Carson_001

The conversation is about Turkish war movies and their portrayal of Turkish national identity and military culture. The hosts discuss how these movies are used to shape narratives and appeal to different audiences. They also explore the themes of sacrifice, camaraderie, and the role of religion in Turkish nationalism. They analyze both modern and historical Turkish war movies, focusing on editorial choices and historical revisionism. The discussion touches on the importance of Islam in Turkish national identity and the influence of the ruling party in promoting political Islam. with smoldering eyes that pierced the night's darkness, Sultan Arslan told the Turkish mercenary who was fighting for the Byzantines. I don't spill Turkish blood. But if you betray the state, I will cut your head off. Wow. Great. Very, very cultured. I appreciate that. Absolutely. All right. So, hey, my name is Pete Schlatter. I'm here with Karshan Red. And we are the Military Motifs Podcast. On this episode, we'll be looking at Turkish warmogies, specifically with our central question being, how do Turkish warmogies portray Turkish national identity? And we're trying to explore the military relationship with religion. In my case, I'm going to be sort of locating pre versus post and between the two. And we're also going to take a look at the cultural and ethnic conflicts that you see as previous ones as well. Yeah. So we're interested in this because here at Johns Hopkins we've been taking a class this semester called Conflicts and Cultures in Contemporary Turkey. That's a little bit of a mouthful. But it's been a really great class. We've learned some interesting things, had some good readings that kind of sparked our interest to look into this. Pete? Yeah, certainly. There was one particular by Kaylin on soft power and public diplomacy in Turkey that we talked to, where Kaylin talks about the importance of the media in projecting Turkey's new soft power, where essentially the AKP, the ruling party in Turkey, are trying to take back narrative control of Turkish identity, trying to appeal to different audiences, create a larger audience for their cultural products, which allows them to compete for influence in the region, gives them greater economic opportunities, and certainly influence in the world stage as well. So I think that speaks to why the movies were produced, again, taking back narrative control of Turkey and allowing this new kind of Turkish nationalism, new Ottomanism, to appeal to Turks and other people abroad. Yeah. So having learned that and studied that in a Turkish context, naturally we reflected on what that kind of looks like here in the U.S. and what it's looked like in our personal lives. Pete and I are both in the Army, and we can point to movies that have had outsized influence on the military culture, movies like Black Hawk Down, Saving Private Ryan, The Patriot, a bit of an origin story there, and they teach us themes about sacrifice, camaraderie, the futility of war, also introduce ethical dilemmas. So we wanted to take a look at Turkish war movies and see what the themes they show can tell us about military culture in Turkey. Yeah, and I thought it was really interesting when we were going through these, you know, when I was watching my movies, at least, how much they line, in a sense, with American movies in that regard, where there was certainly the theme throughout of, as you said, camaraderie between soldiers. The whole, you know, the whole, like, Shakespearean, you know, he who sheds his blood today with me shall be my brother. That kind of repletes, as it is in American movies as well. So it's interesting to kind of connect those three lines. I think there's something about military culture that's kind of universal, kind of reality military culture. Yeah, so how did you pick which movies to watch? Yeah, man. So, again, you know, I was focusing kind of on modern movies. I should say, when I say modern movies, I should say movies that depict a modern military. And so that led me to some more popular movies. I was looking at the Mountain series. There's Mountain 1, Mountain 2, produced in 2012, 2015, respectively. Both, importantly, they were both written and principal photography was completed prior to the coup of 2016. And so both of those movies were very popular, very well-respected, in many cases very secular. And we'll go into that in a little more detail later. Then I also looked at the movie Wolf, which would be, you know, the follow-along movie to the episode that special forces military division I saw in class. And then there was also a movie called Confida, which in English is... To Die For. To Die For, thank you. Man, I almost forgot. Thank you. Yeah, To Die For. And so that movie is an interesting story kind of about a fighter pilot who gets shot down kind of behind enemy lines. And it's this amorphous, like coded Arab, but like potentially ISIS, potentially Syrian civil war, but like an amorphous enemy. Okay. How about you? What movies did you watch? Yeah, I focused on two historical movies. The first was Malazgirt 1071. In the English-speaking world, we pronounce it Manzikert. If you're familiar with the Battle of Manzikert, then you know that in 1071 it was a very significant battle, which enabled the Turks to complete, eventually, the conquest of Anatolia over the next few hundred years. This was a top Turkish war movie of 2022, and it's absolutely a Turkish origins myth. And it's told as the foundation for Turkish nationalism, so I thought it would be really interesting to look at how do they portray this story and what foundation are they trying to build Turkish nationalism on. The second movie I focused on was called Gallipoli, End of the Road. This was the top Turkish war movie of 2013. It's about the Battle of Gallipoli in the First World War. Now, the Ottoman Empire lost the First World War, but when Turks remember the First World War, they prefer to think about the Battle of Gallipoli because that was a huge upset, a huge victory against the Allied forces. And the synopsis of this movie is that there are two brothers that leave their mountain village to fight on the front line and hopefully push back the Allies. Very cool. Very cool. How did you structure your analysis? I chose kind of more modern movies. You chose kind of historical Turkish movies. Is there a way, like a lens through which you can do that? Yes. Because mine were historical, I can fact check. You know, it's not a fiction movie where they have total artistic liberty. There are some facts that it's ostensibly based on. And so I was able to categorize my observations in two buckets. First, editorial choices. The movie makers, what did they choose to include out of the available facts? What did they really highlight? What did they choose to not include in order to reinforce a particular narrative? And the second bucket is historical revisionism. What did they just make up in order to reinforce a narrative that has no truth to it at all? What about you, Pete? That's funny. Yeah, so I primarily looked at my movies through a pre-versus posting narrative. I was focusing kind of on the portrayal of different ethnic groups as well in the event that they appeared in any of the movies I analyzed. So I was particularly interested to see how kind of mountain movies versus the accumulator movies will often talk about how they portrayed the military's relationship with religion. There's some interesting takeaways that I felt. But I was also curious to view them. I was also curious to see how the movies took on kind of the various ethnic groups that appeared. And I was in many ways surprised by what I found here. I felt as though I thought I was going to see one thing, and I saw one very separate piece of it. Okay. So what were the main themes that you noticed? Yeah, so I guess first, the first big thing I think I want to talk about is what Ignatius has done. I think my movies, particularly the last two, Confidant and Wolfer, kind of represent religious motifs. And the second thing I noticed, as I kind of mentioned before, was there was this hinting at kind of what the role of ethnicity in Turkey's national identity is. But I think, again, I think there's a little bit more to go on with the religious Islamic nationalism. So I kind of want to start there. And I want to ground this discussion, I think, in kind of the academic background of Pinocchio, a reading that we had in class entitled Ethno-Religious Mixing in Turkey, where Pinocchio, in this reading, essentially describes Turkish nationalism as dependent upon being Muslim. So even during the Ottoman Empire, as we think of kind of this multi-ethnic, multi-religious empire that was in some ways pretty progressive for the time, at the end of the day it was still mostly an Islamic identity that Turkey had. And he kind of traces the history of that Turkish nationalism, particularly through the 19th century with the rise of the European conceptions of nationalism, separating out the Christian Europeans and their independence movements and things like that, where, you know, as you start sorting these people, particularly in the Balkans, and you start, you know, pushing, you know, Arabs – I'm sorry, not Arabs, but Muslims – back into Anatolia and pushing, you know, Christians out, there's this sense that even in, take a new secular republic, Republican Turkey, there's this sense that Islam is important to the national identity of this country. Yeah, and then you have the First World War, which comes along, and Atatürk establishes a new state that tries to remove Islam from the nationalist identity. I think about Professor Hintz's piece, A Different Turkish Model, in which he identified that challenges to the ruling party, AKP, to their tradition of political Islam are viewed as a threat to the AKP's power. And so the AKP's goal is to neutralize those secularizing threats and to promote political Islam within the government. They learned early on that the military would be a threat to this because they observed in the 1997 coup how the military purged the government of Islamists. And so they took it very slow and steady. And by the 2016 coup, they had a very good hold over media and were able to freely introduce these Islamic nationalists' ideas, reinforce them. Certainly. Yeah, I mean, I noticed in my movies, again, where I think I had the, you know, I was very, I went into this movie-watching experience very intentionally looking for, you know, these religious motifs because I felt as though I would identify them. And I was very pleasantly unsurprised to find that kind of my thesis was held largely true. And that is that, you know, both of the Mountain movies, Mountain 1, Mountain 2, were incredibly sexual, surprisingly so in some respects, potentially religiously agnostic. Both movies depicted drinking, swearing, tattoos were prominent. And there was even some hint of, like, sexual promiscuity. You know, nothing like Hollywood, like sex scenes or anything like that. Yeah, dang Hollywood. But certainly, but, you know, hint at it, right? Like, people sleeping in the same bed, what have you, stuff like that. And then, you know, on the flip side of that, you know, post-coup, so, you know, both Campidon and Wolf were released in 2018, there were much more overt displays of religious themes, soldiers praying, invoking of the words of the Koran, call to prayer, things like that. Yeah, it's interesting, your post- and pre-coup analysis. So the Gallipoli movie was released in 2013, before the 2016 coup. And there was very, very overt Islamic nationalist themes throughout that movie, which I think the movie makers had a little easier time to get away with, because it is historical. And it is true that the Ottoman Empire was religious. They did use Islamic motifs throughout their messaging. In fact, the First World War was declared a holy war by the Ottoman Empire, and the Allies were infidels invading Muslim lands. Another really interesting observation I made was in the movie Manzikert, or Malazgirt, I always go back and forth between these pronunciations now, where Sultan Arsalan is depicted as an Islamic unifier and state builder at the same time. He is very much Islamic and very much nationalist. And his Islamic pedigree as a unifier within the world of Islam is shown in contrast, where at the beginning of the movie he has a small army. He gets them all in formation, and he leads them in prayers. And then near the end of the movie, after he's done some conquering and he's built up a larger army, it shows in the same style him leading prayers, but the army is just vast, you know, almost to the horizon. And there's some editorializing choices in this, because it is true that Arsalan is recorded to have been a very devout Muslim. However, it is also true that Arsalan was fighting other Muslims at the same time. He was fighting the Fatimids out of Egypt who were Shia Muslims, and that totally undermines this portrayal of him as an Islamic unifier in the movie. And so I think they chose to leave that fact out. In contrast, they showed the Byzantine Empire as overly nationalist, and I thought this was really interesting, where Arsalan is depicted as successfully joining nationalism and Islam in a good way, in a heroic way, whereas the Byzantines are too nationalist. Their religion is insincere, and it leads to corruption. So there's some revisionist storytelling here, where they had the queen of the Byzantine Empire kill the patriarch of the church because he opposed her plan to install a new emperor for nationalist objectives. None of that happened at all, but it reinforced this narrative that religion was just for show in the Byzantine Empire. They were overly nationalist, which led them to do unethical things, like the new emperor told behind closed doors for his commanders to kill Christians, or to kill Christians if they opposed the Byzantine Empire, even though they were Christians like us, and that was shown as a very disturbing command to give. So the main message, nationalism without religion is corrupt. I thought that was really interesting. It really supports the AKP's view of those two ideologies successfully coexisting in a heroic way. Yeah, certainly. Wow, that's pretty powerful stuff. For me, my movies weren't quite that specific in aligning church, nationalism, and religion. However, they were still quite – it was definitely representative, in the sense that – so specifically in The Wolf, about 30 minutes into the movie, there's a call to prayer being played, and we've learned in class that the mosque network is used as a public broadcasting service during the coup of 2015. There's a specific scene where the Muslim is being played, a call to prayer to bring Muslims to the mosques to pray for the dead and the dying, from the Bosporus Bridge. And there's a specific part of that where, in the dialogue, the commander of the force says something to the effect of, all true Turks are out and awake, and they're mourning the dead, and it's emphasizing that the good Turks are the Muslims, and these Muslims are the ones that are standing up and fighting the coup. There's a religious reference a pilot makes when she's holding off the coup, the coup fighter pilots from revealing. And then, of course, at the end of the movie, there's a eulogy, and while in uniform, a prayer is given on behalf of the fallen, the fallen members of the Muslim team. And again, the soldier is in uniform, making references to Tehran, and then there's discussion of the afterlife and accounting for actions in heaven and things like that amongst the other soldiers. So that, I thought, was pretty interesting. Again, no, like, correct connection between, you know, nationalism and the Turks necessarily, but certainly portraying it there is a good thing. Oh, yeah, for sure. You mentioned that there was an appearance of the Gray Wolves, the Wolves organization, their ideology, also made an appearance in the Manzikert movie. They depicted the Gray Wolves in the time that they joined Arslan's army. And it was interesting the way they were portrayed. They were portrayed as particularly savage in battle, yet loyal to Arslan, extremely devout in an explicitly jihadist way, and importantly they were effective for Arslan. They were effective for the state. And I think the way they were portrayed here in this movie, in their origin story, lends legitimacy to the modern Gray Wolves movement, discussed in Grimruck's piece in the publication Terrorism and Political Violence about the Gray Wolves and the political violence leading up to the 1982 coup. Interesting. Yeah, that was pretty cool. I didn't know that. So, you know, here we talk about, you know, religious nationalism. I saw some interesting things related to ethnicity in Turkish National Endowment. Yeah, me too. Yeah, I did. So in class, one reading stuck out to me on this topic by Tunç Aybek. I have to apologize for all my Turkish pronunciations. I'm right there with you, brother. In his piece, Geopolitics of Denial, where he argued that rather than a relic of the past, and in this case he was looking specifically at the Armenian Genocide, denial is a state-sponsored discourse that ties Turkish sovereignty to the suppression of minority histories. Let me say that again. Denial is a state-sponsored discourse that ties Turkish sovereignty to the suppression of minority histories. And he highlights how neo-Ottomist ideology under the AKP has intensified these trends, turning denial into a moral and geopolitical assertion of state legitimacy. So with that in mind and watching this Manzikert movie, it was really interesting to see how they portrayed Arslan's relationship with Armenians, because further than just denying the way that Turkish state has sometimes treated Armenians, it totally flips that narrative on its head and depicted Arslan as an Armenian liberator. So let me talk about it for a second. The movie depicted the Byzantine Empire as plundering Armenian towns on the edge of the empire, which was common at the time, and this is true, but there is an editorializing done by the movie-making team where they ignored the fact that Arslan's Seljuk Empire was also raiding and pillaging Armenian villages. That wasn't depicted at all. And there was also a revisionist aspect of pushing this narrative where the new Byzantine Emperor Romanov orders the genocide of Armenian towns because he had just killed an unloyal Armenian general, and he was concerned that the Armenians would rise up against him because he killed this popular general. So he orders these towns to be wiped off the map, which Arslan is able to stop, and he saves the Armenians from genocide. None of this is true, and I thought it was a really interesting way to depict the Turkish origin story and the relationship with Armenians, given all the controversy around the Armenian genocide denial today. Yeah, for certain. That's really interesting, man. So my movies didn't talk about Armenia, but with The Mountain 2 being set in Iraqi Kurdistan, I thought, oh man, this is a great opportunity for this movie to say something about the Kurds. And they did, but in a way that was surprising to me, something that I wasn't really expecting. So I think for me, I was kind of grounding this idea in some of our studies as well, specifically looking at Yegan, and their piece Perspective Turks or Pseudo-Citizens, where essentially, specifically for Kurds, it's talking about how this conception of Turkishness, or how there's a difference between the conception of Turkishness as citizenship versus Turkishness as such, and the Kurds specifically being considered kind of Perspective Turks, it left an opening for them to just not be Turks. You're kind of conceding that, well, if they're Perspective Turks, then they're not actually Kurds. And now how in more modern times, they've moved from Perspective Turks into Pseudo-Citizens, where kind of the non-Turk ethnicity, non-Muslim, they can't really be Turks, but other Islamic Turkic peoples can be. And so that speaks to kind of a potentially, say, desire to bring more Turkic people to Turks by the Nation, or even a desire for co-opulation, things like that. I also found it instructive in looking at these movies through this ethnic lens, to also kind of look at it through Al-Qamishli's and Martin's frameworks that they outlined in Turkey, the Middle East, and Afghanistan, as AKPs, where both of my Mountain movies were written and filmed during the period they didn't know, like, becoming a central state, where Turkey routinely fails to toe the Western party line, there's a notable increase in support of Islamist parties and other governments, and the AKP is not necessarily overtly promoting Islam in the military, but it speaks to the secularization of the military, and it also speaks to the other rising that we see of ethnic minorities, as it brings up an ethnic religion subject in Turkey. So I kind of alluded to this already, but in The Mountain 2, I was expecting there to be a comment on some sort of Turkish coming into the Kurdish people, because again, this movie was written in 2014 and 2015, and this was prior to the breaking down of the PKK and the Turkish ceasefire, so I don't know to what extent there were potentially rewrites for this movie, but there was broad international support for the Kurds in Syria and northern Iraq, who were fighting ISIS at the time, and this movie is squarely set in that kind of framework. But instead, the movie is more of a celebration of a Turkic identity, in some ways, feminizing the Kurds. The Kurds really only show up, and again, this is set in Iraqi Kurdistan, right? The Kurds really only show up once, twice in the movie, in two separate characters who you meet at the same time. One is a Peshmerga soldier who's dying, incredibly distrustful of these Turkish special forces soldiers that come upon him, somewhat disrespectful. He states, like, I'm not PKK Turk, very disrespectfully. And then he has a story where he claims that his 80-man Peshmerga unit was completely wiped out by the coming of ISIS fighters, who, as we find out later in the movie, are completely destroyed by seven Turkish soldiers. So it's like, well, these unmanly Peshmerga soldiers must not be that great. Yeah, there's a natural superiority to the Turks. Exactly. And then the other Kurd who shows up, she again shows up at the same time, and her character shows up at the same time as this Peshmerga soldier. So she's a young Yazidi woman. They come across her, and she's being tortured, almost killed by these ISIS soldiers. And her clothes are torn, and it's very revealing. It's like a very low-cut shirt. Her dress is slitted all the way up, basically, to her thigh. And so the commander of the Turkish unit is rescuing her, and she's trying to hide herself and things like that. So that's, again, very feminizing, kind of depicting things that aren't supposed to be seen. So this Kurd is able to have a redemption story. However, she's depicted as being courageous, although inept and bumbling, where she can't really fire a gun, and she has very emotional things like that. But it was interesting that they at least portrayed her. So the focus of the film, though, really is ultimately on the rescuing of the town of Turkmen in northern Iraq. So the Turks travel through Kurdistan. They come upon this village of Turkmen, and they decide that, well, this village of Turkmen is worth saving because they are Turkmen, and therefore, this is Turkey. And so they have this big Turkish flag up in the town center, and they have this big Sagan-Private Ryan montage of defending the town and things like that. But yeah, it went from what I was expecting, which was some sort of comment on, potentially a comment on Turkish-Kurdish unity. No, no, no. We are Turks surrounded by a sea of Arabs and Kurds, and it is the Turks that need defending. I saw a little bit of that ethnic perspective Turk kind of concept in my Gallipoli movie where there was only one ethnic minority portrayed within the Ottoman Empire as one Albanian soldier. And you got to know some context where the setting of this movie is 1914. In 1912, two years earlier, Albania had declared independence from the Ottoman Empire, and this soldier decided to stay loyal to the Ottoman Empire, and he was a devout Muslim. So when his fellow soldiers, fellow Turkish soldiers, find out he's Albanian, they're surprised at first, but then they realize, but he made the choice to be loyal to the Ottoman Empire, and look at how devout he is. So they immediately accept him, and then there are no issues. That is contrasted in the movie with the Allied side where an Australian commander explicitly tells one of his soldiers, I don't trust you as much as the other soldiers because you're of German descent. It doesn't matter that we're both Christians. That was a very overt message that the Islamic faith is part of what unifies the Turkish state. You can be a different ethnicity as long as you're Islamic and you are loyal to the head of the state, then you are one of us. You're accepted, unlike some of these other cultures. That's interesting. I think maybe perhaps a way of concluding, I think it's kind of clear from our observation, but there's a clear through line of kind of a religious identity tied up with Turkish nationality and nationality in all the movies we watch, particularly for me, like going closer in time or going past the true. I think there are some connections between maybe kind of the ethnic makeup, kind of these movies at least kind of portraying ethnic nationalism as something that's important. Like Turks are, Turkey is for Turks. Oh, makes more sense. In case of like the good people or like the bad people. Right. So would you recommend any of these movies to just like a casual viewer, somebody just for a fun watch? No, I don't think I would. They're not up to I think many Americans' quality standards with writing and acting in particular. I'm willing to overlook some hokey CGI or some hokey special effects, but the writing and acting for me, not to mention the very heavy nationalist Islamic themes, prevent me from recommending anyone else watch it. Yeah, no, there are certainly some like straight to TV kind of vibes for some of these movies. I found The Mountain 2 to be a very compelling movie. I felt it was a good action movie, well written, and I think it benefited from being very narrowly focused on the small groups of soldiers. But, yeah, the other ones were like, yeah, a little straight to TV, like a little straight to video kind of quality. Awesome. Do you have any final words? Thanks, everyone, for listening. Now you don't have to watch the movies. You got all you need to know. That's right. Awesome. All right. We were North Rim with you. We'll see you on the next one. We were like way over. I know. I didn't have the timer in front of me, but I just knew. Yeah, I was watching it tonight. I was like, oh, no, we are going to be so long. Yeah, whole minutes, though? It was more like 30 seconds. Yeah, yeah. I think, Pete, where it started to get bogged down, when you were talking about the woman who was saved, I think you could skip that. We still have everything. That's fair. But I don't think that was 10 minutes long. It might have been four. We started getting bogged down from the beginning. Like when we did our direct rehearsal, if you will, just like a few minutes before, we burned through the first little section in like four minutes, and that was like five and a half. So we were all too loosey-goosey. Yeah, dude, we got in here behind our professional equipment, and we decided we were professional podcasters. Oh, good. This is why podcasts are such long formats. That's right. Because it's so easy to just blabber on. Exactly. I need a quick water break. I'm going to take this sweater off, and then do you want to start round two? Do you have a shirt on? I need a sweater. No. Okay. All right. Let's take five. Oh, yeah. I've got a big deal. Oh. I'm going to give you two minutes. I'm just going to move that out. Yeah. What were you going to say? I'm sorry, dude. Yeah, man. See you soon. Okay. Dude, there's been a water break. Oh. All right. I don't want to go in. That's easy. Yeah. Oh, great. Yeah. So, what was my long section about? Was it about the Armenians or the disingenuine religion is a problem? I think that was what it was. Okay. So, I'm going to take my sweater off, and then I'm going to sit in my house and stuff. That would be my conference. Okay. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. 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