LS_30109 aubrey sekhabi

The speaker discusses the concept of transformation in theater, focusing on the need for change in leadership, programming, and ownership to create a more inclusive and equitable environment. They reflect on the historical context of apartheid in South Africa and the role of theaters in fighting against the system. The speaker emphasizes the importance of providing opportunities for all artists, especially those who have been historically marginalized. They share their personal experiences advocating for diversity and representation in theater programming, highlighting the challenges faced in promoting black content and attracting diverse audiences. The speaker also discusses the financial aspects of running a theater and the need for support from funding bodies to ensure sustainability and equal opportunities for all theater practitioners. Let's discuss a little bit about theatre and transformation. So, what do you think, what is your idea of a transformation of a theatre? Or of a transformation of a state theatre? What is your first idea, and then what is it in practical terms? What is the idea, what is your idea of a transformation? If you take the theatre in the 90s, if you take the theatre today, to formulate it in an abstract way, what is that transformation? For me, I think it's a new way, and a different way, and a better way, and an equitable way of doing things. It speaks to, why are you talking transformation? It speaks to leadership, it speaks to programs. And of course, I think in this institution, programming, art is key, art rules, content is key. And so, what you give to the people, how you are programming, who does it service? I mean, South African history is like that. There was apartheid, you know, the majority of the people of this country were oppressed, there were various theatres, say the market theatre was out there doing work that was fighting the system, doing a lot of, what you call, protest work. But you must bear in mind, the market theatre, before it did protest work, it still did other things, it had nothing to do with protest. State theatre did particular work, they had companies, repertoire companies, so again, transformation also speaks to those things. How are you doing things now? How are you doing things in your new life? Are you doing things like before? Do you want to continue with the same companies that you had, which is opera, which is orchestra, which is drama, which is dance? Or do you level the playing field and say, you know what? There were so many artists in this country, so many, the majority of these artists in this country have been deprived, we want to open up opportunities for all of them. So we are going to make sure that you don't have to refer to our companies. We can have a discussion about the theatre. Should they be repertoire companies, should they be not? There's still that discussion that is looming these days. But for me, it solely speaks to, and not only solely, but particularly speaks to change of leadership and ownership, it speaks to change of programming and how you deal with your entire populace. So transformation speaks to that, and obviously speaks to, the policy is determined there, the policies that you draft will determine how you operate in the future. But I think if you don't transform the leadership, how do you think you will transform your program? Because it is the people that are at the forefront that will determine where the money goes, that will determine how the programs run. Say for example, when I joined the theatre, I joined the theatre in 2002, right? After the white paper saying, no, you must be receiving houses and all that, but the white paper has never said, you can't produce your own way. It has never said that. There's no way you can really left, right, and center. But other people interpreted it the way they wanted to do. The white paper was saying there's never going to be a rep company. Never going to have a permanent drama company and all that. And people, you're going to have a nationalized country where you can apply for funds. And that again has got its own challenges. If you remember, you asked me and we can talk about it. It's got its own challenges. But the white paper is just transforming things because things could not be the same. You know? When I got here, I thought, you know what, what is the point? I asked the boss in the first meeting that I attended here. I said to the boss, why have you employed me? What do you need an artistic director for? If you want to tell me that there is no artistic budget, all the money that we get from the Department of Arts and Culture, it's going to go to salaries and all that, people are going to rent. What is the point? Why do you need me? Why did you get me from my job where I was artistic director, where I had a company, a drama company, and was having a good time, and writing more plays and all that, to bring me here? To do what? Because I'm not a caterer. You know, if you want somebody to sit and take rentals and all that, I'm definitely not the candidate. You know? And yeah, and our board then was very bright. I think they were very relevant. And they understood what I was talking about. So, for this institution, I think we are among the first institutions to stay caterers. That's the money that we got from GAC. We started taking a percentage to give to production. There was no money to production. So I raised that question in my first meeting. You know? And then suddenly they said 10 percent. I fought for that. I fought a lot for that. Other people, I saw in the article that I gave you from the Sunday Times, James is saying, James Moore was artistic director of the market theater, the money they get from GAC goes to salaries and blah, blah, blah. So they depend on sponsorship. It's probably the choice that they made with their country. Nobody else has made that. And I would imagine that the playoffs would probably tell you the same thing. People don't raise money. But here, the money that we're using for production comes from GAC. Because I fought. I put my foot down. I said, I'm useless as an artistic director without that. And when I came here, I never promised you that I can raise funds. You know, I never said, I'm here and raise funds. I did raise a lot of funds from the lottery, from all the other areas. But I didn't say I can't. So that's not my specialty in terms of raising funds. You know? So then we allocated some of those budgets from there. James Moore. Hello, Mr. How are you? I'm good. All right. So then I said to Kansal, we have to do this. You know, I still raise money from lottery, from projects and all that. And then they allocated 10%. And I kept on fighting until they got it to 15%. And 5% from there to do marketing. And GAC gives us about, I think this year they're giving us about $47 million. So 20% of that to do artistic and marketing. It's not what we want, given that we've got six theaters to run here. It's crazy. But at least we can run the programs that we are running. You know? So the leadership has to be willing to change and transform. And actually when they brought me here, when I came here with the late Michael Lovegold, they had just closed the state theater. The state theater was closed. And then they reopened it. And then we came in as new management. And so at that time, because everybody was saying, hey, we are a receiving house, no longer some people's ideas of interpreting the white paper. You can't do this. You can't do this. Which is what I said, hell no. There's no way in the white paper that we can. And if I look at it now, I think it was the best decision. It was a good thing I fought for it, but it was the best decision taken by Kansal. Because in 2002, the bookings, the people that were coming with rentals, there was a lot of people. But you must bear in mind that you still had those ballet companies that had just been shut down from being repertoire companies. So when they left, they left as a unit, most of them. They still had money. They still had connections. They still had people at the banks and everybody that was giving them money. The opera companies. They still were like that. So people were still, the Africans, guys that grouped themselves together, they were making bookings. We were, I can't really give you specifics in terms of percentages, but we were getting a lot of bookings. So all of those same guys that were enjoying there, they were still the ones that were out there. That was part of my fight. Transformation cannot happen if we do not enable the other people that were not coming here. So we have to enable. When I was coming here, I was a champion for transformation. I was saying, we've got to change this place. We've got to have black content. We've got to have black content. We've got to have new South African content. For me, new South African content doesn't matter if it's black or white. Black content was no discussion. We have to have black guys on our stages, on our main stages, to build it. And, you know, the argument then would be, hey, Bamson's ticket sales. But if you don't do it in 2002, you're still in that position in 2015. You know, because you have to provide theater for those people that have never really been coming to the state theater. So you can be regular so that, you know, you don't want to do it today, tomorrow. You're not doing it. That particular person whose interest you have attracted, he comes here, there's nothing. So I want to make sure that there's always something. So I've always been fighting these forces, and I've been really fighting it. Hey, black shows. Black people don't come to the theater. You know, so I had to be thick-skinned. You know what? I want to do this. So it's always been a struggle in the early years, especially after our first part left. You know? So it's been a struggle. But if we had not done that, if you look at our program this year, our program is being filled by what we are programming. Because why? Now, 13 years later, the playing fields are almost level. We all have the same challenges with white producers and white actors. They still have an upper hand, white producers, because they still can get sponsorship. You know, they still have bodies in the banks and everywhere. We can still give them money to do things. You know, black people from corporate. Corporate still supports, but nothing about black in that scale, you know, especially when you come into the commercial space of theater and all that. So now we all have to wait for the national lotteries. We all have to wait for national arts council and provincial arts and culture council and all those other things. So we all go there to apply for funds, you know? So you no longer have those people that are coming and booking. So this year, if I look at our program this year, most of what is in that program is already programmed. Last year, we had a program called Indie Spotlight where we were giving independent producers a platform. We're paying them 25,000 rands. Trust me, it is nothing. It's fresh. It's 25,000 rands. We've had the best talent. I mean, none of our projects that we had here was quite as crazy. We had Tony Horroff. Tony Horroff was playing Sisulu in the movie Mandela. He's one of the big stars. He was with Dos and with Mariki. There were three. We're paying those guys 25,000 rands for two weeks. It's nothing. It doesn't pay one guy's salary there for the others. It's bad there. But then how the applications that we got. We did 20 plays. We did 20 plays for 20 years of democracy. But we're giving very little money. But the amount of people that came that wanted the platforms, we were giving them the platform and saying you can take 60% of the door. So also people can start to be reliant on state theater to get the audience. They must also have their own pool and bring them. But the amount of people that came there. So then you're taking 20 plays that you're doing in your theater, that you're programming. Over and above what we refer to as our main program. The big things that I buy and I co-produce and all those kind of things. So suddenly you're having 30 plays on your program. So you tell me, for you to manage 30 plays here, and 33 just concerts, that's what we do. 33 just concerts and 20 comedy nights. That's what we do with this little bit of money that we get from GAC. If we didn't have those things. It's not like we're paying people back and saying we're a fool. No, you can't do it. If we didn't have those things, we would be making headlines. They would be saying state theater is being, the artistic director is black, it's not functioning. They would forget that the same people must come and write. They would be saying that. State theater, black management is fucking it up. You understand? So people, we had to make, in terms of leadership, we had to really change. And we changed it. It has changed. It has changed. Anybody who tells you otherwise doesn't see, is black. Because now you are able to do, if you look, our program is diverse. And that is another thing with the state theater. That you are having six theaters. So you can have an opera in the opera theater. You can have a marigana in the drama theater. You can have an African fast in the arena theater. You can have Nathan Mandela in the momentum theater. You can have Steve Dyer with the Adelaide Ananas and all the top boys of jazz in the Rendezvous theater. For me, that's how every theater should roll. And we are in that direction. So for me, when you look at the programming, fully transformed. It's taken us a little bit of time. But I'm glad that we took this route. I'm glad that we fought. And I'm glad that the first council had already given us 10%. So when the other councils were coming, we were fighting for 10% is not enough. It's unlike when you are starting and saying give us some money. So the programming aspect of the state theater has transformed. We have to change it. But also we have to find a niche. What is it that we are all about? And now I'm sure we are very clear as a state theater that we are about doing new South African stories. So that's our passion. That's mostly our focus. And we are relevant. I mean, we've done just last year. Paul did protest. I did marigana. Marigana was there. I was scared. Paul was scared. He's still scared in protest. But we have to do it. We have to do it regardless of the state funding. Because our state and our constitution talks about freedom of expression. And then the president, he was talking at the ANC gathering. He was talking about actors being able to take what is happening and reflecting the rhythm and the mood of the time. The president's remarks were there. Our minister, Nating Pepper, was talking. They were nominating some representatives of past teams for theater and dance, I think two, three weeks ago. And when you talk to him, Paul, he can tell you more about it. He himself was saying that. So you cannot be saying, on the one hand, artist is your responsibility to talk about what's happening and all that, and then say you cannot speak of other things. So when he said that, I was thinking, yeah, it means that we are not wrong to talk about this. And it's really our role to tell the stories like that. So we've been doing those relevant stories. We've been a home for new work. And every time I hear about new work, I jump. I want new work. I want it here. I mean, this year we'll be bringing the imagined land with Craig Framon. Malcolm is directing. Neil Koppen is doing a newfound land. It's new. It's coming right here. We're having a voice that cannot be silenced about Ellen Perkins. It's opening right here. So I'm serious about saying we're doing new work. We've been relevant. We've done Ravunia Trial, I think one of the biggest dramas post-apartheid, biggest drama that came out of this, here by the artistic director of the State Theatre and the resident director of the State Theatre. We did Ravunia Trial. Kalushi. Mantolo you've seen. Mantolo. We are relevant. We did Rhetorical, the story of Thabunbeki and all that. Those are things that are really relevant. I did Silent Voice. Silent Voice is just about violence and all that, you know, and it's been the thing that's one of the critiques in Cape Town says, I have always known all my life that theatre can be there to evoke emotions of sadness and of happiness, and I didn't know that theatre can evoke fear. And I mean real fear until last night. So we've been under the skin of people with that work, but it's more relevant work. You've seen the work that Paul has been doing, a new work that Paul has been doing that we've been really doing here. It's been a place for new directors. We give them opportunities. Last year we did Forgiveness, which was an adaptation of Medea, Interest of African Content. We did, we did, we did. No, Forgiveness was an adaptation of Sheikhebas. Exile was an adaptation of Medea. Just purely new female directors. So we always try that. In our program we're going to launch a new director because we want new ways of doing things. Through the Indie Spotlight and the Women's Festival that we did last year, I was excited. I was seeing new voices, right? And then the theatre that these people were doing in the festival was completely different from what we do. It was like more slam poetry, hip, different. Because these young people are experimenting and they're doing this. So we are really a theatre for fresh ideas, and you can experiment here. And again it boils down to that thing that we were all these spaces, so we need to experiment. And I think that people, and we go, we search everywhere. I remember in 2003 or 2004, we had a group from Benda, in Shivasa, in a banana plantation. And all those people there. They were doing something called Chikwona, which was a mixed dance. Chikwona is a Benda dance, and they were mixing it with circus, they were working with the trees, and all that. Those people from right in Benda, those kids that have never been on a professional stage and all that, they came, they were in the drama. Why are you so quick? So you want to go there and experiment and get people that can be able to come here. And as a product of our African theatre, we've revived the classics. There was a year we've done Asinamali, Asinamali is dead, Asinamali is dead, strike a woman, you strike a rock. We did all that work in one year. Because we are also trying to put our foot down and say, hey, we are a changed theatre. It's not only about, because there's always been this thing, the stage theatre, people have seen the stage theatre, they see those costumes that you like, and they see ballet, and they see 18th century, and all that, but that's how it has always projected itself, when it was packed, you know. And so slowly you're trying to build, you can have jazz, you can have a jam-packed Huma Sikala concert. Then sometimes you find that people are coming for the first time, and you think, wow, it is so lovely. So the road ahead is long. The road ahead to build that Black Order that can really patronize the theatre is long. I'll give you an example. I did, I did, Suze Wanzi did. Directed the original cast. John Carney, Winston and Chona, many, many of them doing their lives, you know, the late Winnie Sittumo, all these guys in their late 60s, 70s, I'm the only baby there doing this work. We're coming here, we're performing here at the stage, so it's been to Gramstown, it's been to Cape Town, it's coming here at the stage theatre. We like performing the first week, so it's about 30%, it's 20%. In London, we like, we're going to the National Theatre. We're going there, it's a long way. We're going there, but the tickets are already going, you know, 40%, 50%. And I look at the guys that went to school with me. They're doctors, they're CEOs and all that. They are good guys. They are not dying, they are not coming here simply because the theatre is not, they have not been going to the theatre all the time. These are the guys that should be jumping to the opportunity of seeing John Carney and Winston Chona. So they're in that way we need to take theatre to the classroom, and we're starting to work on those programmes to get into the schools and all that, right? So that you can really inculcate it in the young people who are there, they can know that you can actually go there. So our school, we're tightening on our school's programme. But transformation is also not something that happens overnight. It's like we want to say we're too tired of talking about apartheid, we're blaming it on apartheid. Yes, we're blaming it on apartheid. We are in this state because of apartheid. And we're not going to, as long as we live, the people that have experienced it, we are going to say it. Maybe my daughter's grandchildren won't say that. But there's no way in which I can avoid the fact that apartheid has fucked up people, it's fucked up the theatre, it's fucked up the industry, it's fucked up the country. So we're still recovering. It's far from over, but people that want to look smart and think they're progressive and all that, you can't always blame it on apartheid. So who must we blame it on? Who made sure that somebody like me, who wrote his first play when he was 15 years, and lives, I'm sure, decades away from the state theatre, went to showcase his first work at the market theatre? Not at the state theatre. Why was it there? What other reason was there? It was simply because it was the regime that was there, that had divided us, that had put... Why are we having this conversation, you and I, today? We are having this conversation because of apartheid. If there was no apartheid, there couldn't have been... We wouldn't be talking transformation in this session. Maybe we'd be talking about change of strategy, change of approach. We'd be talking about those things, new leadership that's going to give us... We'd be talking about those things, but we wouldn't be talking transformation because we're transforming from one system to another. We're transforming from an oppressive system to another. But, of course, we can't always make it a stumbling block. We've got to fight through it and say, you know what? These oppressive roles that have been there, we, the new people, we're saying we don't want them anymore, but we must put programs in place, so we must not talk, talk, talk, talk, and not put programs that can be better. So we are doing that, and programming in the state theatre is really key in terms of diversifying, in terms of trying to attract. And we're still a long way to where we want to be, but then the progress that we've made, I think in the past six months, has been amazing. I'm glad that you came here. If you came here last year, January, or February, you'd be thinking, oh God, what's happening? But you came here when we've been able to re-engineer the things, and we have really re-engineered it with the team ourselves. Guys, they say I'm going to be acting, things must change. We must see growth in the audience and all that. So we're re-engineering those things, and I was telling you that we're still looking at other ways of doing this. And then suddenly you come here, you bounce from one theatre. I don't know the feeling you got, but I would imagine that in terms of what you saw, you got a feeling that the state theatre is alive. You didn't feel like, wow, you know, you got a feeling, and we're still thinking, we're still a long way to where we want to go. So that is why. So I think leadership, and then you look at the leadership that has been here. You know, they have Michael, Michael Lovegrove, who has been in the theatre before. I came in as artistic director. I was like 32 years, turning 33 that same year. I was still very young for this big thing, but at that time I had experience. I've been artistic director for eight years in the Northwest. You know, I've been artistic director for 21 years, like solid, without a break. I'm probably the only one in the new distance station that has had that luxury and that opportunity and that privilege to occupy that position. But I'm here. And then we spent time with Michael, and then we're still struggling, because you can't just ten, over ten things at the same time. And then Michael passed on, and I was 18 for 18 months. Then again, the actual transformation happened, because then I employed the HR manager, who's a woman, black, facilities manager, a woman, black, even though we still had a black facilities manager. So you started to see that, even though with Michael's time, you're starting to see that change in leadership, so that the leadership and the management of the state theater is not completely, it's not really white. You know, you had the management that was integrated. So as you can have integrated ideas, you know, so it has to change that. The boards, who's on the board? So it starts right up there. Who's on the board? Are you just having a completely white board? No, you're having a board of good white guys, good black guys, some of them are new and all that. So that has to filter down, filter down to the top management, filter down to the senior executives and all that, senior management, your HODs, and now, in that, you're having now, you're starting to see a balanced management. You're still having down there people that are doing, you know, your general workers and all that, a lot of them are still black. So you still need to push up, to employ a lot of qualified young graduates. I want to get, so that is our next move now. You know, to get young people that are qualified. Let them come back in time. When you have people that are retiring, that have been here, because also the other thing that I think happened, but when they closed the place and opened it, because transformation was knocking on the door, this thing has to change. So a lot of the black guys that were here for longer, some of them were getting lifted up and all that, but some of them are retiring, you know, getting to a retiring age. So now you want to give access to those young people that are out there, that are graduates, that can bring fresh ideas. So we need fresh ideas. So that the transformation element can continue. So that transformation, because transformation is not in, it's not today, tomorrow. It's continuous, and it's going to happen for a very long time, until you're really having a very mixed theater. In Pretoria, looking at the state theater, once you know you've got Africans' work, you know that it's got a following. You've got a lot of Africans in Pretoria. I think you've got a lot of Africans in Pretoria than you have anywhere in the African continent. Just in Pretoria. You know? And then you have in Cape Town, everywhere, but they are all here. So you have a market there. So I can't come there as an artistic director and overlook that. That would be naive. So you've got to make provision for that. You've got to make provision for music. You've got to make provision for, oh, so you have a more diverse, I think we also run a more diverse program, because you have five theaters, you have the large value of six theaters. With the other theater, we're going to be not using it anymore, because we're going to get TUT, we're talking with TUT to come and use that. It's an intimate theater, but it's a very small theater. Very small. Yeah, TUT, the university. They're going to be here. We're going into partnerships with them so that they could be here. And so when you're talking, I see the theater having transformed in that regard. But you see, we got, what, 47 million this year. I think last year it was 42 or so. You can check in our annual report. But out there, people think, hey, State Theater is getting 47 million, or we're sitting on 47 million worth of production money. So education is important. Like the book that you are writing is all important. So people understand that you have 47 million, we're raising about 25 million ourselves. From the packing, from the ticket sales, from the theater rentals, from the office block rentals, and our other facilities out of the restaurants. So we have to raise 25 million for us to survive. So you add it there, then you're suddenly running, you have about 60-something million, and then they give you money for capital expenditure, and then you're running about an 84 million rent organization. But in essence, the DEC is giving you 40. But even with that 84 million, let's take out the 60 million for capital expenditure and talk about the 25 million that we've raised at the top and the 47 million rent that you get at the DEC. We are not getting 20% of those figures combined. We are only getting 20% of what you get from DEC. Otherwise, this place won't be functional. It won't be functional. So our next slide, funding becomes key. You have the lottery that's supposed to give us funding. You apply, they can give you or not give you. You have the National Arts Council that's supposed to be giving you funding. But what I see, these things, when we give them white paper and all this, we are faced with a set of challenges. Now we have a different set of challenges. Now these organizations are matured. Now we are matured into our freedoms. 20 years, 21 years into freedom and democracy. Most people think the way they are now, and say, really, what is the, why are the problems? And then you see people apply to the National Arts Council, right? They fund them. They've got committees that fund them. And then they fund them sometimes very little money that doesn't give them enough time to do good things. Or the work that they do, they would be, we don't think, matches the standard that we want to maintain and keep in the theater. So somehow, there has to be a serious conversation. Somehow, even though they're doing, even though we do call outs for plays and all that, these institutions have to be involved. So that we can be saying, yeah, we want this play, we want this play, we want this play, it's going to cost this much, this much. We want to appoint this drama tech there. Because the NAC funds and leaves it there. They don't have drama tech. Then the expertise are sitting right here, not there. So I think we need to look at our funding model. At least we'll go out there and complain sometimes and think that they don't have, maybe they don't necessarily have access. We open the door. But then, because there is no money. How can anybody who comes here to me and say, I've got budget, I want the venue. Without a blink, you've got the venue, it is available at that time. You see, so the funding model, when we're talking, again, so we need, I don't want to call it the second transformation. You know, this transformation is continuous. We need to look at the funding models for these things. And you can't shut them down. And you can't, if the state theater will always want this amount of money to really keep it running. We spent about, what, close to five to six million on lights. You know? And water and electricity. You have to pay, otherwise they will shut you down. And they also, the city, they want their money because they've got their own challenges in the whole city. So that money goes to the maintenance of the place. It's huge, right? The technicians to run all these places. You've got about 36 people, 36 technicians running the venues. Without those technicians, a proper professional production cannot come in and be happy. So you have to be competent in that. The smallest even department is the artistic department, which is supposed to be your core department. But we're trying to change that because it's just, we're just waiting like dogs for an eye on my boys and our boys and girls and our guys. Because it's really, we're just over doubling up because we've got very little resources to be able to do that. But then it's putting a strain on a lot of our guys. I see a lot of our guys, you can see, they're like, and all that because it's just throughout. There's all these many places that you want to bring in, you must see. And that's just one section. I'm saying, perhaps we do 33 jazz concerts. So in essence, which are the main acts and the opening acts like you've seen. So in essence, a lot of the jazz musicians in the country would be on our stages. That's accessible. Transformation speaks to those things. It speaks to access. That's access. A lot of the comedians have been on this stage. That is access. So it speaks to access. People must have access to these facilities. But then that should not be at the expense of quality. So it must not be at the expense of quality. And at the same time, you must also understand that there's other people that are not where other works are from a quality point of view. But you must make an opportunity for that and you must also pronounce that it's development or it's still in development or incubation and all those kind of things so that you can give access. But if you want to uphold a seriously professional theater, the quality has got to be uncompromising. It must be non-negotiable. And that is why we tend to work that is non-negotiable. And of course, in South Africa, you still have the politics of white, black. They are not going away anytime soon. Do white directors get more opportunities? Why white directors do black plays? So you're still having those things. Why don't they just tell their stories? But I don't think, for me, I fully agree with that. I think that anybody who must be in a free country where your constitution speaks about those things, anybody can do the story that they want to do. Anybody must do the story. If I want to go and write about EWB, nobody should stop me from that. Nobody must tell me because I'm not Afrikaner. EWB, that right-wing organization, their leader just passed on a couple of years ago. They had the swastika. They had some Nazi mentality. If I want to write about the Nazis, you can't tell me I'm not German. I must not write about the Nazis. It's my choice. So I think we're still in those. And also because of the nature of this country where it comes from. So those things, again, they should be allowed to... There should be those discussions. I also have seen a situation whereby, when I speak to Africans, playwrights and all that, when I bring in work in the theater, the list of who is doing it is the list of my problems. I look at the work and I think, wow, this work is great. Africans, it appeals to me, I think it can have an audience and it's really good and the artist is good regardless of his language. The work that you must bring to the theater. Afrikaners, what they did, and I've told them this so I can tell you, in their conference, I think either they got very scared or, you know, I don't know why they should have been very scared because there was nothing to be afraid of. So they started, when these organizations changed, I think they showed these organizations, you know, these organizations belong to the people of South Africa. So I feel that they went to, they formed their own festivals, you know, Kaka, NKA, Art Club, Indie Boss, all these things, and went to New Jersey. So nobody kicked them out. So they went there, all right? But in the festival sector, it's not enough. There is five days without the lights, like four lights, a classroom with no air con and all that. So it's not really their thing that they want. So now I think they realize that they have to go back to the theater because for starters, we don't care that they are Africans or not. We care about where the work is appealing. Can the audiences come? Can we integrate, you know? Can we build and use our African theater where people are going to go there and say, I want to go and see a new African play? It may not happen tomorrow, but then we need to build it so people can go there and start to enjoy it. So if you want to talk about, so you have cohesion and all these things that you always claim, that's where you need to start. So I remember there was one year in my program, most of what was in my program was Africans. I think 2011 or 12. I've done a trilogy of Africans, Lod, Babel, Lod. Lod we did it in some property of ours there. Bethesda, we did it in a public swimming pool in Hadfield. Lod, Bethesda. Babel, we did it in Anipolis, in Ethiopia. That year we were doing a Rika for career, educating Rika. Rika, which was done in Africa. And Dinzakhna Mori, I think it's also an adaptation. Mori's Wednesday or something like that, about the guy who had cancer and was coming down. I think it's an adaptation. So you see for me, that year I've been to 50% I thought wow, 90, I think it's important. So we did that. So for us, a lot of guys, Paul does not understand African, but I understand a little bit, because I'm a Pretoria boy. Also theater. I watched in Slagaren, not Slagaren, in that festival in France, Avignon, we watched a Dutch play with French subtitles. I don't know if you remember, we saw that play one time. It was theater, we still follow. It was at the Arc of Joan, Joan of Arc, something like that. I don't know if you went to see that one, you were there that year. Yeah, French subtitles, they were speaking Dutch. So for me, it's one method. So I've seen that, I've also been seeing Africana, maybe transgressive, they went there, they should have just continued their culture in the theater. Also made a serious contribution to South African theater. They go to the festivals, sometimes I find myself being the only black guy in the auditorium. Right? Or with my producer, my land producer, the young man. So that took us right to there. They suddenly took themselves out of the system. But now it's okay, we're starting to talk to them. And also sometimes they have an idea that you won't like their play. So a lot of Africana guys, after they've had a meeting with me, they think, wow, that was so easy. We thought it was going to be difficult. Because also in politics, you find that people push agendas, nobody is going to do like plays, blah, blah, blah. So people don't know. And those things will help them in a democracy, in a new transformation, in a new dispensation, people don't know. I had a meeting, I think a couple of weeks ago, with the guys that want to do the Awans, the Guma Awans, the African musical Awans. Those guys came here, our meeting didn't last long, we wanted them, I wanted the Awans, and they were quite shocked that I wanted the Awans. So I didn't understand why they thought we wouldn't want the Awans. But it's a state of mind. A state of mind that exists in people, Africanas, is that, is that, is that, and English people, black and white, if I could put it like that. And we are artists, we shouldn't even be thinking like that. Artists shouldn't give a damn. Because they still, the Africana artists still feel sidelined. By who? They are sidelining themselves. Because we go through the very same thing. Sometimes we feel that they get preferred. Sometimes we also feel that, African people are getting preferred. So sometimes they sideline themselves. They should be in the space. They have an audience, they've created that audience over the years, they should continue that audience. It's just that young guys that are coming out of university, they come here, we interact with them, they love the country, we are excited about some young African directors, they have this voice, it's really good. So those things excite us, because our thinking is completely different. You even look at the market theater. A lot of English, or liberals, are pretty much unhappy. But I don't think that they must be. They must engage in the market theater, artistic director, and all this. But because in their heads, they are thinking they are sidelined. You know? They are not. It's just here. I think as we are in this process, there also needs to be a mind shift. So Africans need to free themselves. You know, white Africans, they need to free themselves. And say, you know, we are going to do this. There has been a time whereby the main festival programs only to white people. But, I apply to the main festival, I do put my work on the main festival. But also, we are not necessarily equal. There are directors that are senior, that have been there, that are bankable, you know, you look at those things to produce work. But there are other people that just want to come from nowhere and be on the main festival. It's not possible. Some of us have been on the fringe for like eight years before we could even be on the main. You know? But we wanted to get to the main festival. So we may continuously make appearances. So you have these conversations, black and white. You know? And sometimes we also feel that, yeah, but there's not enough representation on the main festival. But those conversations must happen in a democracy. They will always be there. But the problem, the massive thing that I think is required today, Africa, to make sure that this transformation is visible and can do, is funding. Funding sucks. I'm glad that GEC gives us this amount of money. They give us 47 million rands. To change the building. So in that regard, they are doing their bit. Because it's not only us. It's a whole lot of us. And you must know, they're looking at museums, Hemp Day 5, all those kind of things. Even though we will always push for more, one more, one more. It doesn't look like it's coming in the next two, three years. But then your funding bodies need it about time we look at them with GEC and everybody and say, hang on. National Arts Council really, we need it. And then there has to be close ties with us. With the institutions. At the moment, they even say we're not going to give institutions money. So who are they going to give their money to? To go and do which play? Where? And get which support? Artistic support? Blah, blah, blah. And you know, where? Because then you can get 200,000 from Lothar when you come and look at your play and it sucks. It's not going to come to us. Because it sucks. But another time, the money is no longer there. Because the guys are really struggling. Some of the artists are really struggling. You know, when they do this production, they want to write it, they want to earn while they're writing it and produce it. But I think one of the key things if they are with the institutions, you know that you've got say 10 million or 5 million and they can be saying, we want 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Why don't you look at it? But you need to make sure that the quality is good, the work is actually seen. Yeah. The African work? African work. That was one of the few ones that happened. But also again, we had a call-out. We sent out a call-out. And I think very few African producers. So the one that we programmed, I think, is probably the only one that submitted about five programs to us and we chose one. All the time. We've never had a program without African work. So we program Africans' work anytime. It's not even an issue. We no longer see it as an issue for us. You've been talking a lot about the communication around the theater and about the programming. What about in the interior of the theater? What about when it becomes, according to you, the transformation apparent on the level of the staff, for example? When do you notice it in the interior? Well, I think you say, for example, our management, right, in the State Theater. It's completely balanced. It's, if I can say, let me see, who do I have there? I've got Bjorn, I've got Gunway, right? I've got about four white managers, right? Our equity is cool. Four white managers and about seven or eight black managers. So our equity is proper. It's representative. Because also, of course, you must look at the demographics. Because the majority of black people in the country, you can't have that situation where the majority is being ruled by the minority. But also you want quality. You just don't want to push people and all that. Affirmative action, which is legislated, but you also need to, in that affirmative action, you need quality. You need people that can do the job. You need people that are qualified. So for us, management, it's well represented. It's really well represented in terms of the demographics of this country. So that has been another process of transformation that we've gone through. So at this point in time, I'm happy. Obviously, we'll be reaching more, but it's not worrying where we are today. On which level do you have still employees who are working here as well? The 494 or the 490? What do you mean? On which level? For example, some technicians or some drivers were employed here already. Older workers today were employed here still at the end of the 80s or beginning of the 90s. But at which level? You have guys that came here as cleaners. They are venue stage managers. Definitely. There were people that came here that were not stage managers. They wouldn't dream of coming close to the project. They are running the venues. Some of them are running the venues. I mean, we had an old man who used to be a shipper. At one point, he was running our bar. So there has been that movement. Obviously, a lot of the guys that are waiting on our stages have been here. Guys that are operating our fly bars, our machines, our lifts. Some of them, when they got here, were nowhere close to those things. But now, we are relying on them to deliver that service. So there has been, again, there has been that movement. Of course, some of the guys that are drivers have been drivers before. Some of them are still drivers. But you must also bear in mind that the stage theatre was most bought in 2000 or 2001. So it was closed down, shut down. Everybody giving their money, sent home. So these people had to reapply for the jobs. So they reapplied for the jobs. So that, in itself, I think was good because then it could almost start on a split stage. Even where we are now, we have a new board. A completely new board. We don't have a CEO. So you're almost getting like, for me, I'm feeling like there's a shift. I don't want to call it the second transformation. But then, we are changing gears again. We have completely new people that are coming in. We are giving them the business. And they will also start to... I'm sure after a year or six months, they will be knowing this is where we are going with the institution. How was the theatre working between 1994 and until the close down? Was it completely unchanged? The structure to what it was before? In my... I mean, in 96 or 97, they had Hugh Masekela as the deputy CEO here. You know, in 2000, before they shut it down, they had Jeremy Fooking as artistic director. And the State Theatre used to also run the Windy Brow Theatre. They had Walter Chakela coming and they put him at the Windy Brow Theatre. It was different. But I think, inside, it was still changing. I think, even for us, I brought in a play here from the North West in 1996 or so. It still felt very white. And the companies? The companies were still here. Drama company, opera company were still here until 2000. I think, drama company, were they here until 2000? I'm not sure. But around 96, I think... They were here in 98 and they were still performing. I think they were here until that time. And the opera company? And the opera company. I may need to verify that for you. But I think they were still here. And you see, the thing was, we didn't even care about the State Theatre. You know, we didn't care. It was like, ah, State Theatre is like that. It's business. We isolated ourselves from it as well. It isolated itself from us. I started dealing with the State Theatre in 96. I came here, I performed here in about 92, 93 in a multi-racial play called Bright Light is with Nick and Wilson written by Paul Slaby Lips, directed by Lara Foote. It was still tough. You know, here in the 90s, when I was an actor, it was tough. 96, when we came here, we were performing for a mainly black audience in the arena. I think we only met with a... Peter Taylor only came. The people here, we never even saw. We never even saw these people here. So, in a sense, they were holding on. They had to be shut down to change. And there, those are the operas in your program? Yes, yes, we do. There's a company here that was Black Pie and they call it now the Houghton Opera. Yes, we do. And they see, they see the challenge about it, the funding. Sometimes they book venues, book venues, but they don't come through and they don't do it. But yes, we do have... Opera, we do ballet here as well. Which ballet company? FABT, they do bookings, they come here. South African Ballet Theatre. From Cape Town? No, from Jove. It used to be based here, it's now boasted at the Jove Theatre. It was civic? It was called a civic, yes. And as well in Cape Town, the civic ballet? There's an opera company in Cape Town. Cape Town Ballet, I think there should be. I've seen the Cape Town Ballet in 2006 or something, 2008, in Grand Falls. No, Cape Town Ballet, yes, it's still there. So, that was, I mean, the director who left in 2000, you said there was there were several changes of the head of the theatre between 1990 and 2000? 1996, I know in 1996. Also because our pension came here around 1995-1996, because it was Hugh Masekela. And Hugh Masekela we knew, right? And there was also, I think when he was here he was working with Alan Joseph, the late Alan Joseph. Alan Joseph headed the marketeers at one point and also headed the civic at one point when he came here. He was here and obviously, you know, he had a story with pension funds, also invested in that, and he lost a lot of money. And also I think that, this is my view, I think that there was a good opportunity for the minister to shut them down. Also because the transformation was not happening as fast as they wanted. So they had a lot of excuse. But yes, then, because I know in 2000 Jerry was appointed artistic director. I remember having a conversation with Jerry Mufugin, he's now the artistic director of Pop-Up Syndrome for me. And he was asking me, I said, I don't think I'm applying for that job. Take it. And he took it, they worked six months, they closed them down. And in 2002, I applied, I got the job. So Jerry was here as well as artistic director, but he didn't last long. You know, because then, because you can only influence programming at that level. You won't influence it anywhere else. And once you have an artistic director, if he's not bringing that work, he's not going to bring that work. What are you going to do to him? You're going to give him a hundred reasons why he's doing what he's doing. So that's the nice thing about being an artistic director. So, basically, what happened here in 1997 or 1998, is in your view really completely different to what started to happen here from 2002 on? Oh, completely. Oh, yeah. Most definitely. Far, far from. Yeah. Completely. How would you characterize the programming until 2000? The programming until 2000, I think that I still think that until 2000 I remember that maybe Jerry did one Pansola play. I think he did a couple of things, but I think it was more concert. You know, he must have done like Ruka Kamaloke, I think even Brenda Farsi, you know, I think even the Latin Bullies. But I don't think that it had I don't know how many black plays independent going into the arena theater. You know, or the Momentum, I know I brought something from the North West which they didn't pay for, which I paid for. That I brought into the Momentum theater, which we paid for everything. They only gave us the space. Accommodation, paid year, salaries, everything that we brought here. And so, I don't remember No, we loved the theater. So I don't remember seeing anything that was making me want to come and see a play here. I was going to the market theater. Because I was seeing more than anything. And besides the concert that Hugh Masegala brought and changed, the programming still remained ballet, opera, you know, it still remained white. Oh, they did things like they did some African, they did things like you know, so what is that play that they did? I remember Ernst Jagger was playing in it. They did some Soyinka, I think it's some Soyinka, or that. But they were still trying. There were times when they were really trying. But it doesn't come anywhere close to what we are doing. Since 2002. Nowhere close to that. What was the motor of this transformation? Of the clothing? Was it was there cultural, political actors? I mean, there were what who what was the reason to close it down? It was mismanagement, I think. The official reason. The official reason was that they had invested, I think they lost about $24 million of the pension fund to some scheme that they invested there. And it never came back. It was like a fly-by-night pyramid. Right? And I think that gave the minister you know because what could have happened, they could have just fired the CEO and a couple of guys and kept everybody there and given them more money and all that. But they didn't. They shut it down. Because but I think, and that's me, and I've always been saying this, I think because it was not changing. They still had repertoire companies. In 2000, I think they still had repertoire companies. But imagine that the white people was adopted when? Around 1996. So it took them four years to really change when the white people was very clear that you should be shutting them down. Yeah. So how much was the budget for the state theatre before the closing and then how much was it after? Oh, I haven't checked that. But I think before the closing, I can verify that for you, but I know that they were getting close to about 60-something million rands. We're getting like 47, only now. And we're coming from there's just been increasing. So with 6% and 5%, at one point I think we're getting about 34 when I got here. Or 32. So they really cut it. Part of that money that they cut in the state, they took it to the NEC. Part of that money was I think around 60 million, about 80 million. So was it on the state level or was it on the ministerial level? What was the role of the local authorities, of the provincial authorities at that time? Did they mingle anywhere? Did they play a part, play a role in the closing of the theatre? Or was it mainly the state, the minister who closed it down? It was mainly the state, the minister. The minister, Dr. Ben Nguvan is the one who shut it down. And what were the role of the workers unions, for example? What was their role? What was the reaction? I'm sure there was. But you know when they come to you and say they're shutting you down, what can your union do? They say you're shutting everything down. You're closing shop. You're all going home, giving your package. The union, I don't think they can do much. Was there a huge campaign by the staff, by the theatre staff, for example? They tell me, the day they called them into the opera theatre, they were very, very demotivated. They were very sad. They were shocked. You know, they were shocked. Most of them were working low positions so I think the money that they even got was not enough. Some of them had been here for quite some time. But I don't remember chanting. I don't remember fighting for it. We were quite happy when we had the news. It was about time to start that thing in place. That's what we were saying from where we were. It was almost, it was like about 700 or more people. Employees. We have 112 now. What was the reaction of the media at the time? The media, what happened? I'll imagine, I don't know. I didn't care. I'll tell you. I didn't care. When the theatre was shut down, because I'll tell you why, because I come from Sosha Mgube, not very far from here. I never had access in this place. So in a way, I was also very bitter about this place. So it didn't do nothing for me. So I was happy that they were starting it up first. But at the time, I mean, we were discussing the product, the issue of access. I mean, on one hand, you have certainly developed like audiences, but for example, there was touring before. You are not touring anymore. So there is, as well, a decrease of access on another level. Yes, yes. That is true. That's what I was saying. They had companies that can tour. Right? The major problem with touring today, it's fun. For me to take Marikana with 50 guys to Cape Town, or to the township, we don't even have a kumbi here at the State Theatre now. We have to rent a kumbi. We don't have a kumbi. A bus. We don't have a bus. We don't have a bus here. So we don't have those things. We don't have those luxuries. The community halls, though, are not at that level. Because, again, apartheid. They didn't care what they were giving us. They were giving those things with no acoustics and all that. If you were to tour and do city halls, it means that you're still going to that very same people who have access. So you're not opening access. So because you don't have that, we've done, last year or two years ago, GAC supported what they call the touring venture. They gave us money to tour with. We toured with a touring car, we toured Silent Voice, we toured Vampire. We were going to Whitbank Theatre, in Northwest, in Mabana. We wanted to go to P.E. The year before, in 2010, during the World Cup, the minister then supported township tours. So then we took Waza Albert, Mandolo, the girls in their Sunday dresses, what was the fourth one? Egoidi. But then that one, those ones, we were able to do them in a church. We were able to do them in a classroom and all that. So it's happening in bits and pieces, but it's coming back. There's clearly willingness from GAC. They realize that. The touring venture is ongoing now. I know that James was touring this year to P.E. East London and all that. They didn't give us money this year because of some other... They were not happy with us, I think, so we will get money. So now there is that lake of touring. So now we are no longer lamenting that there was no touring because now the Department of Art and Culture is making those special funds to be able to get work out there in the streets. Was there, for you, a concept of the transformation? Or was it... I mean, was there an idea behind it? Is the concept of the transformation the white paper of 1996? Yes. Are there... It was mainly, I would say, it was, you know, about all, it was mainly access. Because to access the APS at Cape, I still think at Cape it's not fully accessible, but I don't know. I'm not in Cape Town. But I know other places in Cape Town at Cape. At Cape, there are what do they call it, NAPEG, Napao Performing Arts Council. Free State. That was practically impossible for black people. So the reason why they sort of leveled that is that we should have access. That's why they also introduced the receiving powers aspect, so that anybody who wants to go there can apply to NAPEG. And go there. In theory it's like this, but in practical in the practical side of it that the arts are so underfined that it's still a theory. Yes, but access exists there, you see. So access, there are programs, you know, there are a lot of programs that you put up, like for example for us, you're going to know. In 2004 I introduced what you call 52 seasons. 52 companies performing for 52 weeks, the whole year. And then we took 12 productions that they had to perform for a month. But then most of those people, that's when I was opening the doors. A lot of those producers were black, even though we still had one or two white guys there. But then again, you know, in the beginning when you spoke about development and all that, white people never really saw themselves anywhere in the US. So for development programs, they wouldn't really apply to it. They didn't see themselves at that level. They saw themselves at another level. When you talk community theater, white people don't think they do community theater. They see community theater as township theater or as black theater and all that. So sometimes I always say maybe they don't have the community. But in community theater, it means that theater that has just been done by ordinary people at the community level, whether it be the black community or the white community or an Indian community, it's community theater. That theater that you necessarily, you separate it from professional theater and all that. So I think those things will change. Even though we feel underfinanced because we have to keep this building like this. You see our building is still well kept. It's an old building. This building opened 23 May 1981. Right? With some German architects as you can see. I'm sure this reminds you of that home. And you can see even some of the equipment that we have here. German equipment, but you know, that is old. That is starting to change. But it's really well designed and well built. You can still talk about access and access of people coming in, but it looks like this fortress. And all those countries are still amazed because I work here. There's things that you could do now, but I still think the way it is, it's well thought of. It's well planned. It's just everything that you need in here for the theater just get fit inside the theater. But the concept of saying we'll also receive, as I said to you, I didn't say you can't produce. And if you did not produce, we'd be in the shit now. We'd be having serious problems. I tell you, what would we be having now? So, if we didn't produce, it means that January, February, March, we'd have nothing. Because we wouldn't have anything. Everything that you've seen here is what you're producing. So we'd have absolutely nothing. And our main theater is being booked by the Idols. Idols. You know, the way they're looking for the opera theater. We are lucky this year that Idols has booked a couple of months. It's a musical. Yeah, they come there and sing. It's a competition of young people. They're looking for the next star. It's an American thing. So they do it here. So if we didn't have that, you must know that when I got here, we did Phantom of the Opera. Phantom of the Opera came here, I think, 20 weeks or something like that. We did TED Talks. We did things. You know, we do these operas and all that. Then they build the 1,900 seats at the theater. They took everything, they go there. It means business sense. You know, you can say, oh, there's 600 seats more. 600 seats more for a 350-rent ticket for any producer. You know what? If I pay myself, I'll go there. You see? So they moved. So then we started having a big gap. When I got here, opera used to do like four weeks or five weeks, even though they had big gaps in between, right? You know, they had to rehearse and all that. Opera now, they are lucky to do four performances that has an audience. The audience is older. It's called ballet. When I got here, they used to do four weeks. Like that. Now, they limit their performances. You know, in a week, they'll do maybe Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Why? Because that audience is changing. A young South African audience, black or white, might not necessarily suit about ballet. So that's where we need to re-educate and train and all those kind of things. So things have changed from where they come from, and I've seen them change. I've seen a lot of, from a lot of bookings, to what we have now. I'm sure now the rentals that we have, I can count them. You know, and like proper, serious rentals, not when you have a high school bookings concert. Proper rentals, they are not more than 20. They are not more than 50. When I got here, it used to come. The space, you still fill up the space, but also, this is a beast. It eats up content like you cannot believe. Before you know it, something is over. You know, and you need to open something new, you know. So there has really been a serious change. So where we are, it gives us a good reason to want to be producing a lot more, because also we can have the expertise in this institution to develop the work. That's why I'm saying I'm going to be doing three dramatics, because we need to develop more work. We need more hands now to work on different people, because I can't do it all by myself. I still need to go and shop around and buy. I also travel. I'm probably one of the artistic directors who is less traveling. You don't think that the core company of actors, even if it's only six or eight or ten, would do would be as well an advantage to continuously perform here? They're cool, but who? You know, it's the reason why they... I think that in the provinces it could work. I don't... If you do it, you must be proper. You know, you can't... If you do it, you must have like 12. You know, you must have your normal structure. Female lead, male lead, supporting blah, blah, you know, supporting subsidiaries and you must have it like that. You know, I think that we should be having a South African theater company, like the Bay One, that should be housed in the state theater. You know, I think that that maybe takes you on a two-year contract. That takes the best of the best, top guys, but it means you must pay top dollars, because if you want the top actors who are on television, who are earning 80,000 rands a month, 120,000, that's a million, that's a CEO's salary. So that's what makes it impossible. So you may not necessarily get your top, top big guys. It means you're going to be dependent on your... on your students. To do both. Yeah, but when they come when... Our problem, the actors that are on TV, when they come here, they want to earn 15,000 rands per week. And the problem with that, that they don't bring you 15,000 audiences. Well, they don't earn this much in Germany, either. Yes. If they do theater, they know that they earn that. But here, they want 15,000. 15,000 rands a week is a lot of money for us. 60,000 rands for that month. For somebody that's not going to guarantee you... It's not... Denzel will guarantee you the opera house full for 30 days, if you have to come here. So our guys don't necessarily guarantee you that. And then because they're big stars, some of them have got experience, some of them are really good. They want to be paid what they think. And because they've been exploited for so long, they want to be paid what they think they're worth. But then that does not necessarily translate and bounce on seats. So it's done your budget. If I'm paying two guys one of my budget, the budget for what we're doing this year, a lot of... Our budget for Fishes of Hope is 250,000. 250,000. Two big stars from TV on that thing. They want 15,000 rands a week. There's 120,000 rands a week. Impossible. So the rep companies, I think that maybe we're not necessarily ready now. We still need to deal with a whole lot of things. And it's not something that is fastest. But then also it's who can fund it. You need the funding. Where is the funding going to come from? Then you're having 12 extra people that you must pay on a weekly basis. How many places can they give you per year? You know? If you think about it. But then same people, you don't want to see the same people six times a year. You want to spread it. In the provinces where they don't have theaters, maybe you can have a company of 12 guys that helps with job creation. But if 12 guys are only going to have it for a year and change, it's OK for young people. So I'm not totally against it, but I don't think it's our solution. I don't think it's our solution. In Germany, you have a lot of companies, who employ 15 actors and perhaps a couple of guests. And they are working very successfully. It's a big quality in a company. They know each other very well. They have confidence together. They develop together over the years. Like I said, I'm not totally opposed to it, but I don't think it's a solution to the challenges that we are facing now. Because as it is, you're having a lot of people wanting access. So if you're giving them access to 12, 16 people for a whole year, 12 months. But I mean, a core company wouldn't exclude that you co-produce with other companies. I think it talks to money. The core company will cost you 3 million Rands of the artistic budget. Unless you have 3 million Rands without production budget. Yes. Was it easier for the market theatre during the period of transformation? I mean, seeing that the state theatre was closed, it was probably much easier for the market theatre because they had this legacy of being an anti-apartheid theatre compared to what the state theatre suffered during the transformation process. Yes, I would say so. I would say that, look, the market theatre declared a cultural institution a little bit later, you know. It started receiving funding from the GC. I'm not sure when, but it was not immediate after the new dispensation. It received the... Yes, a little bit later. And the people that went to the market theatre were not necessarily the people that came to the state theatre. But then one of the advantages then was that the market theatre was getting a lot of donor funding, which I don't think they are getting now. If they were still getting that donor funding, their lives would be up now, you know. So they were getting a lot of donor funding. Fundraising was serious, you know. And now I don't think they are getting as much as they used to get. So now we are the same. You see, the thing about now is that we are all the same. Of course they've got that big name and of course they've done Osamadi, Rosa Albert, Island, Sisi Evansi, a couple of, you know, Township Stories, no, I mean Township Boys, and Mamu Players. I'm talking about that work that was there, you know. Hungry Earth, Gangsters, Egoly, Black Dog, you know, that work, that was really protest. So the market theatre was really doing, so they had that, and that is their legacy. You know, and it will live forever, regardless of what happened. But now, we are all the same. They've got three theatres, their biggest theatre, like 400, they've just increased it, I think 450 or 500, I'm not sure. They've still got two small theatres, the Bani Saimon and the Laga. Now it's a big theatre. So what about, you said it already, is there donors, are there international institutions, like, I mean, you should be joining us. I'm nearly done. So, I'm going to finish. I'm going to finish. I'm going to finish. I'm going to finish. I'm going to finish. Sorry. Is he coming? Yes, he said he's going to come through. So, what about this role of international donors, of international, like, civil rights foundations, or like, international institutions, like, is there any support anymore? Has there been at a certain point, after the transformation, during your period? I don't think, no, I don't think, I think the first, one thing that last year we did the Tango for 13 with the German Ambassador Stilhaus, I think the UN was also helping, and of course, they gave a little bit of money, they also gave us a little bit of money to last year in December. So, since I've been here, that's what I remember getting. What else did we get? Did we get anything from Goodyear, from Pulsework? I'm not sure, but I know that we got that last year. But the market here, I think that the Consensus received money, I think, I don't know whether from Denmark, but they've been receiving bits and pieces of that, but I don't know how far, how much of that that they're still receiving today. And sometimes there'll be a project with Goodyear and all that. Oh, and we did a rhetorical report, I think Goodyear might have been involved. Goodyear Institute, I think they might have been involved with that. Was it Goodyear? I think it was German. I think there was... Goodyear was at least in Germany. Yeah, that means... So, what about the development? What about your work? Do you still... I mean, beyond this kind of school to hold this, like, you're selling, making metadata to schools or something like that. Is there a development? Do you have a laboratory like the market is? No, not like the market yet, but we have development. We have a development unit. We have contracts with the University of Technology TUT, where you've been. We work with third-year or fourth-year students. We audition community groups and we take their final-year students or their third-year students, we attach them to a community group. They work with the community group for the whole year. At the end of the year, they present at the end of... We start with South African theater, so the first year is South African theater only. So you find that we present about 20 South African classics, and then the following year they can work on a new... They can work on a new script. They present at the end of the year. We choose their best. We program them the next year. We give them the resources, and then they can present on the stage. So that's how we do our development. We are not teaching. We don't see why we should teach at TUT. Okay. I think... I mean, I would have much more questions than I think for the moment. I've asked you enough. This is a lot of stuff to transcribe.