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The conversation discusses the Fyre movement, which stands for Financial Independents Retire Early. It advocates for saving money and living below one's means in order to retire early. However, the conversation also highlights the dangers of falling for scams and false promises, such as guaranteed returns in investments or unrealistic health and fitness goals promoted on social media. The speakers emphasize the importance of seeking unbiased advice and being cautious when everyone is promoting a certain trend or investment. They also discuss the challenges of regulating online information and the need for credibility indicators for experts in different fields. Have you heard of the Fyre movement? Not Fyre Festival? I was going to say, he's making a comeback, isn't he? This is how gullible people are, though. I know. But that guy is literally out of prison, he's written a manifesto in prison, and he's now doing Fyre Festival 2, and he's selling tickets, again, selling tickets. I'm excited for the Netflix documentary. I'm excited, too. Yeah, you've got tickets. People just got cognitive dissonance, and that's the problem. Yeah. And some people almost can't be helped. Yeah, that's a good phrase. I think some people can't be helped, unfortunately. So there's a movement called Fyre, which is financial independents retire early. I don't know if you've heard of it. I've come across this, yeah. Yeah, and... Eat less avocados and save... Kind of, yeah. Don't drink your coffee. I came across it a while ago. I mean, the concept is great. It's like, basically, stop the trend of people working to 65, they're retiring. It's like, if you can almost scrimp and save for the, like, 10 to 15 years, and literally have, like, it sounds like a really boring life, like, never go out, save everything, live so far below your means that you're, like, eating rice every single day. But by the time you're 35, you're going to have saved enough money in your retirement account or whatever to then essentially live off of that for however long. It's an interesting movement. And I think it was really popular at one point. I think it's kind of on the down. People are like, oh, it's actually really hard. What I'm seeing now on my social media is people who are trying to get off the grid. And they believe in everything they've been taught so far from the mainstream media and, you know, mainstream education has failed them. And all they want to do is go and be farmers on a piece of... on a ranch in Texas, drinking raw milk. And, like, the liver king, good example right now, the liver king, who was literally eating raw liver. Now, I don't know what the benefits of this are, but I looked at a photo of the dude and he was jacked out of his eyeballs. I'm guessing you've both seen him. And even Joe Rogan, I remember, was asked on a podcast about him, is he natural or whatever? And he was like, well, of course he's fucking not. And, like, you could see that people are buying into this. People are buying his supplements. People are following him. I don't know if I should say this on the podcast, but I've got a friend who was engaging with somebody on Twitter. Name him. He was engaging with one of these people on Twitter the other day being like, oh, you know, you fast for, like, eight days a week or whatever. I'm like, mate, like, stop believing this bullshit because you can see this guy is taking some form of performance-enhancing drugs and this is unobtainable for the normal person. He is not getting there through just fasting all the time and, like, eating just one day a week or whatever this guy was doing. And, unfortunately, people are being sucked in by these very difficult-to-achieve objectives or bodies or whatever it will be or financial gains. But they're seeing it and they think that it's real simply because somebody on social media has it or is doing it or allegedly doing it. I think there's loads of really good points to unpack there. Number one, there's the kind of confirmation bias that if you start to believe something and then you see somebody who says that they're doing that thing, you go, absolutely great, that has just confirmed what I believed. What you don't see is the other 99 people out of 100 that that's not working for because they're not posting about it. It's fucking up for them. But, yeah, there's also that real issue of just pure lies, really. You know, again, Liver King is a great example. Someone is clearly on performance-enhancing drugs but saying he's doing it through other means. And it just, to me, just shouldn't be legal. And in our industry, the finance world, that is illegal. But there are unregulated industries out there where, and crypto being one of them, healthcare should be very regulated but there are people on there who are selling something or doing something or trying to say that traditional education has let them down and you should be doing it the other way. Essentially, we've been lied to that the majority of the world is now obese or whatever and we should be doing the opposite. Like I said, the guy is eating raw liver literally with his hands. So my dad called me the other day and I was like, all right, Dad, how are you doing? He's like, yeah, I'm good, I've got a question for you. I was like, yeah, go on. And he's like, I had an email from a guy saying you could make me 400% return using this algorithm and it was basically guaranteed. So I've got a callback in the next hour and I was like, right. And he's basically saying that, yeah, it seems like a really good deal. What do you reckon? I want to run it by you first before I've got the callback. And I was like, it's such a shame that people can get sucked into this stuff. And my dad just being an example, he's an older man who isn't the best on the internet. And do you know what? It's not just young people who kind of get sucked, who are impressionable. It is older people as well who don't fully understand and will get done by like these kind of scams almost where they are proper scams. I'm not saying like algo trading doesn't work. I'm just saying you can't ever guarantee a certain return. Like it's just not a thing. So if you ever do see someone saying guaranteed returns, like that's almost impossible, right? Unless it's a, I mean, a government bond or something like that where it's like almost guaranteed because it's backed up by the government. But like still it's... I just kind of said to him, please just say you're not interested. If it sounds too good to be true. Yeah, it probably is. And do you know what? Sometimes you do just need to step back. Because I was like, dad, I was so stupid. I was like, why are you doing this? But then I kind of had the same thing and it seemed too good to be true really. Like if people, it's so volatile where you're making 20, 30% a day. It's like, that's not a normal return. And it's likely there's some kind of bubble coming where it could just all go completely the wrong way. So my brother phoned me up in lockdown and he was like, I've been speaking to these people at work. He works in the construction industry. He's like, I've been speaking to these people at work. They're all telling me to buy Bitcoin. And it was like, I don't know, was it 60,000 or something? And I'm like, mate, just don't do it. Just don't do it. And he's like, no. But they were saying that you don't know what you're talking about. And then sure enough, about six months later the price is down to say $15,000. And I think sometimes you have to just, like you say, Scott, just remove yourself from it. Take a bird's eye view and say, does this look like something that's sustainable? Does it look like a bubble? Does it look like someone's like, it's all hype. And oftentimes, when everyone's speaking about it, it is. And there's the old, we have a quote in the industry, which is, I think it was JP Morgan or something back in the day, when his shoeshine guy was giving him stock tips. This was right before the Great Depression. And he went back to the office and sold everything. And then this big crash came. And it's almost like a philosophy to live your life by, which is if everyone's telling you to do it, kind of have a little bit of caution and try and be a bit of a contrarian and question it in those scenarios. And that only comes with experience and learning. I think you almost have to go through those because what our group chat of all our mates literally changed to Wall Street Bets, I think, or whatever it was called. No one in that group chat has, other than this specific point in time, was that interested in stuff like that. And all of a sudden, our actual group chat was changed to something finance-y. And probably at that point, we should have been like, that's a very good sign so maybe this could go the opposite way. I think again, we've called this podcast Seek Professional Help for a reason, and it's seek out advice which is unbiased. And it's so hard to find unbiased advice. If anyone's trying to sell you anything, what they're going to gain from the advice they're giving you, there should always be some kind of pinch of salt in there. But also I just think that still blows my mind, what you just said about TikTok, of how do we regulate these things online? There's the Instagram blue tick when someone gets a certain amount of likes and followers, but that's no credibility. I take it as credibility, but I almost feel that there should be some different colour icon where it's like this person is an expert, they are a qualified physio, you can listen to their advice. Or for you guys, this person is a qualified financial advice advisor, but you don't follow their advice. It's a really good point, and I think in, and I don't know if you're going to agree with this, but say health industry, it's more so more specifically medicine and your industry, there is a right way of doing it generally. You can kind of see input and output. I would say with finance and investment, investment beliefs between different people are very different, and neither are wrong, neither are right. It's very difficult. You can get two professionals who have very, very different views on what's going to happen. I think that is potentially the hardest part, because you could have someone who has no real financial knowledge, goes to a professional thinking that they're in good hands, and they're going to, you know, it's like going to a doctor, you're going to be, they're going to help you out, but they can have a very different belief. And beliefs change as well, because I think, I mean, I'm sure you would say, Jay, like, it would be interesting to hear, because my personal investment beliefs have changed a lot over the last five years, I'd say, from, if I look back five years to now, my whole philosophy is very, very different. So I'd be interested to hear what you think on that. Yeah, we actually see quite a lot of clients who have had financial advice that hasn't been necessarily good financial advice. Like, it's been given by someone who's not an investment professional, they're a financial planning professional. And we see some of these portfolios come to us and even those guys have been investing into things that we wouldn't be doing today. And sometimes it's, for example, one is a home country bias in the UK, where just because we're based in the UK, we believe in investing in UK assets, UK investments. Now, if you were to ask me what the biggest company is in the world, I probably wouldn't name a single British one. They're all going to be based in America. Now, portfolios that we see are skewed towards UK companies, despite the fact that the majority of the GDP in the world is generated overseas. And that's, again, that's a different philosophy and it's a difference of opinion. In investing you have this growth versus value and all these things. Fundamentally, if you're just trying to start somewhere and if we go back to the example of someone who's young and trying to invest their pension for the long term, having a low-cost global investment is probably very sensible in the stock market, a global tracker of some kind. And I think that that's where my mindset has been. The wiser I've got in this industry, the more I'm leaning towards biggest and best companies in the world and investing those for the long term. And with a low-cost tracker, that continues to recalibrate as well, so it doesn't have to be set in stone that it's like the 1,000 biggest companies today. That will continuously fluctuate because the companies that are the biggest today aren't going to be the same ones that will be the biggest in 30 years' time. And I feel that just having that access to those biggest and best companies is probably the... You wouldn't go wrong with that when it's a low-cost solution, but trying to overcomplicate it, you can do that. Like I say, we do see some clients who come to us who have had not necessarily the wrong financial advice, but it's just a different way that we would do it. But again, it doesn't necessarily mean that what we're doing is right. It's just a difference of opinion. Yeah. I think the belief thing is very interesting, I think. When I first started, and the reason I got into investing and why I thought this is what I want to do is I got a trading account when I was about 16 or something and I just started trading gold and I was like, this is what it is. This is what I want to do. I made like 50 quid or something just thinking that gold looked low, so I bought it and that kind of thing. I eventually lost all the money in there. Then I was like, okay, day trading isn't for me. I'm going to try something else. Then I went into, I think, as the years go, you did more exams. Then I started, all right, I can pick some stocks for the long term. I had a portfolio of stocks that I picked myself. I was like, yeah, they're going to do well. I can stock pick. It turned out I underperformed. I didn't lose my money, but I underperformed what the market would have done. Then I kind of transitioned slowly into more sticking with just funds rather than specific stocks now. It's a mix of passive and active funds. Me personally, this is not advice or anything. This is purely my opinion or what I've been doing is that I've kind of just, literally as you say, I've kind of just now moved into low-cost trackers. I can't really be bothered with anything else other than that. Keeping it as simple as possible other than a couple of good active funds that I still hold and still like. It's interesting just how your mind changes. I guess with stuff that happens in the economy, you do just naturally realize that when everything's going up, it's easy to say, I've done the right thing, I think is what I'm trying to say. I think in this case, when you're taking a very long-term approach, slow and steady wins the race. In the short term, you're trying to predict things. It's maybe a bit but something which is boring and steady and it can compound over the long term. The compounding element is vital when you're talking about if I'm a 25 or 30-year-old today, I'm thinking about retirement in 35, 40 years' time. Compounding is so important and just having something which is low-cost and boring and just steadily investing. We don't have the time or the knowledge sometimes to be doing it ourselves and paying attention to it. The amount of time it requires to understand specific stocks that you're investing into, the average person doesn't have that. It's our job. We have the access to the analytical data, the research analyst in the background, all this sort of stuff. Sometimes we have access to the CEOs, CFOs of these businesses as well. We have the time and the experience to be able to make those informed decisions and if you don't, just put it into something which is very, very simple. I think I'm going to track right back here to answer or talk about the question you asked earlier about our parents' view on health and fitness or in finance. I think something that I observe about the younger generations, us compared to our parents and the generations younger is impatience. I think we've read a society of quick gratification, video games, completing levels, now, now, now, now, now, rather than... It sounds like the actual best advice financially is yeah, you might be able to get a quick win. You might be that person who puts their money on Bitcoin at that right moment. Great. But on average, if you put your money into something safer and look to play the long game, that's a bit less subject to failure, right? I think you've hit the nail on the head. Absolutely. And I think that if you can do that monthly and then again, it's one other thing that a term in our industry is pound cost averaging. So if you are investing every month and you've got a certain amount of money that goes into your pension account or trading account or whatever and it's automatically investing it, you smooth out the ups and the downs. Sometimes when the market's up, you're buying there, but sometimes when it's down, you're buying. It's automatic. And then taking away all of the admin, all the friction, just buying something that's low cost, doing it monthly and having as little barriers to entry and hurdles as possible, that will pay dividends in the future, literal dividends. Right, so just changing the conversation slightly, I've got my third controversial statement of the evening. We need some kind of controversial statement. And this is going to be pretty relevant probably for most of our listeners. And it's to do with buying a house. So obviously house prices are mental at the moment. It's very difficult to get on the housing ladder. Our age range is probably looking at first time buyer. But I really like renting. And this is the controversial thing that I'm going to say because when you rent, your rent is going to be the maximum you're ever going to pay. Whereas if you own your house and you pay your mortgage every month, your mortgage is the minimum you're ever going to pay because if something goes wrong, your house tile falls off or your washing machine breaks, you're going to have to pay for that or your insurance or whatever. But that's my philosophy at the moment. Maybe it's just because I can't afford to buy a house in London. I've convinced myself it's better to rent forever. I love this. And actually it's something that I hear so much. I even had a client say to me recently I was talking about moving into a new place and she says don't you find it a waste of money to rent? And I said no not really because I've got optionality for example. I can live in a part, now this is probably very specific to London. I'm not too sure whether this translates to other areas of the UK but the London property market is insane. The rental market is crazy too, it's expensive but if you want to be able to buy somewhere that you can afford to live in you're probably looking at zones four or something like that somewhere a little bit further outside of where you want to live. Sometimes in areas that you don't enjoy living but you're investing for the future and you're trying to find an area that hasn't been gentrified for example now and it's going to make money in the future. And I've seen friends who have bought properties in these areas and I look at it and I say why did you do that? And I think it was okay to make these decisions when interest rates were low but now interest rates are at say 5%. Buying an overvalued property and having let's say a half a million pound mortgage for a modest property in London well at 5% that's 25 grand a year you're paying to the bank. So when my client says to me don't you think it's a waste of money well I've got, I can live in a property that I want to live in in an area of London that I want to live in almost like I'm living in a property at the moment I can't afford to buy And you're not tied to it And I'm not tied to it and I can do what I want and I can also look for the right property to come along in the meantime or would I choose to pay the bank interest and you know maybe throw the question back to you two out of those two scenarios paying money to a landlord or paying money to the bank in interest which one is a waste of money? So let me go I'll answer the question in a second but let me throw you another question back Just to be controversial So my response to that would be just to play devil's advocate here but Jay, investing in the property is a good investment and over time I'm going to make a lot more money why would I give my money to a landlord? Well first of all past performance is not an indicator of future performance Get that one in there In reality you don't know and it may go up in value and there is obviously the temptation to buy a property because I think the reason again we go back to that sort of parents analogy we've sat there and seen our parents sit on a plot of land and some bricks and it literally transformed their life My parents I think bought their first property for 27 grand and then it's probably worth a minimum when they sold it or whatever of 10 times that Do I think that if you bought a half a million pound property in London that in 20, 30 years time it's going to be 10 times that? I'd be very surprised if I'm honest with you and a half a million pound property in London doesn't really get you very much, it probably gets you a one bedroom flat So It's so depressing It's so depressing and I know that the property market in London has stagnated and one of my friends recently bought a place and this is hilarious when he was telling me but he made an offer below the asking price and the cheek of the agent to come back to him and say where did you get that value from? And that's not how offers work I've made an offer because it's what I'm making an offer to buy a property off you and then he came back and said well actually this is the value that he bought it for 6 years ago he spent another £150,000 on top of that doing it up it should be worth at least that and I think it was just like no just because you paid over the odds for it and then spent money on it doesn't mean that I have to then pay you back what you've invested in it in total 7 years it's been and he sold it for less money than he bought it for in the first place and he's also invested £150,000 in doing it up so I think there's a lesson there that property doesn't wake up, it can stagnate particularly when it's really expensive and going back to that the crypto element from earlier on is there a bubble? We don't know I'm sure that we've been asking ourselves the same question probably for the last 20, 30 years but they do feel unsustainable at the moment property prices particularly when interest rates are now at 5-6% I don't see how people get onto the ladder without prices coming down It is one of those things that it's almost it's such a common belief though that it's been drilled into everyone and I guess it's actually kind of parents areas that that is the main investment on average it's most people's wealth is tied up in their property of that age group but yeah I think right now I'm going to answer your question the initial one I think what people forget is that it costs money to buy not just the amount of the property it costs money to buy in terms of exchanging, paying different fees you've got to pay all sorts of things like that stamp duty and unless you're going to stick in that particular property for a certain period of time maybe 4-5 years it doesn't really make financial sense because if you're saying right I'm in London I'm probably only going to be here for 2 years if you go and buy a house because you can afford it, you're actually probably going to end up paying a lot more because you've now got a new job in a different city somewhere and yeah at the moment I think and I guess that's where it comes to your question is it depends where you are in your life where it works best for you if you're you want to start a family and you're going to settle down and you know you're going to be in a specific area for a long time yeah if you can afford it go and buy something but if you're still relatively young and you're not sure where you're going to be I think renting is such a good option and some people hate landlords but they do provide a service for people even if house prices were lower would you want to be tied down somewhere and not be able to if you want to go travelling right now you might not be able to if you couldn't let it out and that's the thing as well with stamp duty it's almost a deterrent because you have to pay that every time you move so you have to be making these decisions I think for the medium term about where you want to be living and if I'm completely honest with you I don't know where I want to live this time next year and again going back to that globalised world where we can just pop up in a different country sometimes and just start a business well get yourself a European girlfriend and you can do it that way I'll look out for one but no and I think that having the optionality for me at this point in my life is quite valuable I'm going to just throw a whole new direction on this it might not be as interesting for you I don't understand talk me through this seems like a really simple question what an average day in the life of what you do is I think as a physio people know what you do people come and see you you treat them in the treatment room you take them to the gym people can picture it for you boys I don't understand what would a day look like that is the mystique behind what we do that deters quite a lot of people from investing they see it as risky they don't have a lot of information and I think that having looking through the glass at sometimes what we're doing and it isn't all the six trading screens buy buy buy and you know sometimes particularly in the wealth management industry there is a lot of client service so we might be seeing clients there's a big onus on us to be going out there and doing annual reviews to make sure that what we're doing is suitable for our clients sometimes we are sitting there looking at trades on the portfolios and listening to research and that's the really fun part of the job sometimes it's networking sometimes it's going out there trying to bring in new business and trying to educate people on what they could do with their finances to improve their situation because I think that for a lot of people sometimes people don't even know the financial advice that they need and it's about how do you communicate that to make sure that people understand the importance of the service that you offer there's one particular company that are really good at marketing and they've just gone out there and managed to like touch really emotional points with people about like tax or family and inheritance tax and those sorts of things and they managed to generate really really strong business from it so it isn't all the glitz and the glamour that you might see on the wharf of Wall Street which is like these people pounding the phones but there is a lot more client servicing elements of our job as well as the portfolio management on the side and we're dealing with we're not institutional in the job that I do we are working in client facing and working with families and your parents for example and it's about holding their hand through the process as much as it is investing their portfolios yeah that's a good question because I think before, even when I was in uni I knew I wanted to get into finance but I actually had no idea of like day to day of what it would actually feel like yeah yeah I actually still thought it would be more about like trading screens getting on the phone, doing trades but no, as you say Jay you're kind of like, I kind of almost see a wealth manager specifically a bit like a GP you kind of know a lot about a little, no a little about a lot, sorry is that right? you've got a wide knowledge base but you don't have a speciality but your role is to meet with your patients or your clients and identify what their needs are and then if needed get a specialist in if you need it or if you can treat them there and then you can do that it's very much that kind of advisory role isn't it where it is you're just dealing with everyday people really I think that's kind of what you do on a day to day yeah and actually it's a really good point because in lockdown, being generalists and having to know a little about a lot we became epidemiologists in Covid because fundamentally your clients come to you expecting you to have an understanding about what's going on and there are some things that can catch you completely blindsided like a pandemic for example that we've not seen in our lifetime and all of a sudden you have to be processing the data and looking at the death count and these sorts of things and trying to work out how severe this is going to be for the economy because you're investing people's money at its core into the economy, you're investing into businesses and how are those businesses going to be impacted and do you have to completely transform your strategy or is what you've got going to be okay and when the war between Russia and Ukraine last year kicked off we had to be war experts and looking at like oil prices and these sorts of things so our clients do come to us expecting us to have all of this information exactly the same as you'd expect to go to a GP but they are a general practitioner. It's a very good analogy Scott. So Jay we've just looked at the time and we've been talking for hours. We've been talking for ages already and I think we could sit and do another hour and a half probably. I haven't actually been bored if I'm honest. You've been really engaging. Thank you. Something that we want to add into the podcast is when we get guests on from a finance aspect they can fire a question in to me. A health guest comes in they can fire a question to Scott or discuss something so the floor is yours. If you want to pop in this way. I guess so Going back to the social media element. I am one of those people that is influenced by I think some adverts I've seen and Instagram I think in particular is fantastic at giving you very targeted ads that you didn't know you needed but then all of a sudden you want it. One of those is you've probably heard of it the Vivo barefoot shoe which is something I purchased and enjoying it quite a lot. I've seen the data that they provide about foot strength and ankle strength and those sorts of things. What do you think about that? Good question. I own a pair as well. What? I own a pair as well. Where did it start for you? It's like a gateway drug isn't it? I think I've always been a big advocate of exercising out of shoes. I work in professional football and the foot is a really complex being it has loads of muscles in it and we have society has we weren't evolutionary we weren't designed to have shoes on. So we've provided more and more supportive footwear more and more cushioned footwear and people have got weaker through their foot. They've stopped using their foot entirely. So I'm actually an advocate of training in barefoot. It doesn't necessarily need to be that grand. To be honest sometimes I just go into the gym in socks as long as I'm not pissing anyone off. But training, getting used to lifting and actually working on my balance and control especially the one thing that I would advocate in terms of not spraining your ankle frequently is get your foot strong get those fine movements better. So yeah from that standpoint I'm a big advocate. However the flip side of that is what I've seen quite a few people do with fads. They read something they go from never training in barefoot to suddenly running loads of kilometres a week in barefoot shoes and suddenly overloading their foot to a massive degree and in a shed load of pain. So it's like with anything start small maybe use them occasionally and gradually build up your tolerance to them. Don't go from wearing steel toe cap boots every day for work and suddenly run 100 kilometres a week in barefoot shoes because you're then asking for trouble because you haven't got that stability at that point. So yeah I like them. The other thing I'd say is again when any company provides the data try and find an external source of it. But that kind of goes back to what we were saying earlier doesn't it. Do you think the type of surface so I know you mentioned evolutionary there the type of surface that we now walk on is now very different to what our ancestors walked on so like in terms of lots of grass, dirt, very soft. Now if we're training and using barefoot on concrete where it's like the impact is going to hurt a lot more is that going to affect potential damage I guess you could do to that? Again you've just got to be aware of I think you can condition the body to pretty much anything if you take that graded exposure approach. If you go from really cushioned shoes on soft surface to running on concrete in those you're asking for a shed load of trouble. But if you were to build it up slowly the body will adapt to that stimulus you give it. I actually bought them initially to be my gym shoe and I used to do what you said I'd go into the gym and I would be dead lifting, I'd be squatting and I'd be doing that in socks and then I got the advert and I was like this is brilliant I can do this without having to take my shoes off every time. And then I went for a walk and I did, I live in Finchley Park so the lap of the park is probably about 2.5km and I got back and I was like the front of my shins are not aching but they are like tired and I'm feeling a sensation in the front of my shins I've never felt before. Now I guess that goes back to your point of build up gradually. I went for a long walk and I'm using parts of my... And on an unstable surface and a bumpy set with uneven terrain as well. Yeah and I would never dream I never dreamt of going for a run first thing but now I've seen just like a slight ache in the front of my shins from walking for 2.5km there's probably the damage that could have been done. Absolutely, definitely and I've seen it just so frequently in clinics so I wouldn't then demonise the shoe, people then go these things and that's their rubbish they caused me this pain. No you caused yourself that pain but I ain't a fucking idiot like you've got to build things up slowly and actually never underestimate terrain actually is a good point generally away from the shoe just literally a conversation this week I had a football coach comes to me, he's been training and playing on Astro for months and has been fine he did one session at the same intensity 20 minutes and he got this really deep ache in his calf just because he was suddenly on grass and his soleus muscle which is really important for stability was like screaming and he did the same length of session and suddenly it just changed his terrain and that's caused symptoms without any other, no other factor has changed in that journey, luckily not a bad injury but it's just one of those where we go do you know we have quite set flat stable surfaces when we train most of the time but then if you've gone outside for a long walk that can massively change your load factors I want to see the Vivo barefoot football boot now yeah we'll be coming we'll be following you up that would be very cool actually a little duck seat well thank you very much mate yeah thank you so much and just have a chat about loads of different topics it's been very wide ranging yeah it's been a pleasure well sign out time, you can join in Jay just at the end it's really important come in in the last few words my email address so everything you heard in this podcast today was our opinions only and this is not financial advice if you feel you feel as though you do want some financial advice always seek professional help he didn't comment on it very good