Mic'd up with Adrienne Sanders

Adrienne is a Canadian living in London. She is the founder of a consultancy practice specializing in leadership development and self-leadership. She is also training as a counseling psychologist. Adrienne combines her interest in psychology with her work in leadership, facilitating group training and workshops. She started her journey in public speaking and facilitation during her teenage years through performing arts and theater. Her biggest challenge throughout her journey has been nerves, but she has learned to accept and manage them through preparation, rehearsal, and positive visualization. She believes that nerves show that you care about what you're saying and doing. Thank you very much, Adrienne, for joining us today. Before we jump into our questions, tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and what it is that you do. Absolutely. So, hey, my name is Adrienne, and I am a Canadian. I live in London. I've been here for about nine years now, and I do two key things, I would say. The first is I am the founder of a consultancy practice where I specialize in leadership development, specifically in leadership psychology and the concept of self-leadership. So how do we think about our own mindset, self-limiting beliefs, building our self-awareness in terms of how we practice leadership, both kind of inside and outside of work. And then the other side of that is I also am training as a counselling psychologist. So I'm doing a doctorate at the moment, and I work with individuals and sometimes groups therapeutically from the perspective of kind of the ethos, I suppose, of social justice, person-centred and relational-type approaches. So I think those two things, they're slightly different, but they interlink quite heavily in terms of what I do. I bring a lot of the theory and my interest in psychology into my work with leaders, and where I facilitate and do a lot of kind of group training and group workshops and public speaking as well. Amazing. That is one hell of a combination, though, in the sense of, I say, there's a really nice, such a golden thread in there about the fact of the leadership or the psychology element. And actually, if I'm listening to it correctly, it's about the person as a whole, and depending on what they're in. So can you tell me about what your journey has been into public speaking, facilitation, being able to stand up and actually speak in front of people? What's your journey been to get to where you are today? What are the types of things that you do with your public speaking? Yeah, I would say my journey probably began when I was a teenager, to be totally honest. I remember spending a lot of time doing things like performing arts, theatre, improv, and in many ways, that kind of practice of standing up in front of people, trying on different characters, different voices, different, you know, shapes, that I really got the opportunity to feel what it felt like to kind of put myself out there and be in front of people, and also kind of begin to appreciate the concept that our body, our voice, the way that we speak, tone, pace, is a tool, and is a tool for storytelling, and kind of connecting and empathy building. And I think from there, very much in my professional practice, kind of over the last 12, 15 years, I've put myself out there and gotten really involved in things like facilitation, presentations, and my kind of professional practice in learning and development in particular. So having various roles, you know, head of learning and development in a charitable organization, and working on leadership programs in more corporate settings as well, and now working across the public, private, and third sector in my own consultancy practice, I find myself kind of doing a lot of this kind of work, mostly facilitating, I would say, but also doing keynote speeches as well, talking a lot about, yeah, like you said, how do we bring our whole selves to work? What do we need to think about in terms of showing up authentically, and kind of addressing both our skills in terms of how we communicate, but also how do we support ourselves in a way that makes sense for us? So that kind of is something I'm really passionate about and drives me in a big way. And I think it's ultimately why I've spent the amount of time that I've spent doing it and kind of chosen to do the doctorate as well. You mentioned then about that when you were a teenager performing arts and improv, and interestingly, one of the other people that I spoke to, James, he started off in the same way, but his avenue has gone into sports commentary and hosting. So it's interesting that there's almost a starting point for a lot of people, I guess, from a confidence-building perspective. So that would have given you quite a good step to start off. But kind of looking back to then, what was your biggest challenge when you first started out? And then think about how you then changed. So obviously, you might have had a challenge standing up in front of people when you're a teenager and that performing arts side of things. But then when you take it into the business context where you're standing up and you're you, was there a difference in the biggest challenge that you faced? Yeah, so it's really interesting. I think the challenge that I faced at the beginning of this journey when I was younger is the same challenge I face today. I think it's just gotten a little bit easier, and I've learned a little bit more. I've honed the practice of how to navigate that challenge, and that challenge is nerves. It's a psychological response. It's a physiological response, and I don't think it's something that's unique to me. I think it's something that a lot of people face, particularly when I talk to people about getting up in front of a large group of people. It's that feeling of, oh, am I going to be judged for this? Will I fail? Will I say the wrong thing? And that kind of feeling of anxiety that happens as well, both psychologically. So you might be thinking those self-limiting beliefs, and you might be having those thought patterns that aren't serving you. But you might also have, I have, really unwanted physiological responses. I might feel very shaky, or my heart might be pounding, or my mouth might go dry. And those aren't things I have ever found particularly helpful when you need to be getting up in front of people. And I think when I was younger, I really didn't know what to do with that. I really found it difficult. There were times where I froze. I forgot what I needed to say. I think there was one time where I actually ended up having to walk off stage. And over the last, gosh, 30 years, I have gotten to a place where I'm really accepting that those things may happen in terms of those responses. And I suppose when I think about the work I do with organizations in particular, I found that the practice of just really getting to know what I want to say and how I want to say it. So repetition, getting to know my material inside and out. And I think that comes from the concept of rehearsal. Getting to know how does it sound and feel to say this? What feels authentic to me? What might be the cadence I want to use? How does it feel? Where do I put my hands? And kind of visualizing that, I suppose, as well in the context of the space that the session might be happening in. So that's really helpful for me. And then I think also positive visualization in terms of if it goes wrong, what might I do? At this point, what might be helpful for me to think about? Or how can I regulate my breathing? And so part of that as well as preparation, both in advance of the day, but also on the day. If you're doing something in the morning, I often have a really, not strict, I would say, but I have a very routine. I have a routine practice that I go through to get myself prepared as someone would maybe to go on stage and play a part. And that's not to say I'm playing a part, but I am putting myself into a position where I will feel nervous. So I need to prepare myself physically and psychologically for that, so that I can be my most authentic self. And it's really interesting you say that about nerves and anxiety. And actually, it's the same challenge you had as a teenager and now, but actually part of it is accepting that's going to happen. I go red. As soon as I start to speak, and it tends to be more in meeting settings than it does standing up on a stage or in front of people. Well, my face immediately goes bright red. I get a flush. And it obviously is like, it's almost that element of blood rush to the face, the adrenaline, as you said, the fear, the anxiety, that side of it. And I used to try and find every single way possible to stop that from happening. But the more I tried to stop it, the more I would get worked up, which actually makes it worse. So accepting actually that, what are your nerves? How do they manifest themselves in you physically and psychologically is actually part of that journey. Because one thing I've always kind of drilled everything down to is, if you are nervous, you are caring about what you're about to say and what you're about to do. If nerves are eliminated, there's something not, for me, there is something not quite right about that situation, because there is a lack of, I guess, care about what it is you're going to say. As you say, we're always going to care, we're going to be judged, people want to listen, am I going to be entertaining, am I going to be engaging, all of those types of things that you spoke about then. So that element of understanding your nerves, what and how it manifests in you, means you can then focus on how you process that, so the breaths, but also what do I do if X happens? Whereas I think when you first start out on a journey, you're so focused on the nerves and how do I bring them down, that actually you don't have time to think about everything else, so that experience does move you towards, it's repetition, it's being comfortable, it's getting to know your material, but also getting to know yourself and how you respond. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I think this idea of having to eradicate nervousness or feel completely and utterly calm, although I know people that say they feel that way, that's never been the goal for me, because as you say, I think the passion and the energy that I have behind these things actually, when it comes up as nervousness, perhaps can actually be really helpful. I think it's just about honing it in a way that feels supportive and useful to you, rather than hindering you and maybe causing the sense of losing your place or forgetting what you might say. I think part of that is really kind of replacing some of the negative thoughts about this can't happen, this shouldn't happen, with maybe some more positive affirmations, reminding yourself that you're safe and that's an okay situation, maybe of your successes and maybe what you need to do next. I think the other thing that I really learned a lot about around this through practice and through speaking with people is around the power of breath and of breathing. I think something we all do every single day, all day long, is breathing, but we don't necessarily get taught how to do it and how to use it to our advantage when we're feeling a physiological response of nervousness or stress or anxiety, and how to calm your nervousness by using your breath, whether that's inhaling slowly and holding your breath for a few seconds and then exhaling gradually. So that's been really helpful for me as well, is using those tools to kind of get my breath and get myself prepared for those moments. And I think it's in the power of silence to allow yourself to think, because your natural cadence, as you're saying, your natural rhythm, if you were having a conversation with somebody, isn't constantly talking, isn't constantly filling every silence, it goes back and forth. So therefore when you're facilitating or you're in a meeting or you're even doing a keynote speech, it's one of the things that I mentioned is how do you engage the audience in a way that allows you time to think, because you don't have to talk at people for however long it is you have. And I think that's a misconception as well, is I must fill every single second that I've been given with sound, otherwise they're not going to get their money's worth, they're not going to ask me back and I won't have delivered what I said I was going to deliver. This is pace and allowing people to think and what you've said to resonate with people and for them to ponder on what it is that you've said versus, oh hang on a minute, I'm still thinking about what she said 10 seconds ago and she's moved on to three different things that I haven't even paid any attention to. Yeah absolutely and I think if you look at some of the most impactful speeches in history, their cadence was quite, you know, quite paced, quite slow and there is something quite overwhelming about being talked at and being given a lot of information in a very short amount of time. Sometimes, you know, I understand the need for it in terms of particular contexts require people to get a lot of information out quickly, but I think if we're talking about, you know, in the work that I do, really reflective questions and work about myself, about leadership, about how you communicate and show up for others but also for yourself, I do think those things need space for sure. No definitely and you did touch on there around how you prepare, so you mentioned around if you are going to do a certain thing, you have a routine, you use visualisation, what kind of things do you tend to do? If you were going to do a keynote, what are the little things that you do as a preparation routine for that? Yeah, so for me, I very much, I think I said already, I practice and that's really important in terms of getting to know how it feels to say what I want to say and sometimes when I say it out loud, I'll notice that's not actually the tone I want to use or at this moment, I might want to use a pause or I might want to say it a bit faster or maybe I want to say it a bit slower and part of that's me getting to know my authentic voice. I think it's really easy to want to sound like somebody you admire maybe as a speaker, there's so many incredible speakers out there and it's sometimes tempting to want to sound like them but I think it's important to hear your own voice and to practice hearing what it sounds like and what feels comfortable and authentic to you because at the end of the day, if you're comfortable on a stage, your audience will feel comfortable as well. So for me, practice, repetition, hearing it out loud is really key. I'll also really try to get to know my audience, so part of my series of questions and preparation will be who's in the audience, how many people, how will they be seated, what's the layout like, what's the room like, where will I be standing, so really painting a picture and for me, that's part of my visualization practice as well, where might I stand and where would the, if I have like a visual aid for example, what would that be, where would that be in the room, so really kind of getting a sense of basically preparing my system to when I get there, it won't be the first time that I've seen it because I visualized it and I've understood it in my mind and in my psyche before I've kind of gotten there. I guess the other things I'll think about is as well like how can I practice relaxation as I mentioned, so my breathing and my mindfulness on the day and then I also, you know, this sounds probably maybe, I don't know if it's obvious but I will always double check the technology. There's been a few times in my practice where the technology has failed on the day and you really have to pivot and so I always kind of make sure I have a plan B if that happens but also double checking it and so that's really key as well and then the final thing I'll say about this is I always dress in a way that's comfortable for me. Obviously staying for the environment, I'm not saying I go on stage in, you know, sweatpants although I would love to but I definitely go, I go in a way that feels comfortable to me because ultimately again like if I feel myself and I feel like, you know, Adrian the way that I understand Adrian, then again I'm going to be the most confident and comfortable that I can be in, you know, when I'm standing up in front of hundreds of people. I think it's the things that you can control because again if you feel comfortable in your clothing, you're not worried about falling over in your pair of shoes or you've got a new piece of clothing on that you're not quite sure is going to, how it's going to move and how you're going to move in that, it takes away that one thing to think about. It takes away, you know, as soon as you tick off those things and it's interesting you say about, you mentioned around the audience where they're going to be sat, where you're going to be stood, where your visual aid might be but also that element of technology and equipment so thinking about, right, do you have a lapel mic, do you have, I could, what I call the Madonna mic, so the face mic, is it a handheld, is it a microphone at all because there are again preparing for how much you will need to use your energy because if it's a room without a microphone then you're going to need to project which is a different style of presenting or speaking than if you were talking into a microphone and being able to have a conversation and the technology one, again, really important as you say that I think that is the thing that people get caught out the most but one of the questions I would always ask any, wherever you're going and whoever you're doing is will I have chance to practice with the technology before because sometimes you're asked to arrive for a session at 10, the day started at 9 and you can't get access to the room or the technology so there's an element of asking has it been checked, is everything working because you might not physically be able to do that and I think that again comes from experience and you say when you do things not working you know next time that you're going to ask. 100%, 100% and I think I think the sometimes the hard truth is you learn these things through making kind of unfortunate mistakes, happy failures because they teach you something every single time, you know, you improve and hone your method and your practice every single time something goes a little bit wrong. Yeah, absolutely. To finish up, what three things would you share with somebody who may be starting out on their journey of wanting to be a speaker or a facilitator or just quite simply wants to be able to stand up and speak in front of a group of people, so what three things would you share that would help somebody kind of delve into those inner confidences so that they can take those steps forward? Yeah, beautiful questions. I mean there's, to try to hone it down, so I think the first thing I would say is decide what it is that you want to say, what's something that you're interested in, pick a piece of material or content that means something to you, doesn't have to be you know your burning passion but something that you feel is going to set you up for success when you're talking to other people, and part of that I suppose is what I mentioned already, practice, know your material inside out and put yourself into a space that feels a little bit scary but maybe not a too stretched zone, so maybe pick a smaller group of people, maybe let them know you're practicing, give yourself that opportunity to be in a relatively safe but brave space, you know, rather than maybe you know your first time speaking in front of a hundred people, so really kind of know your material and give yourself that opportunity to practice in a brave space. I think the second thing I would say is embrace your voice and your authenticity, so I think that's being genuine to who you are and speaking in a way that is true to you, so again maybe not thinking about how you want to be based on how other people are but you know practice, say it out loud, what's your personal experience, tell us your story, use storytelling to give us impact in who you are, in your background, your expertise, everything you have to say is of immense value, so bring that diversity of perspective and let it kind of shine through and then I think the final thing I would say is seek feedback, so you can get a coach, you can use friends, you can use colleagues and give yourself an opportunity to get feedback and if you don't have the opportunity to do that you could always record yourself as well and watch it back, although I know sometimes that may feel a little bit uncomfortable, I think it's a really helpful practice to self-reflect and to see how you're coming across and hone it from there. Perfect, thank you very much and thank you very much for taking the time out to talk to us. Thanks Rachel, thank you, thanks for having me.