listening to this, then give Rhiannon a follow. Garth, thank you as always. I will see you on Saturday. I'm looking forward to that. Let's hope the dragons win. And thank you to our listeners. Thank you to our lovely listeners. Please subscribe to the party if you haven't done already. Spread the word, we are Dragon's Mates, and we'll be back next week. So until then, take care and goodbye. Bye. Thank you for listening to the Dragon's Lair podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Please subscribe, rate and review wherever you listen to us as it really helps spread the word. You can find us on all the usual social media channels or email us on welshregionalrugbypod at gmail.com. And remember, whatever the question is, Rugby is always the answer.