Podcast 2- bestest version with audio

Aman and Sanjeeva discuss the concept of privilege and its impact on the education system. Privilege, seen as a special advantage possessed by individuals or groups, can lead to inequality in education. Private education, considered a privilege, provides better opportunities and resources, resulting in higher academic achievement and better job prospects. Students from lower socioeconomic backgrounds face disadvantages such as lack of resources and limited government funding. Efforts to bridge the divide and prioritize equality and inclusivity in education include the introduction of academies. However, more needs to be done to create equal opportunities for all students. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this exclusive episode on the Equality of the Mind. My name is Aman. And my name is Sanjeeva. And for one time only, we're going to be discussing between us the psychological approach to how the education system should be more EDI, equal, diverse and inclusive, and not the privilege which facilitates success and prestige in education. Yet, although controversial, we're going to be discussing whether privilege actually facilitates success in terms of academic attainment, or do people use the notion of disprivilege as a way to avoid taking responsibility for their academic failings. Now when we talk about privilege, what does that mean to you? I think that privilege is such a nuanced topic, and the foundation of the idea of privilege is set on the literal dictionary definition, a special advantage or right possessed by an individual group. What do you think? I mean, to me, privilege is exclusivity, it's a special advantage that only a particular person or group is privy to. So the concept of EDI is completely counter-accessed by campaigning that all people should have equal rights and treatment, and be welcome and included, and not experience any disadvantage due to belonging to a particular group. And I think this also helps to prevent the effects of prejudice and discrimination at an organisational level. But I just think that everyone has such a personal definition for privilege, and it's based on personal perception, because the privilege I face as a brown woman from a middle-class background, it's so different to that of someone who's also brown, but from a higher or lower class background. So it's just a question of whether we can define it using such simple words. Yeah, privilege is so broad, and the continued existence of privilege is something that completely counteracts the principles that EDI promotes so strongly, because it's so exclusive. I mean, especially if we place that in the context of the education system, which I guess we both have quite similar experiences with. Yeah, I think our experiences in the education system are probably similar, and so we can probably both acknowledge how big the effects of privilege is in the education system. I also think that this is such an important discussion, because the lack of privilege in this system can have such a detrimental impact on future aspects, such as careers and just general positioning in society. Yeah, it's definitely so important to discuss, because privilege can have such a massive influence, I mean, especially on the quality of a person's education. How would you say privilege influences the quality of education? I mean, I think it's pretty safe to argue that a high level of disposable income is a form of privilege in society, right? If you retain a high socioeconomic status, it means you can afford the best, and as a result of your economic position in society, you can be privileged enough to be able to afford to be privately educated. Now, I'm sure we're all familiar with the debate about private schools versus state schools. Oh yeah, definitely. It's a very existing debate, actually. Yeah, it's very apparent that private education is indeed considered a privilege. And to me, that drives exclusivity and inequality within the education system. I mean, in the UK as a whole, the proportion of children of UK resident families actually participating in private education is approximately 5.8%. That's extremely exclusive. For example, Durham University has a reputation of being extremely prestigious, and in 2019, Durham University ranked fifth in the entire UK. And their intake of private school students alone was 65.7%, which is way more than any other university in the UK. I mean, could it be the image of prestige that Durham looks for when accepting their students? Because it just gives those who've experienced privilege a better shot. I mean, possibly, because this sort of high economic status is a privilege, and it's clearly influential when applying for higher education. Because when we look at statistics from the likes of the Institute of Fiscal Studies on students from privately educated backgrounds, it shows that 70% of them went on to be undergraduate students, compared to less than 20% of kids from the poorest fifth of households who didn't even attain an undergrad. So this clearly shows that the quality of education received from private schools is more beneficial, not only in terms of academic achievement, but also just landing in a better position in society. Yeah. And I think the researchers Ferreira and Ginux in 2011 discussed how there's two types of inequalities, inequality in opportunity and inequality in outcomes. And being from a background in which your parents can afford the luxury of providing their child with private education, it does naturally lead to more opportunities. But if we're all applying for the same jobs and same positions whilst having different qualities of education, is it a true reflection of equal treatment? I mean, yeah, that's really interesting. Because apparently, according to the Private Education Policy Forum in 2022, around 87% of pupils at private schools have parents who are business owners, or have some kind of professional managerial background. So this may indirectly influence academic attainment. But if you have limited financial resources in your home, it does affect the quality of services that you receive, right? Because it's whether you can afford it or not. Yeah, it definitely depends. I mean, the dominant view held about academic attainment is a high socioeconomic status is strongly implicated in higher educational achievement. And according to the UK government website in 2021, the highest correlated factor with a correlation of 0.45 to exam success is a person's socioeconomic status. So I think it's pretty safe to assume that those with a higher socioeconomic background sets them with a higher probability to experience more privileges, like a private education. And with a private education, you're predicted to perform better. I mean, around 6% of private school students are more likely than public school students to progress to undergraduate study at any institution. And this is arguably because of the privileges that they're able to receive from the higher quality education. Yeah, definitely. And this is such a big contrast to students from a lower income background. And despite their face, as a lack of quality can be seen in such apparent ways. For example, lack of resources is a big one. The National Literacy Trust had statistics which showed that three to four teachers argued for the importance of technology involvement across the curriculum. But that same statistic showed that only two out of five students had access to a desktop computer. And actually, this is something I relate to, because I attended a state school primary where two or even three of us would have to squish and shove one computer. Yeah, one person would have a mouse, and the other person would have a keyboard, because no computers actually work. Yeah, exactly. And doesn't it just show the abundant lack of government funding in public schools? I mean, even the Guardian noted that 40% of primary schools don't even have a dedicated library budget. And it's leading to a persistent and long-term lack of care and funding. But even so, when there was funding that went into the expansion of higher education to help people from lower economic backgrounds get better and equal access, Glenister in 2001 noted that instead of seeing an increase from lower socioeconomic background students, they saw an increase of attendance from higher class students. That's interesting. Yeah, it's really shocking as well, because those statistics show that it went from 55% to 72%. And this is a reflection of the fact that even though organizations are trying to put in interventions to give equal opportunities, there needs to be positive action, which leads to an equal opportunity structure. Yeah. I mean, I do think that this needs to change, because education should be equal and inclusive and not a privilege. But then again, if you could afford private education, I mean, wouldn't you utilize it? I mean, honestly, I would, because as we've discussed and as data has shown us, even from the likes of Green and colleagues in 2017, in which their study shows that the employment of people from privately educated backgrounds was a 68% advantage rate in the workforce compared to state school graduates. Yeah, I mean, I just think that it helps to take some burden off the government resources. I mean, with students who can afford private education out of the state school system, more resources are then more in abundance to those who actually require it. So the EDI interventions by the government to bridge this divide and prioritize this equality and inclusivity within the education system. And I think they actually did this through the introduction of academies in the 2000s. Oh, really? I actually went to an academy in Newcastle, which was just a previously state one secondary school, I think. Yeah, I went to one, but mine was in London. But the basic idea of them was to replace a failing school in an inner city area with a brand new school. So that means like new building, new staff. And most importantly, they had autonomy over key areas of decision making. So academies would be managed by their sponsors and any governors that they would appoint. There was freedom of the curriculum and all aspects of school organization. And the aims were to target core issues of people underachievement within secondary schools and deprived areas. Oh, that's a really good area to aim to create improvements in because it has been said that people's chances and opportunities often get limited by their postcode. But I believe that policies like the Education Reform Act introduced in 1988 did allow for open enrollment in secondary schools. So students were able to apply for school outside their catchment areas. Yeah. But as of October 1st in 2012, there were 2,373 academies open in England. Right. So I think that the change in the dynamics of the educational facility carried a change towards the culture of public education to mirror the culture of private education. So students who previously may have underachieved due to the quality of their school have an equal chance to achieve now, because by having freedom over the curriculum and all aspects of the school, that works to equalize the value that's placed on education. But how does that work? I mean, what does changing from under governmental authority actually do for students? And how does it make way for higher academic attainment? I mean, Gaziel in 1997 did a study, right? And it shows that secondary schools vary in academic achievement because of cultural dimensions of the school, especially in the academic emphasis of the school. So that means that the value that they place on academic achievement, right? So in the study, they used 10 schools with 70% classed as disadvantaged students. And in the Tsuki post hoc test, the greatest significant differences regarding academic emphasis on achievement were between the effective schools and the average schools. And this accounted for 42% of the variance. So basically, the more the school culture placed an importance on academic achievement, the better the students succeeded. So academies now having authority over their own schools changes the entire culture of the school environment because it now prioritizes academic attainment. So I guess this also highlights why private education yields better results, because the environment is cultivated for academic success. And private school education almost guarantees academic achievement because they promise that strict academic culture, which leads to success. That makes sense, because by equalizing the quality of education for those who can't afford private education, it should help reduce the effects of disprivilege. And actually, this reminds me of another policy that was introduced, which I'm sure has benefited a lot of people. It was the Revised Universities Act in 1997. And this introduced tuition fees for students who weren't able to pay in full. And also, essentially, the student finance loan system. And this was an amazing intervention, because during the 1980s, only 15% of students past the age of 18 stayed on for further education, which contrasts to recent statistics from 2017 and 2018, where this statistic has finally risen to more than 50.2%, which the BBC News claims to be the result of that exact policy change. Yeah, without student finance, I would not be able to be at university right now. So I guess this does show evidence for the government and the system attempting to provide better support for those who are socioeconomically underprivileged. And it also does prove that the amount of money that you have does have an effect on how many opportunities you can receive. Yet, I don't think that we can say that socioeconomic issues are a linear explanation for academic success. I mean, I think that we're broadcasting a bit. Yeah, honestly, I do see where you're coming from. Because whilst researching these areas, I do feel as though there's many other reasons for academic failure and unequal footing in the education system. It's really hard to blame it all on just low socioeconomic status. But then again, not everyone with money is successful during school, right? So it's possible that we could be using your socioeconomic status as a scapegoat for academic failings, because you have no control over which house you're born into. And as you get into higher education, you need to have academic ability. I mean, Anderson in 2020 said that as children mature into teenagers, the schooling becomes more formal. And the conscientiousness is likely to become increasingly important in your educational performance. So we may be underestimating the power of psychological traits and influencing key educational outcomes. But when it comes down to the exams, you need to perform well, like you have to have the ability to perform well. Yeah, that's true. I think your overall ability to perform well is a huge internal factor, which impacts academic achievement. And it also impacts how much you make of education itself, because many psychologists, such as Martin Agee in 2002, have actually studied attributional factors for influencing academic success and found that school engagement played a vital role for academic resilience. And school engagement is dependent on yourself and your own level of desire and motivation. So it really is what you make of the experience, which leads you to the pursuit of educational success. Yeah, I mean, if we look at more evidence, O'Connell and Marks quite recently in 2022 through a stratified cluster design, they converted 8,303 GCSE results from students all over the UK to numerical scores. And they looked at your socioeconomic status and two psychological factors, one being your cognitive ability and two, the level of conscientiousness on GCSE attainment. And they found that through varied cognitive ability tests dependent on age and a principal component analysis, that educational attainment is most highly influenced by your cognitive score and conscientiousness at 30.1%. Whereas your socioeconomic status is only accounted for 11%. So this result demonstrates that social class and your income have a much weaker effect on one's cognitive ability and conscientiousness. I mean, it's down to your own ability to perform well at the end of the day. Yeah, honestly, in an epidemic of social media and other means of procrastination, it is easy for us to use external factors as an excuse for our failings. However, as you've just mentioned, cognitive ability, there's other factors such as low self-esteem, which can affect one's ability. For example, a recent study conducted by Albert Martens and colleagues in 2002 assessed the correlation between self-esteem and academic achievement in about 838 students who were 12 to 17 years old. And they found that students with low academic achievement also suffered from low self-esteem. And this is a significant finding, which highlights the role of academic achievement in the self-esteem of young students. It also just shows how important it is to recognize the different factors influencing and also the discussion of this topic in general, because if there is a causal relationship between self-esteem and academic achievement, then EDI interventions need to be put into place to ensure that education isn't a point of suffering for young students. I mean, what EDI-related interventions could put in place for this? I think I would suggest having bi-weekly mental health workshops in schools, which can allow students to have more open conversations with professionals and broaden their knowledge on this topic. Yeah, I think that could be effective. But there's so many other internal factors which influence academic failure. I think another big factor could be the lack of motivation. But motivation can be fueled by so many things. I mean, a supportive home environment or even access to proper nutrition is so vital for energy and motivation. And this is actually a direct influence of your socioeconomic status, that you can't outrun it. Yeah, that's true. You know, poor nutrition at home can increase the risk of a range of health and developmental problems as students progress through their education, because it affects your cognitive ability. I mean, Ivanovic in 1992 found that Chilean schoolers that obtained a low percentage of achievement registered a significantly lower frequency of consumption of dairy products. So through an achievement evaluation program and academic aptitude test, they found that food habits explained 24.4 and 16.6 percent of the educational achievement variance in elementary and high school graduates. And Taras in 2005 did a mass analysis for 18 studies, all focusing on the consumption of breakfast and the effects that it has on school kids. And they concluded that by stating that offering a healthy breakfast is an effective measure to improve academic performance and cognitive functioning. Oh, yeah. I think my primary school also offered a breakfast club, which I never went to, because honestly, I don't think I would have ever woken up on time. But I think that students who did go probably had a way more productive day, because they can start their day with sitting and eating with their friends, which I'm sure is a positive start to their day. And actually, the researchers Defeated, Graham and Russo in 2015 also agreed with that and found the results of that in students. And also other researchers, Adolphus, Claire and Louise Dye in 2013 found that school breakfast programs had a positive influence on academic performance of students and even showed results which suggested that there was a big influence on maths. And I'm so glad that my parents didn't know that. They would have definitely forced me to go. Yeah. The UK government as an EDI intervention to counteract underachievement in deprived areas was actually to introduce the free school meal scheme. And it was for those who were deemed low socioeconomic status. So for both physical and emotional health, a healthy diet is crucial. So by guaranteeing that kids from low income households have access to nutritious, well balanced meals, the free school meal program helps to reduce those health inequalities among students. And proper nutrition has also been linked to better concentration and cognitive engagement. So by addressing these nutritional needs of students, the free school meal scheme can take some pressure off the home and it contributes to that supportive environment where students are more alert and better able to engage with academic tasks. But there's always issues with these types of schemes like staffing and budgeting. Yeah. Budget constraints definitely limits the scope and quality of the program because I remember during the lockdown, the government was only able to provide a £20 voucher for children on free school meal programs, which is arguably not enough for five days. So budget constraints is definitely a point in which people can question the long term effects of. Yeah. I mean, in 2020, when Covid hit, over 200,000 children were missing meals and the government was talking about ending the scheme, right? But the man who likes a football player, Marcus Rashford, with his hashtag make the U10 campaign as an ambassador for fair share, saw the replacement for these free school meals through the lockdown and raised an estimate of £20 million to the charity in 2020. It also triggered the government to fund an additional £400 million towards free school meals. Oh, yeah, I actually remember that. But then again, while addressing these nutritional needs is crucial, you can argue that a more holistic approach is necessary to tackle the root causes of educational inequality. I mean, this could include like broader policies to address housing and health care and income disparities. But something else that I found was rather interesting was that the free school meal scheme actually highlights a religious disparity, right? 24% of white British students have been entitled to a free school meal at some point in the last six years. But this is at 61% of Bangladeshi students. UK schools are notorious for their cultural sensitivity because they don't have a very good track record. And most students from a Bangladeshi background are from the Islamic faith, meaning that they have that strict dietary requirement known as halal. But this is not implemented or has been discussed in any policy for these free school meals. Oh, actually, I'm Bengali. I'm Muslim. And during primary school, halal options were definitely limited, which wasn't great for my peers who were on a free school meal scheme. But this did improve in secondary school, where we did have a whole section for halal options. But I just feel as though the discussion on halal meat fluctuates a lot. And it just feels as though people are very ignorant to these things and the groups of people who are Muslim and are on free school meals. I mean, it's just so interesting because I think those who qualify for the scheme the most are not being accommodated for. And therefore, that does not ensure that the meal options are inclusive and does not respect cultural diversity of the student population. I mean, growing up, there was little cultural or religious awareness surrounding halal meat. I think it was about the time when I entered sixth form, actually. There were a few halal things in my school. But my school year mainly consisted of eating jack of potatoes. So for cultural inclusivity, due to the diverse dietary requirements, there should be some kind of cultural or religious competence training. In order to recognise and accommodate the diverse dietary preferences and restrictions based on these cultural and religious beliefs. Yeah, I think cultural inclusivity is so linked to racial disparities in the educational system, which I believe is regenerated by the unfair social constructs in the community, which leads to things like the lack of motivation. It's something that maybe you and I can even relate to, as most of the racial minority groups migrated to this country, right? So for me personally, my grandfather migrated here in the 1970s, and my mother migrated to this country two decades ago now. And I think immigrants come to this country with so much optimism. And actually, Karl and Tienda in 1995 coined the term immigrant optimism, because they come here with a sense of desire, determination and motivation to better their lives. But they're just met with harsh realities of the receiving countries who don't even offer their migrant population equality in education, as argued by Breen and Johnson in 2005. And I mean, looking at the current state of our government, this continues to be true. And when such claims and such conversations are taking place, how can one even have the motivation to succeed when the government they live under doesn't even try to see them succeed? Yeah, that's also true. But I think that's reinforced, especially when we see the statistics that would show like this drive for education. For example, we see Pakistani boys from immigrant backgrounds and the low socioeconomic background outperform white boys from low socioeconomic backgrounds on their GCSEs. And this could also be due to something known as the immigrant paradigm by Cowan Thompson in 2003. It suggests that recent immigrants devote themselves more to education than the native population, because they lack that financial capital, and they see education as a way out of poverty. Oh, really? Hats off to them for continuing to have the drive for success in this kind of system. But it's interesting, because for Pakistani girls from high socioeconomic backgrounds, they don't perform as well as white girls from high socioeconomic backgrounds. Oh, really? Why? I think it could be down to some of these traditional attitudes to gender roles. I mean, lower perceived benefits of daughters in relative to a son's education, right? So the idea of protection of daughters at school can also be misinterpreted as oppression and a lack of freedom. And it's also seen as safer for girls in the community to stay at home. And therefore, they're not as encouraged to pursue their education past 16 in relative to the boys. But in my case, this isn't true, because my parents prioritized my education more than anything, right? It was like regardless of gender. I was the first girl in my entire extended family to move out to university, because the opportunity to study at such a prestigious university puts you in such a better position for society. And I think we are seeing organizations actually acknowledge this. Because they advertise opportunities to students who come from these low socioeconomic backgrounds and are part of some kind of diversity group, such as LGBT or BAME. They have a higher chance of an offer at university. And I think many human rights activists had talked about this. Arguably one of the biggest human rights activists, Martin Luther King, did a speech on this when he got his honorary degree and said that changes in the legislation is the way to counteract these disparities, because it will lead to the eventual change of people's hearts too. But this speech was done in 1967, and it's currently 2023. And there's still issues. So I don't know. I just feel as though the counteractive measures that are put in place are just not enough. But I guess we have to ask ourselves, like, is this fair? Like, are these measures equal? Because what about the white students that come from low socioeconomic backgrounds? Are we forgetting the majority by focusing on this minority? Because if the majority is benefiting, isn't that seen as like a win? I mean, you can argue that. But when we know that there's major racial disparities, can we just ignore it? I mean, when we see the official Ofsted website, which is an office which looks at the standard of teaching and education in schools, all they see is that they call for change when it comes to racial disparities in the education system, and that there needs to be, quote-unquote, honest self-reflection. But is that enough? Yeah, I guess this just comes across as like a recommendation, you know, not a specific act to change. Yeah, exactly. Especially when we see the statistics for attainment gaps, which, by the way, are so recent too. I mean, just in 2016 and 2017, Alexander and Shankly noted that GCSE results showed such a wide attainment gap for students from Chinese, Indian backgrounds who were achieving A stars to Cs, and Black, Caribbean, Pakistani, and traveler students who showed to be least likely to achieve such grades. And even in cross-cultural studies, Smith in 2005 noted that in America, in fourth grade, the percentage of students who score below proficient in math include three to four times as many African-American and Latino students as their white peers. And if such achievement gaps between races are being found across Western countries, I think it's just a mere reflection of our current Western society. And even when we look at the current workforce, it's very unlikely that we would see people of color working at the top of the hierarchy. And the lack of effort from the government to investigate these issues just shows how they're one of the reasons for regenerating racial disparities. And when students and kids are met with this kind of society, which undermines them on what they can achieve from the beginning, it definitely does lead to a lack of drive. Yeah, so maybe there does need to be EDI interventions, like cultural awareness workshops. Because I personally believe that the way to bridge racial disparities is through education and by educating each other on each other's cultures. Because it's just the fear of the unknown which translates into prejudice. Yeah, I agree with that. Because I think a lot of the time, it can be caused by the personal perceptions from teachers, which leads to the prejudice. Because by nature, such discrimination is systemic. For example, Pereira in 2022 notes that the discipline for children of color is way harsher. Statistics from schools showed that black students were two to four times more likely to be suspended than white students. So rectifying the thought process of educators and offering them awareness classes so that they don't stay ignorant of their own behaviors could be a possible intervention. Yeah, I mean, I remember reading somewhere that recent prevention policies targeting radicalization, schools and teachers have actually been criticized, because they've been producing highly radicalized surveillance of Muslim and South Asian pupils. I mean, but that threatens the relationship between these local communities and schools. It just perpetuates the idea that South Asian students are being villainized. It does nothing to inclusivity. Yeah, and I think such situations can be changed if we ensure that our education systems have a diverse workforce, which has also been deemed to be beneficial by the likes of Goldworthy, Ward and Thien in 2015. But I think that for there to be diversity, there needs to be an understanding of why it's important. And a term coined by Professor Crenshaw describes this perfectly. And it's a term intersectionality, which is the understanding of the way that multiple forms of inequality compound and create obstacles. So maybe that's why the change has been so slow, because maybe there's not enough critical consciousness in our government policymakers to understand these obstacles. Yeah, I would personally recommend this be interventions like we previously mentioned, you know, like the mental health one and the cultural awareness workshop implemented, because it bridges the disparities that are continuing to exist in this education system. But in my opinion, being educated about others allows you to be free from bias, like allows you to be equitable. Yeah. And as we've seen, these disparities and these privileges aren't just limited to external factors, but they're also internal factors like personal traits. But you know, I think EDI interventions for external factors can lead to a positive impact on the internal factors. Yeah, it's all linked. Yeah, because I think, yeah, it's so interrelated. I mean, when we discussed the lack of motivation, we discussed how it could be caused by lack of nutrition, which arguably can also be a result of poverty. True. It's really interesting to see how interrelated these issues are. Because as an example, remember when we discussed racial disparities, we also see that a lot of these people are from a minority migrant background. And minority migrant backgrounds are also from low socioeconomic backgrounds. Exactly. So I think it just all stems from the same place. And I think that if the government are able to provide interventions which have big impacts on big factors like socioeconomic underprivileges one can experience in the education system, then maybe all other issues would also be minimized. I think talking about inequality and diversity and how to be inclusive is always the first step. And honestly, judging from all of this, I don't believe that we are using privilege as a scapegoat to justify failings. I genuinely believe that it has a large effect on how far you can go in education. So through having these EDI interventions that minimize effects like academies and free school meal scheme and the university policy changes and accepting more diverse students will slowly help to equalize education for students in the UK. Definitely. But there's definitely still more work that needs to be done. So on that note, let's close up this podcast. Thank you everyone for listening. I hope that it was interesting, insightful and impactful. I hope you enjoyed listening to our take on the disparities in the education system and how influential the effects of privilege can be. I've been your host, Aman. And I've been your host, Sanjita. And I hope you remember that education should be EDI and not a privilege.