IOF with Paul H AMADEUS 5.30

The transcription is about a discussion between two individuals, where they talk about the film "Amadeus" and its impact on them. They discuss the characters of Salieri and Mozart, and how they represent different aspects of human nature. They also touch on themes of arrogance, virtue, and the human condition. The conversation delves into the depth of the story and the moral decline of Salieri as his hatred for Mozart grows. They also mention some explicit scenes in the movie and caution sensitive viewers. Overall, they appreciate the film's portrayal of complex characters and the exploration of deeper themes. Welcome to The Interpretation of Films. Today I'm here with my special guest, Mr. Fantastic Pete. Yep, happy to be here. Great, thank you. Thanks for coming. So, is there a film that really resonates with you, or a favorite film of yours, or do you have anything else on your mind that you would like to share with our listeners today? I was thinking about talking about the movie Amadeus. That's always had an impact on me, and the more times I see it, the more there is to see. I love that, because Amadeus is one of my all-time favorite films. I believe it came out in 1985, and it really inspired me to appreciate Mozart even more. I bought the soundtrack and listened to it so many times, and I probably have the whole movie memorized. How about you? Yeah, it's also inspired some inside jokes between me and a bunch of my friends, like when the emperor has the woman fainting in front of him, and he goes, well, there it is. Now, every time anything innocuous happens, I'll just look at my friends and go, well, there it is. Yeah, absolutely. Is there a favorite part? Probably near the climax of the film, when you have Salieri working with Mozart and transcribing all the notes for him, and the look of this kind of aloofness that he had throughout the movie, this kind of jealousy that he had against Mozart, this desire to tear him down, just disappeared in the face of this brilliant genius that he was now being involved in. Yeah, the change in his character at that moment was probably the most impactful, where you can kind of feel his excitement. You felt this sense of awe with him, as Mozart, who's dying, not himself, not at his top form, he's still just pouring out this brilliance that Salieri's finally participating in, and he has to let all his prejudices wash away as he encounters that beauty. Yeah, I think he was actually dictating to him Mozart's Requiem, and so for our listeners who don't know about Mozart's Requiem, it was common at the time for composers to write Requiem masses and all kinds of masses. And so there was a pretty standard text with the Kyrie, and the Gloria, oh there's no Gloria in that one, but the Agnus Dei and the Sanctus were the main parts of it. But there's also, do they call it, do you remember if they call it the Introit, where there's like a long sequence about Rex Tremende, about the Kings of Majesty coming at the last day? Well I haven't, I don't think I've listened to the Requiem all the way through. Like usually, the part of the Requiem that they really show is really the Lacrimosa at the end, and that's kind of what was highlighted in the film, and so that's usually what comes to my mind whenever I think of Mozart's Requiem. But yeah, that would be standard, having that Introit. Yeah, so basically he wrote his own funeral mass without knowing he was doing that. Yeah, and for context, yeah, Salieri, the whole movie is about Salieri working as a court composer and court musician favored by the emperor. He's a contemporary of Mozart's and he always had great admiration for this rising composer, and then once he encounters him, he sees him as just this miscreant, this scoundrel and playboy who should not be granted this gift of music. Which he thought that he had some kind of access to, he's like, I can become that, but then when he saw that with no practice, with no real natural disposition towards virtue or beauty or any of these things that he saw as the things that are necessary to be a great artist, he developed this hatred for this clown who just has these gifts without knowing how to really appreciate them, and so he starts to hate God, hate his neighbors, and basically have this jealousy that unfolds and unfolds and unfolds, and it ends with him basically commissioning Mozart, who's desperate for money, to write his own requiem mass, and that was going to be his final vengeance. If he can't have the gifts Mozart has, if God doesn't give him these gifts, then he's going to spike God's creation who unworthily possesses these gifts. Yeah, I mean, the screenplay, the story is just one of the best. I mean, it is absolutely incredible and profound, but even if you don't pick up on that, like, you know, I was so young when I first saw that movie, and I didn't recognize the depth of the story, you know, until I was older. You know, exactly what you described, and, you know, it's one of those movies that you just appreciate more and more as you mature and get older, and I think it's, there's an element there about the human condition, like, maybe there's a little bit of soliary in all of us or most of us. What do you think? Yeah, I think it's kind of similar to a lot of great novels, like The Brothers K. The Brothers K closes with the kind of meta statement that we're all Karamazov, all of us are Karamazov, and there are these people that, you know, you admire one of them, but the rest of them, you're like, these are buffoons, these are scoundrels, what is this? But no, no, if you pay attention, yeah, there is something of the scatter-mindedness and yet razor-focus of Dimitri, and the logic and callousness of Ivan, and that pure innocence of Alyosha. Like, there's something of all these characters in all of us, and I think that's, there's something to empathize with, with all of these characters, where you can kind of see their train of thought and relate to it in some way. And I think great works of film and just storytelling in general has these compelling characters that are compelling because there is this relatedness that we have to them, where they represent aspects of, you know, stupid decisions that we made when we were adolescents or even like trains of thought that we went on when we were adults. So yeah, I think that the buffoonery and clownishness of Mozart while still being, you know, really good at what he does, yeah, all of us like to, every now and then, go out and have fun and, you know, not worry about our responsibilities or the things we're good at and so on. And there's periods of time where, yeah, you'll get into that kind of mindset and still kind of begrudgingly do your duties or flaunt your talents and be arrogant. Like, there's some of that in all of us. And I think that, yeah, Mozart and Salieri present these two dichotomies of this, like, it's two forms of arrogance to a certain degree, I think. Where Mozart is self-involved in a way in which he's great at something, he knows he's great and he flaunts it and he can do whatever he wills and he doesn't really have to care about it that much. Salieri, I think, is like this element of scrupulosity. So Mozart, you have shamelessness. Salieri, you have this scrupulous, pompous, like, parasitical piety where he's just, he's perfect. He is, he's done all the right things, so he is better than everyone else because he's done everything that he's supposed to do. So of course he should get the gifts that Mozart has from God. He's been the greatest servant of God. Absolutely. And I think these are traps in our real lives when we fall into things like scrupulosity and this kind of rigidity, this need to moralize everything. So, you know, in the Catholic faith, I think there's a trend of, like, making all things, reducing everything to moral terms. And so it becomes Pelagian where you just do the right things and you're perfect, unlike those peasants who do all the worldly things. Yeah, and then I think the other side of that coin is this shamelessness, this complete lack of shame and this flaunting of talent without any regard for rising higher. Yeah, Mozart had this innate sense of higher things and of beauty, but he didn't think about it. He didn't consciously, intentionally, like, try to become a holy or virtuous person, and that was what was despicable to Salieri. There's something just about that, about that aversion from Salieri. But at the same time, yeah, if you're just trying and trying and you don't get there and you fall into this despair that opens you up to the most brash arrogance, that's arguably way, way worse for your soul and for who you are. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. And, you know, I've seen an uncut version. I don't recommend it for more, how should I say, sensitive viewers. There's some scenes in there that are, you know, you wouldn't want the kids to see, let me just put it that way. And it does show that Salieri ends up becoming more, his moral decline, you know, increases as his hatred for Mozart does. Yeah, and it's interesting because as he decides that he's going to throw morality aside and throw his virtue aside and just do everything he can to take down Mozart, he, in a way, he's like going, well, I'm going to be a shameless beast too, but he's so calculated about it. So that kind of very intentional kind of pharisaical virtue doesn't really go away because I think that that kind of virtue that he had was evil to a certain degree to begin with because it all came from a place of arrogance and trying to attain the divine by his own will and might. And there's something that never sat easy with me about that. Like, it's never really virtue. It's just, sure, it's doing good things, but the place from which those good things came was already rotten. It was already spoiled. So, yeah, hold on, I was responding to something you said. What was your question? Oh, I don't remember. Maybe we'll edit that part out. Who knows? I mean, I think it was that Salieri, the more he hated Mozart, the more he was declining morally. Because I think in the beginning of the movie, he offered up his chastity, so to speak. I think what he meant was he decided to live a celibate life for the gift of his musical talent. Yeah, and yeah, that's where I was going with it, where something that was spoiled and rotten to begin with, all he did, he didn't become the shameless, brash Mozart, which to a certain degree, I don't know if Mozart's culpable for a lot of the clownery of his. It's just completely unintentional and directionless. With Salieri, it's very directed, very calculated, and very malicious. So, all he does is redirect something that was already kind of vicious to begin with and let it be fully vicious. That just makes all of his actions feel slimy and wicked and evil. It just feels evil. Yeah, and so, with Mozart's flaws, he did seem to have authentic love for his wife and his family. In real life, I think he had like six kids or something, and some of them died, and it was absolutely devastating for him. But in the movie, I thought it was interesting that Salieri was in love with that opera singer, do you remember? And Mozart was apparently flirting with her, and she fell in love with him. Maybe that was the straw that broke the camel's back. He was in love with this woman, and Mozart seduced her in his own way, I guess. Well, it was also, yeah, the straw that broke the camel's back was that Mozart spoiled her virtue, because that was heavily implied. And Salieri, yeah, he lusted after that opera singer, and that was pretty clear. Yeah, yeah. And he was mad that Mozart had what he would never have to begin with. He offered up his chastity. He would never be able to behave in that way. He wouldn't permit himself to. But he wants it, and he hates the person that gets it without him. It's a dog in the manger. Yeah, fascinating. And, you know, the word Amadeus means love of God, and I think what the story is really about is Salieri's relationship with God, and I think he felt that God was mocking him, as if God didn't love him, but God loved Mozart, Amadeus, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. Yeah, and Mozart is so unworthy that that's the most despicable thing, and it causes him to hate God. Yeah, even though, yeah, you can't decide what talents you get or what talents another person gets, and you can't dictate another person's love for another. So, yeah, you can't dictate to God, no, you need to love me more. He treats his relationship with God in a very, very transactional way, where he is the way that Mozart loves anyone. We don't really get a sense of his relationship with God, but his relationship with everyone, which to a certain degree is a relationship with God, because you relate to God through other people. The way he loves everybody is very unconditional, his family members and the people he interacts with. He has this, like, brashness and arrogance about him, but, yeah, whenever you see tenderness or moments of love, it's very unconditional, even though, obviously, his inability to control himself raises a bunch of other problems in his intimate relationships. Yeah, like, you see that his wife is neglected, and her mother has her go to the spa to recover, and stuff like that. But his wife, at least in the movie, she loves him. I mean, the love she has for her husband, and she just, even when she was at the spa, like, she really wanted to come home and just take care of her husband. You know, which I thought was, you know, that was really an important aspect of Mozart's life in his person, because he, despite all of his flaws, and like what you said, his lack of control of himself, he still had, you know, love in his marriage. Which Salieri had, like, no love anywhere. Like, because he has this technical appreciation. Even when he's, like, awed by Mozart's work, it's because of the mastery of the craft. It seems less about, yeah, a real encounter or love of beauty. But, yeah, that one I'm not completely sure about. But I do think that Salieri is so closed off that his directedness of love is, it always falls short. It's only when he's captured without intention by a beautiful thing that he seems to have some sort of experience of love. And I think you only really see that at the end when he's writing the Lacrimosa, where he falls in love with the man and his talent. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, at that point it was like a love-hate relationship. Yeah, really, really, really incredible. One of my favorite parts of the movie is also near the end with the magic flute, the Papageno song. Are you familiar with that opera much? I'm fairly familiar. Like, I've listened to it, and I tried watching the opera at one point, but I'm never able to get a seat in the opera when it's playing. But, yeah, I tried to watch a performance of it on YouTube. I only ever got so far, though. So, the thing about Papageno, the storyline, so I think I just want to clarify this a little bit, that there's the person who writes the libretto or the lyric in the story, and then you have the composer who puts it to music. So, it sounds like it's a collaborative effort. So, I'm not sure how much Mozart, you know, I mean, in the movie it's implied that he does have a story in his head that he writes the music to. In any case, the Papageno scene is so charming, because Papageno's a bird, and he's looking for his Papagena. And, actually, that story in and of itself is quite profound, because he's looking for someone who's like, like him. Like, he wants his wife. And then, in that same scene, they're talking about them getting married and having little Papagenas and Papagenos, and that's the whole song. It just goes on and on and on with Papageno, Papagena. So, when you see the opera, it's just so beautiful, because it's about marriage and family, and it just warms your heart, because it reminds you of, like, this is what life is all about. Yeah, and that's one thing that's beautiful about the movie, is that it really immerses you in the opera world, kind of gives you a taste of, like, the history of opera, and just makes you want to go to the opera. Yeah, because it's one of those movies that, a part of it is having these operas playing throughout the movie, but it captures you, it grips your attention, and kind of arrests you, which, that's different from a lot of movies we have today, where, you know, you'll be on your phone, or you'll be talking to people, and that's fine, and everyone has the ability to do that. But there's some movies where it just arrests your attention, and you can't, you know, you can't draw yourself away from it. It's when it captures you and demands your attention that, yeah, you've got to be able to say, whoa, this is a great film. And a part of the way that this movie does it, of course, it's a great story to begin with, but a part of it is just having these great operas playing throughout the movie, and seeing the process, and actually becoming fascinated by something like opera, which, you know, a normal observer who isn't, doesn't go to the opera, doesn't listen to this kind of music or anything like that, normally they would just be like, what would I want to do with something like that? That would be boring, and I think it's very possible to portray these things in a boring way, or in a very dry, or, you know, elevated, artsy way in which it's only really accessible to opera goers, or, you know, people that appreciate these things, that are high society, or what have you. But this movie, no, it just arrests you because it's that good, and it doesn't have any airs or pretensions about it. It, oddly, through Mozart, it speaks as much to, like, I don't know, what they would call, like, banal tasting people, and people with the elevated taste. Like, it has something to say to everyone, and it arrests, it grips your attention, it takes you in its grasp, and doesn't let you go until you're finished. And, you know, it would be like an overture, what you would call it, for, like, the beginning of an opera. And it is just, it's almost like just an introduction to classical music or opera. And I think that time in the 1980s, you know, pop rock was, like, at the height, you know, in history, maybe, I don't know, maybe that's just me. But the fact that they were able to create this movie to get people interested in classical music and opera is really incredible. So, you know, if that was the intention of the movie, they did an amazing job. So, are there any other elements that resonate with you? Yeah, I think one significant thing about it is it's kind of, to a certain degree, a story about the nature of music. Because you have, again, this Mozart character who's very open. And that's one part of classical music that I think is really important, is it's kind of the all-expansive art, where it requires as much participation by the listener to be fruitful or exciting or, you know, beneficial as it does from the artist or from the music itself. But you're able to engage with it in an infinite number of ways. Whatever you take with you in your imagination, you can take from the music. And the music can inform whatever you want through your ear, but it penetrates your soul. But, like Mozart, it's very open, very kind of misdirected. You're the director of your artistic experience here. And it really can go any way you want it. But then you have this other side where, yes, there's this technical kind of, yeah, hardness and mastery that's very straight and narrow, very technically detailed. And that's another way. And so I think, to a certain degree, the movie's commenting on the different ways of engaging with classical music. Because you can just come into it with this kind of pompous sense of, ooh, yes, that was really excellent, the way that that octave went with this triad or whatever. But, like, sure, that's something you can do. But is it really as beneficial as just immersing yourself and engaging with it, even with no technical knowledge? You should be able to do that. But I think that the kind of, yeah, putting all that technical mastery and, oh, the tradition is so above anything we have now, and just turning it into this kind of idol, I think that stopped it from being what it is, which is the most kind of infinitesimal, expansive art. And it's there for everyone to enjoy. And everyone can appreciate it. You can know nothing about music and still love a Beethoven piece. But, yeah, I think that we've been in this kind of technical way of learning music, too. I think we've been kind of brainwashed into not being able to really engage with music. We need to be able to listen to it and go, yeah, just envision a brook flowing down a hill or something like that and give people imagery to work with and then use that to elevate their practicing of the music, their listening to it. And even in practicing the music, yes, there's a lot of technical things you need to know. But just give them pieces to work with and kind of let them figure out how to play it by immersion rather than by learning the, basically learning the grammar first and then learning how to play the music. Well, you're going to be thinking about the grammar the whole time. If you're just immersed and go, yeah, this is what this piece sounds like, you want to play that, here it is. Oh, yeah, it looks really intimidating, but just give it a shot. And giving people that freedom to fail, yeah, I think that kind of elevates the experience and produces better musicians, musicians that aren't afraid to fail and are able to engage with the work even when they're playing it and put their own spin on it here and there. Yeah, make it a bit more folksy and a little less closed off, inaccessible, and only for the high and mighty who understand every technical aspect of music. Yeah, those are really good points. I think there was that kind of an attitude, especially back then in the 80s, if I recall correctly, that it was more of an elite, sophisticated thing or social thing to do is to go to the opera. But, you know, like Amadeus, I think it was like, what's the word I'm looking for? It was more palatable. It was easier for, you know, a quote unquote, way person of music or someone who didn't know anything about music to get introduced into it. And you don't have to have a sophisticated ear to enjoy it. So I think that's great. Well, I think we can wrap it up here. Any final thoughts? Listen to classical music, I guess. Well, this was a lot of fun. I think this really even helps me to appreciate the movie even more. And it gives us things to think about in a deeper way. And I hope our listeners enjoyed it. And I hope you all have a beautiful day. Thank you.