Cardiff Central: Talking Cariff Rugby with David Allen

Colin and the special guest, David Allen from the Cardiff Review Board, discuss their involvement in rugby and the current state of the Cardiff Rugby Club. They mention the positive changes happening at the club and the need for open communication between the board and the players. They also discuss David's role as a supporter advisor and how he got involved in the club. Overall, they are pleased with the club's progress and optimistic about the future. Hello and welcome to Cardiff Central Podcast, a little bit later than everything planned this week. Fortunately there were some internet gremlins, but I'm delighted to say that we are joined by Colin, as always, and also our special guest, David Allen, from the Cardiff Review Board. How are you doing, both? I'm good. How are you, David? Yeah, I'm great, thank you. And thanks very much for inviting me on. So we'll get in. So David is the support advisor to the Cardiff Review Board. We'll get into the nuts and bolts about that bit, but first of all, we'd just like a little introduction to yourself and how you got involved in rugby, and just sort of your journey so far through it. Yeah, OK. Well, yeah, it goes back quite a long way. I think the first game watching Cardiff was in season 70, 71, so it's like it was a huge exciting time in Welsh rugby, and the Lions were just about to go off on tour to New Zealand. And yeah, so I was watching Liver and B in this brand new ground. That was the year that our current ground kind of opened, so I just loved it, really fell in love with the place. I think I got a junior season ticket the next year and became a member while I was still in school, and kind of, in those days, it was a bit more formal than it is now. If you wanted to become a member of the club, you had to be proposed and seconded. So I was proposed by a guy called Gary Davies, who's the Cardiff hooker, and who was a friend of the family, and seconded by Ali Pryday, a former Cardiff full-back who's now president of Cardiff Athletic Club. And basically, I've had an unbroken period ever since, you know, being a member kind of over the last 50 years. So yeah, it's been a long involvement, and one that's brought a lot of pleasure and a considerable amount of pain. Hasn't it all to all of us, I think. It's part of the journey, isn't it? Absolutely. So you sort of mentioned pain, so I've sort of jumped ahead of the questions. Sorry, just in order. We tried last night. But how do you think the club's evening has been? I mean, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's been fantastic. 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I mean, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's been fantastic. I mean, it's been fantastic. How do you think it has played out? We've been quite happy with where we are, not because of the results, but because of, I think, the spirit that's been shown, the culture that's beginning to develop at the club, and the huge effort that's been kind of put in. So it's perverse, isn't it, really? You know, we've won three games, whatever, and we're all feeling quite good about it. So, yeah, I think that kind of sums up, you know, what I feel about it. But, yeah, we had huge trepidation about it, but we're actually probably quite pleased the way it's worked out. I think we're under no illusions that, you know, that can't carry on forever. You know, we can't get by on spirit and kind of good feelings. So we know that, you know, we have to sort of shape up further in that regard. But, yeah, I mean, you know, given the position we started in, we take where we are, really. I think for the Rags, it's been an inconsistent season, hasn't it? But they're still up there. And, again, that's not a bad place to be when you consider the disruptions they've had, but the squad problems they've had as well. So, yeah, you know, it's not great, but it feels like the direction of travel is good. And you just have to keep that going, though. Yeah, it's that weird situation, as you mentioned, about the positivity, isn't it? And I suppose it's fair to say a fair bit too things needed to change in the off-season. You mentioned culture there. The positivity around the club seems to be, well, everywhere. What's it like at board level? Is it echoed? What's going on on the pitch, the positivity around the side, the positivity around Matt Sherratt? Is that being echoed at board level as well, do you think? Yeah, I mean, I think it's been an incredibly difficult time for the board. You won't be surprised to hear that. But we've had a really, really difficult kind of two years. You know, we've had all the Covid stuff and all the consequences of that. You know, trying to agree a new deal with the union, then losing Peter. You know, it was a massive kind of blow. So it's been a whole sequence of unfortunate events, really. So from a board point of view, I think it's a cliche, but the focus really has been on survival for a long, long time. And trying to make sure that we're still here and still fighting, which we are. So I think just recently the mood's probably lightened slightly. And that is down to what's happening on the pitch. And it's down, I think, to Matt in particular. I think he's been absolutely brilliant. You know, you hear him speak on the interviews that he does post-match and so on. And I think they're always very eloquent. They're always very realistic and avoid a lot of bull, I think, to put it bluntly. You know, he's a very, very honest guy. And that's the way he is. You know, he comes and addresses the board at every meeting. And what you see in those interviews is what we've seen in the board. So I think we've gone from a position whereby, you know, the only strategy we've had is to still be here. And now we're beginning, hopefully, to settle into calmer waters and we can begin to think more proactively about where we want to be and what it's going to take to get us to where we want to be. Yeah, on Matt, you know, a lot of people say that they're straight-talking and use that as a reason to be rude. But he manages to be straight-talking and polite, which is—and honest and polite, which is different. You sort of touched on something there, which was going to be a question I was going to ask, which is how often do the players and coaches get an opportunity to talk at the board meetings and speak to the board about things that they'd like to have get implemented? Well, that's an issue, actually, that we've found recently. We have a number of subgroups to the board, so one of which is, not surprisingly, kind of rugby. And that rugby subgroup has, obviously, a huge amount of contact with the board and the coaches and so on. But the board, as an entity, doesn't. And actually, it's something that we discussed last time out. And I think it's—it's not—you know, that's not right. It's not—you know, it's not a—it doesn't help develop the kind of culture that we want. So we're having a kind of time out in May, and we're looking at what our future strategy needs to be. One of the items on that agenda will be about how the board and the squad actually has an ongoing kind of open communication. So I think, at the moment, the squad tends to see members of the board when things go wrong. And that's not great. You know, so we need to turn that around a little bit, and that's something that we'll be looking to do from this year on. Could that be with a sort of player representative on the board? Or—I don't—obviously, if this is planned or ongoing, do you know exactly what that might—what that would look like going forward? No, we haven't got preconceptions about that. But obviously, one of the things that we have at the moment is Sam's not on the board. So Sam Orbiton's on the board. Again, you know, absolute breath of fresh air. And, you know, Sam's another link through to the playing side. So, you know, that has already improved, I think, communication there. But no, I don't think we have any fixed ideas of what that should look like. And I hope we don't think that's a decision for the board. It's a decision for the board and the playing group. So, you know, we need to sort of toss that around and sort of see what works best. But, yeah, so having Sam there has already kind of changed that situation. But, you know, we need to work out the most effective and efficient way of opening that up a bit. As we sort of started, we gradually moved off field into the board there. Just wondering if you could explain to the listeners a little bit about your role as a supporter advisor and, you know, what exactly that entails and also sort of how you ended up. I believe it's quite a funny, typical story of how anyone gets involved in anything, to be honest. Yeah, we'll start off with that. So, yeah, I mean, I think this is just one huge accident that I'm kind of doing what I'm doing at the moment. So, going back to 2015, a gentleman called Neil McSawley called a meeting to look at establishing a new supporters' trust for Cardiff. There had been a trust previously called Call to Arms, which essentially had been like a single-issue trust. It was concerned about trying to prevent the move, essentially, to the Cardiff City Stadium. And, obviously, then when that happened, it kind of lost a lot of steam. So, 2015, the law went into setting up a new trust. And I kind of went along to that meeting not knowing anything at all about supporters' trusts and what they were kind of meant to do. But, yeah, I found it a useful meeting, but made the mistake of kind of leaving early. Then went to the second meeting to find that I'd been elected chair of this group. So, a long story short, I ended up chairing a working party over the next year or so, which looked at how we might set up a new trust. Then ended up being chair of what became CF10 from 2016 through to 2021. But I stood down after five years being chair and Lindglace then took over. So, I was just kind of enjoying my supporter retirement when the board announced that it was setting up this post of supporter advisor. So, CF10 had been campaigning for a good few years to try and get a supporter director on the board. So, a lot of progressive clubs have that kind of facility. The Scarlets have had that kind of role in post for a number of years. So, that was in 2022. And CF10 asked me if I would apply, if I would be their applicant. And I agreed to do that and was appointed. So, this is my third year in the role. This is three year tenure. And basically, the role is to provide that link between supporters and the board. It's to undertake a number of specific things, for example, in relation to taking on responsibility for things like heritage. So, what I tried to do in that three years is not be seen as the rep for CF10. So, I tried to engage as much as possible with the other support bodies at Cardiff House Park. And yeah, so I guess in a nutshell, the job is to bring a supporter perspective to decisions that the board makes. So, there isn't like a slot in board meetings where I speak and feedback to all this stuff. It's kind of a theme that runs throughout everything. So, it's up to myself to make sure that I say my two penny worth as different issues come up throughout the meeting. So, the objective is to try and, I guess, improve the quality of decision making by having a supporter in those discussions. Just briefly, this wasn't on the question sheet, but as you sort of brought up, you're coming to the end of a three year sort of term. Are you planning on, are you considering staying on for another one? Or are you happy to pass the buck, or ready to pass the buck on to anyone as it may be? To be honest, I think it's not actually clear in the job spec whether you can do a second term, even if you want to. I think it's not up to me. It's up to the supportive groups, really. I'd take the lead from them. I think they're quite keen that I do stand for a second term because they think having some consistency is good. It takes a while, as you appreciate, with any organisation to sort of get to know how it operates and so on. So, three years isn't a long time. So, the short answer is I'm pondering it at the moment. But I've also suggested to the supportive groups that maybe the post be limited to two terms, because I think you need throughput there. So, it's like a balance between having that consistency, getting your feet under the table, getting to know how it works a little bit, but not someone sort of seeing it as a job for life. You know, I think it needs churn. So, at the moment, the supportive groups are putting their thoughts together on maybe how the process of appointment could be improved. And again, we're going to feed that back to the board meeting in May. So, yes, I've got a few months yet, but I'll make my mind up over the next, I guess, three or four months. But fundamentally, I'll be led by the supportive groups as to what they want. So, moving on to what is probably the biggest bit that needs to come out of Cardiff so far this year, with the takeover of the new office. Just wondering what your sort of opinions of Tim O'Neill are, you know, a little bit about them or your perspective of them for those who aren't really aware. Yeah, it's kind of, it's been a very interesting time with the acquisition, obviously. And when Peter sadly passed away, you know, he, one of the last things he did was make provisions for us to continue to have, you know, continued financial support. So, as you'll be aware, under the agreement with the World Trade Union, you have to have this thing called an RPI, a Regional Principal Investor. And the Regional Principal Investor essentially underwrites the business and kind of undertakes a lot of the financial risk in the business. So, Peter's family, you know, being fantastic and supportive, but they, you know, realised that they couldn't carry that on long term. So, we have to find basically somebody to fulfil that role, because it's part of the obligation that we have with the union. So, we did have, you know, a number of people that were interested in getting involved. And I think Phil and Neil were by far the best fit. So, Phil is reasonably well known to people at the club. He's a good friend of Peter's, has been coming to watch the club for a long time. And I kind of, I knew him without knowing that I knew him, if you see what I mean. So, it's this guy that was kind of always, you know, coming along to matches and sort of being with the directors and so on. So, yeah. I wouldn't claim to know them that well. Obviously, there's been a huge amount of work that's gone on with Richard Holland and them and with Alan and so on to kind of get the deal over the line. We've only had one board meeting with them present. So, I guess the board is kind of getting to know them. But what's kind of clear is their passion. So, it's kind of, you've seen some sort of photos from various games where they've been sort of giving it well when we scored a try and all the rest of it. But yeah, it's quite interesting sitting near Phil during matches. I thought I got kind of carried away and over-involved, but he certainly does. And I think that can be a great sign. You know, this is somebody who's actually kind of committed to the club. So, you know, we're still getting to know each other, I suppose, is the situation. But we're confident that they're a good fit for Cardiff. I think it's out there in the public domain that their strategy is going to be very much to under-promise and over-deliver, which I think I'm very pleased about. You know, we don't want people sort of saying, I'm going to do this, that and the other, and then, you know, it never happens. Their priority is to stabilise the business. You know, financially it's been fairly precarious for all the reasons that, you know, you guys know about. But their ambition is from maybe two seasons' time to start, you know, getting us back where we should be. Already there's been a difference, you know, because we've had to operate really much cut to the bone in a number of different ways for, you know, a year or more. And they're coming on board to kind of, you know, ease that situation. So, yeah, it feels different, but it is, you know, very, very early days. I mentioned earlier on that, you know, we're going to be thinking about the strategy in May, and that'll be the first time really we've had the chance to sit down and map out what it is that we want to do. So I can probably, I'll probably answer the question much more effectively in a couple of months' time. But, yeah, it feels, it feels good, it feels right. I just wanted to ask, I don't know if you can say, but if you can, can you say how many offers were on the table alongside? No. No, fair enough. Thanks for that. Then just following on from that strategy then, is that obviously a lot of Cardiff's recruitment's been done quite early and players, but will that come into the strategy meeting that's coming up, you mentioned? Or is recruitment a separate meeting that doesn't involve as much board interaction? No, to be honest, the board doesn't really get involved in that, and I think that's entirely appropriate. You know, that's kind of operational side of the business, really. And obviously when people are having, you know, sensitive negotiations about coming on board or, you know, perhaps leaving the club, that's not something a board should get involved in, you know, that wouldn't be appropriate. So our role perhaps is more to, you know, look at the spending, question the spending, and so on. But it's kind of higher level, really, than that kind of nitty-gritty. So obviously, yeah, we know what's kind of going on, but we don't get involved at that kind of level, and that's quite appropriate that we shouldn't. So, yeah, there's a lot of stuff that's going on quite quickly, and not all of that's in the public domain at the moment, and obviously it's not going to be put in the public domain by me this evening. But, yeah, there will be further stuff coming along, I guess. It's great to hear. Yeah, absolutely. I suppose it sort of comes in the strategies for maybe you don't have this information yet. But have Phil and Nila, you know, they sort of, in their original press statement, they sort of said vaguely what their priorities are for the development and for the Rikes. Have they elaborated any more on that? You know, is it, you know, for them, is it getting the facilities in place? Is it about making sure the support staff are there, or is it something that's going to be flashed out? Yeah, it's all those things. So, there's no one lever, I think, to pull, you know, to make a successful club, really. So, yeah, we've been, like, operating on a very thinned-down infrastructure. People have ended up kind of quite often doing multiple jobs, you know, and ending up doing jobs perhaps that they're, you know, not as familiar with. So, yeah, you know, I think we've done remarkably well, given that's been the position. But we're going to be in a much more positive position, I think, kind of moving forward. So, it's everything. I think the philosophy is very much trying to grow from within, as you know, for all sorts of reasons, really. But, you know, that is very much the kind of culture that we want to develop, and I think we're seeing the dividends of that already. But also, I'm kind of on the playing side, you know, trying to bring people back. And again, you're seeing that happening in kind of practice. But, you know, for us to be where we want to be, it's not just about, you know, being good on the pitch. It's about having a good infrastructure, you know, to support what happens on the pitch. It's about developing facilities that make people want to come and play at Cardiff. So, you know, you can't, I think, you know, tick any one of those boxes. You have to sort of be looking to tick them all. How quickly we can make progress on them is, you know, remains to be seen. But I think there is a very clear view that, you know, we need to do all of these things well. So, you know, the strategy is about working out what the steps are on all that road, really. Sorry, I've got to unmute myself. I was just wondering, in general, about your tenure and perhaps when you started, were there any themes that kept coming up from supporters and things that they wanted to see implemented? And in your opinion, where are Cardiff in terms of implementing those changes by now? I think one of the biggest themes is always communication. And I think we're really good at the softer stuff, if I can put it that way. So we're really good on the player stuff. And, you know, Mike Brown, I think, does a sort of brilliant job on that. I think we're less good at communicating what we're trying to do strategically. And I think that's still true. So one of the first things I did was to get agreement that we produce a very high level summary of what happens at every board meeting. So we do that after every board meeting. That's a little kind of, you know, one page or so of A4 that kind of just tells people what goes on, not the details. Obviously, we can't kind of share that. But, yeah, we keep mapping out what we're going to do in terms of communication, at least some bigger level things. And for lots of good reasons, it never seems to happen. So, yeah, part of my job is to go, hey, you know, remember we said we were going to do this and we're going to do that. And we're not kind of like doing it. So, yeah, and I think one of the problems the club feels is that it feels like it has to, if it's going to communicate with supporters, it feels like it has to have some big news to communicate. And I keep sort of saying it's not like that. You know, people just want regular communications. They just want to know kind of what's happening. It doesn't have to be earth-shattering. But actually just, you know, making the effort to do regular newsletters and so on is something that people kind of really, really appreciate. So, yeah, I think communications are kind of, is a big theme that we keep kind of coming back to. And sometimes we do it well, but as I say, not, I think, in terms of the bigger strategy stuff. I don't think we're great at looking after supporters, if I'm honest. We don't do enough for supporters. We don't sort of do enough kind of events-wise for supporters. There's a huge focus, quite reasonably, on sponsors and things like that. You know, a lot of work goes into trying to keep them engaged. But I think people, we take supporters a little bit for granted. And, again, that's a theme that I sort of flag up quite often. But, you know, having said that, the fact that I'm in the position that I am is through progress. When CF10 first sort of started off advocating for a supporter director, I got invited to go to a board meeting to actually kind of make the case for a supporter director. And, basically, I got sort of bitten off and spat out by Peter Thomas in about five minutes. And it all ended very, very badly. But a couple of years down the road, we have a supporter on the board. So, you know, you're not going to achieve everything you want to achieve instantly. But the fact that we have that in place is really, really important. So I'm trying hard at the moment to, I've mentioned this already, to try to engage with all the supported groups. And some of that has been successful, some of it kind of blessed. So it's work in progress, really, I think. I'm going, wandering way off your original question. But, yeah. No, it's just, it's brilliant. Thank you. I'm glad you mentioned the communication, because I know it's a topic that comes up quite frequently in the CF10 meetings, which I've attended. And, yeah, particularly with the chairman's, the supposedly monthly chairman's letter, which isn't always strictly. I mean, there's one thing I remember myself being quite frustrated with at the end of last season, when all the issues were dying, all the players. And it would have just been nice to, you know, I said, it would just be nice to, you know, from the club to just say, look, we can't say anything now, but it is in hand. And just, you do sometimes feel a little bit forgotten. Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. But we are working on it. And in actual fact, we agreed a communication strategy last July and in January. I pointed out that we really needed to review that, because we were going to miss a lot of the targets if we left it to kind of season end. So hopefully that's in the process of being reviewed. But, yeah, it is kind of something to keep chipping away at. So I am trying to keep chipping away at it. But I think certainly from my point of view as a board of advisors, I know it's a major issue. I was just going to pop in one of our listeners' questions in. So this is from Gerwin Williams on Facebook. He's wondering, are we likely to get physical programmes again? I don't know if that's necessarily anything that I could discuss at board level, but he's pointing out that a lot of other clubs and the WRO are now back to physical programmes. I think some people just like having some nice momentum to hold on. Not my personal thing, but I appreciate people love it. Yeah, and the answer for Gerwin is no, unfortunately. I think it's just the number we sold just didn't make it kind of worthwhile. And obviously, you know, somebody who's got an interest in heritage like myself. Yeah, I regret the passing of the paper programme. But I think we discussed it actually quite a few times. So it's been, you know, this is a regular question from collectors. But it just makes no sense financially, unfortunately, to do that. That's a shame. But, yeah, I get the thing. The whole pressure to be a bit more green when you use less paper. You know, everyone's gone to e-tickets and such. Yeah, I think, to be honest, I think not enough people look at it. But I do think the online programme is actually pretty good. So in terms of information, it's pretty good. But, yeah, people want that bit of paper in their hand, don't they? I remember uni having all of my gig tickets and rugby tickets, you know, Cardiff rugby tickets, sort of just all on a pinboard. Yeah, I've got a load of Springsteen tickets and a load of Wagner Opera tickets just over here. So I'm very much into paper. Did you want to add something there, Calwin? No, no, to be honest, I didn't intend to put them anywhere. I've got them stacked in my wallet. So I've got, like, tickets after tickets after tickets stacked in my wallet. I just eventually have to clear them out and then put them to the side and then it starts again. That's the process I go through. Yeah, I see. I see, because you sort of brushed on heritage. So one of the more confusing topics, I know we did try and discuss it last night, but unfortunately we couldn't put that out. But so obviously Cardiff Athletic Club have, you know, hold a huge, huge part with the club and, you know, holding heritage shares, which I think certainly myself and a lot of the listeners didn't quite understand what these heritage shares are. Okay, yeah. So these go back to when the limited company was formed at the end of the 90s, 1997. So as rugby became a professional sport, obviously, you know, there needed to be a step up in terms of how teams, the club was managed. So at that point in time, from the 1920s, basically the rugby team was part of Cardiff Athletic Club. So when Cardiff Rugby Football limited the set up in 1997, all the assets associated with the rugby club transferred into the new company. And those were valued at £750,000 at that time. So in recognition of the receipt of those assets, a large number of shares were given to Cardiff Athletic Club in recognition of that move. So 750,000 heritage shares were given to Cardiff Athletic Club at that time. And Cardiff Athletic Club had another 500,000 ordinary shares as well. But those heritage shares were associated with certain articles, certain clauses in the company articles. So basically, at that time, it said something like, the team couldn't play outside of the boundaries of the city of Cardiff and the colours of the team, orange, blue and black, could not be changed without the authority, the holders of the heritage shares. More recently, those heritage clauses have been strengthened. So we had the general meeting a couple of weeks back, or whenever it was, and the new articles for Cardiff Rugby were approved. Those heritage clauses now have been expanded. So they still include the club colours, but they say something like, I'll just look into the, they're somewhere on my desk. They say that the team can't leave UCL's park on a long-term basis. And that's basically the rent that they're being asked to pay is ridiculous compared to what is kind of market value. And that the names Cardiff Rugby and Cardiff RSC can't be changed without the permission of the holders of the heritage shares. So basically, if somebody sort of wanted to change the name of the team to you know, Seven Valley Pirates or something like that, they couldn't do it without the permission of Cardiff Athletic Club. So that's basically what that means. Not sure if it's clear, but that is essentially what the heritage shares are about. I think I followed. Does that also give them voting rights then as well? Or is that on matters? Or how does that work? Yeah, they're still a shareholder under the new arrangements, but they haven't got their ordinary shares anymore. I think that's sort of part of the deal for them to be taking over. Yeah, that answers. So they are voting shares as well. It's not just, I can't remember the term, but yeah. Yeah. Yes, I'm pretty sure they are, but I'd have to double check on that actually, to be honest. But the influence comes through, you know, those kind of clauses really. And what's kind of interesting is that it was the CAC AGM a couple of weeks ago, and a few of us asked questions about, well, if that ever came to pass, you know, if there was a proposal to change the colours or change the name or the rest of it, could we be assured that that would be put to a vote of the members? And I think we got an answer, yes. But we kind of probably need to get a more robust guarantee that that would be the case. It's unlikely, but I think we'd be happier if we felt that such an issue would be put to the membership rather than decided by the Management Committee of the CAC. Yeah. You just have to look at the situation that happened a few years ago at Cardiff City, don't you, to see the importance of those sort of things. Yeah. Yeah. All right. I'll show you the next. Sorry, it's because we sort of jumped a bit. Jumped a bit around in the order, trying to find a question we haven't asked yet. It's certainly not my fault. It's all down to you guys now. Yeah, that's now. I'm taking full responsibility for that one, for a change. It's normally me going massively off script, to be fair. Yeah. So, yeah. Go on. So, one of the other big sort of stories is the whole, was it the EDC, so the sort of the elite development competition. So there was, initially it was thought that Cardiff, Cardiff, Merthyr and Potsbury had been involved, then they all weren't, and now it looks like Cardiff are going to be. I think. Is that something that's affected the board decision too much, or that be more sort of internally in the RSC? It's interesting that quite often things happen outside the board and then you get to hear about them, and I think that's not necessarily unusual a lot of organisations are like that. So, yeah. Yeah, the decision not to, not to take part wasn't something that we were involved in. It was reported to the board, but we weren't kind of party to that decision. And I think it was, it was essentially the turnaround was led by the RSC and its committee. You know, they sort of thought the situation through again and then just basically decided that they, you know, they did wish to express an interest after all, and we supported them in doing so, but it would be incorrect to sort of say that we were involved in that decision-making process. Okay. So if it's, were there any opportunities to suggest an opinion from, or give an opinion from the perspective of the region to the individual clubs, or was that not an opportunity after the initial decision was made? Not quite sure I understand. Sorry, I mean, there's obviously the decisions by the individual clubs, so the Rags, Possepreve, Merthyr, it will have an effect on possibly the development of players. Was that, was that not, were there discussions then post, post the initial decision that each club made, as you said, to have to see if they wanted to re-change their mind and possibly what the region's stance on that was? Um, there was certainly a lot of discussion initially with the other clubs, and obviously you saw there was a kind of, a joint statement kind of came out to that effect really. I'm not, hang on, I'm not sure what discussions went on subsequently, so I would be speculating, so I can't really answer that. No, no, fair enough. It's an interesting one, isn't it, because it's, as in looking from the outside, I just, I can understand both points of view, but from the region's perspective, it's a bit of a worrying one. But in terms of the competition for the future, the EDC, what do you make of it? Because I think it's fair to say there was needed to be change, but whether or not that change is the right change is probably the key point in this. Yeah, I think, I think right concern about it, to be honest, was an obvious one in the, you know, we're clearly in a mess, aren't we, developmentally. And I'm not sure at the moment how much sense it made to tweak a bit of the system. You know, yes, we need to make, you know, we need to have a more competitive competition, we need to have, you know, reduce the gap between pro rugby and the current premiership, all that, you know, is kind of a given. But to me, it's kind of like changing one bit of a much kind of broad system, when actually what you need to be looking at is the broad system, where it all kind of fits together. You know, so for me, it was slightly odd to be thinking about it in isolation, you know, and because I think the problem is we don't have a broader strategy for Welsh rugby. And that's the issue for me, you know, so it's a bit of a, yeah, it's a bit of a distraction in some ways, because I think it's not the big question, you know, there are bigger questions. So, you know, from a, from a, just being from a kind of point of view, but obviously where, where, you know, we need to focus on in terms of development and, and, you know, being clear about kind of where the RFC fits into that, you know, they're really important things. So we need to tie all those strands together, the pathway, the RFC, et cetera, et cetera. But, but for me, it's, it's kind of, yeah, it's taking one bit, you know, when, when maybe it's slightly precipitant to do that. So the union obviously conducting their own, producing their own strategy this year, long overdue. That will allow us to form our own strategy, because it's very difficult, you know, where, okay, we're an independent business, but we're an independent business. That's part of a bigger jigsaw. Unless, you know, the strategy around that bigger jigsaw is kind of clear. It's very, very difficult for us to work out what we want to do. But yeah, but for me, it's, it's slightly precipitant, I suppose. And obviously we know, we know the difficulty with it in terms of, you know, reduced fixtures and all the rest of it. But yeah, I can understand why the guys changed their mind on it. But personally, I kind of would rather have seen, you know, this issue considered as part of the bigger plan. Yeah, it's, it's a strange one, isn't it? And the two other clubs, obviously Cardiff, it looks like likely that Cardiff, obviously, are going to be part of the EDC in the future. Obviously, Neath have made another application as well. But, what of the other two clubs, Pontypridd and Merthyr? Because, from the perspective of their fans, what, what does that mean for the relationship going forward? It's probably a concern that they'd, they'd have. And, can that, do you think that, can, that relationship can maintain or even be strengthened? Because at the moment there, there are some, some that believe that relationship isn't as strong as it should be between the Cardiff-based region and the, the outer reaches, the outer reaches of the region. Yeah, I, I think, you know, one can always improve. Yeah. You know, one can always, one can always do things better. And I, and I think, you know, I, I think the, the regional structure is an interesting one, isn't it? You know, we've all struggled with it. It's thrown a blanket over, previously what have been quite tribal entities, you know, and there will always be kind of tensions associated with that. But, I think we, we take those responsibilities kind of seriously. And in a sense, you know, you've, you've been forced into a situation because of, because of the qualifying criteria. You know, there's been a, in a sense, team have been set against team because of the conditions that the, you know, put around this competition. So it's, it's not something that we've obviously saw, but it's just something that we're responding to just like the other clubs are responding to. So, you know, you had, you had sort of, you know, you had a podcast the other week, didn't you? On the, on the kind of pathway and all the kind of work that's going on there. So, you know, we, we can always, I think we're proud of the work that's happening there. We can always do it better. We can always have better links, et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, so, so some of this potential friction has been generated by the criteria, I think. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as I said, you probably, you were, those at board level, probably a little bit more party jitters, but one of the, one of the resounding themes I got from, from the sort of like fans on social media, which isn't always the best place to get news, but, you know, there seemed to be a lack of transparency from the WNU about what the exact criteria were. So I thought the communication around BBC was sort of a, you know, it was a very vague, it was almost, the applications are open. And then next thing you hear out, these are the teams that have applied. And it, you know, it didn't seem like, which again, you know, communication improvement, is there something that's a quite common theme amongst a lot of businesses? Yeah, I don't think it was, I don't think it was quite clear at the outset. So, yeah. Yes. Yes, I think we'll pop, pop that one. But, because you mentioned sort of a, you know, a more joined up together strategy. So, one of our, one of our listeners, Rich Williams, he's asked, do you know of any efforts coming between Cardiff and the other clubs to try and get more fans in through, through the regional game? I said that, you know, that's been one of the WLU's big priorities. I'll leave my opinions to myself about how I think WLU have undermined it in the past, but. Yeah, we've got the problems, don't we? It's, it's, you know, if you think about it, it's, it's, it's actually quite miraculous, I think, any of the four teams are still here. Because, you know, when you, when you think about it, it's kind of like, it's like if you're running a shop, you know, you open it like a certain number of days per week. And then on those days you can't actually kind of put your best goods on display. You know, you, it's incredibly difficult operating a successful, you know, club from a, you know, spectator through the door point view on that kind of basis. You know, going, going to school is a habit, isn't it? And it's very difficult to develop that habit. If you've kind of, if it's not been ingrained in you through, you know, previous arrangements, it's very difficult when you're down to, you know, whatever it is, nine club, you know, league games a year, it's very difficult to sort of build that level of support. So I, I think we know the problems are, I think the, the, as, you know, as many people comment, the difficulty we've had historically is that, you know, if there is a strategy in most rugby, it's been about the national team, massively important. You know, we have to, you know, we're all seeking international success, but I think it's often being presented as, well, you know, you could have club success, protein club success, or you can have national success and you, but you can't have both. I think that's nonsense. You know, it's absolutely nonsense. I think, you know, Welsh rugby is crying out for, you know, teams which are not successful in whatever leagues they play in, which is another issue. And, you know, in, in Europe, and I think it would lift the whole kind of game if we, if we would have had successful teams there again. So I, I think it's about how you, you know, the balance is sort of swung too far one way. And I spoke, I'm getting the feeling that, the new regime at the union kind of recognizes that. And, you know, it's just self evidential, isn't it? You can't have a, you know, the tip of a triangle, which is really, really strong, but there's no foundation underneath it. And that's the position that we've, we've kind of been in. So I think from our point of view, you know, going back to your earlier question, you know, we'd want to handle the games, but you know, we've had what, you know, to close on kind of sellouts. You know, we, we, we know absolutely in the capital city that, you know, we should be in a position where we're selling out every time we play, but we're not going to do that if, you know, if we can't provide regular rugby and if we, if we, you know, if we're, if we're stripped of our best assets a lot of the time, because they're, they're being called on elsewhere. I'm just really hopeful. I'm, I'm, you know, I'm always optimistic. I'm really hopeful that when the union produces its new strategy, it has significant contributions from the professional teams. And that is a strategy about growing the whole of the game in Wales, not just about the uppermost kind of tier. And then that comes back to things like, you know, what does the EDC meant to do, et cetera, et cetera, again, what's happening below that. It has to be looking at every aspect of that period. And we've seemingly failed to do that for a long, long, long time. So, so I think it's miraculous that we can actually get such crowds at the Alps park as we've seen this year. And it's, it's, it's not because of the position of Welsh rugby is despite the position of Welsh rugby that we've been able to do that. Is it just Welsh rugby? Is it also the league? Because some people would say, look at what happened against Harlequins. Look at what happened against Bath. Therefore, Anglo Welsh league solves maybe not all of, but some of the problems. Yeah, I, I, I think it's not a lot, is it? It's not a lovely. And, and yeah, it's, it's inherently flawed. If you, if you, if you never get, you know, away fans kind of pitching up for that. So I think to many people, it's, it's a no brainer that you, I think Anglo Welsh league is always kind of challenging, but a British league, maybe, you know, no brainer, although that will be challenging for some of our, our partners, you know, presumably have, you know, salary caps and all, and all the rest of it. But it, it just seems blindingly obvious that once you get down that road and if, you know, it's before you get into the environmental aspects of people flying, you know, 5,000 miles to play games and all the rest of it. So, yeah, I, I think it, that sort of stuff feels like, you know, you know, closer than it's ever been because of the, you know, the problems that are happening in, in England, whether it will happen or not, you know, who knows? Again, it's, it's, it's not a new thing, is it? But I think if, if, if change is going to happen in the leagues, it will probably come about through, you know, the pressures of EDC and so on, you know, so it's going to, it's going to come out through financial pressures, I would think, but I, I don't know what it is. You know, rugby is struggling generally. So I think something has to happen. And now it seems as good a time as any to think about that. What? That's a personal view. It's not a board view. No, no, I completely understand that. You mentioned rugby is struggling. Has, is that purely down to COVID or is COVID exacerbated? What, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, 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