Final Utopia Podcast with Introduction (Brianne, Cindy, Marilena)

This is a podcast episode discussing Heidi Sopinka's novel Utopia. The main character, Paz, takes on the life of her presumed dead friend Romy and learns about her art. The episode explores the themes of power and competition, specifically how male characters objectify women and withhold information. The hosts discuss explicit and implicit examples of objectification, such as the objectification of women's bodies and the manipulation of Paz by Billy. They also analyze the power dynamic created through the withholding of information. The episode concludes with a discussion on how gender is depicted as both a unifying and dividing force in the novel. Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, folks. Welcome to Femnist Pages, freeing voices bound by paper, where we delve into new literary finds, narrow in on fem voices, and explore a wide range of intersectional identities. My name is Marilena Chiara, and I am your host. Are you ready to embark on a journey of knowledge, entertainment, and feminism in literature? Then y'all are tuning in to the right place. In each episode, we delve into thought-provoking works, feature expert guests, and share hot takes that will expand your literary horizons. Our aim is to leave you with a fresh perspective and a thirst for toppling the patriarchy. Today's episode is highlighting Heidi Sopinka's Utopia, a gripping novel set in the 1970s LA art scene, with a main character who is an artist herself. This piece starts out with a young, newly married artist named Paz, who has taken over the life of her presumably dead friend, Romy. Throughout the book, we read Paz's journey to learning more and more about the late Romy and what her art meant to her. Paz takes on the conflicting roles of mother, wife, artist, and friend. We see how Paz battles with these identities, and how Romy, whom Paz seems to idolize, struggles with this too. Here to dive in with us today is Cindy and Brianne, our regular guests. Over to y'all! Hey everyone! Yeah, hi guys! Hey y'all! Welcome to the pod! Thanks for having us! Yeah, I'm super excited for what we're going to talk about today. Do y'all want to introduce our topic? Definitely. We'll be focusing on the portrayal of gender and how that impacts the larger themes of the novel, specifically themes of power and competition in the story. Over to you, Brianne. Yeah, I was just wondering, are there any recurring themes you see in Utopia? Yes, I would say that the power males have over females is a recurring theme in the novel, specifically, Sopinka has used two main strategies to highlight this power discrepancy. First, the objectification of women, and secondly, the withholdment of information. That's interesting. Could you dive deeper into the first strategy that you identified? Of course. In Utopia, it is clear that there is a power dynamic at play, where the male characters have more power over the female characters. One way this power is conveyed is through the objectification of women. For example, when Rami is recalling a conversation that she had with Juke about her artwork, he says, quote, Riddle, why haven't women made great works of art? Answer, because they are great works of art. The statement is a clear and explicit example of how the women in the story are objectified and reduced to just objects rather than recognized for their work and their skill. In Utopia, Sopinka uses the male artists like foil characters to highlight the differences in how society treats women versus men. Whereas Billy is constantly praised and recognized for his work, the opposite is true for Rami, arguably one of the best and most innovative female artists. At some point, Rami highlights how the falling works that Billy was credited with would not be recognized if they knew she was the one who created them. Similarly, Red gets her art returned to her when the buyer learns a woman created it. These incidents show how the same work would be honored and respected if it belonged to a male artist, but would go unrecognized if a female artist created it. The direct contrast helps illustrate that the treatment of women isn't a product of how all artists are treated, but instead how female artists were treated. It leaves no room for ambiguity. These examples highlight the discrepancies in how society recognizes men for their work, whereas female artists are recognized for their body and their looks. By including Rami's experiences, Sopinka helps the reader better understand the unequal and unfair treatment of women at the time through their objectification, and more broadly, the power men hold over women in Utopia. That's a really great example. This example is quite explicit and direct. Were there any strategies and examples Sopinka used to convey the power male characters have in the book over female characters, specifically related to the objectification of women? Yes, throughout the novel, Sopinka also utilizes subtext to convey the objectification of women. When Rami is visiting Billy and Ram, she writes in her journal, I knew I would always be taken by his long body and the electric thing he gave off. I wanted to highlight the language Sopinka uses here, as she uses the word take. Traditionally, the word take is used when describing the attainment of an object, but here Sopinka uses it with reference to Billy taking her body. Yeah, I never considered the various interpretations of words that are chosen. Yeah, another example is in her journal entry. She also states, he put his hands on my hips and kissed my open mouth, and the sensation was so extreme I felt like I was choking. Sopinka's use of kiss my open mouth instead of I open my mouth to kiss him conveys the message that Billy is doing whatever he wants with Rami's body, almost like how you would manipulate a doll. Normally, kissing is seen as an intimate, gentle act. However, she felt like she was choking, indicating how the way she was kissed was almost suffocating, as Billy reduced her body down to an object and manipulated it as such to his desires. Sopinka uses subtext and nuance when she uses the words take and kiss my open mouth to hint at objectification without stating it clearly, constantly displaying the underlying tones and viewpoints the characters in the book have of women without overwhelming readers by explicitly repeating the meaning and objectifying statements. Overall, Sopinka uses a combination of explicit and implicit methods throughout the novel to highlight the power males have in the book by objectifying women and failing to give them the recognition for their work that they would otherwise give a male. Interesting. You also mentioned the withholdment of information as a power move in this story earlier. Could you dive deeper into that? Of course. Another prevalent theme that I noticed that reinforces the power dynamic in the book is the withholdment of information. Paz states, Billy and her started taking trips inland towards the desert. Paz never knew where they were going. He wouldn't tell her. Billy knows where they are headed. He is the driver, after all, but chooses to leave Paz in the dark, despite her desire to know where they are going. This is a form of power at play where Billy has access to information and limits this information to Paz. Sopinka has not only chosen to express this withholdment of power explicitly, but also symbolically here. Specifically, she uses the car to highlight Billy's power and control over Paz. Billy is the driver, and traditionally the person in the driver's seat has to control where they go, whereas passengers are more submissive and are subject to the driver's decisions. Paz, the passenger, must wait until they arrive to find out where he decided to go. Sopinka's use of explicitly stating he wouldn't tell her and the symbolic representation of the driver versus the passenger reinforces the power and control Billy has over Paz, and control is key in a power-dynamic relationship. Interesting. Was there anything else that you wanted to highlight? Yes. I wanted to highlight one particular word choice from Sopinka. Billy had just arrived home from Ron, and Paz is thinking, how can she explain to him that the six weeks he's been gone were frozen in time, hours from Ron, and full of waiting? End quote. But soon after, states, she does everything he wants. She is devotional. She forgets about her hand. Billy had just arrived home after six weeks in Ron, with minimal communication with Paz, aside from one-word postcards he sends her for his art piece, Consumption Piece. The use of her hand is an explicit reference to her injured hand, but can also be interpreted as an analogy to poker. In poker, your hand is the card deck. Your ability to win and control the game is dependent on how you manipulate those cards. When Paz says she forgets about her hand, it's a thorough reference to her forgetting her argument, and her anger towards Billy. She has chosen to suppress what she wants to say, and accepts this treatment from him. This is a reference to her losing her power, and Billy gaining it, despite the fact that he was the one who wronged her. She loses her play. She loses her shot at telling Billy how she truly felt about his departure, as one might lose their hand in poker. Paz does not feel that she can get her point across, since, just before this, Billy fails to give her the reassurance she was looking for, when she was explaining how she felt when Billy wasn't wrong, but instead suggests having sex. Topeka's use of lose their hand serves as a double meaning for her hand, and her lost power to Billy. Excellent observation. It is interesting diving deeper into the hidden meanings Topeka has incorporated into the text. Thanks. Now to move on to the next segment of our podcast. Brianne, what topics will you be focusing on today? I will be looking at how gender in Topeka's utopia is depicted as a contradicting force that both unites and divides people and work, family, and greater society. What do you think about the depiction of gender? I think gender was a major focus of Topeka's utopia, because the main characters are women, and we are provided with intimate narratives through reading characters' journals and deepest thoughts. Although the novel primarily focuses on women in the art scene, we see other aspects of their life as well, and how gender plays an important role. For example, we see Romy's deepest thoughts about how she didn't want to become a woman during puberty, and even referred to it as something she was, quote, doomed to experience. As the novel progresses, we see how Romy saw her gender as a bad thing, and she wanted to escape it, because she knew it was a large part of how people perceived her, even if she didn't want it as part of her personal identity. Romy writes in her journal that many men thought she was around them because she wanted their attention, when in reality, Romy explained she wanted to be like the men. In addition to this intimate narrative from Romy, readers also learn about Paz's deepest emotions pertaining to gender. This is seen through Paz's deep admiration and love for Romy, but inability to express it because their genders kept them apart and prevented their relationship. Paz's love for Romy is demonstrated when she explains being obsessed by her, and only interested in Billy. Although readers see this love, Paz does not vocalize her feelings, and even denies it when her best friend Esa asks if Paz is in love with Romy. That is a great connection to how gender is a focus because of the intimate gendered narratives. I wonder, how are the differences between men and women depicted? Through the narrative, we see how other female characters were painfully aware of harm caused by the male gaze, and how their objectification harmed them and their art. The male gaze through the novel not only harms the women's well-being, but also creates a divide between the women in the art world. Excellent observation. Are there any examples of this in the story that you identified? Yeah, there are quite a few ways to think it shows this divide. For example, male artists are always just called artists, while female artists are always called female artists or women art. And Paz explains her desire to drop the adjective and have less of a divide and competition between the artists in order to survive. The objectification is also seen when women are scoffed at for creating art, because the men view them as the art. Another example is when Paz was the subject of Cotton's art piece, where he threw matches onto her body. Following the art demonstration, she received very little thanks or treatment for her wounds, reflecting how women are treated like the objects of the art, and the men can succeed in the art world easier than they can. Romy also explains how men's objectification of women within the art world perpetuates the division between the women. For example, Romy is seen discussing art with a man named Milt, who claims he doesn't work with women often unless they are, quote, the other kind of women, like Romy is. This statement not only divides other women and their art, but also creates a divide between Romy and the other women she's around. Okay, and how does the role of gender apply to the relationships between women? The male gaze and subsequent objectification also leads to the female characters objectifying themselves and the women around them. This means that gender becomes a negative force in the novel, because even with similar genders and experiences, there is a division. This is especially true for the women trying to succeed in the art world they are excluded from. The divide is seen through Fina stealing Essa's pocket-lint art idea, how women judge each other's art, or the belief that conventionally beautiful women, like Romy, have it easy, diminishing all of their hard work. Even though the female artists are all in the same situation, struggling to share their art in a male-dominated world, they are pitted against each other in order to survive and see the other women as enemies. The division is also seen within the spaces the women try to share. For example, the art parties always have some form of conflict going on, and even within the feminist group, where they are united with the hopes for equality, they are divided into groups with varying beliefs. Could you expand more on the arguments between the female artists? Of course. With these frequent arguments, many would call them catfights, or something to devalue the severity of the situations, but this just shows that the women are constantly fighting to be taken seriously, so there is no option but to view the other women as competition. The men have the privilege of being seen as individuals, while women are constantly clumped together. The arguments between the groups also appears to be rooted in the constant objectification of women. Females have been infantilized and objectified throughout history, which creates an inevitable generational tendency to objectify themselves and others. Sapinka portrays Paz's self-objectification following the loss of her finger, and how it made her, quote, grotesque and not all women, reflecting how Paz placed much of her identity and femininity in her physicality. Aside from the art, are there any other areas women compare themselves? Yes, another place we can see this comparison and competition is through the discourse of the good mother. For example, Esa worries that she is not a good mother because she doesn't have the same picturesque parenting experience society fixates on, and Paz also struggles because she compares her parenting to Romi and wonders if she's making the right choices. Overall, Sapinka portrays gender as a negative force in the novel because it causes competition between men and women and creates a division between women who should be working together against the patriarchy. All right, folks, that's all the time we have today. We delve deeper into the portrayal of gender and Sapinka's use of power, competition, and more. This book provides meaningful reflections on the historical treatment of women in personal and professional settings. Although there has been much improvement since the 1970s, backed up in this novel, there's still work to be done, and that's why we're so glad you tuned into this episode. Bringing you back to the present, we can see the negative implications of gender continue today throughout the objectification of women through dress codes and sexual depictions of women in media. This shows that although society has improved, the patriarchy is still going strong, and that's why I'm so glad novels like Utopia and podcasts like this exist as a form of resistance. See you next time!