LS_30117 phyllis Klotz and smal

The conversation revolves around the transformation of theater in South Africa. The speakers discuss how theater content and administration have changed post-apartheid. They debate whether the theater has truly transformed or if it remains the same, with some criticizing the lack of innovation and originality in the productions. There is also a discussion on the influence of European standards in theater and the need to create work that reflects African traditions and engages with local audiences. The speakers express concerns about funding distribution in theaters and the importance of collaboration in creating impactful theater. They emphasize the need for true transformation in theater to better represent South African culture and engage with diverse audiences. He would like. Yes. He is coming back. I prefer Eddie rather than me. Okay. You'll ask the questions, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my general subject is this transformation of theater and I would like to know at first about your idea of that expression and of its content, whether it has a content for you because I discovered that there are a couple of people who think that there is more or less nothing related to it because it didn't work out at all. But basically, I think it's a notion or it's an expression, it's an idea, it's a concept which is originally of a certain content. Yeah. Well, I don't think the theater has transformed at all in content. Maybe it's transformed in administration because most of the theaters... It covers both. Yeah. So, maybe it's transformed in administration in that we have black CEOs in theaters whereas before we had white CEOs. But if you look at what theaters are actually producing, I just think it's same old, same old. It's very new for me, really. And I think the content is pretty thin. Maybe there are new plays being produced but maybe the context has changed but the format is still the same. I haven't seen any piece of South African work that has said, wow, this is really breaking new ground. It's more conceptual or it's not conceptual or it's using one of the indigenous languages in a different way or it's examining the society in a different way. I don't think so. Myself included. Well, I can talk in terms of... Because we're an NGO, you know, and it has transformed in a way in the sense that, you know, during the apartheid days, there was protests there and the world was much more So people like Barney Simon and all that, you know. And after 1994, we found ourselves that there's nothing to tell the world apart because apartheid is gone. So now what we do now is to find other means now to, you know, sell ourselves. So you find that we went back now to issues which, you know, we can attract audiences to ourselves. So that's the way I feel. Well, as for the government itself and all that, like Chris is saying, nothing has changed actually because it's still the same kind of thing. We find that the old institutions are still getting money, like, but it hasn't reached the people, you know, down where, you know, it should be. So that's all that I can say at the moment. So we're still trying to find something that can make the German people be, you know, interested in the South African era because it doesn't sell. I mean, there's nothing from South Africa now. Maybe if you can start talking about Nicaragua, maybe Zuma. But Red Bailey is selling nicely in Europe and in the US. But we don't see them. We don't, yeah. But I've seen... Yeah, but these latest productions, they don't come to Germany. We don't see them. South Africa has trial runs in Cape Town. Maybe one or two go to Grahamstown if they can afford it. But they don't come to Jo'burg. The last thing I think we did in Jo'burg was Big Dagger a couple of years ago. So it's now made not for South Africa anymore. It's not made for South Africa. South Africa has a trial run. But you know what, Ralph? Even why I say nothing is transformed or nothing. If you look at the new Soweto Theatre architecturally, it could be anywhere. It's not a South African theatre. What is a South African theatre? Well, that's what I would say. Let's look at even exploring alternative spaces. Let's look at looking at how do we do our work in other spaces that's not influenced by other things. Do we, like, take a performance in the round? Okay, it's not... But do you know what I'm saying? How are we exploring even space to look at a new society? So they build a theatre that could be such a theatre in any small German town or anywhere in Europe. It doesn't grab me at all. The spaces are conventional. I mean, I'm actually interested myself in looking at new theatre forms and new spaces, not necessarily site-specific, but looking at how to interrogate space. Well, I think that, you see, when you talk of... You see, people like Bailey, I mean, you find that they explore what kind of interest the theatres in Germany do, you know, which is different from coming up with something from Africa and selling it down there. So you find that if I can get down and learn what is the interest of the popular majority of people in Germany, then I can create something that can... You know, so I'm creating something that people from there enjoy. You know, as a director, you've got to be clever and, you know, you adapt to what they want, give them what they want, and then you give them a bit of African, but then, because there's a demand for that, you know, they enjoy it, you see. But if, from our tradition, that we're telling stories about things that are happening here, you know, in order that you should get interested in us and touring. But then, it's like, for instance, I know what Americans want, you know, and then I go to America, I live in New York for some time, and then I give them what they want. But what are we doing at home? And then I forget about what is happening at home, you see. I do what the Americans want. I look like Americans and I perform in Holland and all that, then they enjoy that because I'm talking about Malcolm X and all that, all the relevant things there, you see. But Malcolm X has got nothing to do with this. But we are clever enough to come up with something that makes those people feel, wow, you know. So there are people who adapt. That's what I think, you know. But there are people who feel that, you, as South Africans, what can we produce? Something genuine that comes from us, you know. Then we work that thing, and then we find that when it gets down there, wow, you know. So there's a difference in creating work, you know. I think what interests me in transformation, what interests me is, you know that Mexican form of popular theatre that they have, it's almost like buffoonery. I think if our theatre were really transformed, we would look for a South African kind of popular theatre. Because if you look at the 50s and the early 60s in South Africa, the majority of the black population living in the country were very much involved in performance arts. Especially like, you know, harmonies, singing books and things like that. And I mean, I know everybody derives his content. There's, you know, there's a... But he had some kind of mass populist appeal. And I think if we were transformed, we would be looking for a kind of theatre that speaks to people and is not necessarily not engaging intellectually. That you could access it, but it also would have intellectual content, you know. But we're not doing that. And also another thing what upsets me very much is this becoming this European cult of the writer. That's not how African performance works. I'm not saying we shouldn't have writers. But if you look at our best historical works, they come from collaboration. And people are throwing that out. Because now we're having this cult of the writer. We don't have writers, we don't have books. But what about the African collective? Which has produced great work. I mean, the fact that even the early fugitives, which I like, like Seaswear and Waza and stuff like that, they still have relevance today in spite of the political overlay. Because it's about the human condition in a particular way. Those were all done collaboratively. So why are we throwing that notion out in favour of people who write? I was at that agitators thing yesterday and all we heard about was, oh well, you know, we will work with a writer. That doesn't interest me actually, personally. We come from another tradition. I mean, if you ask me, am I a writer? I would say no. And yet there are plays that are published by Smalley and myself. But I don't think of myself as a writer, per se. I can write if I'm working with you. And I'll bounce off you. But I couldn't sit and write on my own. But I would need the collaborative thing. And I think we're also losing that. And I think the theatre makers in the cultural institutions today are so bogged down and bloated by the money and the expenses of running big buildings and our government's predilection for CapEx. You know what CapEx is? CapEx is building. Building funds. That they've lost sight of making the work. So that's a transformation. All the theatres, I mean, Artscape in K-Town, I don't know how many hundred million they've spent on refurbishing, not so much the theatre, yes, but also the offices. Market Theatre is doing the same. I think the state is falling behind. The State House did the same and continues to do so. But the state theatre at least has something like 15 or 20% of its subsidies as an artistic budget, which the market doesn't have. Absolutely. Which apparently has already negotiated with the National Arts Council. No, not the National Arts Council. With the government. Well, nobody says, you see, this is the point. And if I remember correctly, Aubrey doesn't get the largest subsidy, no? No. He doesn't. And he's got the most theatres. I think the Playhouse gets the most subsidy and that's through political connections. And the Playhouse, I can say categorically, because we worked there last year and the year before, they're dark most of the time. They have three theatres there. We arrived in, when did we arrive there? In April. We left in May. During that time there was, I think, one night show. But they are nightly administrating themselves. Yes. Yes. And they'll tell you all the time that they don't have money. And one other thing, you know, is that, well, transformation can only be there when the top, the government, you know, can give a fair, you know, amount to all people. But then if transformation is going to come up because the State Theatre and the Playhouse are getting no money without reaching, it's the bottom part that comes up with ideas, you see. So you find that when you think of that, if that structure up there hasn't changed, then they're stagnant there, you see. But I mean, the State Theatre, for example, has much less money than before. Yes, but then... I mean, there were 700 employees until the shutdown and now there are 115 or something like that, which is still a lot of stuff. Yes. The State Theatre, for instance, now wants us to get down there and the money they are giving us to bring a show cannot pay a person for rehearsals and all that and all that, you see. Now, we are the creators of the plays that are going to be, you know, attract audiences there. But if the money doesn't reach the people who go to create plays there, you see, but if the oberees and all that get the 20,000 or whatever they get and it doesn't... They don't write plays, you see. They don't write plays. They write plays, but then we need fresh ideas from the people down there, you know. So when you write a play, for instance, it's like, for instance, you write something that is of value and then when it goes through them, then it becomes a good thing, of course, you see. But they are not... They are there. What you find there, it's not like in the old days where Barney Simon used to write. When Barney Simon used to do research, it was a habit, for instance. It's not Barney Simon who wrote it, but he was able to take the people down there, Pesha Niswa and the Bougainville, and then from there he developed everything with the money from that and then it became an international thing. So you find that all of it, like Arthur Fugard again, had to forge in PE John Garney and Winston and after that he did research and it became international. But they cannot go on. That's why now the market theatre is also not functioning well because they neglect that. Meanwhile, those people go down there and from there take a place and train people because fresh ideas come. So that process, to me, that's my idea, that process of going down to the people with fresh ideas and taking up their thing and making it something that can... That is what... So they cannot do a change because all the money goes to those people. I mean, to Aubrey's credit, really, to his credit, he is trying to stimulate theatre and giving groups the chance. But the problem is the quality of the development work is very slow. So, and when do you stop developing and turn the group that is nurturing into professional? And I think that's the big problem. And I think I'll go back to what Small said is that if people would spend more energy and time just giving a platform to someone in the theatre doesn't necessarily mean you're nurturing them. I mean, I know we sound like old fashions, but that's what Barney did. Barney Simon spent years working with people. He never took credit for it. He just worked. When I brought Strike the Woman to the market theatre, he sat with me for a week and we discussed the play. Some of his ideas I liked and some I didn't like and he was not offended. And he mentored me. Now, we don't have that intense mentoring and training. And people sitting day in and day out. I know that there is a sense in it, but there's just not that largesse of the spirit anymore. You know? We don't have it. It's everyone for themselves and egos and people, artistic directors, which is fine, but I know that you and I know that an artistic director is not there for his or her benefit. Primarily... It depends on the philosophy of the artist. Right, but it should be for the benefit of that theatre or that festival. Once the artist, and I'm sure you have it in Germany as well, once that director starts thinking of only promoting themselves, then the work stops. Then don't be an artistic director. Be a director. That's fine. Who has a problem with that? I'm a director. I want to promote my work. I've got a lot to say. Fine. But don't undertake the artistic leadership of an organization or a festival and then only think of yourself in promoting. But I mean, on the other hand, I mean, Barney Simon and the market theatre are a very special case. I mean, you cannot generalize this very special work, which is now very strongly related to the opposition to the apartheid regime. I mean, after 1994, I mean, the Barney Simon died in 1995, but I mean, the work of the market theatre in the second half of the 90s was apparently not, I mean... Yeah, well, they had bad leadership. And who really... I mean, it was from Kanye. It was one of the old guys. It was one of the old companies. But he's not an artistic director. He's an actor. But then you should know, before the market got money from the government, you know, Barney Simon was there, because they were not getting money from the theatre. And that's when, you know, they developed all these good things. But the soon end was to subsidize and all that. There was money coming from... Because it works on you. If you get money, then you tend to sit down. If there's no money, then you tend to work hard to expose the talent of the people. Or get out. You get the money. Yeah, you get the money. So you need to hear the claim from the market theatre, and then you make money out of that, minimum and all that. There's no other source, except you should develop people and good place like that thing. But as soon as they started funding them, I don't know how much they get now, and then they found people now, that's it. So it's a question of, oh, there's money after all, you know. So the question of coming with new place, which can go to Germany and all that, that's a real problem. So that thing is based on people who are there. Those who are returning, they were under the system where they used to go out, rehearse without money. Rehearsal, there was no money for rehearsals, like ball playing, all this. There was no money, you know. But everybody knew that if I can get to the market theatre, then I have a chance of getting to Germany and all that. That inspired people, you know. But as soon as there was money, then people were nice, you know. But also in those days, there was no access for black people, really, to go to institutions of higher learning. And those very institutions have not transformed. So a lot of black kids are going to university, theatre schools or whatever, and they're not producing South African artists, in my view. They are producing quasi-European actors. They don't perform in their mother tongue. They don't learn too much about African theatre, masquerade, performance style. It's all about ennui. Ennui? Ennui, you know, the French ennui. You know, maybe I'm not saying it the way you know. All right, Tata or somebody like that, Lemouches or something like that, you know what I'm saying? It's not about what are we learning from the rest of Africa, and how do we share, and how do we take up what's happening. And that's where the transformation should be, really. Because we're training actors not to do with South Africa. I'm not saying they shouldn't learn about European theatre and the great traditions, but there's a balance. So I don't think anything has really been transformed, myself. Yes, society's transformed. When Smool and I started working together, I could never get accommodation for them in Cape Town, because I was in Cape Town. Those things have transformed. The aspirations of young people have transformed. They really have. Because when we started working, there was no hope before. And there is hope now. And they do go on to institutions, whether they're doing drama or law or whatever. All these things are open to them now. And that's transformed. But the actual content is still the same. You better go.