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Yeah, I was just wondering, are there any recurring themes you see in Utopia? Yes. I would say the power males have over females is a recurring theme in the novel. Specifically, Sofinka has used two main strategies to highlight this power discrepancy. First, the objectification of women, and secondly, the withholding of information. That's interesting. Could you dive deeper into the first strategy that you identified? Of course. In Utopia, it is clear there is a power dynamic at play where the male characters have more power over the female characters. One way this power is conveyed is through the objectification of women. For example, when Rami is recalling a conversation that she had with Jude about her artwork, he says, quote, Riddle, why haven't women made great works of art? Answer, because they are great works of art. This statement is a clear and explicit example of how the women in the story are objectified and reduced to just objects rather than recognized for their work and their skill. In Utopia, Sofinka uses the male artists like foil characters to highlight the differences in how society treats women versus men. While Billy is constantly praised and recognized for his work, the opposite is true for Rami, arguably one of the best and most innovative female artists. At some point, Rami highlights how the fallen works that Billy was credited with would not be recognized if they knew she was the one who created them. Similarly, Red Gets Her Art returned to her when the buyer learns a woman created it. These incidents show how the same work would be honored and respected if it belonged to a male artist, but would go unrecognized if a female artist created it. The direct contrast helps illustrate that treatment of women isn't a product of how all artists are treated, but instead how female artists are treated. There leaves no room for ambiguity. These examples highlight the discrepancies in how society recognizes men for their work, whereas female artists are recognized for their body and their looks. By including Rami's experiences, Sofinka helps the reader better understand the unequal and unfair treatment of women at the time due to their objectification, and more broadly, the power men hold over women in Utopia. That's a really great example. This example was quite explicit and direct. Were there any strategies and examples Sofinka used to convey the power male characters had in the book over female characters, specifically related to the objectification of women? Yes. Throughout the novel, Sofinka also utilizes subtext to convey the objectification of women. When Rami is visiting Billy and Ron, she writes in her journal, quote, I knew I would always be taken by his long body and the electric thing he gave off. I wanted to highlight the language Sofinka uses here, as she uses the word take. Traditionally, the word take is used when describing the attainment of an object, but here Sofinka uses it with reference to Billy, taking her body. Yeah, I never considered the various interpretations of words that are chosen. Yeah, another example is in her journal entry. She also states, he puts his hands on my hips and kissed my open mouth, and the sensation was so extreme I felt like I was choking. Sofinka's use of kiss my open mouth, instead of I opened my mouth to kiss him, conveys the message that Billy is doing whatever he wants with Rami's body, almost like how you would manipulate a doll. Normally, kissing is seen as an intimate, gentle act. However, she felt like she was choking, indicating how the way she was kissed was almost suffocating, as Billy reduced her body down to an object and manipulated it as such to his desires. Sofinka uses subtext and nuance when she uses the words take and kiss my open mouth to hint at objectification without stating it clearly, constantly displaying the underlying tones and viewpoints the characters in the book have of women without overwhelming readers by explicitly repeating the meaning and objectifying the statements. Overall, Sofinka uses a combination of explicit and implicit methods throughout the novel to highlight the power males have in the book by objectifying women and failing to give them the recognition for their work that they would otherwise give a male. Interesting. You also mentioned the withholdment of information as a power move in the story earlier. Could you dive deeper into that? Of course. Another prevalent theme that I noticed that reinforces the power dynamics in the book is the withholdment of information. Paz states, Billy and her started taking trips inland towards the desert. Paz never knew where they were going. He wouldn't tell her. Billy knows where they are headed. He is the driver after all, but chooses to leave Paz in the dark despite her desire to know where they are going. This is a form of power at play where Billy has access to information and limits this information to Paz. Sofinka has not only chosen to express this withholdment of power explicitly, but also symbolically here. Specifically, she uses the car to highlight Billy's power and control over Paz. Billy is the driver, and traditionally the person in the driver's seat gets to control where they go whereas passengers are more submissive and are subject to the driver's decisions. Paz, the passenger, must wait until they arrive to find out where he decides to go. Sofinka's use of explicitly stating he wouldn't tell her in a symbolic representation of the driver versus the passenger reinforces the power and control Billy has over Paz, and control is key in a power-dynamic relationship. Interesting. Was there anything else that you wanted to highlight? Yes. I wanted to highlight one particular word choice from Sofinka. Billy had just arrived home from Rome, and Paz is thinking, how can she explain to him that the six weeks he's been gone were frozen in time, hours from long and full of waiting? But soon after, states, she does everything he wants. She is devotional. She forgets about her hand. Billy had just arrived home after six weeks in Rome, with minimal communication with Paz, aside from one-word postcards he sends her for his art piece, Consumption Piece. The use of her hand is an explicit reference to her injured hand, but can also be interpreted as an analogy to poker. In poker, your hand is a card deck. Your ability to win and control a game is dependent on how you manipulate those cards. When Paz says she forgets about her hand, it's a subtle reference to her forgetting her argument, and her anger towards Billy. She has chosen to suppress what she wants to say, and accepts this treatment from him. This is a reference to her losing her power, and Billy gaining it, despite the fact that he was the one who wronged her. She loses her play. She loses her shot at telling Billy how she truly felt about his departure, as one might lose their hand in poker. Paz does not feel that she can get her point across, since, just before this, Billy fails to give her the reassurance she was looking for by just explaining how she felt when Billy wasn't wrong, but instead suggests having sex. Sapinka's use of lose their hand serves as a double meaning for her hand and her lost power to Billy. Excellent observation. It is interesting diving deeper into the hidden meanings Sapinka has incorporated into the text. Thanks. Now to move on to our next segment of our podcast. Brianne, what topics will you be focusing on today? Yeah, I'm going to be focusing on how gender in Sapinka's utopia is depicted as a contradicting force that both unites and divides people in work, family, and greater society. What do you think about the depiction of gender? I think gender was a major focus of Sapinka's utopia, because the main characters are women, and we are provided with intimate narratives through reading characters' journals and DVDs. I think gender is also a major focus of Sapinka's utopia, because the main characters are women, and we are provided with intimate narratives through reading characters' journals and DVDs. Although the novel primarily focuses on women in the art scene, we see other aspects of their life as well, and how gender plays an important role. For example, we see Romy's deepest thoughts about how she didn't want to become a woman during puberty, and even referred to it as something she was, quote, doomed to experience. As the novel progresses, we see how Romy saw her gender as a bad thing, and she wanted to escape it. Because she knew it was a large part of how people perceived her, even if she didn't want it as part of her personal identity. Romy writes in her journal that many men thought she was around them because she wanted their attention, when in reality, Romy explained she wanted to be like the men. In addition to this intimate narrative from Romy, readers also learn about Paz's deepest emotions pertaining to gender. This is seen through Paz's deep admiration and love for Romy, but inability to express it because their genders kept them apart and prevented their relationship. Paz's love for Romy is demonstrated when she explains being obsessed by her, and only interested in Billy. Although readers see this love, Paz does not vocalize her feelings, and even denies it when her best friend Esa asks if Paz is interested in Billy. Through the narrative, we see how other female characters were painfully aware of harm caused by the male gaze, and how their objectification harmed them and their art. The male gaze, through the novel, not only harms the women's well-being, but also creates a divide between the woman's well-being and the man's well-being. The male gaze, through the novel, not only harms the woman's well-being, but also creates a divide between the woman's well-being and the man's well-being. The male gaze, through the novel, not only harms the woman's well-being, but also creates a divide between the woman's well-being and the man's well-being. Excellent observation. Are there any examples of this in the story that you identified? Yeah, there are quite a few ways that Pinke shows this divide. For example, male artists are always just called artists, while female artists are always called female artists or women art. And Paz explains her desire to drop the adjective and have less of a divide in competition between the artists in order to survive. The objectification is also seen when women are scoffed at for creating art, because the men view them as the art. Another example is when Paz was the subject of Cotton's art piece, where he threw matches onto her body. Following the art demonstration, she received very little thanks or treatment for her wounds, reflecting how women are treated like the objects of the art, and the men can succeed in the art world easier than they can. Romy also explains how men's objectification of women within the art world perpetuates a division between the women. For example, Romy is seen discussing art with a man named Milt, who claims he doesn't work with women often unless they are, quote, the other kind of women, like Romy is. This statement not only divides other women and their art, but also creates a divide between Romy and the other women she's around. Okay, and how does the role of gender apply to the relationships between women? The male gaze and subsequent objectification also leads to the female characters objectifying themselves and the women around them. This means that gender becomes a negative force in the novel, because even with similar genders and experiences, there is a division. This is especially true for the women trying to succeed in the art world they are excluded from. The divide is seen through Fina stealing S's pocket-length art idea, how women judge each other's art, or the belief that conventionally beautiful women, like Romy, have it easy, diminishing all of their hard work. Even though the female artists are all in the same situation, struggling to share their art in a male-dominated world, they are pitted against each other in order to survive and see the other women as enemies. The division is also seen within the spaces the women try to share. For example, the art parties always have some form of conflict going on, and even within the feminist group, where they are united with the hopes for equality, they are divided into groups with varying beliefs. Could you expand more on the arguments between the female artists? Of course. With these frequent arguments, many would call them catfights, or something to devalue the severity of the situations, but this just shows that the women are constantly fighting to be taken seriously, so there's no option but to view the other women as competition. The men have the privilege of being seen as individuals, while women are constantly clumped together. The arguments between the groups also appears to be rooted in the constant objectification of women. Females have been infantilized and objectified throughout history, which creates an inevitable generational tendency to objectify themselves and others. Sapinka portrays Paz's self-objectification following the loss of her finger, and how it made her, quote, grotesque, and not all women, reflecting how Paz placed much of her identity and femininity in her physicality. Aside from the art, are there any other areas women compare themselves? Yes. Another place we can see this comparison and competition is through the discourse of the good mother. For example, Esa worries that she is not a good mother because she doesn't have the same picturesque parenting experience society fixates on. And Paz also struggles because she compares her parenting to Romi, and wonders if she's making the right choices. Overall, Sapinka portrays gender as a negative force in the novel because it causes competition between men and women, and creates a division between women who should be working together against a patriarchy.