LS_30115 vanessa cooke 3

The speaker reflects on the changes brought by increased funding to a cultural institution, resulting in more regulations, reports, and financial accountability. The institution became more formal and focused on sustainability, impacting the social aspect. The source of funding shifted from corporates to government, affecting fundraising efforts. The discussion also touches on changes in artistic direction, audience attendance, and production costs in theater, highlighting the evolving landscape and challenges in the industry. Let's reflect again on this kind of when the money arrived, when the mana came, what happened then? I mean, how was it before and beyond the fact that there was more money for the staff and a bit more security? What did it do? What happened? What happened in the... It became an institution. It became an institution. But in what way? Quarterly reports, monthly reports, all that admin stuff, you know, reporting, reporting, reporting. We had to comply with all the different acts, the Public Finance Act, the Cultural Institution Act, all of that stuff. So a lot of regulations came into being. Those three-year plans or five-year plans? All of that stuff. You had to do that. You had as well those kind of aims? Aims and objectives, and mission statements, and training in those things, a lot of training in those things, which could drive you insane. So it became regulated, health and safety, good things, I'm not saying bad things, but very much time-consuming in terms of the admin and reporting to the board and the board reporting. We always had annual reports, and those were good, but this became much more, and then there would be meetings with DACC and all of that stuff. And I was on the NAC for quite a long time, and we had that there as well, so it became a nightmare, really, but necessary, obviously, in terms of being accountable. And then came the thing of, you must be self-sustainable now, which became a very hard thing at a place like the lab, because now the students pay quite a high fee, so they have to raise money for bursaries, because a lot of the kids can't afford it. So on those kind of levels, it's much more strict. So the social aspect has suffered in a way? In a way, I suppose, yeah. And obviously there was a lot of trust involved before, and that is not so much needed anymore. Where did the money come from before the money came from the state? Corporates from overseas. Corporates? Corporates, big businesses, Anglo, those sort of business kind of connections, and NetBank, and those sort of institutions. And what happened if you had a budget hold at the end of the season? Well, that's what happened with James, I think. No, no more. You can't swap some money from somewhere else in the meantime, no. That budget is that budget, that's that budget. How was it at your time? Well, I think they would use, say, some Anglo money to put on a show, put it back, whatever, I imagine. There were no angels to... Yes, there were some angels, but the angels got stung quite a lot, sometimes, you know, at some of the shows. It's not like New York. Even there they get stung, I think. Yeah, probably. Yeah, so, yeah, that kind of fundraising has changed, I think, with the government money. You're always on having fundraising drives, you know, you've got to get a million rand, and the chairman of the board was involved with that, and it's now sort of... It's there, but it's not like it used to be, in terms of fundraising. So you think the market has a fundraising problem as well, eventually? I do, in a way, yes, I do. I'm not sure that they've got the right campaign, myself. I think they rely a lot on the government and the lottery, and the lottery, you never know if it's going to come or not. You need to have a base. You see, for many years, the market, also we had the flea market... Which is? Originally it was created by the art gallery and the photo gallery committee to raise money to keep the galleries going. And then it was so successful that they had all the money, and the theatre wasn't getting that kind of income, so they came to an agreement. So for many years, the flea market kept the market going. What was it, the flea market? It was a huge flea market on the square. Oh, really, the flea market? Yes, the flea market. And it was huge, in the 80s it was huge. People were paying to have... People were paying to have stalls, and it just created the people, too, to come to them. You could spend the whole day and the whole evening there. You'd go to the Yard of Ale, then you'd end up with kippis, even if you didn't see a show. And that income was our kind of little bread and butter coming in. And then that kind of died out, because they opened other flea markets, and then they changed the square, they weren't allowed to have a flea market there, so the council... To the council? Yes, they didn't... To the city council? To the city council. So yes, we had kind of our own way of proceeding. And also I think when the government money came, they didn't need a flea market, in a way. So that all changed. And then the art gallery also died out. When did it die? I think it was during John Carney's time, I think. It was before Malcolm, I think. Because there used to be an art gallery curator there, and everything. And then they cut that position, and the collection came to this. So yes, it wasn't core business. Wasn't there a kind of consolidation for the market theatre in itself when Malcolm took over from the time of John Carney? Or what was it in your perception? I mean, the functioning of the theatre, the functioning of the programme, the artistic... The artistic programme. ...attendance. What do you think? What did change? How did it change? Well, I suppose it's the taste and stuff as well, isn't it? Okay. It has to have something to do with it. So yes, it changed in that way. Different kind of menus. But, I mean, perhaps this is... I mean, I've been not very often at the market. I've been under John Carney's time when I was there in 1998. And then when Malcolm was here, I was two seasons here, so I was there for two seasons. And then when Malcolm was here, I was two seasons here, so I saw, I don't know, five of his shows or something like that at the market. So... I'm in Graham's town. I mean, when I was there in the 90s, there were two or three shows so that there was really no audience. It was really very poor, something like a big market theatre, 20 people. And when Malcolm was here, it was nice. I mean, it was not full, but it was something like 250 or something like that, a normal attendance, something like that. I don't know. This is just my own impression. I think it was also the times, maybe, with John. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure if he had a vision. I'm not sure if he had a vision, John. And Malcolm's vision was commercial, a bit more commercial, I guess. I guess so. Of course, I mean, he had to make the theatre running, no? Yeah. I mean, you have to be an entrepreneur in a way. Yes, you have to be a... Yeah, you have to. But, yeah, with Malcolm, it was more like a hierarchy, I guess. And John, it was a different kind of hierarchy. Whereas before, with Manny and Barney, it was sort of a partnership. More open, I think, too. We had lots of spaces at the market before. People were doing the rehearsal room, People were doing the rehearsal room here and there and everywhere, because they said, we want to put on our play, well, we haven't got a theatre. OK, well, can we use... We make a theatre here. There was much more yes going on in those days. You see what I mean? Not so formal. And the budgets are very high now as well, with the plays. No. Yeah. Very expensive to put on a play now. But does it make it so expensive? Paying people more for the set, paying more for the materials, paying more for publicity. I mean, publicity, I mean, the multiplication of media tools in our society. I would have thought it wouldn't make it more expensive, but apparently it does. But those things I've never understood. Those things I've never understood anyway. I don't know. Newspaper ads and... Now it's... web pages and... all of that stuff. Yeah, so it's become an expensive business, which I don't think necessarily it should be all the time. Well, people have to live off it. I guess so. Yeah. I mean, you were living off it, were you? We were, we were. You know, you'd have to go and do TV and make a movie every now and then. Because our salaries were very low. Yeah, yeah. We subsidized the market for that. And the set design. Was it possible for the market theater actors to be involved in the state TV here? Did you want to be involved in the state TV? I wasn't. Some people did. Some people didn't. You know, it depended on what you felt about S.A.B.C. But now there are many more stations and stuff. Yeah, yeah. So it's much easier. Most of the actors do TV now. Yeah, yeah, of course. But, I mean, at that time it was a kind of political thing as well, no? It was also a political thing. John Carney himself was never on TV. I think I did about two or three things and then, who knows? Yeah, I don't know. But I must say that being a young person now it must still be exciting. To do theater. To do theater, I would think. I mean, the people that I know from here they all want to be in the theater. Not in the TV. They have to be in the TV, but they want to be in the theater. Yeah? Yeah. But there's definitely not that much stuff being produced in the theater. Yeah, but this is why? I mean, is it... I mean, the funding was not more at that time. No, it wasn't more. I mean, the funding for the state theater was a lot. That was a lot. But the independent sector didn't have money at that time. No, no. I mean, P.D. Turin still puts on his own shows. Yes, of course. Yeah, of course. But this is very commercial. Yeah. Yeah. And somehow, I don't know if the market would succeed doing his kind of shows. I'm not sure. The big shows we couldn't do anyway because the theater is too small. Of course. But the comedies and things, I'm not sure that people come to the market for that. Basically not. I would hope that not. Yeah. I don't think so. It wouldn't work. It never did. Every now and then, Manny would say, oh, come on, let's put on an egg-born comedy. It was okay. But they wanted to go to Peter to do that. Somehow. It's like, what are you doing that for? Don't you come to the market to do that? So I think that's probably still the same. But what worries me is that the Soweto Theater is doing badly. The market, I don't think is doing that well. And about the state? The state is also not doing well. What do you think about the state theater at the moment? I think Aubrey's been there for too long for himself. I think he needs to do something else. Actually. But also now there's this other whole thing about the three theaters in Jo'burg are run by one person. There's one person in charge of three theaters, Soweto, Rudderput, and the market. Is it the market or is it the state? No. There are three theaters that are run from one central position. The market theater is in charge as well of the Windy Brow now. Yes. That is strange to me. I don't understand it. I think it must have been a desperate move on someone's part. That day there was a lot of money missing. Yeah, I know. But I feel sorry for the people from Windy Brow at the market. What do they do? I don't know. But the Windy Brow is closed now. It's closed. There's nothing going on at the moment. They're supposed to be renovating but I don't know where to get the money. That's sad. It's very sad. But the Windy Brow has always been problematic. In which way? The fact I think that it belonged to the state somehow. It never got over that kind of... I don't know. There's always been something strange there for me. I was on a committee at one point to try to... It was important actually. It still went on the same. But I really feel sorry for those guys. What about the National Arts Council? Beyond the fact that they are not distributing money? I don't know what's going on there at all. Why don't they have money? Why haven't they got their budgets? They have two million or something like that? Two million? Yeah. Is that all? Yeah, apparently. No. I don't know. That is what I heard. But then they must close it. It's not working. It was more than that when I was there. How much do you have? God, I can't even remember but it was a lot. Okay. I don't know. Perhaps the numbers I heard, I didn't verify it. I didn't check it. Or wrong. Gosh, that would be shocking. Yeah, yeah. I thought so. Anything is possible I suppose. But, I mean, it's our fault as well isn't it? If we don't... If we complain. If we don't do anything. What could you do? Somehow we've got to get through to DAC I would think. Don't you? Wouldn't you think? Yeah, of course. Because I don't think they have any much communication. They have now and then and in Visa or whatever. I think there was one recently. What? With DAC. A conference. Okay. But there's no communication. I don't believe. But is the DAC in a way responsible enough to take this seriously? Are they really interested in that? Well, shouldn't they be? Yes, they should be. But are they? I don't know. Because I don't even know who they are anymore. Me. And that's not right. I don't say that's a good thing from my side. But people have kind of given up in a way. That's why I'm always so good in a way. He tries to he tries to he tries to keep it running. Running. And questioning things. But I think we don't do it enough. I mean my Khan is doing that in a way as well. But what's he doing? Shouting. Yeah. Training. Doing training. He's doing training. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know where it all went squanky but it did. What is this kind of I mean we are talking all the time now about this the effect of this transformation which doesn't work in a way. I mean everybody is kind of complaining. What is this kind of what is it about about this transformation? What is it? For me there's no content. Replacing white people by black people? No. I don't think that's so much. No. It's You know how can I put it to you? You've got the DA's there. The DA? The DA. The Democratic Alliance which is the official opposition. Right? And you've got the ANC now you've got the EFS as well and a few other people. The A the DA for instance which is mostly white people but there are quite a lot of black people now can only behave in a moaning way. OK so you get people shouting at you. Say you're from DAC and I'm from the DA I come and I shout at you and I tell you I don't know what you don't know what you're doing you shouldn't be in this position and it really just goes like this. There's no working together because I don't believe I believe the environment is such that maybe somebody isn't that experienced in culture and they're there but they won't ask because you get shouted at by people who supposedly know what they do and I'm not sure they do also. So that's it's a problem there's a culture of and you must listen to the radio sometimes you can go mad with people complaining and complaining and complaining and talking about they they they talk to you if you talk like that you're never going to get anyone to talk to you if you talk to them like that never and that's a big problem big problem and I'm not sure how to how it is going to be solved So there's there's no content of transformation so there is no no real transformation for you You mean in terms of of how do you mean exactly yeah I mean the plan of transforming the society into a eco-society into a eco-society I think we haven't even begun properly honestly I don't think properly we have when you say Mike von Fraun is shouting I know exactly what you mean who? Mike von Fraun you say he's shouting yes he's been shouting for it doesn't it's not it's going to help and obviously people it's difficult very difficult to be in the ruling position and in the positions that can make or break something but there hasn't been the right kind of help I don't think assistance let's say yeah but this is what we had already in 1998 when I went with those guys to Alexandra and they were forming teachers for the new arts and culture subjects whatever it was called and there were no teachers and no one was telling them how to teach exactly but you've got to have it yeah we're not doing it properly I don't think and they say we're not doing arts and culture as well as English I don't know what the hell that is but it's not so easy to say I don't know what the hell it is because you might lose your job are you oh we are we are more or less done EU dialogue facility workshop