Goth draft

In this podcast episode, the hosts discuss goth music and their personal experiences with it. They mention watching the movie Barbie and enjoying the music in it. They introduce their guest, Ryan Schaaf, who loves goth music but doesn't identify as a goth. The hosts and Ryan talk about their favorite goth bands and how they got into the genre. They also mention the influence of other genres like rock and psychedelic music on goth. The hosts then discuss the band The Cure and Ryan defends them against the notion that they are overrated. He highlights the band's versatility and ability to evoke different emotions. The hosts and Ryan also mention other favorite bands like Soundgarden and Black Sabbath. Oh hang on, yeah, what are we calling this podcast? Was it Over Under Rated? Over Under Rated. Over Under Rated. Over Under Rated. Over Under Rated. Over Under Rated. Over Under Rated. Welcome to another episode of Over Under Rated with Babs and Fran. I am Babs and joining me as ever is my co-host Fran. How are you today, Fran? Hello everyone in the podcast world. I am fine on a semi-sunny day in England and I believe you've just been to see a film, Babs. I have just gone to see Barbie the Movie. I'm wearing pink eyeshadow and a rainbow dress, very unlike me. Yeah, it was really, really good, really funny. Ryan Gosling needs that Oscar. And the music was really fantastic and well put into the film, I thought as well. Obviously it finished with the new version of Barbie Girl by Nicki Minaj and iSpice. Yeah, I'd recommend it to anyone. Really, so much more hilarious than I thought it would be. But you saw another film last night, I heard. I saw Oppenheimer. Not as many pop songs, to be fair. No bangers? Not many bangers. But I definitely want to watch. And we're going to be discussing some filmic artists. Some gloomier music. Gloomy, who've also been featured in many soundtracks. We are doing a goth episode, are we not? We are doing a goth episode and we're not alone. We are joined by someone who I don't know if they describe themselves as a goth or goth adjacent. It's Ryan Schaaf from the Broken Record label. Hi, Ryan. I wouldn't call myself a goth at all. I would say that I love goth music. But I have a hard time going out in public wearing some of the stuff that goths wear. So I wouldn't identify as a goth. But I love a lot of goth things. Movies, literature, music. I appreciate the fashion, but I can't pull it off. There's levels to it, right? The classic wearing all black and then there's all the intricate face makeup especially. Fran, I know that you are more of a kind of dress up kind of person. Have you done a particularly gothy outfit any time? No, I've not done much backcombing or crucifixes, to be fair. I've done like zombie adamant. But yeah, I've not done the crow as yet. I think I need to be a lot skinnier to be able to pull it off, to be fair. Listen, I've just gone to Barbie for film. Barbie is for everyone. Goth is for everyone too. This could be true. Babs, have you had a goth period? No, not really. I have a perfect profile for a goth because I have dark hair, dark eyes and pale skin. So I would be perfect for just dabbing a powder. But no, I think I'm someone who, especially as a teenager, wore more black clothes. But I was more into, let's say, like rock rather than goth specifically. And I think especially the bands that are associated with goth, which I'm sure we'll mention more than once, but like Suzie and the Banshees and Joy Division and all that. I mean, some I didn't get into until I was an adult, like Suzie and the Banshees. I really only got into, I don't know, five, six years ago. And others, I was like, oh, I can appreciate the gleaminess and I will be a sad teenager in my room. But yeah. But how about you, Ryan? What started it for you? So I've always been drawn to darker music. And I think it started off with like gothic metal. I got really into bands like Type O Negative and the 69 Eyes and groups like that. And then I started to discover The Cure and Suzie and the Banshees, probably like late high school. Early college, though, is when it really blew up. So about, I'd say about 15 years ago or so, that's when I really started getting into goth music. And it's kind of cliche to say this, but one of the big reasons was going through an emotional time and relationship issues. And that's kind of what propelled me towards this kind of music. And I'm sure that's the case for many people. It's kind of a go-to response for, hey, why did you get into this dark, gothy music? Well, my girlfriend broke up with me or my boyfriend broke up with me. That's kind of what happened. But I had always been interested in that kind of music even before when I was a little bit younger. So middle school, I'd say, is when I started listening to what you could call goth music. Were you one of the only people into that genre or were there other people around you who were also into that? Was it friends that got you into it? I found it by myself. Most of my friends were listening to new metal and metalcore and punk. And so I kind of found the goth music on my own. And even to this day, I have friends who listen to it. But I would say even to this day, I'm pretty much the only make-friend person in my group who is really, really into it. So I have friends who obviously like The Cure and Suzie and the Banshees, but they probably don't know who the other band we're going to talk about today is, XMAL Deutschland, right? Or groups like Corpus Divicti or whatever. They don't know these groups. So it's kind of one of those things where I got super into it and I started researching everything I could about it. And all my other friends were like, yeah, it's pretty cool. I think you're in the company of two other obsessives we can identify. Yeah, Fran, were you into goth music at all? I mean, I was in the UK as a teenager, but you're a little bit older than me. I feel like it started more in the 80s. Were there more local goths in your area or anything? I think where I live, if there was a goth, everyone would stare at them. It's rare to see a goth in the 90s. But I guess I like gothy bands like Percebo and The Cure and I guess Strip Music and some dark bands like Joy Division. But I would never call myself a goth. I've never gone to a goth club. It's just, I guess, Alternative 80s has a lot of gothic bands like Sister of Mercy. So I'm a fan because I like the mixture of a harder guitar along with synths. And that seems to be a lot of the core sound a lot with bands. But I have never heard of the band we're discussing later on. I know The Cure and I'm sure we'll be talking about The Cure very soon. Indeed. I will say that I really enjoyed reading, in quite length and detail, the Gothic Rock Wikipedia article. Because what I found especially interesting was what they said were the early influences. Because there was a music journalist that called The Doors gothic. Which I was like, what? And then you think about it and you're like, okay, fair enough. Because it was psychedelic, but it was very dark. And he was talking about it's the kind of themes of violence mixed with a kind of psychedelic element. And yeah, they were saying that people like Bowie, Eno and Iggy Pop influenced goth. And I was like, what? But again, I guess in the music experimentalism sense, it was. And I also found intriguing that Nico was in Velvet Underground and Nico. They said that her album, The Marble Index, was considered the first goth album. But then it might also be Bela Lugosi's Dead by Bauhaus. So yeah, it was interesting to see how there's not any clear kind of definition of it. Even though, yeah, there's, like you said, the synths and the guitars. Some gloomy themes. So yeah, it was very fun to read up on it. So yeah, Ryan, do you want to introduce the first band we're discussing in my opinion? So I am going to be defending this band. I think you're right. If you were to ask me, what are your top five favorite groups of all time? They're in the top five for me. Here's the other four out of curiosity. I'd probably have to pick Soundgarden. I'm a huge Bowie fan. I know you guys covered Bowie. I do love The Doors. And I also really like... I love Black Sabbath. So those are some of my favorite bands. I'd have to really think about what the top five would be for sure. But I know The Cure are in there. 100%. Okay. Interesting. Here's why I don't think that they're overrated. So for me, I think The Cure are one of those groups who unfortunately get boxed into a specific category, which is goth in this case. But they're much more than that. And if you listen to their catalog, you find that they not only do their albums change and evolve from one style to another, like if you listen to Pornography, for example, which is probably their darkest album, and then listen to the one right after it, which is called The Top. It's this trippy, psychedelic, poppy album. It's kind of a statement to, I would say, the band, but mainly Robert Smith's versatility as a songwriter. They can make you feel a wide range of emotions, from laughter to sadness. There's a humor to this band. They don't always take themselves very seriously. I think goths tend to think that they do, but there's a lot of humor even in their darker moments. And I think that they can give you a lot of different feelings. It doesn't matter what the time is, how you're feeling. There's sunny songs, there's moody songs. There's a lot of versatility there. Excellent opening defense. Because a lot of goth bands kind of stick to the same formula. They kind of pick this droney, gloomy, dark tone, and they just kind of run with it, and that's what they do for every album. And The Cure didn't do that. The Cure were like, yeah, we'll have a kind of gloomy album here, but then let's do something trippy, and let's kind of do something a little bit more alternative. And so they were able to do a lot of different things. And I know their best songs, or their hit songs that are on the radio all the time, songs like Friday I'm in Love and Just Like Heaven, those don't sound very gloomy or gothy. So you can tell that this band is able to do more than just what they're kind of, I guess, categorized as. And I would say their hit songs, like those songs aren't even their best songs. Those aren't even the songs I really like. I mean, I'm kind of tired of Just Like Heaven, to be honest. I've heard it, yeah, it's on all the time. It's probably on right now somewhere. And it doesn't really represent their career. I think that the songs that are really popular tend to show them kind of as this heartbreak band, or a band to listen to when you're in love or whatever. But honestly, some of their best songs are never played at all. And so I think that's kind of the hallmark of a great band too, is when their hits are not even their best songs, and their best songs are their deeper catalog, because they have so much material to choose from. I think that's another testament to just how varied they are and how much they have to work with. Frank, you know more of the Tours by Catalog than I do. Yeah, I think two or three times I've done a deep dive of listening to every single album by The Cure. How many are there, roughly? Like 20, 60? Like 14 or something, I don't know. Yeah, I've not listened to The Glug, which is like a side project with Suits and the Banshees. And I think I own... The first album I bought was random. I bought the B-side collection with random songs, the songs from the soundtrack. I don't own any disco albums. I've never found a Cure album I would say I love. I guess people would say Pornography, It's Integration, and The Head on the Door are the three biggest albums. But yeah, I struggle to adore any Cure albums. I like a lot of songs scattered across their band catalog. So I see them live twice. And, you know, 2018 at Hyde Park was perfect. They played every single song I wanted to hear, including Burn, and it was perfect. But the first time I went to see them was 2009, and he just did a decision of going back to basics with no keyboardist. And The Cure have a lot of keyboard sounds. So hearing Love Cats without a keyboard is not the same thing at all. And also it was one of those three-hour gigs when they played a lot of songs I had never heard. For an hour, I was just staring at them. So it was not a good experience. So thank heavens that they did Hyde Park and they played every single song I want because that was very different. And I think that's quite common for Cure gigs. They can do three-hour gigs. They can go really deep, can't they? I will say at the end, I think everyone's rated. But I adore The Cure at their best. They're one of the best bands ever. And even Robert Smith wouldn't describe his band as a goth band. I think he said that we fell through the goth net because we've got a sense of humour. And I love Mozart, Cocteau Trance, and Pornhub Jewel. It would be very dull to be into one genre. And I think half of it is just his appearance. If he wore a white silk suit and had blonde hair, people wouldn't be calling them a goth band because they probably had maybe two or three albums you could even deem as being goth. I guess, is it the trilogy? They seem to be linked together. Right. Maybe even phase two, possibly. Yeah. The top's like a weird, almost solo album. Lots of keyboards and experiments. And Kiss Kiss Kiss is basically a pure double-top album. And then in the 90s, they started to do dance music. So, you know, yeah. To me, I think it's unfair to call them a goth band. I think that's lazy because, obviously, his look. Do you know how he got his look, guys? No, I actually don't. So when he was in Suzie and the Banshees, when they sacked half the band, or either half the band left or sacked half the band, he became their guitar player while Secure was supporting. So he was doing both bands at the same time. And he was experimenting with harder drugs. And he found Suzie's makeup kit. And when he looked at himself, he enjoyed it. And that's where he came from. Because he's in the Banshees, he also started to wear similar clothes. That's why he started to wear black more. Because before then, Secure didn't have a style. Just like three guys. And yeah, that's where the Robert Smith look came from. And apparently, his wife, Mary Paul, enjoyed him in lipstick. So he thought, okay. That's a great story. I love that story. He just was high on drugs with Suzie's makeup kit. That's awesome. Yeah, I had no idea. There's such strong links between Suzie and The Cure. It makes sense. And I think you both kind of answered my question of why they're considered a goth band. Because I never really understood that. Because from what I know, if anything, it was more New Wave to me than goth. But yeah, like I said, I know even less than a grand. So my introduction to The Cure was my mom buying The Greatest Hits album, and as with many Greatest Hits albums that I have, I didn't even listen to all of that. In fact, one of the songs that you picked, I was like, I don't know this song. And then they played it, and I was like, oh, I know this. And I know this is from The Greatest Hits album, but it's just not one that I listen to as much. And I think, yeah, The Cure songs that I like, I really like. My two favorites are A Forest and Lullaby, and they're fairly big songs. When I don't like them, I really don't like them. It's just not for me, basically. I find that because they have this, you know, frighteningly big back catalogue, 13 studio albums, by the way, I looked it up, I never really know where to start. I think I did try to venture into Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me, and I really liked The Kiss, but it's a bit like with David Bowie, where I will listen to a Cure song somewhere, somehow, either on God's Jukebox, the social music platform, or someone will recommend me a song, and I'll save them. And I looked today, and I have about, like, 14 different Cure songs saved, but if they're not the ones that I know I actually don't go back to them that often. And I've always been sure that there's more to like, even if there is some stuff that I didn't like. So, yeah, I'm glad we're discussing them today. And before we get into it, Ryan, I just wanted to ask, with such a big back catalogue, what was your rationale for making this playlist? Because it isn't just, like, there's one song, and then it's definitely kind of the purebred sound, but were you trying to show lesser-known songs that you think should be better known? The variety of the Cure, what was your rationale? Yeah, so when I put this together, my rationale was, well, first off, what songs do I really like that I can also share with somebody who maybe isn't as familiar with the Cure to show them kind of a variety of styles? So I wanted to include their really gothy stuff, but some of their poppier stuff, and then also kind of some of their more 90s, alternative-sounding stuff. So I wanted to pick a little bit of a range to show that, hey, this band is not just this way or that way. They have a multitude of layers to them. And I also, most of these songs, I would say, all of these songs are on a playlist of mine somewhere. Like, these are five of my favorite Cure songs. The third one, not as much of a favorite, but I wanted to include it because I think it's kind of a very different-sounding Cure than what most people think of when they think of the Cure. So I wanted to include that one, too, just to kind of, I guess, spice it up a bit, give it a little funk. Okay, spice it up indeed. What's your first pick, then, Ryan? My first pick is the song, Open. And this is from the Wish album, which came out, I believe, in 92. And when I saw them live, I also saw them play a three-and-a-half-hour show, Fran. So it was great, though. And this was the song they started with. And I just remember hearing it live. I'd heard it before on CD many times, but hearing it live, it was just like, oh, man, this is a great opener. And I think that this song, it's not particularly well-known. I wouldn't call it a hit. But I just like how the song kind of builds to the vocals and to Robert Smith just kind of comes in after about a minute, and it kind of, I think that's something that Cure do really well, is they don't just start off right away with the vocals. They kind of give you this kind of atmosphere, this little build before Robert comes in. And I also like this dark, psychedelic sound that it has to it. It's kind of got an eerie guitar tone and a jangly bass. So I think this represents the Cure's ability to craft something beautiful, but also kind of slightly macabre, too. It has this kind of spooky atmosphere to it, which I really love. And I presume, did you know this song? Did you know all the songs on this playlist, I imagine? Yeah, I did know all the songs. So yeah, I think Open opened when I saw them, I think. Which is, I guess, one of their most poppy albums. That's got High and Friday I'm In Love. Yeah. And then it does have these longer tracks. But yeah, it's got like a dirty sort of backing track, and then it does use this sort of flantic guitar to create an atmosphere. But it's got lots of unexpected changes. We have Chorus, it does have lots of changes in pace to get back to the main flow. It's got great songs by Boba Williams, I believe. It's especially good live to check out on YouTube. I think it's about him being anxious at an industry party or something. Good question. I read a thing about alcohol. Oh, did you? Oh, OK. Because it's basically like slash drinking to deal with social anxiety kind of thing. Because it is... The lyrics are pretty depressing. I wouldn't put it on, especially, but I think that it's a great opener for any live gig or... I've seen it open. It makes sense in context. I mean, it wouldn't be a single, but again, with a lot of short songs, they do go on for quite some time. But I think that lots of documentary, as I do, and he was a big Tod Rock fan in the mid-70s, so I think some of that has leaked into the cure. But Babs, is this the first time you've heard it open? It is. I think I only knew one song from this list, so I'm coming in new. I love this, and it's funny because you both talked about it opening the gigs you went to, and I've written, oh, strong opening, as in the opening of the song, so clearly we can't stop punning. The beginning reminded me, and this is not the only time I'm going to say this, of Peter Hook bass line mixed with How Soon Is Now guitar, the coming in, and I was surprised to hear that sound. I really loved it. I liked how... I put in shoegazy it was, because it's dirty, but it's light, right? It's not too kind of... That's coming in the underrated band. I like how his voice moves from high to low so you can feel the despair, and also when you especially feel the despair in his very high, the cymbals come crashing in. I agree with you. The drums are excellent. Yeah, this one I loved straight away, and because it's, like Fran said, it takes unexpected turns. On the second listening, I got into it even more, because then you start getting into the atmosphere. So, yeah, really, really good first choice. And just the lyrics. All the smiles that I wear, all the games that I play, and all the drinks that I mix, and I drink until I'm sick, and all the faces I make, and all the shakes that I throw, and all the people I meet, and all the words that I know. Oh, yes, please! Yeah, really, really enjoyed reading the lyrics. That's the most of my bias, too, Robert. But I guess, I think, it's quite clever. I mean, they do do a lot of pop songs, but his voice stops it from being a cheesy pop song, because obviously, his voice is the cure sound, and he's blessed to have that unique voice. Oh, it's a cure. So he could sing, you know, a lullaby, and it would instantly sound cool and alternative. You know how Scott Powell sings? Yeah. He wouldn't be allowed to be doing cats on stage, even though he doesn't love cats, but... I'm potatoed. But yeah, but his voice is perfect, and he can do emotion, he can do happy, he can do it all. Yeah. He's got such a great sense of humour, too. I mean, yeah, when I sent Fran the video that went viral of him at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame with a very enthusiastic view, he was like, I think you're more excited than I am. He's like, we'll just get a couple of drinks in us, and he's like, God forbid. Right, I'm always interested, because people say that The Cure are one of the most English-sounding bands. So I'm always surprised why they do so well in America. Are you not put off by his gossip? He talks about football, he talks about... They're not very Atlantic-looking, are they, The Cure? No, I never really thought of them being very English, for whatever reason. So, I guess it never really crossed my mind until I went to England and I was on the tour, and my tour guide, one of my friends, for whatever reason, was wearing eyeliner. I don't know why, but I think he just did it to be funny or something. And our tour guide was like, hey, you look a lot like Robert Smith. And I was like, oh yeah, Robert Smith, he's from England. Yeah, that's right. He's the reference. So I guess it never really crossed my mind until I heard him speaking in interviews, and that came out a little bit more. It's interesting that you say, just like Heaven's Overplayed. In the UK, it wasn't even on the Top 20 single. When I spent time in America, it's really interesting to hear what they play compared to the UK. And in the UK, I've never heard Pits of You or Dusk Like Heaven on the radio. And in America, I heard those songs constantly. We get Boys Don't Cry, Close to You, and For I Don't Love, and that's pretty much it, I think. I've definitely heard, just like Heaven in Belgium, definitely. And also, I feel like in film soundtracks or something like that, I've heard it a lot. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, Dusk Like Heaven is nice sometimes. It's interesting when you look at UK chart hits. I thought Dusk Like Heaven would be a Top 10 hit, but no. No, that's weird. I have notes on chart placements coming up in a bit. So don't get too excited. All right. My next pick is Very Dark, The Hanging Garden, off their darkest album, arguably, Pornography. What I really like about this song is, well, I love the drums. It's got this tribal, rhythmic, driving force. I believe it's Lol Tolhurst, because it's a three-piece band at this point. But I also just love how Robert Smith, he's almost like torturously singing at you. His sound here is very pained. And if you look into the making of this album, it was not a happy process. Apparently, everyone was going through some tough shit, and Robert Smith was heavily drinking, doing drugs. In fact, he said at one point, they had cans of beer just stacked up in a corner, and it was creating this tower of beer or something. And there was just a lot of stuff going on that put him in a bad space. And so you can kind of hear it in songs like this, but this is another part of The Cure that I love, is this just tortured sound, which is perfect for curling up in a corner in the dark somewhere. But it's also great for a rainy day. I love listening to this whole album, really. Pornography, when it's a gloomy day out, it just really evokes this foreboding atmosphere. Especially now, San Francisco is always kind of cloudy and foggy, so listening to this album out here is always a good choice. But yeah, this is one of my favorite songs. They played it live. When I saw them, it sounded great. I guess The Forest, this, and Shout Out Sometimes are the three most cocky songs I can think of for The Cure, maybe. Lullaby, as well. Yeah. I guess a bit more slick. Yeah. Do you know what? I can't stand Lullaby unless it's done live, because I hate whispering. Oh yeah! Unless they're a Geordie. So I remember this. A hushed Geordie whisper. But yeah, so anything that's live is fine. But that album, I'm not a big fan of. But yeah, this has got Simon Gallop's bass line. He's like the only concert member most of the time. I know he's come back and forth, but I think he's been in the band for the last 35 years now. Again, it's got the ambient sort of touch guitar. It's got that echoey Cure sound that spires your guitar. I guess it's a proto-goth sound when you think of the Cure. Although, as we said before, there's a lot more colours than this. And yeah, it's got that Geordie division and that sort of guitar pedal sound that says goth. Which a lot of people use. I don't know what the effect's actually called. Okay, we're now in that sort of place. And we're going to mention this film later on, but James O'Barr who wrote The Crow, he included the lyric to this in The Crow, and that's where he asked the Cure to if they could use this song in the film The Crow, but he said, no, I will make a better song. Right, which was a bit later. So Paz, what are your thoughts on this? Yeah, this is the gothy sound that I would expect. I would have expected this to be the first Cure song I ever heard. I was like, aha, yes, we've got it. I was surprised that the drums were so military-esque, as you say, and everyone, well, not everyone, I saw lots of things and I was like, yeah, we're ripping off Sissy and the Banshees. For me, it's more Adam and the Ants just because that's the reference that I know better. But despite all of those names, also I agree with you on Joy Division, the bass as well for me is also very Peter Hook again. I don't think it sounds derivative. I think it's a good mix of those influences. And yeah, this is actually, you mentioned it in the song before, but this is the song where I was like, God, he's got such a unique voice. It's so interesting because it could quite easily sound annoying because he is like crying a lot, but it's just, I feel like, just on the right edge of like, you know, you're enthralled, you want to hear what this man has to say, but, you know, it's not too nasally, it's not too whiny. I enjoyed it, but I listened to it three times and I didn't feel the need to go and listen to it again. I would say, like, maybe this is something that I would have to be in a mood to go and, like you suggested, Ryan, go off and discover the Pornography album, be in a really shitty mood. It's actually pretty grey in Brussels here today, to be honest. Maybe this is a way that I should go and do it. Come up on the sofa after this record and just listen to this album. I guess it's a great post-Barbie album. Oh, yes. Yes, it is. Absolutely. I will tell you this about the Barbie film. There are some indie rock references that you do not expect, and I will leave it at that. But, yeah, I did say what they were on my Twitter, so don't look at that. But, yeah, I mean, you mentioned, you know, Ryan, that you're in San Francisco and it's Cardi, but it does intrigue me because I think the last episode I guess on your podcast, the Breaking Record Player podcast, I think you mentioned going to a goth bar. And it does seem to me that in California, maybe San Francisco specifically, there is this kind of goth scene, and there's definitely like a dark wave scene, right, which is not a million miles away from this, with the cold caves and the Drab Majesties and stuff. So, yeah, is there one? What's it like? Why do you think it's so burgeoning, despite the mostly sunny weather? Yeah, well, that's the thing. California isn't really always sunny, and especially up here in the North and in the Bay, it's quite cold out here. I mean, for California standards, it never where I live exactly, it never gets, well, it rarely gets above 60 degrees. But, yeah, there is a goth scene out here, and there's a goth club that is still open that I go to. I used to go to it a lot more, especially before COVID, but I've been going to it again more and more. And, yeah, like the Drab Majesties and groups like Christian Death and 45 Grave, they're all from L.A. I think, because California is seen as this sunny place, that there's a lot of California is very materialistic, and especially L.A., and even up here in the Bay with the tech boom, and, you know, like Facebook and Apple and everything up here, there is a sense of I think there's a little bit of a rebellion against a lot of this stuff, and I think goth does well out here because of that, because it's like there needs to be something to contrast that, like overly materialistic, capitalist, and very, how would I describe it, kind of vain lifestyle, and I think the goth scene does a good job of kind of countering that and being the rival or the opposite of that, I should say. Oh, interesting. Well, yeah, you all need light and shade, but I guess the Pashmobha movement seems to be massive in L.A. and California, and they're on the goth spectrum, I would say. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. So, what's your next pick? My next pick is not goth at all, it is The Walk, and so this is a pretty upbeat song off their album Japanese Whispers, and I kind of picked this just to take a little bit of a break from the doom and gloom, but also to show the range. I really like this groove, the beat, it's a great dance song, and I've heard the song many times, I've heard most of these songs at the club that I go to every once in a while, but, yeah, I think it's really cool to see a goth club. I mean, it's fun to just kind of people-watch at these places, because the dancing is really, really good. I enjoy it, yeah, exactly. Brandon's demonstrating something. Brandon's doing a fantastic job of demonstrating what they actually do. But seeing all the different age groups dancing to songs like this is actually really, really kind of inspiring, because you see old goths, you see young goths, you see a whole mixture of people who love The Cure, and songs like this, even though it's not really goth, I mean, they still dance to songs like this, so I think this is one of their bigger hits, I'm not sure, but it, I'm pretty sure it's on a lot of their compilation records. Fran, correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah, it was on the first compilation called Japanese Whisper, but yeah, I think this always makes the best source in the UK definitely. Yeah, it's definitely more accessible than the last song. Very 80s, I mean, it's a time capsule in a lot of ways, it's very much a product of the 80s, but it has this funky, groovier, new-wavy sound than the other tracks on here. It's produced by Simon, I don't know how you say his name, I think it's Nye, and he's the guy who produced Japan, Tin Drum, who we've previously spoken about, who could have linked to the Asian sounding element of this. I'm not a big fan of that keyboard sound for the main riff. I think it just screams, we're in the 80s a bit too much for me. I mean, we were. Oh yeah, I know, 83. I think this is just after Pornography and half the band had quit, so it's just Noel and Robert left, which is why there's no live drums, it's more of a different sound than previous work. This was their first Top 20 hit in the UK. Oh wow. This is it, yeah. So I forgot to mention, I teased chart positions, so surprisingly The Hanging Garden got to 34 in the UK, and this got to 12. But yeah, it surprised me, because as you say Ryan, it's much more accessible. So this is a song that I knew, had not realised, I must have listened to this at 80s nights, God knows what, but it's on the Greatest Hits album, and it's in between songs that I would normally listen to, so I'm just really surprised. I was prepared for it because I was listening to the previous song while making notes, you know, like typing out everything out, and I went onto the Wikipedia page of this song, and the categories were Euro Disco and Synth Pop, and I was like, what the fuck? So I was like, I absolutely love this, I don't think I've heard it in about, yeah, I haven't chosen to listen to it in about 20 years. I wouldn't have guessed it was The Cure, I would have guessed it was some kind of early Depeche Mode B-side or something like that. I really like the keyboard sound, and of course the Japanese sound obviously reminds me of Japan, and Bigger Japan by Alphaville. I think when, I remember my parents just saying that Japan was just really fashionable in the 80s, like, it was, yeah, fashionable in every sense, not just music, and that's why it's so mentioned. But I was also very curious to see that on Spotify, Mark Saunders is featured, so it's like The Cure, Mark Saunders, and I think he also co-produced this. And he's the guy who produced Dancing in the Street and Buffalo Stamps by Neneh Cherry, so he's got a solid background for that, man. Yeah, absolutely love this, save this immediately to listen to again. So what's your next choice, Ryan, your fourth pick? My fourth pick is another pretty big song by them, Pictures of You. This was the song that really captivated me the most when I first heard Disintegration, and that was the first album I ever listened to, was Disintegration. This is, I think this is one of those cliche breakup songs, but it's also a romantic song, so it can go both ways. But I just, I think it's beautiful. I think that it has this also nostalgic quality to it, can conjure up memories. I find, this is one of those songs where I, it's really easy to kind of get daydreamy about with a song like this, kind of perfect for reminiscing. I also love the backstory to this, and Robert Smith is known for kind of confusing the press on purpose. He likes to play games by saying that this song is about this, and then like a week later say, well, it's actually this. You know, he's kind of famous for doing that, which I really appreciate, to get a kick out of it. But I think one story he said was that it was based on, and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, maybe, but a real-life event where his house burned down, and the only things remaining were pictures of his wife-to-be, something like that, which I found very interesting. Yes, that's what I read as well. There's also a version that he says that he read an essay by Myra Polio called The Power of Ritual Photographs, and he then destroyed all his pictures and home videos, and then regretted it. So there you go, you've got two different versions already. Yep, and as people pointed out, Myra Polio is an anagram of Mary Paul, his wife's maiden name. So this is why the shit-talking just keeps going, it's really funny. I love this song, it's definitely one of my favourites. What do you guys think? So, yeah, this was a song that I discovered when I bought the Best Of in probably about 1996, and I had never heard it before in my entire life, and it's gorgeous. Sometimes I complain that bands need to edit back, but I could listen to this for an hour. And I think they headlined Glastonbury in 1990, and they've got a 10-minute version of that where they have even more melodic guitars that keep coming, keep interweaving. It's a beautiful piece of music. It's cinematic. I love the washes of synths I come across. Yeah, I love the wordplay. Yeah, I can listen to this for days, and I find it fascinating how this is played in the UK. It's really brilliant. Maybe because I think it might have been the third single from the album, so maybe by then people had it on the album already. It could be one of those sort of things. I think, like, Lullaby and Love Song came out before. Is there a radio edit as well? Because it is half a minute. Yeah, yeah, I can listen. Yeah, yeah, and the video's beautiful with them dancing in the snow. I think a tempo video. So yeah, I mean, I would be devastated if I saw The Cure and they didn't play this at some point. Yeah, I'm going to counteract all the nice stuff you just said. But I was convinced that this song was on the greatest hits, and I didn't like it. It wasn't on the greatest hits that I have, in any case. But this, to me, when it started, I was like, this could be a New Order song. So I'm like, who's ripping off who? Who's copying who? Because it's all, you know, it's all the same period. I would be inclined to think, date-wise, maybe it is a little bit more The Cure, because I was thinking, like, when was Blue Monday in relation to The Walk? And it was six months before. So I'm like, yes, when New Order or The Cure make this kind of sound, I am a fan, maybe because, as Fran said, it's the melodic guitars. I think you've got the dirge there, which I normally like, but there's too much melody, and I just prefer the dirge. I can absolutely agree, like, the washing over of the synths is nice, but it just doesn't grab me in the same way, exactly. And I don't really know why. Because when The Cure or New Order make a similar sound, but it's a little bit more, I don't know, angsty, grungy. I prefer it, but yeah, this is, it's a bit too romantic for my cold stone heart, I think. But the next, I don't think you can accuse the next song of being like that, so what's your final pick from The Cure? Oh, my final pick is, and Fran mentioned The Crow earlier, this is from The Crow soundtrack, it is Burn, and I chose this one last, because I think it closes out the playlist well, especially with this fade out at the end, but it's also just one of my favourite songs, and I also heard them play it live, and when they played it live I was just like, yes! Like, I was just so excited to hear it, because I know that they didn't always play it, it was a while before they started playing it again, but I love The Crow movie, and I love this song, so it's a perfect point in the movie too, it's when Brandon Lee becomes The Crow, when he's actually putting the outfit on, and the makeup on, it's just a perfect song for that scene, and as Fran mentioned earlier, the director asked Robert Smith if he could use The Hanging Garden, and Smith said, no, I'll just write a whole new song, well, thank God that he said that, because we got this. It's just an epic song, it's got this large kind of, I would say it's out of all these songs that I've listed, it might be the most well produced, it's just, it has this big sound, and it's kind of like perfect for a movie about a dark vigilante who's getting justice, you know, like, it's a really good song for that, it's kind of got a montage quality to it in the middle. I'd put this on if I'm kind of getting psyched up for something, you know, it's got a good kind of pump-up quality to it while being incredibly dark, and sort of melancholic to a degree as well, it's kind of got a lot of different things going for it, but yeah, every time I hear this song, I just see the scene from the film, and it's just a great scene. Where did this song place in the charts, this song? I would have been like 13, 14 when the film came out, and I have no recollection of this ever being played on MTV, because we mentioned, we did a YouTube one recently, and we mentioned Batman Forever with U2 being constantly on MTV, and The Crow was obviously everywhere because of what happened to Brandon, but I have no recollection of this ever being played, and I only discovered it when I bought that compilation and thought, where did this come from? Because I probably haven't seen the chorus since 1994, and I'm always a bit scared that it might be, it may not have dated well, but I've never watched it or any of the sequels, so yeah, I do like this, and it feels like an updated version of pornography, but with better production, and more I think it was, again, I think the band had just kind of like, for the cure to keep breaking up, other members, it's always Rob Smith, but other members come and go, and I think it happened again, leaving him with just Boris the Drummer, and that was it. And then he went into studio and created this cracking track, it's seductive, it's like a black sexy dream quality, with a cracking chorus, like, he means every single word, and yeah, I think they started to play it live in 2016, because a lot of people were complaining constantly, and he finally gave in, so yeah, I was so happy when he played it in 2018. And listening to it again, I'm thinking it sounds a lot like the Splashin' Pumpkins as well, I wonder if Splashin' Pumpkins had taken some of this for their second half of the 90s sound, with that sort of guitar sound, but yeah, have you heard it before? I haven't, and I actually haven't seen the cry before, even though I'd heard of it, but I'm guessing you've seen it front. Yeah, but like I said, I saw it once, in about 1995, so I can't comment on that, unfortunately. So yeah, I was wondering, Ryan, what made you pick a song from a soundtrack as opposed to one of the many albums, and I did see that The Crow was called the first gothic superhero film, and I was like, aha, okay, now I get it, and yeah, I knew other songs from this album, so I'd saved After the Flesh from With a Thrill, Kill Cops, who I love, I absolutely love, A Daisy Chain for Satan, that's a song that I get very obsessed with, After the Flesh, a bit heavier. Oh yeah, I absolutely love this, I really enjoy the kind of frenetic beginning, you can't tell where it's going, I like that there's long instrumental stretches, the driving drums once again, kind of guiding the whole thing, and yeah, I do love it when you listen to a song and you can see the visuals, so now I'm really curious to, it is definitely a film I want to watch, I just haven't gotten around to it, but in our Psychedelic Fires episode, Richard Butler, he was in a band called Love's Bit Love, and he did, he covered How Soon Is Now for The Croft, which is also a cult 90s film that I've only seen now, and I was thinking like, if I, are these like the two most kind of alternative soundtrack films with an influence, because on the soundtrack there's also Pantera, Rage Against the Machine, Nine Inch Nails, Violet Thames, yeah, I heard about this soundtrack way before I heard about the film and stuff like that, so yeah, I'm now very curious to go and watch it, and would recommend The Croft as well if you haven't seen it. So Fran, are you a little underrated for Cure? Well, yeah, I have tried to listen to every single Cure album in the past, and as I said before, I've not come away wanting to own any Cure album, so therefore I think that they are a band who have really brilliant songs, so I was lucky in Hyde Park that I paid all of them, so as a whole canon of work, I would say maybe slightly overrated because I don't think that they are consistent, I think that when they're great, they're great, but there's a lot of filler unfortunately, and so for that reason, and also, he's done very little in the past 30 years. That's true, that is very true. He does a lot of great collaborations with churches and castles and so forth, but yeah, come on, the last 30 years, what have we been up to? So yeah, for that reason, I would say middle, middle, in between both. To be honest, I feel very similarly, because yeah, this playlist for me did represent myself about the Cure. There were three songs that I loved. I loved Open, I loved The Walk, I loved Burn, and then there was one that I was like, Hanging Gardens was good, and then Pictures of You, I was like, is this sound that I'm not so keen on? And when I went to look at the Spotify numbers, they have over 17 million monthly listeners, they're 384 in the world. I was not expecting them to be that high. I would have maybe said top 1,000 maybe, but top 500, top 400. But I do find it difficult to dismiss outright firstly because I think you've done a good job, Ryan, of showing the different sides of the Cure, and it is just like we're just inching the door in a little bit to hear them. So I would maybe say overrated, but I would rather stay in the middle, because I do think that they have a very original sound in parts, and when I really like their songs, I really like their songs. But yeah, it's interesting to see that, yeah, Fran, you also think it's an album problem rather than a sound. We just need to get into a gloomier mindset or a new, wavier mindset and listen to them at the right time. Maybe that's what's missing. Yeah, I think yeah, I guess Head on the Door and Wish will probably be the albums I would go with. But yeah, I don't know what it is. But, you know, it's hard to say about the overrated, really, because they created their own kind of genre, really. So many bands was like, you know, borrowed from the Cure. So, you know, they're so important, and they've got so many fantastic songs, I can never say they're overrated. I just think that they're a band that you very rarely meet and you hate, so I find them quite interesting. True, actually. Yeah, people love them or don't know them or are indifferent to them. Yeah, that's a good point. I've never heard anyone say, I can't stand the Cure. I've heard people say, I can't stand the Smiths or, you know, groups like that. I think that may be more because of moracy than anything. But yeah, I've never heard anyone say, I don't, I hate the Cure. Also, I agree, Fran, they haven't done anything in the last 30 years, really. So that's problematic. But I would say everything from 1980 to 1992 is pretty solid. Maybe one, like a couple albums that I'm kind of lukewarm about, like The Top and whatever. But I listen to everything from 17 Seconds to Wish pretty much consistently. Although Kiss Me, the Kiss Me album is a little long. I do like the Kiss Me from the Kiss Me album. I think that's really good. I have that saved. And it's wild to me that Why Can't I Be You is also on that album, because I knew that from The Greatest Hits. That sounds like two completely different sounds. But yeah, but maybe that's why. I should have included this on the list, the playlist, but you should listen to the song Torture from Kiss Me, Kiss Me. It's not one of their big hits, but it sounds like he's being tortured a little bit. Darker, darker. Good, good. I do like Men's Suffering, so I will finish by going to... I have just watched the Barbie film. I'll go and listen to that afterwards. Thank you, Ryan. And you can see that I've listened to the band live, and all sorts of other crazy tangents. And if at any point any of that made you want to listen to Pick A Disc, then you can find us on the podcast, Ask For A Choice, or on the Facebook and Twitter and Instagram under Pick A Disc. We're also on the We Made This Podcast network on wemadethisnetwork.com and on Twitter at we underscore made this. Goodbye. Welcome back to part two. We have just discussed The Cure, and we're now going to be discussing a band that I had never heard of. I'm not sure if bands knew them, but Ryan, can you introduce your underrated pick? Yeah, so my underrated pick is a band who for the longest time I didn't know how to say their name, but it's really simple. It's XMAL Deutschland. It is how it looks. Yeah, they were a gothic, dark wave group from Hamburg, only around for about ten years, and released four albums. And, you know, I was in Hamburg a couple months ago. Couldn't find their stuff. Went to a couple record stores. Wow, really? Yeah, didn't have anything by them. I can't find their stuff here very easily in the United States. I know they're compared a lot to Suzie and the Banshees, but I think that's a little unfair. I mean, yes, there's similarities, but you know, I think being from Germany and singing in German and also having, I would say even a more ethereal sound to them, I think they can separate themselves a little bit from the Banshees. But yeah, they were part of that early German post-punk scene. There were other groups that they were associated with. Maybe you guys can say this name correctly? Einstürzende Neubauten? Yes. Yes, there we go. Who are pretty well known for being in that scene as well, the industrial scene, more likened to that scene. But I just never felt that this band got the credit they deserved. They did make it on some UK indie charts, I believe, but nothing much more than that. And to this day, unless you're really, really into this genre, they go pretty much unnoticed. I think that, honestly, they didn't do a whole lot with their genre. I mean, they just played it really well. But I think that they don't get recognition, even amongst some people who are into goth music. You have to, I think, really be into it to really give them the credit they deserve. So I would just say that the lead singer, I believe her name is Anya, she had a really rich, croony vocal sound that I thought was really cool and really atmospheric. And she's, to me, one of the more standout vocalists of the gothic genre. So I think that's one of the reasons this band stands out for me. So, yeah, like I said, I had never heard this band in my life. I was surprised that they had support of some big bands in the UK, like The Stranglers, and I think they had maybe a top 40 single. I knew that in Germany, this goth is kind of bigger in Germany than in Europe. It might be a cliche, but we all think that, you know, you go to a Berlin sex club and they're playing goth music. Is it true? I've not been. You guys have been to Hamburg, so you know. I went to a conference in Hamburg, although I did go to the Hyperbahn. I had no XMAL Deutschland when I was there. It's hard to not mention them. There's more to them I will discuss when we go through the playlists. It's interesting to discover a goth band, and also when it first started, was it three ladies and one guy, initially? Yeah, I think it might have even been four ladies, and then one of the ladies got substituted by a guy, and then it was always them. Even rarer. And I've been watching some videos, there's not a lot on the internet, but I keep thinking that it's like an alternative version of Kim Wilde. Yeah? They're having a great look, but obviously in the UK I think when you're singing in a different language it hurts a little bit, which is, by album three, I noticed that they are singing in English on songs, but maybe it's just too late. Maybe, I don't know. So Babs, what are your thoughts? I had heard of them. I did know their biggest song, Inkubus Succubus, that you didn't put on, Ryan. I was glad for that, actually, because I'm like, yes, it's an opportunity for me to discover more of their songs. But literally, yeah, all I knew was they were German, and they had at least one woman in it. I think I probably discovered them from going down one of the many, many female, goth, punk bands, you know, female-fronted, that I often do to find out new acts for me that have women in them. And yeah, it was really interesting to read about their life. I had no idea about that she shared a flat with people from Einstürzende Neubauten and someone called Christiane F. Had you heard of Christiane F, either of you? Sounds very familiar. Very familiar. Basically, she was this kid who, aged 14, was a heroin addict and became a sex worker. And there was a film in it where David Bowie features quite prominently because... Zoo Station. Ah, okay, okay. And yeah, I was like, okay, because I read this interview with the notorious Christiane F, and I'm like, not notorious enough to me, so it's interesting to go down that David Bowie balloon in a 1980s rabbit hole. And yeah, I read that they, yeah, I read about the 4AD connection, I read that they opened for the Klopso twins and that actually it was Ivo Watts-Russell, who also produced Gardens by Klopso Twins, co-produced their first album, but they had quite a lot of clashes with him because she said that, like, he kept making us want to sound arty. We didn't want to sound arty. Which is quite funny. So yeah, by the second record it was someone else. But yeah, I think maybe one of the reasons why they weren't as big was, yeah, as Fran said, the singing in German. But also, I think there was some record label clashes. I think there seemed to be some kind of personal clashes as well because I read this whole interview with Anya, where she was saying how at one point the people who managed Susie and the Banshees wanted to manage them, but Susie and the Banshees were like, no, you can't. Okay. I think, yeah, right, you'd initially, because we talked about doing the Glock episode, doing the Cure, I think you'd put someone else forward. But when you said XMAL Deutschland, I was like, no, this is a perfect opportunity for me to find out more and Fran too, it seems. So, yeah. So what's your first pick? So my first pick is the song Orient, and it is off their first album, Fetish. And this is something that I think I wanted to also mention about why they're a little bit underrated. And I think this song shows it with the blending that they were able to do of an eastern sound that they did really well. They incorporated this kind of Arabic sort of sound to their music, and with Anya's vocals, it had this really just kind of dark, mysterious vibe to it that Orient being something that was mysterious at the time, the whole Western view of the Orient being this place of mystery and intrigue, I think this really captures that sound really well. Pretty consistent throughout the whole track. It's not really changing much as it goes along, but it's very danceable, which all their songs really are. And that's one of the things I love about goth bands, is like they can be very dark, very moody, but also you want to kind of get up and move to them, which is just strange, but compelling at the same time. And this is a good blending of all of that. I wonder if in Germany they weren't ready to know how to dance to goth music, because there's a live version of these in Germany, and the audience are like mannequins, and everyone's commenting, saying, are they going to actually move? And then in the middle there's one guy just povering up and down. That's beautiful! Like, we don't know what to do! This is exactly what I expected it to sound like, and I was like, is that good or bad? In my head, I thought, okay, this fits what I thought. It's got a good bass sound, it's got the goth-rock sensibilities, and it's got that middle-eastern synth sound, which you mentioned that seemed to be quite popular. Blemondes have a similar keyboard sound at one point in their life. I like that giddy-up percussion, like it's the horse going along, which, again, I think is a bit like budgie in Caesar the Badgees. I wonder if the vocals do split the audience. I guess at some points it's almost a yodel I don't know if that would put off some of the more poppier music fans, but yeah, this is a great start, but there are better tracks on the playlist for me. Yeah, I think I agree with you. Her voice is quite harsh, although I really do like the harmonies in the middle. I thought she was saying, rather than Orient, and I was like, oh, okay, it's not like a football chant in the middle. No, she's saying about Oreos. Yeah, of course, because they were back in Hamburg in the 80s, I'm sure. But yeah, I thought it was simple and nice. I like the spooky synth line that prevails throughout all of their songs, although there's different levels of spookiness for sure. This is mid-tier spooky, I would say. I really like the scuzzy guitars, and yeah, I wrote the same as you, Fran, like similar, those mid-tree drums. And yeah, I obviously went to Google Translate, the lyrics, very, very cheerful stuff. When they hang you, the sun is high, the sea is cold, the sun is hot, caravan takes your body, your skin is light, your father doesn't hear your screams, your mother doesn't see your eyes. Okay, ladies. Let's go see Barbie. Come on, Barbie. Come on, Anya, let's go. But yeah, I think maybe all three of us would agree on listening to gloomy music to make you feel better is one of the great choices in this world. I do really like a depressing lyric. I'm sad that it'd be just a little bit too old for emo when it was big, because I would have been all over that shit. But yeah, even if you speak German, I think you can barely understand what she's saying. And yeah, I really enjoyed Google Translating all the lyrics and seeing what they were about. What's your second pick, Ryan? So the second pick is probably my favourite song. It is Island, and love the atmosphere here. Anya's vocals on this one are my favourite of hers, the wailing. She's got this rich sound, especially on this track, this deep, dark sound that she's got. And I love the... I don't think it's a bass. I think it's like they're doing something on the keyboards where it's like... You know, it's got this foreboding sort of sound to it that you're like, okay, this is going somewhere darker. And then it kind of kicks into this really... I can just see people dancing to it. Goth groove, yeah. It's got this goth groove to it, which is really catchy. And I find it... Every time I hear it, I'm like, yeah, this is my favourite. This is probably my favourite of theirs. And it's on their second album, Toxin, which is... I think they're best known. Probably their most famous album that they ever produced. Have you discovered all four albums, Ryan, or have you only heard of them on Spotify? No, I've listened to the last two, although I don't really go back to those ones because A, they're harder to get a hold of, and also the last album they did was they were trying to almost go in a much more new wavy sound. They were kind of... I'm not going to say selling out, but they were kind of trying to make their sound a little more acceptable for people, and so it doesn't really do it for me because I like the first couple albums more than those last few. The third one was good, and it still kept some of that dark vibe to it, but you said earlier they were kind of trying to go in a more English route with the language, and I just find that Toxin especially is the one I usually go back to. Yeah, I enjoy the Bow Wow sounds. Who knows how to make it? There's actually a John Peel live session on YouTube I was listening to. They did four, I saw. He really liked them. He really shunned them. This is, I guess, more industrial. I guess this will be played in the Dead Disco, or I don't know, whatever you're going to name your goth disco. I like how the spiky guitar rises in the chorus. It's got that hypnotic feel. I feel like I was drifting into all of the revolving rhythms. It's got maybe like a Sisters of Mercy vibe more from The Cure, and yeah, I thoroughly enjoyed this. I'm surprised it wasn't too dirge, too furious for you. I much enjoyed the fact that it was dirgier and gloomier and the production sounded much slicker. I really like the organ on here. This is, we're on a higher tier of spookiness here, that's for sure. And I really like the section where all of that spookiness just leaves and it's just the drum and then the bass. Everything's taken away before it comes back. So yeah, I thought this was great. I also, it made me think of I haven't seen the Netflix show Wednesday, right? You know, speaking of famous goths. And I know that the cramp song, Goo Goo Muck, that went viral because there was this song where she was dancing to it. And then I went to look at the soundtrack and there were very, very few goth-related things. It seemed to be like classical music versions of like, I don't know, like Elton John and another, no, maybe not Elton John, but random Dua Lipa definitely was in there. I'm like, I did not expect Dua Lipa in a frippin' anabans. But what I was thinking of like yeah, have you seen it, Ryan? The Netflix show? Is it good? Because I can't figure out whether it's kind of is it for children? Is it worth it? Is it gothy enough? Would this fit into it? Because I'm like, this feels like a song that would fit right in that kind of TV show. So I liked Wednesday and I'm a sucker for the Addams Family. I love the Addams Family, especially the 90s movie. The two 90s movies, love them. But this was kind of like to me that Wednesday was more like Hot Topic goth. Where it was like not really goth. It was kind of like, you know, if My Chemical Romance is goth, then this is goth. But I don't see Ex Malle Deutschland fitting into the soundtrack because it's like Wednesday, while it's not necessarily for children, it's still a little bit too Hollywoodized, a little bit too Disney-ish maybe for Ex Malle Deutschland. I think The Cramps fit well with that scene especially. Unfortunately though, a lot of TikTokers took that song and they replaced it with a Lady Gaga song. And so people thought that Lady Gaga, yeah, like people were doing the, they took the scene and the move in the show and they put Lady Gaga over the dance scene. And so a lot of people thought Lady Gaga was actually doing it. And so I think she got more attention than The Cramps actually did, unfortunately. I was hoping for like a remember when Kate Bush blew up because of Stranger Things, I was kind of hoping The Cramps would blow up because of Wednesday, but unfortunately Lady Gaga kind of hijacked that. Interesting. I think that happens, right, doesn't it, more and more these days, where like people will pick like a meme video and then just put different songs over it. But I actually, I've seen The Cramps version go very viral. I hadn't seen the Lady Gaga one so yeah, maybe it depends on the audience. I think that there is a little bit of a goth, there's a lot of goth appreciation out here in the States but I think it's, I don't want to be like, I'm not going to do the gatekeeping stuff, right, like, but I do think there's a little bit of just cluelessness about what it is and I think that there are people who think that like Wednesday is super goth and that Stranger Things is goth and that Marilyn Manson is goth, you know, I think there's like this sort of misunderstanding that actually kind of has always been around with the goth movement and goths have always been the first people to tell you how much it pisses them off that people just don't understand their scene but it kind of continues and I think there's a lot of people now who I've seen these shirts that say OG goth on it and I'm just like, really? Like you have to wear that shirt to say, oh, I was one of the originals and I think that people who wear those shirts probably weren't one of the originals but yeah, there's this weird sort of like romanticization of the gothic movement and it's done by people who probably just don't have the first clue about what it is but I think Wednesday, as much as I did enjoy it, I think it's kind of tapped into that a little bit. Well, yeah, I mean like goth is also gothic novels from the 19th century or I think, yeah, 19th century that's what it's inspired by so that's why it is this weird like, yes, it is people wearing black clothes and black makeup but actually they might have that as a fashion and not really be into any of the music. It's an interesting one. But yes, let's head towards the moonlight with your next pick, Ryan. Yes, my third pick is my German is rusty but I believe it's pronounced Mondelicht. This is one of their bigger hits for sure and if they had any hits really. But this one, I would say, is much more of a dark wave sound and again, great crooning from Anja, awesome intro. They have a lot of great intros, kind of similar to The Cure that sets the mood and I've heard this one quite a bit at the goth clubs and it gets people to really sway and move. It gets the people to sway. It gets the people to sway like if anyone has seen South Park and knows the goths in South Park, that's pretty much what they're doing. They're just kind of dancing a little bit, like not really moving but again, brings a little bit of that eastern flair in here and yeah, this is, talks in is just full from start to finish of these kinds of songs like the one before and this one as well. Yeah, I noted when I heard this, I thought, okay, I'm starting to understand their sound and the next track both sounds in the same sort of vein. But yeah, I guess it's got more keys and more of an aggressive guitars to it. I especially like things like Sporty, the guitars and keyboards sort of changing a lot into an impressive middle section that is too short. I wanted it to go a lot longer. I really enjoyed that section the most. So it's a great sound. I did love it. I think I preferred the items more than this for me. Ab? Yeah, I don't really have much more to add apart from more organ, more happy is what I wrote. There also seem to be some strings in there, which is nice but yeah, I think the thing I love the most is yeah, again, we're at higher tier spooky, but then yeah, it goes into that section unexpectedly where the organ is not there and it's more, yeah, new wavy, I would say. And I was like, oh, I was enjoying that, but I also don't mind a bit of this either. So yeah, I think you know, maybe a criticism at this band, like the songs do sound very similar, but I mean, these are two albums two years apart, but I don't mind too much. But I do think you have to be in the mood to listen to this for sure. Like this isn't something you can just put on the radio. Depends on the radio station, but not commercial radio anyway. Definitely not. I would put it on my radio station, but I would not be making much money probably with it. Unless you found those famous goths with money. My fourth pick is Qual. Probably the most, well, the intro at least is quite, well, not new wavy. I don't know. Would you say it's new wavy? That beginning part? It's got more of a upbeat sound than the previous two for sure. It's kind of, I don't know how to really describe it, but I really love this, the backbeat of the song. I think it's more punk inspired, and I think Fetish was a lot more. Because it's their debut, it's going to be a little bit less refined. Usually that's the case for a lot of these bands is their debuts tend to be the most raw and the most I guess stripped down. I think that this song is a little less involved than Mon Licht or Island. But I really think it's another just, again, I'm going to repeat myself over and over again, but you can dance to this one too. You can dance to all and that's the one thing about XMAL Deutschland. I think more so than The Cure, because The Cure, some of their songs are very dancey, but XMAL Deutschland was just kind of tailor made for goth clubs. This kind of music is just perfect for the environment. I've not thought of this yet, but I feel like their debut is where the Susan and Banshee comparison happens a lot more than the other albums, with the drums and the vocal style. But I do love the scratchy laser gun intro. I wouldn't know what genre you'd call it. And in the middle it's going to be some sort of laser gun fight and the sound of thunder sort of like all happens at the same time. Again, it's a little bit obvious to me. It's kind of like goth of her before. We kind of mentioned the lyrics, happy go lucky. I'll translate them to you in a second. Don't worry. Something for popping the Valentine's Day card. Yeah, let me know the lyrics. Your torment is my lust. My love is your death. At night when you sleep, I'm alive. My day is your dawn. My love is your death. I'll murder you, which they say in English, which is quite interesting. Yeah, I thought like, oh, this is a very new sound. And I do agree. It's bouncy and you've got that bass sound. Really, really good. And so the vocals come in and then it's like, oh, okay, this is that classic XMAL sound. I really like the screams and the effects. I like the instrumental bit in the middle. Yeah, like, again, because the songs all have a similar sound, I did kind of like all the songs. I think it'd be a bit difficult for me to pick my favorite one, actually, because while I did enjoy the Dirge in Bloom of Ireland, for example, Mondlicht, I thought, was really special, too. So yeah. And we've got one more to go to see how he feels. So what's your final pick, Ryan? So I believe it's called Regen. I would say Heigen because Regen without the I is rain, but Heigen means to dance. So I think there's a bit of a pun going on. Oh, okay. Again, Ontoxin. And I think this one, all the songs, I mean, Ontoxin are very much in the same vein. Like this very sort of moody, atmospheric, gloomy sound, but with much more production than Fetish had. And this is no different. I think that with this ominous build at the beginning, it gets into this really catchy groove sound, the goth groove, as we're calling it now. That's what we're calling it, the goth groove. There is such a thing. That's what we call it in the club, guys. Goth groove. And the funny thing about the goth groove is you just know it when you hear it. Like you just, you're like, oh, that's it. That's the goth groove. And this one has a really, really memorable one. But I think for me, this is the perfect example of XMAL Deutschland gothic music and what it does, its ability to, as I've said before, blend darkness with a hook that is just undeniably catchy. And when people ask me, well, why do you like goth music? It's like, well, because of this. I mean, this just, I don't know, there's some, like, I know there's dancey music out there, there's catchy music out there, but it doesn't have the doom and gloom aspect that goes with it. And being a person who likes dark humor, who's very sarcastic, who's quite cynical at times, and who just loves darker things in life, enjoys them, enjoys learning about them, I need something that is catchy but still has that element to it. And I think a song like this is a perfect example of that. Yeah, I agree. I think this is my favorite song on the playlist. I've just had a check, and unfortunately there's a lot of playlists called goth groove. Oh, damn it. There's even one called Coffee Goth Groove. Which Andrew and Ryan can copy, right? Like, it's the only one. But yeah, I put down, and I think that will go further into this, this has a Stranglers influence with the keyboard sound. I put half Stranglers, half Kraftwerk. I enjoyed the southern stop-start break that it has, the yodeling vocal, I like the hushed middle bass section. I feel it could be shorter, I think it goes on a bit too long, it could make up back a little bit. On the live John Poole version, the guitar has an even weirder sound effect, which is interesting to hear. And yeah, the whole thing is like, ultra-worldly. I really enjoyed it. I've played this maybe six times so far. It's good going, I think, for me. Yeah, definitely. And I would probably dance with my partner in the rain, which I believe is what they're looking for. Yeah, they're drinking the drops straight from heaven. Let's all do it, whether it's raining or not. It does go into the goss groups, but I think, as you said, the beginning really sets the tone because you have that bass, which seems more prominent because I feel like the guitars do come in more quickly on other songs. And I really like, I've called it the urgent alarm synth at the beginning as well. I really like how often it feels like the song is going to lose control but then it brings it back in because it goes and you think, oh, okay, now we're going, oh no, we're going back in, oh, they're doing it again. I really like how it wrong-footed me. I think, as with anything remotely gothy and spooky, I always think of one of my favourite bands that we've discussed, the 80s Matchbox Beeline Disaster, which, Ryan, I think, if you haven't heard of them, I would really recommend because they're somewhere in between, I don't know, goth, psychobilly and garage rock. What was the name of the band? They're called the 80s Matchbox Beeline Disaster. Okay, I'm writing that down. Yeah, I will also add because I forgot to mention it, so I really like, Ryan, that you mentioned the fact that with the goth club, what's great is the fact that it's all ages. I have been, I think I mentioned this before, there's an organisation called Club New Wave here in Belgium and they have these dark wave evenings and I've been to them and it's exactly the same thing. It's so cool because you have very old goth, normally young LGBT plus people. When I went, there was a guy dressed as Marie Antoinette. Why not? I think it was around Halloween, so some people were dressed up, but it was just really impressive to see a guy with a dress and a wig and the little kisses drawn on his cheek. With cake? Was he eating cake? He wasn't eating cake, he was just, he maybe had a fan as well with him while they played early Simple Minds and all this kind of stuff. I feel like that maybe would be the only place, at least in Brussels that I would hear. I have probably heard some of this music there because they also have a mainstream room where it's like, oh, this is Simple Minds, this is early Human League and then you have the room where you go into and you're like, I have absolutely zero clue what this is. But yeah, I think it's so nice to have a space that's so welcoming for so many different groups of people and I think it's always nice to go out and see all ages, to be honest. I think it's more fun. I'd love to be able to go to anywhere in the UK to dance to Simple Minds, but it's not going to happen to me unless I'm going back to 1982. You've got yourself to come over for a club new wave. I thought you might mention Hugh Cornwall. Yes, of course. Thank you. Yes, thank you very much, Brad. Obviously, as we mentioned, you only picked songs from these two albums because they're the ones that were on Spotify, but when I was reading the interview with Anya, I think postpunk.com online or something like that, I saw that Hugh Cornwall from The Stranglers, who are one of my favourite bands, they're definitely goth, they're goth adjacent. Hugh Cornwall produced their song Matador and I went to listen to it and I was like, wow, this is such a different, I feel like this is somewhere in between Exile Deutschland and The Stranglers and I absolutely bloody loved it. I think I hadn't quite seen that yet, Brad, in this song. I just, I don't think I was making this, I was so like in the goth, pure goth, I didn't realise it and then when I heard that, I was like, oh wow, they could definitely use some of that. I didn't realise that they'd supported them as well. That would have, what a gig to have seen. Yeah, on YouTube, there's a lot of people commenting that's how they discovered them, was like supporting The Stranglers in London like in 1984 I think, so. Imagine. So, yeah, Brad, over or underrated Exile Deutschland? I would say underrated because I've never fucking heard of them until this week and I liked all the songs really, there's not a bad song on that compilation and I even checked out some others. Yeah, the Incubus, is Incubus something 2? Incubus, Incubus 2. So, yeah, definitely, I mean they've got, what, 70,000? Is that, what's the run down for countries that? So, we have number one, Sao Paulo, okay, Brazil's into the goth, number two, LA, number three, Mexico City, number four, Berlin, number five, Santiago, so once again it is very often the rockier the rockier the act, the more South American the country. Yeah, no, there really is. I mean, Jenna Ortega, who played Wednesday, is of Latino origin, right, and I've read a lot of stuff about how, there was this TV show called Los Espookys, right, which I think has very cult fame in the US, which was kind of like, if I understand it, kind of goth Latinos and I've read all these things about how there is that element to a lot of South American culture as well, like we might associate it with Dia de los Muertos and like mariachi music and stuff like that, but actually, yeah, rock is also big there too. Yes, it is. But yeah, of course, underrated from me as well, I only knew one song by them, I don't know why I haven't really gone to explore further, I think because I enjoyed Incubus Octobus, but I'm very glad I did, and yeah, I'm really curious now to go to see what that matador sound is like, is that from Viva, right, from the third album, yeah. I believe it is, yeah. Because it was different but I enjoyed that too, and yeah, it's just such a shame that it really does seem to have been like, oh, you sing in German, you're not going to make it, and it's like, well, I think 70,000 monthly listeners for a band that really are singing in German, as you said, Ryan, like even within the goth community, they're not so well known, that is decent, and imagine with just a bit of faith and a bit of better marketing, they would have got bigger, I mean, they had four sessions with John Peel, that's quite a bit, and to my mind didn't speak German, and that didn't really seem to matter, and I do wonder if in the world of today, where people are just so much more willing, let's say, English speakers are much more willing to listen to songs in other languages, whether that just wouldn't be as much of an issue anymore. I think they'd be, I think if they were starting out now, they'd be pretty big, especially in the US, because Multidoma has been selling out shows. Really? Yeah, in fact, they played San Francisco in May, and they played the venue, the Warfield, which bands like Motorhead played, and some pretty big name bands could fill up, and so Multidoma had to play two shows there over a weekend, because they were selling out. So I think if bands like that can do it, and groups like She Passed Away, which is a pretty popular rock group from Turkey, they play here, and they do well, and of course Strap Majesty does really well. I love Strap Majesty. Yeah, I think they could do well. I think they really could, and being female-fronted and having that presence as well, I think would do them well. Mind you, let's mention this. Their Spotify bio is one of the most sexist dismissive things I've ever read in my fighting life. It made me so angry. It's so dismissive. It's like, sounding like witches, after selling out, they inevitably broke up, constantly comparing them to Susie and the Bats. It's like, really, really. So what's his name? Michael Sutton from Rovi. I'm calling you out. It's such nonsense. I really hope someone rewrites it. And I was just like, oh my god, we are in 2023, and still bands with more women in them than men still getting singled out and seen in a not-so-positive way. That really pissed me off. But yeah, they've got such a great sound. And yeah, I forgot to mention, Fran, you were talking about her look. I read in an interview that she used to have really, really long hair, and before she went into the band, she cut off her hair because she was going to be a hair model, apparently. She's a very striking, attractive woman, obviously. I went on her website, she's now an artist. She does some very interesting colourful pieces, so I recommend checking out Anne Jehovah's website. I've asked everyone. You know, this is a verity, and Susie and Banshee, they're both touring this year. So there's something definitely in the goth waters of a revival. A potion is brewing. So maybe we can send an email over to Germany and say, hey guys, come on. One last time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think Stranglers are still touring as well, right? The guitarist, what was his name? Manuel? Something. I forget his name. Apologies. But he passed away not too long ago. But, yeah, unfortunately he would no longer be able to join them. But, you know, if Anya's fronting the band, then they could really... I mean, she is the sound of the band. Well, this is the thing, actually, again, something else I forgot to mention. I read that I think there was some pressure on her to go solo in the same way they were saying how they were pressurising Bjork to go solo when she was in the Sugar Cubes. But Anya was like, no, this is my band. There is no band without them. And again, I think this is just like, you know, bad interpersonal relationships that record labels really screwed them here, which is a shame. So, Anya, come back. Please, come back. Come back, Anya. Also, going back to Fran just talking about there's something going on with the goth water or whatever, I saw the Sisters of Mercy this year. Oh, and? And one of the worst concerts I've ever been to. Oh, no. You know, and I had heard stories like I had heard that Andrew Eldridge just doesn't sound good anymore and whatever. And I was like, well, yeah, but this corrosion, I got to hear it live just to hear it. And yeah, he's super awkward on stage. He's not very engaging with the audience. He's doing weird karate moves. It's almost like he's doing weird movements like Elvis in his Vegas days or something. He's acting really weird. And then sometimes the lighting was weird. They didn't really show him that well. And sometimes the lighting was only showing his lower half. And I'm just like, okay. And the people he has in the band now, it's almost like he's trying to be an 80s rock band, like a glam rock band or something. Because the way they were playing the guitars and everything, I was like, are we watching Poison or something? Because they were just shredding and doing all this stuff, standing up the front of the crowd and almost like guitar hero level stunts. And it's just kind of, it was a little ridiculous. His audio sounded really bad. And I don't know, very disappointing show. Okay. Well, maybe Garth Waters, maybe that's the name of our club, by the way. Maybe they need to adjust the potion and add a few more toed eyes or something and remove the mouse feet or something like that. The potion is incorrect, guys. Get the witches on it. Yeah, get those witches on it. Get those powering witches. But yeah, great. How lovely to be in agreement. We've had some very harmonious podcasts recently. We're starting to get to know each other better. But yeah, as ever, Ryan, we will mention this in the intro, but you are our first returning guest and you have guested on our podcast before talking about Grunge, we talked about Pearl Jam and L7. But you have your own podcast. So tell us more about that. Yes. So the Broken Record Player podcast, which has been going for three years now, which I find it hard to believe in three years. Thank you. 71 episodes. We just did our 71st episode on Stoner Metal. We've been changing it up a bit. So the point of the podcast was to focus on albums and kind of just talk about one album at a time. But then I kind of got a little bored with that. And so what we started doing was doing different things like, hey, what are our favorite albums of this decade or favorite albums of the year? Or let's explore a genre and talk about the best albums from that specific genre. And we did a poll on Instagram. People voted. There were four categories. Stoner Metal, Glam Metal, EDM, and I believe the other one was Groove Metal. And these were random. I plugged in a bunch of genres to a random wheel basically online and it chose four. So I just had people vote on them. And Stoner Metal won pretty handedly. So we explored that. It was a lot of fun. Got to listen to a lot of heavy stoner metal that Black Sabbath really inspired. And I don't smoke a ton of weed, but I have been known to dabble before. That's right. That's right. But yeah, we're still plugging along. I have a co-host now. My friend Oscar, he and I worked at a record store together and I was getting to the point where the podcast was just becoming a lot of work to do on my own. And so I decided to and I was trying to do like three episodes a month. There was a lot of just kind of it was a struggle to keep up with it and to do the social media aspect of it, which to be honest, I really hate the social media aspect of promoting. I was about to say, your Instagram is one of my favorite music podcast Instagrams because you just you really talk about the music and you talk about the music, the passion and when you do the countdown. So yeah, I would often do these like you said, of years or of genres. You'll put the album cover. I mean, I also do the Social Media for Arts podcast and I know like whenever you do a top ten of anything and you need to like find the image and find the music and think of the description. It might be a pain and I totally get that, but you know, it is good. So well done. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it can be very stressful just to keep up with everything and hitting the algorithms at the right time and, you know, being consistent with posting. It can be a little bit of a grind. But yeah, my friend Oscar, he stepped in and he's good to bounce ideas off of and, you know, we get into it a little bit because sometimes we have different opinions, which is great because I don't always like to be in sync. You know, it's kind of nice that for entertainment sake to have somebody who has some different opinions about, you know, what you're talking about. So it is fun to kind of go back and forth with him for sure. Great stuff. Well, I would say check out the new episodes, but I have guested, I think, three times on Ryan's podcast before. So I would recommend checking in on System for Down at Chemical Brothers and Peter Harvey, just, you know, just because. Well, thank you both for having me on. Thank you. No worries. Just to kind of say goodbye, Fran, anything to add before we finish? For further listening, this week we had a new album from Blur. We had a new EP from Block Party and we had a new album from the Mull Historical Society that I can highly recommend. Oh, OK. See, I was listening to Texas and Wu-Tang Clan back in the 90s, which I had completely forgotten about. I would recommend checking out the 1998 Brit Awards with Method Man singing with Seanan Spiteri. It should not work. It does work. Then find me at Gardner and ask about their friendship. It's great. I love those kind of unusual collaborations. So I would say that. And, of course, support live music. Ryan, thank you so much for coming today. See you next time. Thanks again. Thank you. Bye-bye.