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Welcome to the Cardiff Central Podcast. Hello and welcome to the Cardiff Central Podcast, as ever it's me Harley in the hot seat. I am joined by Dan today, there's no Cowan. How are you doing Dan? Yeah, all good to you, thanks, how are you? Yeah, not too bad. Nice long weekend yourself? Yeah, yeah, it was good. Bit of rugby, bit of offering in the garden, living the dream really. Yeah, I was quite happy. I had one of the very rare daddy daughter days where my wife had so many other things to do that I could actually go and do, just spend some time with my daughter, just the two of us. I'm glad my wife doesn't listen to this because I think she'll start getting more jealous than she actually is. Right, so not the heaviest of news weeks at Cardiff, so just quickly break into it. So, first of all, we've got re-signing for Big Al, Big Al Alan Lawrence, and more importantly, Mason Grady has re-signed, which means we do have an actual centre-pair for next season. So, what are your thoughts on those two? Yeah, not the most news, but two important pieces of news, particularly Grady. I mean, yeah, there has to be one ongoing saga, I think, every season for Cardiff, otherwise it's not really a recruitment or retention window if there's not something that drags on for like six months. And Grady has been that one. There was Alex Anderson talking about him at sale, then there was him going to a game at Bath, which meant he was definitely signing for them, and I know there's been contact from Toulon as well in France, so he was certainly a player who was sought after. For Cardiff to get hold of him is a great statement of intention still in these tough times, and obviously he's a massive player, he's going to be a real top star. It's important to remember he's only 22, only just turned 22 as well, and he's already pretty much nailed on as Wales' 13 this summer, and over the last few weeks has properly nailed down the Cardiff 13 jersey as well. So huge for Cardiff, huge for Welsh rugby, huge for our depth chart. Like you said, we've actually got a 15 we can put out now where everybody's playing in the right position. Much better than where we were this time last year, certainly. And then just for Big Al, we saw how good he was out in South Africa. I think it's important that the club do reward stuff like that as well, where players come in, take their opportunity, and it's good for those on the fringe of the squad to know that when they do have their opportunity, they'll be rewarded if they do well. And for those who might be considering coming to Cardiff as well, you look at Alan Lawrence and Ben Donnell, and then if you're a young player, like we've spoken about, Steph Emanuel and Tom Bowen and stuff, they look at Cardiff and think, oh, players get opportunity to play there, and if they play well, they get rewarded with contracts and more appearances as well. So big picture good, short-term good, can't fault two good pieces of business. Yeah, absolutely. I agree. It's like months to have meat and have a narrative to win something. As we talk about Cillian's 13th birth, we've had a very cryptic message from Cardiff this afternoon. So if this is to be Ray Lillo's last game, you know, here's what he means for everything. A wonderfully emotional video. Make sure you've got some Kleenex with you. Other tissue brands are available. Yeah. What do you think? Do you think that's a hint that the retirement's coming? It's just that he's definitely going to be playing on Saturday or one more year for Ray? It could be both. It's a bit like what Exeter did with Henry Slade the other day, where they sort of trailed a video where he was both retiring and staying at the club at the same time, and then an hour later popped up with that he is staying. So I guess they have to cover all bases. I think it probably points still to the fact that we don't know what our budget is for next year. We don't know exactly what the squad's going to be. But it does say that, I think, they're covering that if we don't sign Lillo, then we've honoured him. But there's a statement of, if the money is there, we would like him to stay, I think is how I would read it overall. And one more year from Ray is certainly not something I think most non-Leo terraces would turn down, simply. Yeah, certainly not for those of us in the crazy corner. I think another year, he might need a step to get over the hoarding to come and join us. The more time we have with Ray, the better. Even if, as you were saying, he might not be the most obvious coaching type player, but just having him around the environment for the likes of you, Tom Bowens, it's just going to be great to see how he goes about his business. As I said, I think Timbo was saying, even though it looks like he finds everything effortless, you do see how much work he puts into it behind the scenes. So that's going to be good. And yeah, Big Al, I mean, I'm not sure I necessarily agree with you as him being the second row cover, but certainly a good 6-8 option, which means that Big Mac isn't going to be solely relied on. We don't know what Palato's availability is going to be like over the next year, coming back from injuries and getting another one. It might be worth him having a bit longer than he might necessarily need just to make sure he is fully, fully fit before we try him out again. Yeah, I mean, Al gives us that opportunity as well. He does take the burden off Palato, certainly. If you get the second row balance right with, say, a Teddy and a Seb and then maybe have both of them a seven, there's a possibility where you could have Al at six and then Palato slash Big Mac and have a real heavy ball carrying presence there as well. So it definitely provides opportunities around mixing up your starting pack and six-two benches as well. Yeah, absolutely. Two other little bits of news, which I'm not going to go too much into. One is just an announcement that news is coming, which is six years are coming out. Well, it'll be this morning, at 10 o'clock this morning, as you guys listen to it, we're recording Wednesday evening. And then the other bit is, which took us both by surprise, I'm not sure, Diego Mango has been named a Welsh ambassador for the Lesotho Rugby Academy, which as far as we can tell, he has no links to Lesotho, but yeah, good for him. He has a sort of charity promoting rugby to impoverished kids for raising health and awareness of HIV and other issues in those sorts of parts of the world. So yeah, good luck to him. There's an event on the 4th of June in the pack bar. So if you're interested to get involved, contact the club. We will post a link in the description for the pod. I think that's all the newsy bits out of the way, unless there's anything you want to add, Ben? No, we discussed briefly that Wales Online have linked us to Aled Davies this week, as well as Steph Thomas, saying that we're the frontrunners for his signature if he comes back from Saracen. We'll delay full judgment until if and when he signs, but it does seem like they're addressing the problem areas of the squad at least, because as far as we're aware, Bevan is the only scrum half at the moment. So it's a hell of a workload for him to be playing all 80 minutes next season, but if they got an Aled Davies in, it would certainly bring a bit of experience to the position. Yeah, I mean, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was asked by Jamie from Wrapped and Dragonspotter if we reckon that we'd sign Gonzalo Bertranou properly on full contract. I think I was saying to him, it depends, because I feel like he'd be a decent signing, but I couldn't imagine a world where we have both him and Aled Davies. I feel like we'd only have one of those. Yeah, I guess the tricky thing is knowing exactly what sort of money that those guys are. You'd think Bertranou would maybe command a bit more money on the basis of being a current Argentine international, whereas Aled's obviously been at Saracen, but not been first choice necessarily, and has been out of the international picture since going to North London. So, yeah, it's supposed to not be on the rounds possibility, but Steph's PC World Online mentioned again, I think the guy's name is Johan Mulder, the Lions scrum half, who was linked with us a little while ago as well from that trip to South Africa that some of the management took, I think. So he'd probably be a somewhat cheaper option than Bertranou would be. Was that the absolute shithouse one who just seemed to want to start fights all the time? Because if it is, I'd be keen. I honestly have no idea who he is. I don't know his name at all. It's a quick Wikipedia of him. He doesn't even have his age on his Wikipedia. So not much known about him. He played for the Bulls briefly 2021, the Grick was in 2022 and been at the Lions since the start of this year. So I assume he's relatively young, hasn't played much for them. So no blue and black rugby to talk about this weekend, but there was some. So we had the European finals, which so should we start with the big boy cup or the Champions Cup? Well, let's start with the sideshow of the Champions Cup. I think it was a great game, to be fair. Like it was obviously wasn't much attack to it. It was defences on top. But I mean, what a battle between it was the right final. It was the two best teams in Europe, really. And I think in the end, it was the right wing winner. I think Toulouse probably made it harder for themselves at times, but they probably should have tried to kick on and win it in normal time. Obviously, then Luciano gets sent off as well, just to add a bit of extra drama to it at the end. But yeah, great game. Both sides' defence was just immense. Dupont, unbelievable. Alexandre Roumat, the number eight was superb as well. Not somebody I've seen much of because obviously, Alderweireld pretty much dominates the France eight top really. So you don't see a huge amount of other people there. But yeah, he was fantastic. Just I mean, yeah, the quality on the pitch is another level. It's mad to think that we played Toulouse earlier this year. It feels like a lifetime ago now. But on that basis, I just feel like as we also lost to Toulouse, we can class ourselves as joint runners up of the Heineken Cup this year, or sorry, the Investec Champions Cup. Apologies to Investec. Yes, I agree with that. The main thing I want to add is I think that's possibly one of the best non-test games of rugby I've seen in I don't know how long. It was just, the intensity was just palpable. I know Saturday was supposed to be my daddy-daughter day, but my daughter was learning the intricacies of rugby. That was our activity from about six weeks onwards. Yeah, it was such a good game. Honestly, I couldn't wait for it to finish because I was so exhausted from it. I didn't want it to end though. Yeah, I think. I mean, the one thing that I found really mad was when Ramos came on, he took over this kicking from Kinghorn, who was absolutely metronomic. Yeah. As much as I don't want to overhype a Scotsman because, you know, overhype Scottish fullbacks can be a bit of a problem sometimes. He was brilliant. As much as I want to laugh, as much as when we had Craig Manson on the pod, we both started laughing saying, they're Kinghorn, play for Toulouse. Yeah, it's weird. He was obviously a talented player and he had moments for Edinburgh and for Scotland and stuff, but I had no idea he was a goal kicker to that level. Absolutely no idea. Just the quality of his play. Obviously, playing with better players must elevate you to a degree, but yeah, he doesn't look like the same Blair Kinghorn. If I didn't know that he'd moved and you were just watching that game without knowing who the players were, I'd never have guessed that was Blair Kinghorn of Scotland at 15 there. I think it's one of those ones, like if you looked at him just before the BK10 experiment, actually he did a lot of the line kicking, he did a lot of the restarts and his boot is fantastic, actually. I don't think he's done much goal kicking since age-grade, mind. He was curling them in perfect. Just on the final generally, it's a great venue for it. I've been to Tottenham for the NFL earlier in the season. It is a spaceship level stuff. I love the Arms Park, I love your traditional close-in rugby grounds and stuff, but Tottenham is just different level. It was a great place to host that final, I think. I know there's some frustration that it's pretty much the same four or five cities on a bit of a loop, really, that hosts the Champions Cup final and it would be good to take it elsewhere, but if you're going to play in the same old city, a stadium like that is a pretty good one to host. Yeah, I think we shouldn't complain about the current selection of Hanneken Cup and Challenge Cup cities as we'll be hosting the next year's one, which I'll be honest, I basically put a wrong numbered bank balance from it by booking my tickets, booking the weekend pass. I'm going. I've got no excuse not to. Yes, just loved it. And as I said, kudos to Graeme from Rock'n'Roll who bought Andrew Porter a star, just so that you could have that fifth star. It is an interesting debate about Leinster, though. They are the dominant side for so long, but they've just got this choking thing about winning finals recently. It is a weird one. Obviously, it's the first year of Nienaber and there's a bit of change there, but it's becoming a thing, which is probably much like Irish rugby fans already know about losing and that becoming a thing in World Cup quarterfinals. Leinster doing the same thing late in knockout stages of, well, increasingly both the URC and the Champions Cup is probably something they want to shake off at some point. That's an interesting point I heard from a couple of different Irish pods. They find it really funny how Leinster did absolutely everything they needed to, to turn around against, so they could beat La Rochelle. And it's almost reversed the vicious cycle of Leinster beat Toulouse, Toulouse beat La Rochelle, La Rochelle beat Leinster, and they've turned it the other way. Because they've made themselves perfect for defeating La Rochelle, they're now completely vulnerable to Toulouse. It is just mad. It's a funny one. Do you know how many times Cardiff came up in a broadcast? Yeah, and like before as well. So we got a couple of mentions when Gloucester were playing in the Challenge Cup as well. I think we must have been up there with most mentioned clubs who were involved, or even close to being involved. Going on to the Challenge Cup then. So I've talked about how this was, how the Champions Cup was one of the most intense and interesting non-test matches I've ever seen. This was the exact opposite. This was fucking bad. It was, it was two teams who've had poor seasons, playing a game which I'm not sure, I'm not, I don't know if Gloucester actually were that keen on even being out. Weird that they've manufactured their whole running towards this sort of thing. And then going like losing 19-0 to Northampton because they were arresting everybody in preparation for this. And then they turn up on the night and first 15-20 they were sort of there or thereabouts. But at no point did they actually look like winning that game at all. Sharks were slightly better than they have been the rest of the season, but I'm not fantastic at any point. Probably the main highlight is Vincent Cox 50-22, which was absolutely superb. I mean, that was worth the admission fee by itself, to be honest. But yeah, other than that, it was a fairly forgettable one. And like, I don't know, there's big problems at Gloucester there that I wonder if George Givington survives the summer there potentially. But obviously they're becoming Cardiff Old Boys next season. So whether that's a help or hindrance, I don't know. But if I was sort of Thomas and Anscombe watching that, I wouldn't be overly thrilled about turning up there next season because that's going to be a fairly sombre dressing room, I think. I think there'd be a lot of refreshing their banking habits. Yeah, maybe. It's a great place to play still and they do have good players, but just something isn't right at that club at the moment. One thing I was surprised about, I think Switch pointed out on Osprey's iris, I ended up watching what Zach Mercer was doing in between his carries and it wasn't a lot. I'm starting to see why the last two England coaches hadn't fancied him, to be honest. Actually, I do think it was just a bit, I'm curious, I thought about a lot of Gloucester perhaps, like when they're on top and they're going forward, they're all really, they're all going really well. But as soon as they start getting beaten up, they just sort of, I don't want to drag in, you know, our fellow region from the east, but it's a bit dragganty that they just sort of, as soon as they start getting beaten a bit, they sort of just fall into their shells. I think the thing I most don't get about it is that Ben Donald came to us from there and he looks like a player that they could really do with. I just thought if he was at six for them on Friday and that sort of, that repeated effort, the work rate, the willingness to take the ball phase after phase and make tackles phase after phase, yeah, he's not the biggest guy. But like you say, you know, somebody like Zack Mercer, he was very, very much a sort of a YouTube rugby player in that you've got a very good highlight reel, but perhaps not too much else about that. And with the possibility of annoying the Ospreys podcast, which was Morgan Morris until sort of the start of this year, I would suggest as well. And yet he made a lot of good impacts on games here and there. But as Toby Booth mentioned, I think after they played the Dragons last time out, you know, he did have work on defensively, you know, being fit enough to make repeated efforts defensively and in attack. Morris has addressed that, and I think that stands him in good stead to go with Wales on the summer tour this summer. But Mercer, you know, he's clearly still not in and around that England squad. And that's not just because, you know, Baldwin isn't somebody who doesn't pick people just because he might not like them. But he's not that kind of guy. He'll pick the squad that he thinks is best. And he likes your hard work. You know, the reason that I set a player in a slightly similar mould is that we don't see too much of Don Brant playing for England anymore, who is a bit harsh to use this term, but there is a show pony element about him in that he's, you know, he's a lot of big carries and tries and nice offloads and stuff. But it's not, I think, of that Duane Van Der Moeve sort of try from halfway where he gets brushed off him very easily. You know, there's not a lot of repeated effort there. So, yeah, that Gloucester pack is one that flatters to deceive somewhat. And it was interesting to hear about the Dragons. And then when they were, I think they took Sam Scar from the Dragons on loan briefly towards the second half of the season and put him on the bench as the replacement hooker. So if that's where they're getting their loan players from, maybe it's rubbing off. Yeah, maybe. Now, sitting on that England background, I was just thinking, because you're like, the two, like the options they've got are fixed. They sort of go for, you know, the Chesham, you know, it's basically you're Courtney, Courtney North type, you know, a lot of cover. But then you've got Ethan Roots and Chandler Kelly in South, who I'm a massive fan of. Literally was one of the only few reasons I'd be, I'd tolerate watching London Irish last season. That's the reason I'm not going to go into, you know, legal, legal disputes. But yeah, you know, they're very hard working. You know, and even Ben Earle is a seven. Yes, he's allowed them, not just, you know, putting it in, but, you know, he cheers on everything, every little thing, because he scraps every little thing as if he's scoring a draw. And I do kind of appreciate that. I did prefer him when he was in the Bristol Bears shirt, the Sari shirt. But again, that's a personal bias. Yeah, it is interesting. I'm going to just quickly plug tomorrow night, me and Hugh are going to do our Wales squad based on the stats. Basically, it's almost technically like what you've done with your squad, your big squad for the South Africa game. But we're basically going to just go on stat, you know, on the stats and you'll see a minutes play, you know, and there'll be a minutes play kettle. So the likes of Jadzi and Sam Costello just miss out. Because I haven't quite played enough minutes for what we've set. And we've set the bar at like a third of the game, the available game time. If Costello misses out, because I'm guessing Dan Edwards may not quite reach that threshold as well. I mean, no spoilers, like I said, we're still going to go through it, but it's looking like Ewan Lushed. Yeah, I was going to say, he's probably only... As our third option, because obviously there's no real... Dragons have had to revolve around, you've got him, you've got Will Reid, between Will Reid, Kai Evans and... Angus. Well, no, Angus hasn't really played at all there either. And then obviously we've had to be here pretty much every minute of every game, so yeah, not going to be him. Yeah, so there'll be a few players who won't be included. So there won't be Reece Carey, for example, no Thomas Young. On the stats, Thomas Young walks in, but there's no point selecting him, he's not fit. Not actually available, yeah. Thomas is an iffy one as well, because he'd make it, but I'm not sure he'd be fit for that game. So Jotty, not for the South Africa one by the sounds of it, but we'll go to Australia. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Yeah, we'll be there for Australia, so I don't know what the cut-off is. But just talking of stat selections on the European finals, did you see the Opta team of the Heineken Cup final? It was just awesome. This confused me and irritated me, because they've got 7 and 8 the wrong way round. Oh, did they? Yeah, so they've got Rumah at 7, and then they've got Franselco at 8. Oh, yeah, it was just odd. It's because they've assigned certain stats, high weight in this one, but ours weren't a good look. It was just funny that the Irish team, I don't know who it was, but one of the Irish TV pundits was quoted after the game as saying that Leinster were the better side on the day, and then the Opta stats, like statistical team of the final, was just the Toulouse starting 15. It makes me wonder how Leinster could be the better team on the day if statistically all of their players were worse than their counterparts. The only thing really I'd say had an argument is probably Andrew Porter for basically making the scum, if they put that in their stats. I guess maybe it's hard to put in stats, because you don't always know who the referee is penalising to a degree. And then there's a further kind of trickle down, where that Porter is ever legal or not. I think that's about games and teams that we have nothing to do with. Yeah, that's true. It's become a general rugby podcast. So, obviously, Judgement Day, what should be the big game, end of season, bit of a damp squib. There's literally nothing honest for us other than pride. Ospreay's wrapped at the Welsh Shield last week. We can't get in the top eight. They probably can. Well, they possibly can. I wouldn't say probably. Yeah, I can't remember what the thing is, but it's possible that they're out before our kick-off, I think, isn't it? Because we're the last game, isn't it? Although on Scrum 5, Toby said he's not going to tell the players. And you're like, yeah, but they'll know by three o'clock then. That's still two hours before kick-off. They're going to know, Toby. They'll know, Toby. I think we should employ somebody to go by the tunnel at Cardiff City Stadium, so if they are out, somebody just screams it at them as they're coming out of the tunnel. They're immediately demotivated massively. Just say, you need to win by 40. They're so desperate to score, they just concede every time. Yeah, so thoughts on Judgement Day? Are you going? No, I'm consistently petty about Judgement Day. I'm not a fan of it as an event. I am on an hour, so on a personal level, I don't enjoy that sort of event, day out type thing. At the Millennium or Principality, I don't enjoy the lower tier, which is where they always put us as terrace season ticket holders. As much as I like the ground as a whole, I do think the lower tier is one of the worst views in all of sport. Because if you're sat at the back and you're under the middle tier, it feels like you're not in the ground. And then if you're sat at the front where you are more in the ball, you actually can't see anything because you're effectively below the pitch because of the camber of it. So just on that basis, I get quite petty about going with a couple of the other guys I stand with on the south terrace east and just sitting in the clubhouse. So we've gone as far as town, but we'll refuse to actually set foot in the Principality. We'll just watch it on the telly. And then, because it's Cardiff City Stadium this year, as much as they might try and tell you it's a city centre ground, it's definitely not in the city centre. It is a 45-minute walk if you're going to do it. I'm trying to get a bus down there. It's a bit of a nightmare. And as far as I'm aware, as of the end of last week, they weren't expecting more than 15,000 people to go, I don't think. I think it might be quite a sad view on telly, where we are. Because even if they've sold, say, 20,000 tickets, not 20,000 people go to each game. There's probably what's going to be an absolute maximum of 13,000, 14,000 at each game. If you're a Scarlets and Dragons fan, you're probably not hanging around for a second game. And if you're a Cardiff or an Ospreys fan, you might get there during the Dragons and the Scarlets game, potentially. There's going to be very few people who watch 160 minutes of rugby in that ground, I would suggest. I'm not going. I will be in the clubhouse performing my annual pettiness of watching it on the telly. We are noticeably second favourites, I would suggest. The Ospreys should, like the table has them far ahead of us, even if they're only one place above us, they are a good number of points ahead of us. They've had a very good season. They've been the standout Welsh team by a margin. They tend to dominate us up front, is sort of what they do. And that probably shows no sign of obviously abating. But then you go back to last year's judgment day, and if we can get them on the run and get the ball moving, and we're above 95% accurate in everything we do, we can move them about because they are still, they're not as direct and immobile as they once were, but they're still not a particularly quick team. It's not, obviously, Keelan Giles is an exception to that rule, but through midfield, 10, 12, 13, they're not massively quick in there. Their back row has got good players, but they're not hyper athletic as a back row or a back five forwards. I mentioned about Morgan Morris earlier, he's not going to be getting around the pitch in the same way that a James Botham would be if he was at eight, or Jack Morgan's a great player, but if Botham's got him at seven and then use him again, Botham is more athletic than Morgan is. He's going to get to breakdowns quicker, he's going to get on the outside of him. Second row-wise, somebody like Seb and Thornton are going to be more mobile than a Hugh Sutton is, or James Ratty, who has bulked up quite a bit again since going back to the Ospreys, I fancy, and has lost a yard or two, which has probably moved him out of Wales, reckoning where he was in it with us. We have opportunities to get at them. I think the weather's quite nice, so that will, if it's a dry track, that will help us. I suppose the question mark is how keen we are to win. I saw an interview with Sherratt where he said the Belcher have told the players they must win, it's like a must-win game. If they come into that attitude of, yeah, it's one last big game, we'll give it everything we've got to go all out and win, then great, but if even a couple of them are already on the beach, then it might be a bit of a long afternoon. I'm quite relaxed about it, to be honest, because it doesn't matter for us. Just on a general level, I think it would be nice to finish on a good performance, whatever the result may be. The season has been one big upward curve from where we were at Benetton to now, and if we finish towards the top of that upward curve, that's quite a nice way to bookend the season of not playing great in those first couple of weeks, and playing much better now with the win against the Sharks, the games at Ulster and Munster and Glasgow were good, and then finishing with a big derby performance against Ospreys would be pretty decent. Yeah, I agree. I mean, I also, this is the first judgement they are not going to do. I actually quite like the letter, but I will quite happily watch. You know, I'm one of those people who quite happily sit and watch rugby all day long. It's a bit harder now, but when I can, I do. Yeah, I will be back in Devon hosting a barbecue, where I'm going to be getting the smoker out, doing a couple of nice things. So I don't know how much of the rugby I'll actually be paying attention to until Sunday. I might have it just sort of propped up next to my smoker. It's probably the best way to watch it, yeah. Cuddling beans in hand, panic, having temperature anxiety, making sure that enough heat, but not too much heat, is going through anyone's hands. Shall we have a bit of fun, see how wrong we can get this to? Yeah, I mean, we were miles off every chance. Unbelievable. I don't think anyone predicted that, literally. No, that's true. Sherrod did bring a couple of massive surprises on us, but it was quite comical how far off we actually were in the end. I do feel like most people would have backed our selection over Sherrod's, but obviously he's the man who gets paid the money for it, and he got it right on the day. I think there's another tricky-ish one this weekend, a couple of question marks over fitness of some players, and that Lilo Vidiotto, who is a spanner in the works, suggests he may play, and there's a sort of farewell to him. But yeah, I think there's some which are fairly straightforward. So where do you want to start? To start, we'll just... As much as I love my team sheets being 15-9, 1-8, we'll just go to Numerity, just because it's easier. So if we go start in the front row... It's not the come-farewell, but it's the last game for us. Yeah, it is the last game for us. Obviously, Osprey's type 5 is their strength, and they are strong bench and starting as well. They've got two excellent front rows there. So they... They've been starting with Botha recently, I think, haven't they? And then Henry's been backing him up, is that right? Typically, yeah. So I wonder... I think Ben Warren's been injured or something, because they did a lot of backup loose head when required as well. Yes. So I'm thinking Dormer starts against Botha, and then Carey comes on against whoever the backup tighthead is on the day. Warren or Henry. Belcher at hooker is fairly straightforward. And then Azar at tighthead. So back to the Ronda front row. If in doubt, Ronda front row. And then Littrich got changed tighthead again. Yeah, Littrich and Evan Lloyd, that seems to be the settled now. Evan Daniel's an interesting one, in that, obviously, he went to South Africa, but on my squad list of next season, he's still very much questionable contract-wise. He last was announced to sign a new contract two years ago, and contracts typically are run for two years. So I'm not sure what the state of play with him is. He probably wants to be playing more regularly, but whether he can go anywhere to get that, I'm not sure. Hooker's an interesting one, generally, I think, just for Cardiff, because Dav Hughes is out of contract as well, whether they look to pick anyone up. I noticed Justin Harris was released by Exeter recently, formerly of this parish, but didn't hardly play at all down there because of injury. But yeah, as a side point. Exeter have been very good at that, mopping up loads of up-and-coming Welsh people, and then just throwing them if they're not instantly... Yeah, there's... I do think part of that is, I think, because with the proposed salary cap increase, I think they're restricting the England-based player as well. Yeah, they did stockpile Welsh talent a couple of years ago, and are probably paying the price for that a little bit now. Yeah, but that was an aside point about Hooker. Yeah, I think Lloyd has probably settled down as the second choice now at the end of this season. I think second row is relatively straightforward. I suppose that's probably Sevan Thornton are the two available. We know Teddy's done, and I don't think we're going to see Tamani again. So, but the question is, does he start both of his available second rows and then has, like, a Shane Lewis Hughes on the bench? Or whether he starts Shane with Seb and then brings Thornton on? I mean, that's sort of how he's preferred to have it, so he's sort of split his bulk across it. Yeah. And have Donald and Shane Lewis Hughes. So, I think Donald's done quite well in the second row as well. He has, to be fair. And they could bring him back if Mann is available. Mann went to South Africa, didn't play in either game, so we assume carried a knock and wasn't quite fit in time, I would imagine, rather than was dropped altogether. That would be quite bizarre for him to suddenly drop out of the 23. So, if Mann comes back in at six, then he could... Then Shane could miss out as somebody who's leaving, and Donald and Seb start with Thornton on the bench, maybe? Yeah, I like that. I like that. I like Donald and Seb. I think, again, it's athletic, but Donald does have that extra bit of grit. Yeah, I think it matches up with... I'd say he has a bit more of the nastiness that we've been looking for in the second row of them. If you assume that Ospreys are going to... Because it doesn't sound like Fender's going to be fit. He hasn't trained yet, I think it was reported, at the end of last week. So, if you assume that it's Ratty and Sutton is their start in the second row, I think Ratty matches up quite well with Donald, and Seb matches up quite well with Sutton in that engine room there. So, it's pretty decent. And then back row of... Well, the question mark is Ellis Jenkins in the back row a little bit. Obviously, he didn't go to South Africa, was on holiday then, just on a personal holiday with his other half for a week while we were just coming back, I think, from South Africa. So, there was a suggestion a little while ago that his contract actually expires on the 31st of May. Therefore, he's out of contract on the 1st of June for Judgment Day. I don't know how true... It would be a very bizarre one. It would be. I don't know how true that is or not, to be honest. It would be a very Welsh rugby thing. Yeah. But, I suppose Mann, Vogts and Martin is maybe the obvious choice. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Unless you're going to give reward Lawrence for his good play, then give Max off the bench again. Yeah. I mean, that did work well. Yeah. I suppose, yeah, he could... I think Lawrence did quite well off the bench then in the first game in South Africa. So, in terms of which one of them starts off 6-1, half a dozen of the other, I guess, really. They're both fine from the start and on the bench. I wonder if maybe he just gives Martin this one as it's a final audition ahead of the summer tour because you imagine the Wales coach is in there. I like the sound of that. So, I think, yeah, by having Mann, Vogts and Mack, you know, it's probably the best Wales audition. I mean, the most likely Wales. Does that name go back to the second row? Does that give Shane Lewis-Hughes a thing? I think because he's leaving. Yeah, I just... Because of that as well, they might not. And, yeah, I don't know how seriously the Wales coaches would consider him as the second row at the test level. I think it'd be very much the Aaron Shingler of it. Yeah. There's no one else. Especially when you've got the likes of Plumtree. Yeah, Plumtree, I think it kind of jumped him in that position there, isn't it? Yeah, for South Africa and then obviously Christian who's actually playing quite well for Exeter. Yeah. He's playing a lot more in the second row towards the end of the season, which is quite useful. So, yeah, I'm happy with that. And then Lawrence is your bench guy then with... There's the question. We'll do a 6-2 question in a bit, maybe. But against the Ospreys, he might fancy that. I think if he's going to go 6-2, then that might be where we see an Ellis. Yeah. I was wondering if Ellis isn't very important. Do you feel like we need seven cover? I suppose Mann probably is the most likely to go over. If he went 6-2 and it's the end of season, dead rubber a little bit. I wondered if he just went Dela Rua for a bit of experience as your seven cover as well. He's always done right when he's stepped up. Are we going to throw Dela Rua in? Yeah, why not? Yeah. He's going away with the Twenties in a bit now, so he'll do well. It'd be good for him to get some minutes under his belt there. So I think that Chouinot is available for this game. It sounds like he is. Put him on the bench. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. He is going to play with a bionic face, so that's the best way of easing him back in, is to put him straight in from the start. There is a debate about 10 now, I think. Thomas was good against the Sharks. I think back to Wales auditions, I'm sure Gatland would very much like to see him at 10 in a Welsh derby. Tobias played a lot of rugby, was good off the bench against the Sharks as well, I thought, brought a bit of energy and allows Thomas then to switch back into 12 if needed. But if we're assuming that Lilo plays, does he go quite big and quite physical and perhaps plays Thomas 10, Lilo 12, Brady 13 and go quite direct in midfield? It could also be farewell for Halaholo and putting him at 12 as well. They could stick with Halaholo and Lilo. I don't think it works for the other games we've tried it this season. It worked great for the Sharks. My gut feeling is that I don't think he does Halaholo it. I think the back three pretty much picks itself in that it's win it Adams-Cabango. So there's not really room for Brady to switch out there. He presumably wants Brady to play at 13 and bring him back in unless he's going to bench Brady again. I think it is the Lilo thing that's thrown a spanner in the works because that definitely suggests it was Without that post, I probably wouldn't have selected I wouldn't be putting Lilo in there. I think he would have got, in my mind, he'd just go back to De Bea, Thomas, Brady, Adams-Cabango, win it as your outside backs. But with that Lilo post, is he going to start Lilo at 13? Maybe he pushes Brady to 12 and we see that a bit more after that Italy game. It's definitely something that Gatton might be keen on having our best running back. Especially for that South Africa game where they're going to need, with the pack that is available, is not going to be particularly overpowered. There will need to be some people in the back line who can help out with the carry in any physical game a bit because I think we're going to struggle for any sort of game line, or parity otherwise. What do you think, Woodfield? I think he sort of rested De Bea because he needed an anointing cover. So I feel like, given the option, Sherratt's always gone to De Bea at 10 for as long as possible, so I'd be tempted maybe... The thing is for me is, isn't De Bea going to be a bit more The thing is for me is, does he want Lilo to come off during the middle of the game so you get the celebrations or is he to come on to some applause? Just from a, not from an emotional one, but from a tactical standpoint, I think the better option would be Lilo starts and then Grady comes on after sort of like 50 minutes or whatever. Because I think Grady's more likely to have an impact off the bench than Lilo is. So on that basis it could be De Bea, Thomas, Lilo, they're just starting 10, 12, 13 and then Grady off the bench. But then again, I say that, I feel like Grady doesn't really need the audition. No, I think he nailed that. Yeah, he's not somebody who, like same as like, you know, Winnett doesn't need to play. If he started Betham, you might understand that who is somebody who might fancy an audition. But yeah, I think whereas, yeah, there's question marks over that back row selection, but it's always competitive. Grady is basically the only fit 13 in Wales, like out and out, outside centre. Yeah, I mean, you're looking at him and, really you're looking at him and Watkins as our 13 option. Yeah, and Watkins is, is very much a 12 and a half in that sense as well. He's not, he's not what you would class as a natural 13, I don't think. He plays like a 12, he's shifted out. As much as people have been watching Lando of Rio, I'm very excited about it. I'm very much doubt Matt's page gets older. It would be the biggest Welsh rugby shock for a long while. Yeah. So, so team, we've got it, to see if we're happy. So, I am going to do it the correct way now. So we've got 15 to know, we've got Winnett, Adam's right wing, Lilo outside centre, Ben Thomas, inside centre, Tia Cabango, left wing. De Beers and Bevan as our halfbacks. And then, in the pack we've got, they're on the front row, Sobolewski, Belcher, Azorati, Ben Nolan and Seb in the engine room, Alex Mann, James Botham and Big Mac as our back end. So that's our run on the side. And then on the bench, we've got Evan Lloyd, Carey and Mieczyszczyk. And then, Thornton's our second row, as a sort of second row cover. Then Alan Lawrence and Lucas de la Rua, sort of back row, maybe with Alan Lawrence, maybe having to cover second row if we're in double straights. Then our backup backs are Gonzalo Bertrano, coming back from injury, and Nathan Grady. If that was announced, I'd be very happy with that, I have to say. I'd be overjoyed that we predicted that. I'd say that's a good sign. Having a Beetham in, or Shane Lewis Hughes, I don't think, you know, if Ellis Jenkins is in, I don't think it weakens it that much. But again, if we end up with 5-3, and we end up with Beetham on the bench, then again, you've got your 12th cover there as well. Yeah, there's some very good travelling reserves available there, certainly. Yeah, I think, and I would give that side, you know, more than a fighting chance against the Ospreys, in terms of just pure, on paper, head to head. There's definitely match-ups there, which I would put Cardiff ahead. As many head-to-heads I would give to Cardiff as I would give to the Ospreys, probably. It'll come down to, perhaps, Ospreys have got a better conversion rate of games in that final, sort of, 15 minutes. They have won quite a few games that were tense, whereas we, as we well know from our bonus point, Tally, have generally come out on the wrong side of them. So, although we are still second favourites, that team would definitely keep us within, sort of, seven points on the betting, I would argue. Yeah, I think so. One thing I do think needs, we all played for, is Adam Jones, the referee. So, when we've had him, he's not been the biggest fan of how we approached the breakdown. Yeah, yeah, that's probably fair. But then again, also, I know Ospreys fans are absolutely dreading him as well, so I think that's probably a good sign. It's interesting that, the two teams that you could match up, you could almost argue, if we start with a back row of man, both him and Martin, that actually, Ospreys have got more natural jacklers than we do. If, you know, Nicky, Nicky Smith loves the turnover. If they go, with, is Jack Morgan, Morgan and Tipric, presumably six and seven, is it? Are they going to be the six and seven, Tipric and Morgan? Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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