Cardiff Central: Signings and Saffas

The Cardiff Central Rugby Podcast discusses recent news about the Cardiff rugby team. They mention that Razor Ray, a veteran player, has re-signed for another year. They also discuss the recent signings of Will Davis King and David Hughes. They talk about the importance of Ray's experience and leadership for the team. They mention that the team still needs to fill positions at scrum half and second row. They also discuss the Wales under-20 squad, which includes several Cardiff players. They mention the upcoming Wales vs South Africa game and the inclusion of Cardiff players in the matchday squad. Overall, they are positive about the progress of the Cardiff team and the opportunities for young players. Welcome to the Cardiff Central Podcast. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Cardiff Central Rugby Podcast. I'm Harley as ever, I'm joined this week by Dan, no Carwyn, he's stealing the lurgy from that Wales squad announcement, which we'll get into a bit later. But first of all, how are you doing, Dan? Yeah, I'm all good. My theory on Carwyn, just to put chucks about there, is that I reckon he was at the front of Taylor Swift last night and screamed too much, he lost his voice. I wish I was there. Right, so just moving on. So very quickly, a bit of housekeeping, we've had some re-signings. So Will Davis King's extended, has had David Hughes, who's extended his sort of, it wasn't really a loans in, but a short term deal, last time. And then the really big news we had today was Razor Ray himself has re-signed for another year. Feel free to take him in there, whichever order you want. Yeah, I mean, got to start with Ray really, haven't you? Just what a legend. He's going to be 39 during next season, which is, I mean, it's mad. But as Fawcett Lee said in his video that the club put out, age is but a number. And he's not got the pace he perhaps once did, but he's still a quality operator. You can see from his stats against Sharks and Ospreys that even though the legs aren't quite there, he's still got more than enough in them. And just his intelligence, the lines he picks, so good. He probably knows now that he's not going to be first choice anymore, particularly, and that he's more of a squad player these days, but he's clearly happy to play that role. And he's as important off the field as he is on it for the culture that he sets in the dressing room, but also the way he's going to bring through some of these young lads. Obviously, you can see elements of what Ray does and what Mason Grady's doing already. But looking at, you know, a couple guys we'll get on to in a bit talking about the Wales under-20 squad, somebody like Elijah Evans or Stefan Manuel coming through in that midfield. I can't think of many better guys to learn off than Ray. So good business by the club. Can't imagine he's on a huge amount of money these days and obviously happy just to take a one year and maybe that's a bit of a swan song as well for him. But yeah, I think it's a good move to bolster the midfield, which was looking very, very slim at one point. It was just Ben Thomas chucking the ball to himself for a couple of months there, but he's looking a bit healthier now with Grady resigning and Roy Jennings coming in. Absolutely. So I think the only thing we're, the only place we're looking like still now is Nines, which rumours are that's been sorted, but just wait and see what happens. And potentially another second row. As I said, we've pulled David King in directly this season, that means our tucker in. There's at least numbers why it's filled, whether people believe that we've got the quality there. I'm still willing to say we do, but. Yeah, I think with Dav, we haven't seen much of him, obviously, because Belch has pretty much nailed down the two jersey and then Evan Lloyd and Evan Daniel have sort of switched as the bench option there, which is, you know, I imagine Hughes knew that when he came in, that those were the guys who were going with and he was there as a squad player. But the only time I can really think of him playing was he came off the bench away at Rassen. I thought he was actually pretty good that evening, to be fair. He's somebody who the Scarlets were a bit surprised to let go, I think, back in the last season and obviously got caught up in the jersey mess. But if he's happy to sit as a squad player still and be a dependable option uncalled upon and then, well, David King's an interesting one because, I don't know, was he 25, 26 now, something like that? He's about on a par with them, but he's probably a bit younger than Hazard, I'll see that. Yeah. But, you know, on par with Carey, I'd say. Yeah, and obviously he came to the programme to be a little bit later. He didn't do the sort of traditional academy route. He comes via Cardiff Met and playing for Ponty and Cardiff RSC and the Prem and then picks up a senior academy deal a bit later than most do. But, obviously, big bloke. I don't think he's ever looked dreadful when he's played for us, but he hasn't obviously looked like somebody who is going to kick on, but then makes a Wales wide training squad last summer ahead of the World Cup. So they obviously see something. It's not a position we have massive depth in at Cardiff or in Wales, generally at tight head. And maybe now next season, with Bubba concentrating solely on the scrum, there's an opportunity to properly develop guys like Will Davis-King, Rhys Litterick, Rhys Barrett, who are either younger or on the periphery of the squad a bit. And with some more dedicated coaching resource there, they can they can kick on because, you know, 6'3 and over 100, over 100 kilograms. He's a big old bloke, Davis-King. So if they can harness that properly, then there is something there. I mean, when he has played, at least in the loose, definitely shouldn't call this his last season. I think you said in your blog a couple of years ago that, you know, it was for him to pick the numbers, but was it the 18 jersey Gordon left to? It was probably his. And then, as a result, he's sort of had this huge bump in form. So I think that's new science. As you've alluded to, we've had the under-20 squad. Key headline there is Steffan Manuel at 17 has been called up. Do you want to just quickly go through the four of us? That's not many. Yes, it's six current Cardiff players. I think I'm right in saying it's sort of classic Cardiff for the youngsters form. It's one back row forward and then all back. Lucas de la Rua goes as part of a really exciting looking back row in that squad. Then we've got Harry Wilde at 10. Steffan Manuel is still an under-18 player, as well as Cody Stone, who has still played under-18 rugby this year, as well, in the back three. And then we've got Elijah Evans, who has played most of his rugby at Cardiff Met in back super rugby this season as a fresher. So it's relatively uncommon to play that many minutes as a fresher. So he's obviously somebody that they've identified as a talent. And then Matty Young at full back, who's had a few injury issues, I think, but has played a fair bit for the Rags at the back end of last season, looks a bit of a talent as well. And obviously, the other thing from a Cardiff point of view is just how many sort of ex-Cardiff Pathway lads are in there as well. You've got Owen Conker and Harry Bezel as part of the back row stocks. Sam Scott at Tight Head was one of ours before heading off to, well, he was Wasps and now he's ended up at Bristol. Louis Hennessy, as well, will be a pretty key man in the centre there, having gone to Bath from us. So, yes, there's plenty of sort of former Cardiff representation. But as you know, why Emmanuel and Tom Bowen coming back was such big news was because we do lose so many across the bridge. Steph's brother, as well, Johan, is in as a loose head prop. So, yeah, as a squad on the whole, though, I think it's, you know, there's a lot of continuity from the Six Nations. They finished that pretty strongly. That win over Italy was a good one. A couple of players kicked on again. I think Max Page has got a few social media clips for his performances with Flandovery and they're making his Scarlets debut. Ryan Woodman back fit and captains at blindside. And the only sort of loss is Harry Ackerman isn't fit, having, I think he broke his leg in the Six Nations, so he's not back in there. But, yeah, certainly I'm looking forward to seeing a back row of De La Rua, probably be Harry Beddle and sorry, Woodman, De La Rua and Morgan Moore, 6-7-8 is pretty decent, I would say. Yeah, that's a pretty decent one. I don't think it's too many better than what you put out at the Under-20s level, which was when you trained correctly. I believe all the games of the Under-20s are going to be on YouTube. Yeah, but S4C will show the Wales games on the telly box as well. And yeah, when I remember what they are, I'll put up the pictures on the page, just people know, because I'm probably more excited about watching that. Then the upcoming game we're about to preview, which is Wales 6 Africa on Saturday. The Minnow game for the mighty Babazui-Fiji clash. So, Bloom Blacks News, we have 8 in the matchday 23, so you've got both of them, Jim Botham at 7. Ellis Devon makes his debut at Scrum Hearth, the first debut in four years, which people love saying, so I thought I'd put that in as well. Mason Grady starts for the first time, I believe, ever at 12 and can win it as pushed Sam Dayton-Wing to start at fullback, which I think is a good sign of what Gavin thinks about him. Then on the bench, Evan Lloyd and Keir Nasratti make it two-thirds of the placement front row. And then we've got Big Mac in the 20s and Jacob Beetham at 23, who I think is probably covering 10-15. In theory, 12 as well, but I mean, if you've got Eddie James on there, I don't think you need him as 12 cover there. Big shout out to the former Bloom Blacks man, James Ratty, who's getting set for his debut off the bench, which I think everyone agrees is well deserved. So, your thoughts on that? From a Cardiff point of view, I think it's another tick in the box for what we've been doing this season, bringing the youngsters through. I don't think many would have put the length of that list of Cardiff players who made their debut for Wales this season where it is, with Beetham and Bevan joining, Winnett and Mann, and Mac Martin, and all the guys who appeared during the Six Nations. So, yeah, from a purely Cardiff point of view, I think it's great. I think, obviously, unfortunate losing Jack Morgan, not something you'd want, and is it like sort of bad injury luck seems to continue, but great for both of them. I personally think he should have been in the original squad anyway, but great for him to come in and get the start at seven as well, which obviously he's played most of his test rugby in the six years he's so far. So, be interesting to see how he goes there, but it's a big physical back row. And then Bevan's obviously the standout headline there, starting ahead of Gareth Davis and Kieran Hardy. I think it's easy to understand what Gatland likes about him and his size and his left foot kicking option. He has improved with the run of games we've had towards the back end of the season. And I think the beauty for him in this one is that, just on the game generally, no one expects Wales to do anything this weekend. There's not a single, I can't imagine the bookies are taking much money other than the odd £1 punt on Wales just causing an upset. So, for Bevan to go in against the team that the Springboks have named, there's no pressure. Yes, there's pressure in a test match, but there's no added pressure at all of needing to win or anything. You can just go out there, play his game. Looking at the Springboks back three, they might fancy that there's a chance to sort of get on top of them if you kick from our right wing a bit with Liam Williams chasing, Mason Grady getting after them as well. We've got a fair bit of height in that back line. I think Demare as well was fantastic. He's a great chaser, he can get off the ground. So, we've got a chance to get above them there. And Bevan, with those left-footed, high-hanging box kicks, he's caused a lot of teams a lot of trouble this season with them when he gets them right. So, I think that's somewhere we'll be looking for him. And then also, I think one of Bevan's other strengths is, well, he's sort of come through the Thomas Williams school of being impactful in transition as well. He likes to pop up in midfield, he likes to get his hands on the ball in open plays. He's big, he's physical, he's quick. So, I think that'll be somewhere for him to impact the game. And just to echo your comments on James Rattie, he should have been in the squad as well. I'm glad he's in the squad ahead of certain other members of the initially announced squad. Probably should be starting, to be honest, just as an extra carrying option in that second row. But I think he'll have a good impact off the bench. And after, was it two capless camps he was in before? I think he was called up twice and not get anything. Yeah, I think that's the last two campaigns. Yes. So, to finally get... I don't know if he did Gatlin's Six Nations. I can't remember. No, I can't. But yeah, great to see him on there and hopefully he has a decent impact off the bench as well. Absolutely. No Ben Thomas, who's apparently not trained fully, so he's got a bit of a knickle. But by all accounts, Gatlin's very, very happy with how he has trained. No idea why no Domichavsky. Do you think it's just giving Matthias a run out? Yeah. I just thought he'd have been... then he'd have at least had a full front row that's worked together Yeah, I was a bit surprised at that one. I just as well, because Matthias... I don't mind Matthias. I think he's got a decent ceiling. But as of right now, his scrimmaging isn't the strength of his necessarily. And I don't know what benefit there would be necessarily to him being absolutely mullered for half an hour before going out to Australia and potentially being called on there. So yeah, not too sure on that one. But I think Gatlin's seen enough of Dom over the last year now to know what he's about and know what sort of strength he brings. So I don't think there's a concern that he's been like dropped or anything. It's probably just a management issue there, sort of game time management. He's played a lot for us this season, to be fair, having gone to the World Cup and then come back and hasn't been injured particularly, gone to Six Nations and then come straight back into it as well. So yeah, and then I think just on the game as a whole, I honestly don't know. I can't think of anything where we can properly target Springboks to win it. I mean, they're missing Bulls players and European players, I think. Is that right? Yeah, basically the non-SE or Japan-based players. And I mean, they're still so strong. So someone was talking about how this is Jadon Hendricks, who could be starting at 10. This can be his first cap and there's a few other big ones. Yeah, but Jadon Hendricks is up against him who's had about 10 or 11 caps. But Ivo Sojda, who's played his first start in his first cap. And you've got Andres De Gea, who hasn't got many box caps, but he's had a normal year as well. And Fabio Klerk, who is a double World Cup winner. I think just on the centres as well, like obviously Grady at 12 and Watkin at 13. I would be interested to see how often they switch and whether they do stay quite rigid in that or they switch it up quite a bit. Obviously, naturally, they're the other way around. Grady, yeah, he's never worn 12, but he did have a fair stint there against Italy in that last game in the Six Nations and looked relatively impressive. And I think maybe there's an element of matching up there to put him up against Esther Hazen physically and try and match that. But there is an opportunity if they're clever with their attacking game with, you know, Costolo likes to drift wide and get moving away from first receiver and get out into the wider channels. You've got Winnett, who is equally comfortable popping up first receiver, second receiver or outside the 13 channel. Watkin, who is a good out-to-in carrier from 13, I think I like him when he hits that line. He's not quite got enough pace to go around the outside for me necessarily at a test level, but he's also equally comfortable at first receiver and play in there. And then you've got Grady, who, if we're honest, in attack, his best position is not in the position. If you're designing an attack around Mason Grady, which with his talents you really should be doing, it's effectively just saying, you know, don't worry about being in a position, just worry about being where you can impact the game the most. And whether that's as a decoy runner or as hitting a short line or going around using his pace, getting around the outside, you know, he's got all the tools. A few more forward pods. Yeah, sort of being that tip on and then all of a sudden you tip on and then you accelerate. Because he can accelerate quite well. Look at the try he scored against, I'm going to say Stormers, the one where Ellis Jenkins is miked up and he talks to Mackenzie Martin. That's off a, you know, sort of a middle p, I don't know what you would call that, a gap in the middle of the line out, um, where Grady just goes straight through and bursts over and scores. So yeah, if you, if you can square up a couple of forwards around the fringes of the rug, you can certainly get him spaced out because his acceleration is mad. For a big bloke, he gets up to top speed so quickly. Um, so yeah, that would be, it would be interesting, like, you know, there's so many different things you could do with him in attack. And I suppose the concern is that the Welsh camp is not particularly innovative in that sort of regard. Um, but, uh, hopefully, who is the attack coach in these days? Is it Alex King? It's still Alex King, yeah. I don't think he's necessarily the worst, but I think the problem is, is when you're trying to develop from these attacks, it takes time to bed in and you don't really have it because a lot of the key components we've had recently have been English based and that causes you a problem, which, you know, it's one of the sides of the capital that people don't realise is, actually, if you want to develop your systems quickly, you need the time. You know, the reason why, you know, even though Andy Farrell took, essentially, the Leinster team, it still took him two years to get that island attack, which was the Leinster attack, but it took longer. Otherwise, um, I think second row, I kind of get, like, if Carter's, Carter's Screech and Raffey are your three locks, I kind of get why he's done it that way around, because Carter and Screech have played an awful lot together back end of the season. So, you know, it's a second row combo who work very well. They know how their line-out calls go and the Dragons' line-out's actually been pretty good. It's been one of the best ones in the DRC, so I kind of get that. Then maybe you'd have wanted James Raffey's one of the only Ospreys locks in the scores, the only fit-off, when the only fit-off is going to, you know, be in there at Derry Lake, so it's sort of, you know, those two put it together. And I thought we just had a disability stealth, but I think he's got a niggle. Ah, okay. So it's, so I think there's things that he may not make it on the, he might not make it on the plane if he's not likely to be fit. Yeah, it'd be interesting to see who the, it's five now, I guess, isn't it? Five players he has to drop. Well, I suppose, no, it's only four. I know they've seen numbers of five, but when you've got to remember is Jack Morgan's been released from the squad, because he unfortunately injured. So it is only four, so I think we are looking at probably, like, you know, I thought James Brotham might be one, who, you know, has been dropped once Raffey was available, but I'm guessing he's going to go, so you're probably looking at two tight, one, maybe two tight heads with a hooker, and then one of the outside backs, I imagine. It's interesting with the tight heads, because if they do drop two tight heads, then one of them will presumably be Azerati, because I don't understand otherwise why you would name Archie Griffin and Dylan Lewis, presumably, are definitely going to go, because they haven't been in camp yet. So they've been named with Australia in mind. And then Henry Thomas starts this weekend, so I don't know, like, it obviously doesn't necessarily mean he's ahead or not, but I think Gatlin probably likes what he's, you know, Thomas was ahead of Azerati at the World Cup. And I think he's put him ahead, he obviously likes the experience scrimmaging that he brings. So it would be a surprise, though, because I think Azerati's been really good for us this season, to be honest, and it's still only 26, 27, it's still got ways to go to, you know, he could be 31 by the time he hits his peak scrimmaging wise. So yeah, that would be a disappointment for him, I think it'd be decent for Cardiff. It'd be an odd one. A weird one to me is Harry O'Connor, because I just thought if you were going to, you know, I saw him as being one of those more finishers. And I thought, I thought you'd have seen him involved in this game, because I thought Henry Thomas or Azerati was one of those two was going to go in and basically the three of them. I don't know if that's because Gatlin's already decided Harry O'Connor's not quite ready. Or he's got Harry O'Connor and Archie Griffin earmarked for that game against the Rebels. Yeah, yeah, it's the Rebels. Oh, no, it's the Reds. No, the Rebels have folded the Reds. Yes. It'd be interesting to see what he does there. And then I suppose maybe it could be a centre that goes potentially. We got a couple of Eddie James, Owen Watkin, Ben Thomas, Mason Grady, Nick Thompkins still to come in as well, who presumably is guaranteed to go as again, you think all English based players who haven't been in the camp yet will go to Australia. Otherwise, it wasn't really any point naming them in the squad to begin with. The only thing I can think of is if they've basically gone, well, if these guys have a stormer, then I might drop them. I said, I think that's the reason why we've got Eddie James and Beetham on the benches. He's probably one of those two. I think it's weird Beetham covering 10, mind. He's a great player and he's got sort of the game intelligence, but I don't know, like... I mean, he hasn't played it since age grades of Cardiff. Yeah, it's a long time. I think I think you remember him at one point in the way of the twenties. He stepped in there because of injuries. I mean, Costello is playing 80 unless he hasn't much injury. That's the thing, which like Costello is, I wouldn't categorise him as injury prone necessarily, but he's not been the fittest over the last sort of like 12 to 18 months. He hasn't played, you know, the issue with him in the Six Nations was that he hadn't played regularly for the Scarlets building up to it. And he's been there or thereabouts, but he has, I wouldn't necessarily say, you know, he's a hundred percent flying match fit to play 80 every weekend. You know, you look at Athena Stabia, who just seems to keep going and going versus a Costello who gets hooked a fair bit and doesn't start every game. So yeah, against a massive South African team who could legitimately crush him, I mean, it is a bit of a risk. Actually, because he is actually, for all, you know, people talk about a submissive, so he does punch above his weight. When he does have to carry, he does carry quite hard. He's a very good tackler, but yeah, I mean, you still have the mass, the mass moving mass thing. That is going to put you into problems. I mean, Evan is going to come off the back of a scrum and run directly for him early in that game. Yeah, Esther Heatham will be down soon. And then at the time you've got the very small Jesse Creel. Yeah, I mean, they really want to mix it up. They can throw Makazolum up in B, the tiny man. It's ridiculous. I mean, like they got like Feinberg and Zomloo, I think is the name is quite a decently sized man on the bench as well. Yeah, but he's a 10. He's sort of like the sort of David Villains of 2.0, isn't he? A sort of 12 slash 15 who covers 10. Yeah, he's a great player. He's got a great skill set. And yeah, so that, I mean, it's effectively almost the inverse of what we use Beetham as, in terms of like the sort of priority list. It's quite interesting when you think about it, like you think about some of the bench things, but then you look at like their back row and it's like a double World Cup winner, you know, probably bench player of the year, Quagga Smith. I don't know how he's going to go from the start. Then you've got former world player of the year, Stephen Croyd. I mean, the one who apparently won to Razzi is going to be out of luck, because the last time he capped in the box is when we beat them in DC. Who was it? That seems a long time ago now. It feels like a long time ago. Yeah, so yeah, and then Evan Roos, who I'll be honest, I see why people like him, but I don't think he's their best aid option, especially not with Cameron Heidinkens coming up, who is not who is saying he is definitely South African. No, their team is bad. I think Russ Petty follows him on Twitter. Petty80 did a stat that Eben Etzebet with 119 caps has more caps than the entire Wales starting pack combined, as long as you don't count Henry Thomas's England caps. I mean, that's a ridiculous stat in itself. Yeah, they're starting type five with Andrzej Marks, Kok, Etzebet, Mostert. I mean, for a team that's supposedly a changed team, that walks into our starting type five. I can't imagine many packs in the world where you would say no to any of those. Yeah, I can't remember what the final score was when we played them in that last World Cup warm-up game. Did they put... It was 60 on something. Yeah, so that was that weird game where basically our back line was just the full experimental, let's just give everyone a cap. Yeah, I mean, it could end up like that on Saturday. I think there's a little bit more, like there's a lift. I mean, there's not much experience, but I'd like to think about, you know, the likes of Watkin and Sanjay in there sort of helping Marshall and win it, I think. Sanjay would be an interesting one because obviously, like I said before, like I only see clips of the Japanese league, but it looks on the whole crap. I mean, it's not just general, like it's got some obviously some big names in there, but there's, and I think speed wise, they play at a decent speed and a decent skill level, but just you don't need to be very physical to win it necessarily. So Liam Williams, who missed the middle of his team season through injury, is still picking up injuries even out there, and now comes straight back into a test against the Springboks having not played in probably six weeks, two months, something like that. It'd be interesting to see how he goes because I've never been a massive fan of him on the wing generally. Yeah, I get what you mean. He's obviously a world class fullback, he does a job on the wing, but I wouldn't be able to say, to recall a game where I was like, oh, that was a man of the match showing from Liam Williams off the wing. I think it's the right decision starting there this weekend just to add some height to that back three and the issue is, the other option is Giles, great season, don't get me wrong and deserves to be in the squad, but a starting back three of Giles, Dyer and Winnitt is absolutely tiny, no matter how good they are in the air or their work rate, like you just, you know, look at Grady's try, he scored against the Ospreys on New Year's Day, he didn't even jump against that Ospreys back three, he just sort of ran in and caught it and went under the post. So ultimately, you can be included in the air as somebody like Winnitt is, but if you're coming up against the six foot three guy who's also really good in the air, he'll probably win most of the time. So that's why Williams being in there makes sense just to add a bit of height and like a different type of physicality, but yeah, that back line does have potential to pick up injuries early on and then you're botching at some point, you know, Beetham and James are both really good young players and have had good seasons, but are not experienced at club level even, let alone test level. I mean, I suppose the first wing injury is going to end up going to, it's going to be Mason Grady who switches from club to wing, isn't he? Yeah. That actually might make the attack a little bit better if you actually get them to run in, it's almost like Josh Adams all of a sudden. Yeah, the one thing I do think we do have, might have an advantage is looking at the back of these guys, they are all very good aerially and I'd say it's probably the weakness of probably most South African back threes, especially if they haven't got the likes of Kolbe or Chitlianza who, you know, although they do mean to be a springer and yeah, I think like that is what, you know, one of the few highlights against that line game was, I think we did manage to get the better of Edwin Thunder in the air at least and Atalaya Faf is the most solid type of full-back, he's a fantastic counter-attack in running, losing no pressure. And I think you're just hoping on that midfield being a little bit slower turning, thinking over the top and just trying to pull them here, there and everywhere. Yeah, I don't think we can do what Gatton always does against South Africa, which is drag them to the gutters because I think he's quite handily. Yeah, kicking game's got to be spot on, both like for the distance and for, um, particularly for competitive aerial battles. I think if we kick loose, like yeah, you're right, that Van der Merwe isn't the strongest in the air. I was surprised to see Faf in the squad at all, to be honest. I think he's a little bit lucky to be in the wider Springbok squad. Maybe it's just obviously they're missing a few from the Bulls team and from Europe, but they will still, if we kick loose, they will kill us with the counter-attack. So yeah, big games for Costolo and for Bevan in particular in that sense, particularly because without Ben Thomas there, there isn't like a recognised backup kicking option. You know, Winnett has got a good route on him, but Cardiff don't really use him as kicking an open play massively other than kick tennis times. We don't go to him as a sort of start any kick tennis. Watkin is a handy footballer, but again, isn't quite what you would go to as a backup long kicking option. So yeah, it's going to be heavy on the halfbacks on the day to really get us in that kicking battle and in that aerial battle. And if the game does become unstructured like that, that's one area where I'd really like to see Wales kick on this summer is that we have such exciting talent in broken play and counter-attacking, but we just looked really clueless when it came to counter-attacking in the Six Nations. A couple of times, you know, the ball gets turned over and we're slow to get in positions. We're very flat as well when we do try and go wide. There's no, you know, just simple pass and draw stuff, but you know, the best teams work really hard in those scenarios to give themselves depth and to manipulate the space that appears on turnover ball. We, yeah, it's just, it's very much like whoever gets the ball on turnover ball, best of luck off you go, try and create something by yourself. And that's not, you know, the way to properly take advantage of those scenarios. So if there was one area that I'd love to see Wales, not just in this game, but over the course of the summer as well, get a lot better is that if we could score two or three tries and turnover ball and make that something, something of a sort of a USP for us, then I think that'd be a successful summer overall. Yeah. Do you think a big part of that is, you know, part of the reason why the thought of having Beaton and Ben Thomas essentially coming on at 12 or 15 is going to help by having that extra secondary person to help pull in all the backline into shape. And even Boston forwards didn't forget them when it's, so do you think a lot of those services in Six Nations was a lot of, actually, sometimes the forwards being a bit too slow to react to that, to get that clean up to that first phase, but you've got the quick ball to get all of our systems organised. Yeah. And it'll help having, I think, Schindler will be a big help in that regard as well when we get to Australia. I know, I think there's maybe a slight misconception around him in that, you know, he is a big unit, but I think people are expecting him to be sort of like this bulldozer physical guy when actually the athletic side of his game is what he prefers to use and what he goes to. So him getting around the pitch, getting to breakdowns and securing us quick ball, but also contributing himself on turnovers, he's not slow, you know, he can exploit that space. That'll be big. And Plumtree is the other one as well, I think will help in that regard. This is going to be an interesting one. Oh, go on, go on. Yeah, I'll let you finish your point now and I'll go on to my point with those two. I really like what I've seen of him. It's not massive amounts, obviously, because of his injury, we saw him a little bit in the warm-ups and then a bit for the Scarletts over the last few weeks, but he seems to have everything that a six, particularly under Gatland, would need in that he's athletic and physical and quick and has, as you'd expect for somebody who's coming through the New Zealand system, has a good understanding of the game as well. Good skill set when he gets the ball in his hands. So yeah, with the likes of Shunza and Plumtree coming back in, Wainwright might still be in there. Both of them will add a bit as well, where I imagine once Refel starts probably against the Wallabies, but both of them is your obvious bench choice. There's six, seven, eight coming off the bench. So yeah, I think, yeah, if we're not counterattacking now and really using the forwards as athletes to staff these breakdowns, then we probably never will. So the one thing that, you know, everyone was having a go at Shunza because he wasn't, because they were all expecting him because he's so big, so basically making these big busts and carries and it's like, if you actually look at what he's been employed to do at both Exeter and Cardiff, he's there to nuke breakdowns and he nukes the breakdowns. And you know, that's good enough for me because if you can get one, if you've only got one person clearing out, you know, a load of defenders so you can get the ball away, great. That's almost as good as having a really, you know, game on bust and carry because you're still getting quick ball, you're still forcing the defence back. Plunchy, I'm still, I think, you know, I need to, I'm probably going to watch and record this game probably more so than, than I necessarily would have because that cameo for the home game fixture against England before the World Cup, he did look really good coming on against his defence. And again, I feel like the role change with Shunza was just churning through work, dropping deep balls, hitting ruts. Plunchy was there to do all the show-calling stuff. And then in the second, in the return fixture against Trenton, I thought actually he was, because there wasn't another person doing all the hard work and it wasn't like it was a tied defence, I think he did struggle a bit and I, I'm not sure, because he hasn't, has the likes of Alex Craig and Dan Davis doing an awful lot of grit work for him at Scotland. And actually, Karunthu Palotu has been, really, Karunthu Palotu, even though he's been named as a number eight and has been playing number eight, he's probably more that traditional six role of just the heart, just someone who gets through all the, all the hard work. I think that has sort of freed him up to do all these other fancy things. So I think that maybe that's where both of them could be fantastic because as great as he is, I think his best, I think he's best when he's just doing the unflashy shit well. And you notice him when you start looking at the stats, you know, it's like, oh, he's got three turnovers, oh, he's tackled every single member of the team twice. Like, you know, you're like, oh, okay. I think they're some of the best games he has when he's not, you know, where he's letting other players play well. Yeah, it's a good reminder for when discussing team selections and stuff over the, particularly against the Wallabies games that, you know, I think a squidge always makes a really good point around when the lion squad is selected. And it carries over into, you know, national team squads and, and the 23 selection as well as you're not just selecting the 23 best players, you're selecting the 23 players who will give you the best chance to win. And that's, that's always something I think I'm guilty of losing sight of it sometimes just think, well, this guy's been in great form, put him in, but, you know, there has to be particularly, you know, in those back five forwards, particularly with what you want to do with your midfield, you have to pick the players that will get you the results, not just the best players necessarily in that position at that time. So, yeah, it's always handy to remember that one. Same with the whole thing with Morgan Morris, who is doing really well in the second defence, but the way Gatland wants his eight to be, he wants them to be a good lineout option, and he wants them to be an edge forward, you know, so he's comfortable at wide. That's not Morgan Morris, Morgan Morris is definitely more that type carrying, you know, he's, he's the person who you hit off first aid, which is Gatland tend to use the seven or whatever for that, you know, sort of, you know, you can put the peel off or, or whatever. So, you know, Morgan Morris is playing the wrong position. If he'd stayed in his natural position, his original position of seven, he probably would be a decent, decent shot. The only problem was he'd never get any game time behind Tipperick and Jack Morgan. So, you know, it's going to be interesting. I think seeing what he does with the front row, in terms of how they're going to be playing, because, you know, so he, he or Catboy, he was, he was pointing out how Azarate was in, like, one of the top play heads for carries and meters and passes in the URC. And in Six Nations, he was that, like, you know, like, this is everyone else, he's here, because, and then you look, but his rough work is like, through the roof, because Gatland likes to turn head props, to just hit rough. He's like, well, are you really using Azarate best there? Or do you actually want him on the ball a bit more? And actually surprisingly good hands, you know, when, you know, anything, you know, maybe does he change that? You know, I think that's maybe in the past when Kerry has played for Wales, he hasn't been used the best because they're trying to get him to clear out runs, which is very much a weakness in this game, I think. The thing is, I mean, pretty decent, but I find that he's probably not the best attacking run, but then you're using him as a primary carrier, so why would you knacker him out, clean him out runs? Yeah, so, yeah, what was it, the thing, I said, the thing that really, quite weird is, you've got effectively the two 13s in the squad, and then you've got two 12s on the bench, or a wing, or, you know, a 15, 12 and a 12. That was odd, but I feel that so much, there's much, there's no one else left. And it's not like we've got, it's not like we've got the forwards to say, oh, we'll go for a 6-2. I have a question for you. I wrote on my blog this week, just about what, what does a successful summer look like for Wales? And my conclusion was that it should include one win over Australia, probably, who are in a sort of flux mode themselves. Joe Smith has just come in, obviously Eddie's left. The game over there is, yeah, is in an absolute state. Rebels have gone bust, a couple of lads are going to the NRL. Obviously, they got the Lions next summer, and then their home World Cup two years after that. So is that, is that being over the top after Wood and Spoon to ask for Wales to win just one, at least one game out there? Or is it more just about continuing to build? I mean, I think one thing is, you've got to remember is, excuse me, is Joe Smith is probably one coach who has managed to get the better of Gatton more than anyone. I mean, I'll just, I'll just put that, I'll just tell that name. He works out Gatton's plan very quickly. So I think it'd have to be the first test. We'd have to win that first test. I think the Rebels game, the Reds game, sorry, is a non-negotiable. You've got to win that. You can't be, even if it is going to be our experimental side, I think, you can't be booking a provincial test and then say, well, we wanted to play some other one, but that didn't happen. But this is for this experimental test, and then you get loaded on it. I think, for the game this weekend, I think we've got to keep it respectable. I'm not saying we're going to win. I'm not even going to say we're going to do a card. It's going to stay with a seven. But, you know, if we can keep, it can't be like that game last year. I think it goes much more than about 20 points. And, you know, I think overall it's strategic, but I think the performance, and we've got to see promise, and it's got to look better than the Italy game, you know, we did on the Italy game. And then each game, we've got to look better and more cohesive in the unit. You know, I think that line-up needs to be a bit slicker. Actually, I'll counterpoint what I said, but, you know, the scrum needs to look, I don't expect it to be a dominant scrum against the box, but I think it should at least be able to hold its own, which today we usually are okay with. Our props seem to be all right. You know, we will leak a few penalties, but we certainly don't get demolished, because I feel that's not how we score, and I think it's a good size scrum to counter the box. But, you know, everything's just got to look that little bit more polished. Defence needs to take another step up, although I thought defence was mostly all right, actually, in six stations. I think the problem for us was we made so many, we just were very bad at relieving the pressure. And, you know, we just we just had to defend for so long, that's where a lot of these points got racked up. But one thing I want to flip on with you is, obviously, we've, Gatlin confirmed that the new World Rugby initiatives are going to be coming in. One of them being the no scrum on a reset, no scrum option for resets and free kicks. You can reset a scrum, but, you know, any free kicks and no scrum. Do you think that's probably going to help our perceived weakness of a scrum? Yeah, there's only there's only so many things that you can you can get free kicks or a scrum. Yeah, yeah, I agree on the general point, just on the scrum with what you say this weekend about parity is that I think people will expect us to get absolutely destroyed. But actually, if you look at the respective starting type fives, remove the experience level, weight wise, we sort of stuck up relatively well. I mean, Gareth Thomas is now I've been our starting loosehead for two years as an experienced guy. Henry Thomas, England caps, Wales caps, been there and done it in the sort of the top 14 is an experienced scrummager. Derry Lakes, big bloke, you know, captain. And then Screech and Carter. Carter's bulked up considerably. I know it's been said a bit and it's becoming a bit like sort of Vanderfly has improved his carrying a bit. I'm talking about Carter bulking up, but he is noticeable when he came back for the Dragons in the back end of last season that he is a different level of physicality now. And Screech, you know, he's not he's not a top quality operator necessarily with respect to him, but he's still a sizable bloke. You know, he's 31 now, good age for a lock. So just in purely that level, I don't think the scrums will necessarily be as much of a bloodbath as some are making out. But yeah, with with the initiatives, I think there's an element there's you know, there's there's possibility to be clever about if you are going to take a free kick or not a certain time and then they have to, well, depending on where they are on the field, tap it or kick it back to you. Yeah, it was obviously I don't know if it's been bought in immediately off the back of the Springboks call in call in scrums of marks, but it's inconspicuous timing, if not so. Yeah, it can. Yeah, I don't know whether it's a positive or negative for Wales, but it's a negative for the Springboks. I think it's one of their biggest strengths. You know, they're going to win or they're going to have to win scrimmages. So indeed, for me, that it's just go straight to penalty. Yeah. But yeah, and then they'll see the other ones that the pump law has come in. So now we've got to make now we've got the anxious week it came. But you know, actually, if you look at a lot of penalties, a lot of these players have been given away, they are offsides. It's certainly in fixations as well. You know, we're a little bit slow to get back and make sure we're not back. And I think, you know, if Mike Foreshaw isn't saying, if you think you're at the back of the ruck, maybe go a bit back. You know, that that whole thing that, you know, your coaches always tell you, do you think you're onside go back and was that the other initiative this weekend, I saw Charlie Morgan in the telegraph time Morgan saying about the TMOs are going to be more involved in like, calling forward passes and knock ons live during the game. I don't know if that's like all summer or specifically just a twickenham on Saturday with the doubleheader. But it did make me laugh that the game they've chosen to do that on is the barbarians against Fiji. I mean, that poor TMO is going to be constantly forward, forward, forward, knock on. It's just going to be whoever's in the middle just going aggressively flat. He's going to be unplugging him at some point. I can't remember who it was. There was definitely a refereeing performance where the TMO was trying to call in and I'm sure the refs were like, I don't care. Might be a bit of a whack game, because, you know, he is a man who likes his wives. Yeah, so hopefully it doesn't come into play, but I presume that means the 20 minute red card as well, which I'm very much against and I will never not be against. I said, I hope that's right, because actually these are two teams that don't, you know, they don't tend to do things like that, you know. But I don't think, I think that is like neither Wales nor South Africa have conceded a red card or a high capital, certainly since that, since that initial campaign. Of course, yeah, I hadn't thought about that really, but yeah, that's probably, probably true. Because both, you know, basically both sets of defence coaches said, I mean, especially given how prevalent Wales use choke shackles as one of their main ways of slowing down ball, a lack of out and out jackal threats, you tend to be more holding them up. So that's actually quite encouraging thing. It's not to say we don't give away penalties for high tackles, but... We just give away penalties for everything else, isn't it? Yeah, and I think that's, and the other thing is discipline is going to be key, because if we're constantly in R22, we are going to, we will bust and break, because every team would. And when you've got the sort of geoferocious parrying power of that, they have to bolster the niche. Yeah, well, one day we didn't even suggest it, but they've got Damien Gill and they're coming off the bench. Talk about blunt force objects, you know. Yeah, you don't get much worse than that. So yeah, I think, although probably, I mean, shall we just move on to predictions and then wrap up? Yeah, yeah, sounds good. Yeah, so I'll go on you first. I don't want to be like over the top negative. I want to be somewhat realistic at the same time. I'm pinning my hopes on, obviously, it's been a few weeks now since a couple of these guys played and both teams has relatively new combination. So I'm hoping for sort of cagey first 20, 25 minutes before the Springboks probably get into their stride. Let's go South Africa, I think they're probably going to cross 50, aren't they? I'll just end, I'll give them South Africa 48, but Wales will, they'll run away and score a few tries. I think it's 48, 27. That's sort of what I'm saying, it's clear and obvious wins. It doesn't look like we've been completely prisoned, James. I'm not going to give an exact score, I never get anywhere near those scorelines, but I'd say Springboks by about 20 to 25. I think that's probably looking at the two teams, that would be quite a good result for Wales. Yeah, I was just looking at Skybet, but other bookies are available. And they've got Wales at plus 18, which I think I would just about back the Springboks at that. But yeah, they would hopefully be pretty close to that sort of thing. Yeah, as long as it's not one of those games where I predict and it's so much, even when I predict a negative result, and it's so, so much worse. I think Wales Island for the Raphite, I predicted like Ireland by about 20 or something, and that game happened. I think, unless there's anything else you want to talk about, Paul, I suppose, do we want to go on you, or do we want to reveal it later in the week? Uh, we'll, we'll just say for now that we're, there's almost certainly a special guest on next week. And so keep an eye on our socials and on who it is. And I'm sure there'll be people wanting to send some questions in for them. Yeah, so yeah, so we've got special guests next week, and hopefully we've got a few more coming out throughout the summer, as there'll be very little rugby rugby. So we'll, we'll try to have guests, uh, won't guarantee a pod every week, but we'll try to be there as we said last week. Uh, all that's left of this is for me to say, thank you very much for joining me. Cheers Ali. Get well soon Carwyn, and thank you all for listening. Thank you for listening to the Cardiff Central podcast. 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