LS_30117 phyllis Klotz and smal

The conversation discusses the transformation of theater in South Africa. The speakers debate whether the content and format of theater have evolved. They mention challenges like lack of groundbreaking work, reliance on traditional formats, and the influence of European models. They also touch on issues with funding, administration, and the need for a more collaborative approach. The focus is on creating a theater that resonates with the South African audience while adapting to international interests. Ultimately, they express concerns about the direction of South African theater and the need for a more authentic and collaborative approach. He would like. Yes. I prefer Eddie rather than me. Okay. You'll ask the questions now. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my general subject is this transformation of theater, and I would like to know at first about your idea of that expression and of its content, whether it has a content for you, because I discovered that there are a couple of people who think that there is more or less nothing related to it, because it didn't work out at all. But basically, I think it's a notion or it's an expression, it's an idea, it's a concept, which is originally of a certain content. Yeah. Well, I don't think the theater's transformed at all in content. Maybe it's transformed in administration, because most of the theaters... It is both. It covers both. Yeah. So maybe it's transformed in administration in that we have black CEOs in theaters, whereas before we had white CEOs. But if you look at what theaters are actually producing, I just think it's same old, same old. It's very new for me, really. And I think the content is pretty thin. You know, maybe there are new plays being produced, and maybe the context has changed, but the format's still the same. I haven't seen any piece of South African work that has said, wow, this is really breaking new ground. I mean, it's very new for me, really. And I think the content is pretty thin. You know, maybe there are new plays being produced, and maybe the context has changed, but the format's still the same. I haven't seen any piece of South African work that has said, wow, this is really breaking new ground. I mean, it's very new for me, really. And I think the content is pretty thin. You know, maybe there are new plays being produced, and maybe the context has changed, but the format's still the same. I haven't seen any piece of South African work that has said, wow, this is really breaking new ground. in a different way, or examining the society in a different way, I don't think so, myself included. Well, you know, I can talk in terms of, because we're an NGO, you know, and it has transformed in a way, in the sense that, you know, during the apartheid days, there was protest theatre, and the world was much more interesting, and so people like Barney Simon and all that, you know, and after 1994, we found ourselves that there's nothing to tear the world apart, because apartheid is gone. So now, what we do now is to find other means now to, you know, sell ourselves. So you find that we went back now to issues which, you know, we can attract audiences to ourselves. So that's the way I feel. As for the government itself and all that, like Chris is saying, nothing has changed actually, because it's still the same kind of thing. We find that the old institutions are still getting money, like, but it hasn't reached the people, you know, down where, you know, it should be. So that's all that I can say at the moment. So we're still trying to find something that can make the German people be, you know, interested in the South African theatre, because it doesn't sell. I mean, there's nothing from South Africa now. Maybe if you can start talking about Mugabe or maybe Zuma. But Fred Bailey is selling nicely in Europe and in the US. But we don't see him there. We don't, yeah. But I've seen... Yeah, but his latest productions, they don't come to Jo'burg. We don't see them. They might start with a trial run in Cape Town. Maybe one or two go to Grahamstown if they can afford it. But they don't come to Jo'burg. The last thing I think he did in Jo'burg was Big Dagger a couple of years ago. So it's now made not for South Africa anymore. It's not made for South Africa. But maybe there's a trial run. But you know what, Ralph? Even why I say nothing is transformed or nothing, if you look at the new Soweto theatre architecturally, it could be anywhere. It's not a South African theatre. What is a South African theatre? Well, that's what I would say. Let's look at even exploring alternative spaces. Let's look at looking at how do we do our work in other spaces that's not influenced by other things. Do we, like, take a performance in the round? Okay, it's not... But do you know what I'm saying? How are we exploring even space to look at a new society? So they build a theatre that could be such a theatre in any small German town or anywhere in Europe. It doesn't grab me at all. The spaces are conventional. I mean, I'm actually interested myself in looking at new theatre forms and new spaces, not necessarily site-specific, but looking at how to interrogate space. You see, when you talk of... You see, people like Bailey, I mean, you find that they explore what kind of interest the theatres in Germany do, which is different from coming up with something from Africa and selling it down there. So you find that if I can get down and learn what is the interest of the popular majority of people in Germany, then I can create something that can... You know, so I'm creating something that people from there enjoy. As a director, you've got to be clever and adapt to what they want, give them what they want, and then give them a bit of African, but then, because there's a demand for that, you know, they enjoy it, you see. But if, from our tradition, that we're telling stories about things that are happening here, you know, in order that, you should get interested in us and touring. But then, it's like, for instance, I know what Americans want, you know, and then I go to America, I live in New York for some time, and then I give them what they want. But what are you doing at home? But what do I... And then I forget about what is happening at home, you see. I do what the Americans want. I don't take Americans in Holland and all that, then they enjoy that, because I'm talking about Malcolm X and all that, all relevant things there, you see. But Malcolm X has got nothing to do with this. But we are clever enough to come up with something that makes those people feel, wow, you know. So there are people who adapt, that's what I think, you know. But there are people who feel that, ee, as South Africans, what can we produce? Something genuine that comes from us, you know. Then we work that thing, and then we find there's many places down there, wow, you know. So there's a difference in creating work, you know. I think what interests me in transformation, what interests me is, you know that Mexican form of popular theatre that they have, it's almost like buffoonery, and I think if our theatre was really transformed, we would look for a South African kind of popular theatre. Because if you look at the 50s and the early 60s in South Africa, the majority of the black population living in the country were very much involved in performance arts, especially like, you know, harmony singing groups and things like that. And I mean, I know everybody derives this from Kensei. But he had some kind of mass populist appeal. And I think if we were transformed, we would be looking for a kind of theatre that speaks to people, and is not necessarily not engaging intellectually. That you could access it, but it also would have intellectual content, you know. But we're not doing that. And also another thing that upsets me very much is becoming this European cult of the writer. That's not how African performance works. I'm not saying we shouldn't have writers, but if you look at our best historical works, they come from collaboration, and people are throwing that out, because now we're having this cult of the writer. We don't have writers, we don't have books. But what about the African collective, which has produced great work? I mean, the fact that even the early Cubans, which I like, like Seaswear and Waza and stuff like that, they still have relevance today, in spite of the political overlay. Because it's about the human condition in a particular way. Those were all done collaboratively. So why are we throwing that notion out, in favour of people who write? I was at that agitators thing yesterday, and all we heard about was, oh well, you know, we will work with a writer. That doesn't interest me, actually, personally. We come from another tradition. I mean, if you ask me, am I a writer, I would say no. And yet there are plays that are published by Seaswear myself. I don't think of myself as a writer, per se. I can write if I'm working with you, and I'll bounce off you. But I couldn't sit and write on my own. Maybe I could, but I would need the collaborative thing. And I think we're also losing that. The theatre makers in the cultural institutions today are so bogged down and bloated by the money, and the expenses of running big buildings, and our government's predilection for CapEx, you know what CapEx is? CapEx is building. Building funds. That they've lost sight of making the work. So that's a transformation. All the theatres, I mean, Artscape in Cape Town, I don't know how many hundred million they've spent on refurbishing, not so much the theatre, yes, but also the offices. Market Theatre's doing the same. I think the state is falling behind. Playhouse did the same, and continues to do so. But the state theatre at least has something like 15 or 20% of its subsidies as an artistic budget, which the market doesn't have. Absolutely. Which apparently has already negotiated with the National Arts Council. No, not the National Arts Council, the government. Well, nobody says, you see, this is the point. And if I remember correctly, Aubrey doesn't get the largest subsidy, no? No. He doesn't. And he's got the most theatres. I think the Playhouse gets the most subsidy, and that's through political connections. And the Playhouse, I can say categorically, because we worked there last year, and the year before, they're dark most of the time. They have three theatres there. When did we arrive there? In April. We left in May. During that time there was, I think, one night show. But they are nicely administrating themselves. Yes, yes. And they'll tell you all the time that they don't have money. And one other thing you should know, is that, well, transformation can only be there when the top, the government, you know, can give a fair amount to all people. But then if transformation is going to come up because the State Theatre and the Playhouse are getting more money without reaching, it's the bottom part that comes up ideally. So you find that when you think of that, if that platform up there hasn't changed, then we are stagnant here, you see. But I mean, the State Theatre, for example, has much less money than before. Yes, but then... I mean, there were 700 employees until the shutdown, and now there are 115 or something like that, which is still a lot of stuff. The State Theatre, for instance, now wants us to get down there, and the money they are giving us to bring a show cannot pay a person for hazards and all that. Now, we are the creators of the plays that are going to attract audiences there. But if the money doesn't reach the people who go to create plays there, but if the obelisks and all that get, the 20,000 or whatever they get, and it doesn't... We don't write plays, you see. They write plays. They write plays, but then we need fresh ideas from the people down there, you know. So when you write a play, for instance, it's like, for instance, you write something that is valuable, and then when you expose it to them, then it becomes a good play because, you see. But they are not... They are there. What you find there, it's not like in the old days where Barney Simon used to write the thing. When Barney Simon used to do research, it was a habit, for instance. It's not Barney Simon who wrote it, but he was able to take the people down there, Pesentoa and Bougainville, and then from there he developed everything with the money from there, and then it became an international thing. So you find that all of it, like Arthur Fugard again, had to coach in PE John Garney and Winston, and after that he did research, and then it became international. But they cannot go now. That's why now the market theatre is also not functioning well because they neglect that. Meanwhile, those people go down there, take a play and train people, because fresh ideas come. So that process, to me, that process of going down to the people with fresh ideas and taking up their thing and making it something that can... That is... So it cannot be changed because all the money goes to those people. I mean, to all his credit, really, to his credit, he is trying to stimulate theatre and giving groups a chance. But the problem is the quality of the development work is very slow. So... And when do you stop developing and turn the group that is nurturing into professional? And I think that's the big problem. And I think I'll go back to what Small says, is that if people would spend more energy and time, just giving a platform to someone in the theatre doesn't necessarily mean you're nurturing them. I mean, I know we sound like old-fashioned, but that's what Barney did. Barney Simon spent years working with people. He never took credit for it. He just worked. When I brought Strike the Woman to the market theatre, he sat with me for a week and we discussed the play. Some of his ideas I liked and some I didn't like. And he was not offended. And he mentored me. Now, we don't have that intense mentoring and training. And people sitting day in and day out. I know that there is a sense in it, but there's just not that largesse of the spirit anymore. We don't have it. It's everyone for themselves and egos and people, artistic directors, which is fine, but I know that you and I know that an artistic director is not there for his or her benefit. Primarily... It depends on the philosophy of the artist. Right, but it should be for the benefit of that theatre or that festival. Once the artist, and I'm sure you have it in Germany as well, once that director starts thinking of only promoting themselves, then the work stops. Then don't be an artistic director. Be a director. That's fine. There's no problem with that. I'm a director. I want to promote my work. I've got a lot to say. Fine. But don't undertake the artistic leadership of an organization or a festival and then only think of yourself in promoting. But I mean, on the other hand, I mean, Barney Simon and the Market Theatre are a very special case. I mean, you cannot generalize this very special work which is now very strongly related to the opposition to the Apartheid regime. I mean, after 1994, I mean, the Barney Simon died in 1995, but I mean, the work of the Market Theatre in the second half of the 90s was apparently not, I mean... Yeah, well, they had bad leadership. And who really... I mean, it was John Carney. It was one of the old guys. It was one of the old companies. But he's not an artistic director. He's a director. But then you should know before the market got money from the government, you know, Barney Simon was there because they were not getting money from the opposition. That's when, you know, they developed all these good things. But the soon end was subsidized and all that. There was money coming from... Because it works on you. If you get money, then you tend to sit down. If there's no money, then you tend to work hard to expose the talent of the people. To get the money. Yeah, to get the money. So you would say, here is the pay from the Market Theatre, gets to that thing, that thing, and then you make money out of that. Many, many men all that. There's no other source except we should develop people and good things like that thing. But as soon as they started funding them, I don't know how much they get now, and then we found people now, that's it. So it's a question of, oh, there's money after all, you know. So the question of coming with new plays which can go to Germany and all that, that's a lot of money. So that thing, it's based on people who are there. Those who are returning, they were under the system where they used to go out, rehearse without money. Rehearsal, there was no money for rehearsals, like ball time, all this. There was no money, you know. But everybody knew that if I can get to the Market Theatre, then I have a chance of getting to Germany and all that. That inspired people, you know. Soon there was money, and then people were nice, you know. But also in those days, there was no access for black people, really, to go to institutions of higher learning. And those very institutions have not transformed. So a lot of black kids are going to university, theatre schools or whatever. And they're not producing South African artists, in my view. They are producing quasi-European actors. They don't perform in their mother tongue. They don't learn too much about African theatre, masquerade, performance style. It's all about ennui or... What? Ennui, you know. The French... You know, maybe I'm not saying it the way you know. All right, Sartre or somebody like that. Lemouches or something like that. You know what I'm saying? It's not about what are we learning from the rest of Africa, and how do we share, and how do we take up what's happening. And that's where the transformation should be. Really. Because we're training actors not to do the South African... I'm not saying they shouldn't learn about European theatre and the great traditions, but there's a balance. So I don't think anything has really been transformed. Myself. Yes, society's transformed. When Paul and I started working together, I could never get accommodation for them in Cape Town, because I was in Cape Town. Those things have transformed. The aspirations of young people have transformed. They really have. Because when we started working, there was no hope before. And there is hope now. And they do go on to institutions, whether they're doing drama or law or whatever. All these things are open to them now. And that's transformed. But the actual content is still the same. You better go.