Pete_001

The Military Motifs podcast is exploring how Turkish war movies portray Turkish national identity, focusing on the military's relationship with religion and cultural conflicts. The importance of media in projecting Turkey's soft power and narrative control is discussed. Different movies are analyzed, with some focusing on modern military and others on historical battles like Gallipoli. The movies depict themes of camaraderie, religious nationalism, and the role of ethnicity in Turkish identity. Islamic nationalism is highlighted as an important aspect of Turkish nationalism, both historically and in modern times. The movies show a shift towards more overt religious themes post-2016. Sounds good. Thanks, Laura. All right Wow Great very very sultry man. I appreciate that All right, so hey, my name is peach slaughter I'm here with And we are the military motifs podcast on this episode We'll be looking at Turkish war movies specifically kind of with our central question being how do Turkish war movies portray Turkish national identity? And we're trying to explore the military's relationship with religion in my case I'm particularly looking pre versus post 2016 to and we're also going to take a look at the cultural and ethnic conflicts That exist through this lens as well Yeah Yeah, certainly there was one in particular by Kalin is on soft power and public diplomacy in Turkey That we talked through where Kalin talks about the importance of media in projecting Turkey's new soft power Where essentially the AKP the ruling party in Turkey? Are trying to take back narrative control of Turkish identity trying to appeal to different audiences Create a larger audience for their cultural products, you know Which allows to compete for influence in the region it gives them greater economic opportunities and certainly influence on the world stage as well So I think that speaks to why these movies were produced again take me taking back narrative control from of Turkey And allowing this new kind of Turkish nationalism new Ottoman ism to appeal to Turks and other people abroad Oh, yeah Yeah Yeah, and I I thought was really interesting when we were going through these You know when I was watching my movies at least how much they rhymed in a sense with American movies in that regard where there was certainly this theme throughout of as you said camaraderie between soldiers the whole you know, the You know the whole like Shakespearean, you know, he who sheds his blood today with me shall be my brother That kind of replete as it is as it is in American movies as well So it's interesting to kind of connect to those through lines I think there's something about military culture that that's kind of a universal kind of reality of military culture Yeah, man So again, you know, I was focusing kind of on on modern movies. I Should say when I say modern movies, I should say movies that depict a modern military And so that led me to some more popular movies I was looking at the mountain series. There's mountain one Mountain to produce in 2012 2016 respectively both importantly They were both written and principal photography was completed prior to the two of 2016 And so both of those movies were very popular very well respected in many cases very secular And we'll go into that a little bit more detail later then I also looked at the movie wolf Which was the you know, the follow-on movie to the to the episode about that special forces military police, you know You know, we saw in class and then there was also a movie called confida which in in English is I Can't remember what it's to die for. Thank you, man. I almost forgot. Thank you. Yeah to die for and so that movie is it's an interesting story kind of about a It's about a fighter pilot who gets shot down kind of behind them and the enemy lines and it's this amorphous like coded Arab But like potentially Isis potentially Syrian Civil war but like an amorphous enemy, you know, it's kind of interesting. How about you? What movies did you watch? You know familiar with the Battle of Mandikert and then you know that in 1071 is a very significant battle in which enabled the Turks to complete eventually the conquest of Anatolia over the next few hundred years This was a top Turkish war movie of 2022 And it's absolutely a Turkish origin The second movie I focused on was called Gallipoli end of the road This was a topic that the top Turkish war movie of 2013 It's about the Battle of Gallipoli in the First World War. Now they're on an entire loss and they're trying to figure out how to get out of the war They're trying to figure out how to get out of the war. They're trying to figure out how to get out of the war They're trying to figure out how to get out of the war. They're trying to figure out how to get out of the war It's about The First World War Now they're on an entire loss in the First World War But when Turks remember the First World War they prefer to think about Battle of Gallipoli Because that was a huge upset, a huge victory against the Allied forces And the synopsis of this movie is that there are two brothers that leave their mountain village to fight on the front lines And hopefully push back the Allies Very cool, very cool. How did you structure your analysis? You know, I chose kind of more modern movies, you chose kind of historically focused movies Was there a way, like a lens through which you viewed them? Yes. Because mine were historical, I can fact check You know, it's not a fiction movie where they have total artistic liberty There are some facts that it's ostensibly based on And so I was able to categorize my observations in two buckets First, editorial choices. The movie makers, what did they choose to include out of the available facts? What did they really highlight? What did they choose to not include in order to reinforce a particular narrative? The second bucket is historical revisionism What did they just make up in order to reinforce a narrative that has no truth to it at all? That's funny Yeah, so I primarily looked at my movies through a pre- versus a post-coup narrative I was focusing kind of on the portrayal of different ethnic groups as well In the event that they appeared in any of the movies I analyzed So I was particularly interested to see how kind of mountain movies versus the two later movies Wolf and Confida, how they portrayed the military's relationship with religion There's some interesting takeaways there, I felt But I was also curious to view them I was also curious to see how the movies took on kind of the various ethnic groups that appeared And I was in many ways surprised by what I found here I felt as though I thought I was going to see one thing and I saw one very separate of it instead What were the main themes that you noted? Yeah, so I guess first, the first big thing I think I want to talk about is just Islamic nationalism I think my movies, particularly the last two, Confida and Wolf, were kind of replete with religious motifs The second thing I noticed, as I kind of mentioned before, was there was this hinting at kind of what the role of ethnicity in Turkish national identity is But I think again, I think there's a little bit more to go on with the religious Islamic nationalism So I think kind of we'll start there And I want to ground this discussion, I think, in kind of the academic background of Kiuciu a reading that we had in class entitled Ethno-Religious Unmixing of Turkey where Kiuciu, in this reading, essentially describes Turkish nationalism as dependent upon being a Muslim So they state that even during the Ottoman Empire, as we think of kind of this multi-ethnic, multi-religious empire that was in some ways pretty progressive for the time at the end of the day, it was still mostly an Islamic identity that Turkey had And he kind of traces the history of that Turkish nationalism, particularly through the 19th century with the rise of European conceptions of nationalism, kind of separating out the Christian Europeans and their independence movements and things like that where, you know, as you start sorting these people, particularly in the Balkans and you start, you know, pushing, you know, Arabs, I'm sorry, not Arabs, but Muslims back into Anatolia and pushing, you know, Christians out there's this sense that even in like a new secular republic, republican Turkey there's this sense that Islam is important to the national identity of the Turk Yeah, and then you have the First World War which comes along and after Turk establishes a new state that tries to remove Islam from the national identity I think about Professor Hintz's A Different Turkish Model in which he identified that challenges to the ruling party, AKP to their tradition of political Islam are viewed as a threat to the AKP's power and so their AKP's goal is to neutralize the secularizing threat and to promote political Islam within the government They learned early on that the military would be a threat to this because they observed in the 1997 coup how the military purged the government of the government and so they took it very slow and steady and by the 2016 coup they had a very good hold over media and were able to really introduce these Islamic nationalist ideas Yeah and reinforce them Certainly Yeah, I mean, I noticed in my movies, again, where I think I had the, you know I was very, I went into this movie watching experience very intentionally looking for, you know, these religious motifs because I felt as though I would identify them and I was very pleasantly unsurprised to find that kind of my thesis was held largely true and that is that, you know, both of the Mountain movies, Mountain 1 and Mountain 2 were incredibly secular, surprisingly so in some regards but essentially religiously agnostic Both movies depicted drinking, swearing, tattoos were prominent and there was even some hints of, like, sexual promiscuity You know, no, like, Hollywood, like, sex scenes or anything like that Yeah But certainly, but, you know, hints at it, right? Like, people sleeping in the same beds out of wedlock and stuff like that And then, you know, on the flip side of that, you know, you post 2 So, you know, both Confidant and Wolf were released in 2018 There were much more overt displays of religious themes Soldiers praying, invoking of the words of the Quran, calls to prayer, things like that What about you? Yeah, it's interesting, you're posting pre-2 analysis So, the Gallipoli movie was released in 2013 Just before 2016 too And there was very, very overt Islamist nationalist themes throughout that movie Which I think the movie makers had a little easier time to get away with Because it is historical And it is true that the Ottoman Empire was religious They did use Islamist motifs throughout their messaging In fact, the First World War was declared a holy war by the Ottoman Empire And the Allies were invading Muslim lands Another really interesting observation I made was in the movie Mandikert I'm going to go back to the translations now Where Sultan Arslan is depicted as an Islamic unifier and state builder at the same time He is very much Islamic and very much nationalist And his Islamic pedigree as a unifier within the world of Islam is shown in contrast Where at the beginning of the movie he has a small army to get them all in formation And he leads them in prayers And then near the end of the movie, after he's done some conquering and builds up a larger army It shows in the same style, him leading prayers, but the army is just vast And they're all on the horizon And there's some editorializing choices in this Because it is true that Arslan is reported to have been a very devout Muslim However, it is also true that Arslan was fighting other Muslims at the same time He was fighting the Fatimid of Egypt, the Rashiya Muslims And that totally undermined his portrayal of him as an Islamic unifier in the movie And so I think they chose to leave that fact out Yeah, totally In contrast, they showed the Byzantine Empire as overly nationalist And I thought this was really interesting Where Arslan is depicted as successfully joining nationalism and Islam in a good way, in a heroic way Whereas the Byzantines are too nationalist Their religion is insincere And it leads to corruption So there's some revisionist storytelling here Where they had the queen of the Byzantine Empire kill the patriarch of the church Because he opposed her plan to install a new emperor for nationalist objectives None of that happens at all But it reinforced this narrative that religion was just for show in the Byzantine Empire And so they were overly nationalist To let them do unethical things Like the new emperor settled behind closed doors for his commanders to kill Christians Or to kill Christians if they opposed the Byzantine Empire Even though they were Christians like us And that was shown as a very disturbing command to give So the main message, nationalism without religion is corrupt And I thought that was really interesting And I think it supports the AKP's view of those two ideologies successfully coexisting in a heroic way So specifically in Wolf, about 30 minutes into the movie There's a call to prayer being played And we've learned in class that the mosque network was used as a public broadcasting service Essentially during the coup of 2016 But there's a specific scene where the muezzin is being played And it's a call to prayer to bring Muslims to the mosques To pray for the dead and the dying from the Bosphorus Bridge massacre And there's a specific carve out where in the dialogue The commander of the force says something to the effect of All true Turks are out and awake and they're mourning the dead And it's emphasizing that the good Turks are the Muslims And these Muslims are the ones that are standing up and fighting the coup There's a religious reference that a pilot makes When she's holding off the coup fighter pilots from refueling And then of course at the end of the movie there's a eulogy And while in uniform a prayer is given on behalf of the fallen members of the Wolf team And again the soldier is in uniform making references to Tehran And then there's discussions of the afterlife And accounting for actions in heaven and things like that Amongst other smaller groups So that I thought was pretty interesting Again no direct connection between nationalism and Islam necessarily But certainly portraying it is a good thing You mentioned that there was an appearance of the Grey Wolves The Wolves organization or ideology Also made an appearance in the Monster movie They depicted the Grey Wolves in the time that they joined Arslan's army And it was interesting the way they were portrayed They were portrayed as particularly savage in battle Yet loyal to Arslan Extremely devoted in an explicitly jihadist way And importantly they were effective for Arslan They were effective for the state I think the way they were portrayed here in this movie In their origin story Lends legitimacy to the modern Grey Wolves movement Discussed in the Journal of Peace In the publication Terrorism and Political Violence About the Grey Wolves and the political violence leading up to 1982 Interesting, that's pretty cool I didn't know that, that's pretty neat man So here we've talked about religious nationalism I saw some interesting things relating to ethnicity in Turkish national identity Did you notice anything like that? Yeah I did So in class one reading stuck out to me on this topic By Isaac And I have to apologize for all my Turkish pronunciations I'm right there with you brother In his speech for Geopolitics of Denial He argued that rather than a relic of the past Denial in this case is looking specifically at that time in the agenda Denial of a state sponsored discourse that tied Turkish sovereignty To the suppression of minority history Let me say that again Denial of a state sponsored discourse that tied Turkish sovereignty To the suppression of minority history And he highlights how neo-Ottomanist ideology under the AKP Has intensified these trends Turning denial into a moral and geopolitical assertion of state legitimacy So with that in mind and watching this Man Decurred movie It was really interesting to see how they portrayed Arslan's relationship with Armenians Because further than just denying the way that Turkish state Has sometimes treated Armenians It totally puts that narrative on its head And depicted Arslan as an Armenian liberator So let me talk about it for a second The movie depicted the Byzantine Empire as Plundering Armenian towns on the edge of the empire Which was common at the time And this is true But there is an editorializing Am I saying that right? Editorializing No, editorializing There you go Oh my gosh Editorializing I'm getting way off track We're running off the rails So this is true But there is editorializing Done by the movement AKP Where they ignored the fact that Arslan's Seljuk Empire was also raiding and pillaging Armenian villages That wasn't depicted at all And there was also a revisionist aspect Of pushing this narrative Where the new Byzantine Emperor Romanov Orders the genocide of Armenian towns Because he had just killed an unloyal Armenian general And he was concerned that the Armenians would rise up against him Because he killed this popular general So he orders these towns to be wiped off the map Which Arslan is able to stop Because he saved the Armenians from the genocide None of this is true And I thought it was a really interesting way To take the Turkish origin story And the relationship with Armenians Given all the controversy around the Armenian Genocide denial today Yeah, for certain It's really interesting, man So my movie didn't talk about Armenia But with The Mountain 2 being set in Iraqi Kurdistan I thought, oh man, this is a great opportunity For this movie to say something about the Kurds And they did, but in a way that was surprising to me Something that I wasn't really expecting So I think for me, I was kind of grounding This idea in some of our studies as well Specifically looking at Yegan And their piece, Prospective Turks or Pseudo-Citizens Where essentially, specifically for Kurds They're talking about how this conception of Turkishness Or how there's a difference between the conception of Turkishness as citizenship Versus Turkishness as such And the Kurds specifically being considered kind of Prospective Turks It left an opening for them to just not be Turks You know, you're kind of conceding that Well, if they're Prospective Turks, then they're not actually Turks And now how, you know, in kind of more modern times They've moved from Prospective Turks into Pseudo-Citizens Where kind of the non-Turk ethnicities, non-Muslims They can't really be Turks Or Islamic Turkic peoples can be And so that speaks to kind of a potentially A desire to bring in more Turkic people to Turkify the nation Remove undesirable Populations, things like that I also found it instructive in looking at these movies Through this like ethnic lens To also kind of look at it through Al Tunisic's and Martin's framework That they outline in Turkey, the Middle East, North Africa under the AKP Where both of my mountain movies were written and filmed During the period they denote like becoming a central state Where Turkey routinely fails to tow the Western Party line There's a notable increase in support of Islamist parties and other governments And the AKP is not necessarily overtly promoting Islam in the military But it speaks to like the secularization of the military And also speaks to like the other rising that we see of like ethnic minorities As Cuyucu brings up an ethnic-religious un-mixing of Turkey So I kind of alluded to this already But in The Mountain 2 I was expecting there to be a comment On some sort of like Turkish commitment to the Kurdish people Because again this movie was written in 2014 and 2015 And this is prior to the breaking down of the BKK and the Turkish ceasefire So I don't know to what extent there were potentially rewrites For this movie before it was produced But there was broad international support for the Kurds in Syria and Northern Iraq Who were fighting against ISIS at the time And this movie is like squarely set in that kind of framework But instead the movie is more of a celebration of like a Turkic identity In some ways feminizing the Kurds The Kurds really only show up, again this is set in Iraqi Kurdistan And the Kurds really only show up once, twice in the movie In two separate characters who you meet at the same time One is a Peshmerga soldier who is dying Incredibly distrustful of these Turkish special forces soldiers that come upon him And somewhat disrespectful, he states like I am not PKK Turk You know like very disrespectfully And then he has a story where he claims that his 80 man Peshmerga unit Was completely wiped out by a battalion of ISIS fighters Who as we find out later in the movie are completely destroyed by 7 Turkish soldiers And so it is like well these unmanly Peshmerga soldiers must not be that great You know if they can't Exactly And then the other Kurd who shows up, again shows up at the same time Her character shows up at the same time as this Peshmerga soldier So she is a young Yazidi woman They come across her, she is being tortured, almost killed by these ISIS soldiers And her clothes are torn and it is very revealing You know like a very low cut shirt And her dress is like slitted all the way up basically to her thigh And so the commander of the Turkish unit is rescuing her And she is like trying to hide herself and things like that So that is again very feminizing You know like kind of depicting things that aren't supposed to be seen So this Kurd is able to have a redemption story However she is depicted as being courageous although inept and bumbling You know where she can't really fire a gun And she is very emotional and things like that But it was interesting that they at least portrayed her So the focus of the film though really is ultimately on the rescuing of a town of Turkmens in Northern Iraq So the Turks travel through Kurdistan, they come upon this village of Turkmen And they decide that well this village of Turkmen is worth saving because they are Turkmen And therefore this is Turkey And so they have raised this big Turkish flag above the town center And they have this big Saving Private Ryan montage of defending the town and things like that But yeah it went from what I was expecting which was some sort of comment on like You know potentially a comment on Turkish Kurdish unity To being no no no Like we are Turks surrounded by Syrian Arabs and Kurds And it is like the Turks that need defending I follow a little bit of that Ethnic The perspective Turk kind of concept Yeah In my Gallipoli movie There was only one ethnic minority to transcend beyond the empire One Albanian soldier And you got to know some context where The setting of this movie is 1914 In 1912, a few years earlier, Albania had declared independence from the Ottoman Empire And this soldier decided to stay loyal to the Ottoman Empire And he was a devout Muslim So when his fellow soldiers, fellow Turkish soldiers, find out these Albanians They are surprised at first But then they realize he made the choice to be loyal to the Ottoman Empire And look at how devout he is So they immediately accept him and there are no issues That is contrasted in the movie with the Allied side Where an Australian commander explicitly tells one of his soldiers I don't trust you as much as the other soldiers because you are of German descent It doesn't matter that we are both Christians And so that was a very overt message That the Islamic state is part of what unifies the Turkish state You can be of different ethnicity as long as you are Islamic And you are loyal to the head of the state And you are one of us, you are accepted Unlike some of these other cultures Right That is interesting I think maybe perhaps a way of concluding I think it is kind of clear from our observations That there is a clear through line of kind of a religious identity Tied up with Turkish nationality and national identity In all the movies we watched Particularly for me like going closer in time Or going past the coup And I think there are some connections to be made With kind of the ethnic makeup Kind of these movies at least kind of portraying Ethnic nationalism as something that is important Like Turks are, Turkey is for Turks But we make some exceptions In the case of like the good people or like the helpful people So would you recommend any of these movies To just like a casual observer Somebody just for a fun watch No, I would You know they are not up to I think many American quality standards With writing and acting in particular I am willing to overlook some of the CGI Or some of the special effects So writing and acting for me Not to mention the very heavy nationalist Islamic theme Prevent me from recommending anyone else to watch it No, there is certainly some like Some you know straight to TV kind of vibes For some of these movies I found The Mountain 2 to be a very compelling movie I felt it was a good action movie Well written And I think it benefited from being like narrowly focused On this like small group of soldiers But yeah the other ones were like yeah A little straight to TV Like a little straight to video kind of quality But awesome man Do you have any final words Thanks everyone for listening Thanks everyone for watching me That's right, awesome Alright, we were Military Motifs We will see you on the next one We are like way over 52 minutes I was watching this thing I was like oh no We are going to be so long That's fair We did, yeah Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, okay That's fair That's fair No We started getting bogged down from the beginning Like when we did our When we did our Our like dress rehearsal if you will Just like a few minutes before We burned through the first Like little section in like four minutes And that was like five and a half So we were all ready We got in here behind our Yeah dude we got in here behind our Behind our professional equipment And we like decided to become professional podcasters Also And just talk Oh I'm glad you like it That's right They're like an hour and a half dude Exactly I need a quick water break And I'm going to take this sweater off And then do you want to start round two Do you have a shirt on No, I do I'll be right back Big five Oh yeah Mine is now I got a window Oh Oh I'm sorry I think he Oh yeah Sorry for picking up in there Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah 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