Podcast with Nokulunga and Nelisa

Noglunga and Nelisa discuss their views on history, highlighting its subjective nature and the importance of including marginalized voices. They discuss forms of resistance like protests, dances, and music, and advocate for a more interactive and engaging approach to teaching history. They suggest using museums, collaborative teaching, integrative methods, and inquiry-based learning to encourage critical thinking and curiosity among learners. They emphasize the importance of asking questions and verifying sources in understanding history. Greetings to our listeners. We warmly welcome you to yet another episode of Understanding History with Noglunga and Nelisa. It seeks to challenge your idea of history that you've been accustomed to. So, Nelisa, what would be your idea or your views of history? So, for me, I would describe history as everything that has happened in the past, which has influenced and shaped today's world. Yeah, so that's how I would describe history. Yeah, but to add on that, I'd also think, in as much as it shapes today, it helps us understand our standing view, either as a society or maybe as a global society at large. But I would also say it is subjective, you know, in the sense that looking back, not everybody was literate, you know. And now it redirects us to understanding or rather seeing it in the perspective that it becomes subjective because not everybody who could read and write could be able to tell their history. So, in that way, the only people who are able to tell history are those that were able to read and write and therefore it is only reported according to their perspective. Yeah, come to think of it, I've never thought of it like that. Because, like, when we are discussing history, we may also include people from our families. Those people, like, they weren't included in history now, were they? They were not. They were not. Because now history does not really focus on our communities. They don't. And your personal story is where you come from. And there is so much more to what is being reported now, what we see in textbooks and autobiography. Yeah. Despite them being unable to write down history, did you know that there were actually other forms of history in which they could express themselves? Yeah. Like protest. Do you still remember the 1976 June 12th rising? Yeah, that was just the work of the youth, but it had so much impact on our history. It did. And how things have changed today. Yes. I mean, how we moved from African speaking the medium of instruction to English, and now even allowing for African languages to be taught at school. Right. Now there is that freedom, there is that flexibility of allowing children to learn in, like, 30 million years. Yeah. Yeah, and it is due to that. Yeah. So, even though they don't have, like, evidence in forms of, like, autobiographies, textbooks, but things like these protests, they had a great impact on history. They did. And this is how we could see that this was their way of fighting back, of taking back their liberation. Right. And this, like, I feel for me, like, what I admire the most about protesting, like, okay, I wouldn't necessarily say, like, I like, but I feel like it brings, like, a sense of unity, like, amongst people. More than anything. Yeah, it does. Maybe publishing a textbook or an autobiography, but you actually come to a consensus with people, like, there is an agreement amongst people. Right. Fighting for change. Fighting for change. Like, yeah, I feel like that's what I admire. It actually did show the unity that people had. It did, it did. Yeah. Right. It unified people more than anything. Right. And, you know, apart from protests, there were also dances, like, the Pantula Dance. Right. It is part of their, the quietest genre. Yeah. It was only limited to, like, black people, because that was their way of expressing themselves, and looking back, people said that that was their way of them feeling free, you know. Yes. Not being restricted as a black person. As a black person. That was the one thing nobody could take away from them. Right. Yeah, that's, like, it was a form of freedom and relief for youngsters. Yeah. It would also be an injustice, you know, to mention history, but not mention musical icons like Miriam Makeba. Right. Bob Humer, Stella Brindafasi. Those are the people that, they were taking back their power, like, you could see the fight in their music. Right. For instance, have you ever heard of their Black President song by Brindafasi? That is when she was, it was just a few months or a few years before the release of Nelson Mandela. Yeah. Here she was talking about how this is going to be our first black president, and, like, you could see the resistance of black people, that now they are taking back their power. Right. They now are just being, they are not allowing a party to take them or to silence them. Yeah. Like, they are choosing to address these issues. They are addressing them and they are telling the world the state of affairs in South Africa, and that was one way. Like, they knew what was at stake. They knew. She knew that her music could have been banned due to doing that, but she still went ahead. Like, that. That was a form of resistance, like, it was resisting and just risking it all. Talk about, like, talk about, oh, yeah. Yeah. Teaching history in schools in this way, like, in this aspect, telling people about, telling learners about music, about dance, about poetry, and the protest that happened as a form of resistance to the apartheid, and even way before that. Yeah. Like, during colonization, colonization, ways in which people were used to socialize, you know. Yeah. Like, beyond their working hours of being domestic workers. Workers, yeah. They still had time to have fun. To have fun. And enjoy each other. You know. Despite their situation. So, this could be, you know, like, a different take, a different perspective in which we can change how South African history is being taught. It could actually be more interesting. Right. Like, hearing about somebody who had precisely the same situation or circumstances as your forefathers. Right. Yeah. This would be an interesting take. It would be. Yeah. Yeah. Like, the different approaches in which we can teach history, you know. Yeah. It would be more interesting for students to be present in the process of gaining the knowledge of history. Other than just being sad knowledge where the teacher does, like, 90% of the job. Yeah. And let us expect to just take in whatever. The information. Exactly. Like, in this way, the teacher can just facilitate learning. Right. And then the learners take over. Like, they do most of the learning themselves. And that is why it is more memorable and more enjoyable, you know. Right. Not when you are just taking everything, but you conduct your own research. You do some of the things that, like, it is almost like the teacher does less of the job than you do. Than you do as a learner. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I think, like, we can, like, facilitate this kind of learning, like, by going to the museum. Like, for example, going to the museum. Because we know, like, at the museums, like, there is a lot of historical context. So, I feel like the learners, like, would gain a lot of new information. And it would also encourage critical thinking. Right. Yeah. So, I think these things themselves, actually, it activates their brain, the ways in which their brains work. Right. And they are inquisitive. They become more curious. Curious. Yeah. To learn about these things. Yeah. To discover more. Like, for themselves, you know. It is not just another task that you have to do for school work. Do. Yeah. But when you see and experience these things, it becomes more fun. And you become more interested in just wanting to know more. Learning more. Learning more. Yeah. There are actually various forms in which learning can be facilitated. Yeah. You know, some of them being collaborative teaching. Yeah. In this way, you encourage learners to form groups themselves. Yeah. And teach each other. Yeah. Because sometimes it becomes easier when there is peer learning. You know. Yeah. Other than the teacher. Teacher. Yeah. Knowledge and children. Yeah. But sometimes understanding from your peers' perspective. Right. It becomes easier. And it becomes better. Yeah. Like, understanding is a lot easier when you are being taught by a friend or a peer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There are also ways like the integrative method. You know. It assists learners. Like, with the integrative method, the teacher basically uses all the resources at their disposal. Yeah. Not only are you relying on reading and writing. And writing. But there are other sources. The use of documentation. Photographs. Photograph sources. Yeah. Right. Because it helps to also shape the concept with, like, the concept that you're trying to teach. Yeah. That you're trying to convey to learners. Yeah. With their regular lives. So, in that way, it makes it easier. And, you know, like, at ages where, like, imagine teaching grade four learners. Grade four. Yeah. It helps them to conceptualize. Even though they don't get... Another form of learning and teaching that we can look at is inquiry-based learning. You know. In this way, it encourages our learners to be innovative thinkers. To be more curious. Yeah. Yeah. And I think when we focus on history, that's what we need. We need people who have questions burning them. Yeah. Yeah. Wanting to answer questions. You wanting to understand why certain things have happened. Happened. Yeah. Because if not, then it becomes difficult for the child to see the importance of history. Yeah. To see how essential it is if you don't have any question that you'd like to answer. Yeah. Like, wanting to understand how things happened a certain way. And why they happened that way. Exactly. Yeah. So, you see, with the inquiry-based learning, not only is it just questions, like a learner... Asking questions. Yeah. Asking questions. Exactly. A teacher giving answers and that. Even with the answers that they receive, they want to be inquisitive. They want to know why. Yeah. They want to know. Yeah. They want to know more. And I think for history, that is an essential skill. It is. Because you have to be investigative. Yeah. And beyond just research, it allows you to verify your sources. Yeah. Yeah. Very important. Very important. It's difficult to see or want to investigate if your sources are credible. Yeah. If you're just the type of person who takes in the information without asking for credibility or anything of that sort. Yeah. Yeah. It is. Various reasons why it is important to teach history. And one that stands out for me, and I'll start by delving into it, is identity. Right. Not only does it teach people to know themselves and be proud of themselves and where they come from. Yeah. But in this intercultural world, it gives you direction. You are able to see, or rather learn about the freedom versus equality of your culture specifically. Okay. The injustices and the struggles that happened and how you can tackle it. And how, if maybe you come from the part of history that had imposed their injustices on other people, how can you change that? Yeah. How do you aim to make a society a better place by being that change? Right. If that part of the society that you come from is known for colonization, do you really want to continue with that sort of legacy, or you can bring about the change? Right. Yeah. It can also create personal value and guidance. If, like for those societies that had a really strong value system, it serves as a guidance and how you want to approach life. Because, I mean, if your forefathers have been known for being great men, for people of intellect, you wouldn't want to stop. You wouldn't want that. Yeah. Those are some of the things that you'd feel proud to uphold to continue with, you know, with continuing generations. One of the other aspects that teaching history focuses on could be honing your critical skills or your thinking skills. For instance, it improves your interpretation and analysis skills. Because history, one thing that relies on mostly is research. Yeah. So, as soon as you get into that habit from the level of just, like maybe primary or high school level, you are more critical. You don't just take anything that comes. You are able to judge, to look deeply or judge the accuracy of your sources. Yeah. Right. So that's the other advantage. In this, like in the 25th century, that would be an essential skill. Because these days, almost anyone can put up anything on the internet. Right. And state it as a fact. And that's when you need the skill to be able to critically look at your sources. Whether they are primary or secondary, like look at them and see if they check out, you know. Don't just take anything as it comes. Yeah. In addition to that, the importance of teaching history is also that it creates engaged citizens. Yeah. You know, when people know more about their history, they'd like to be more involved in changing it. In changing it, changing it in narratives, if it's not a good one. Yeah. But if it is a good one, everybody would want to be involved in continuing the good legacy. Right. And knowing that that lies within their hands, that it is within their power, they'd obviously want to do better. And it builds citizenship, you know, as soon as you're proud of the place that you come from, of your country, for example. Right. Yeah. You want to do great things for the country. For your country, exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, it would encourage good patriotism. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So, to add on that, I think history is also important for understanding cultural differences. Like, as you know, here in South Africa, we have different cultures. The Ramonese. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we have different cultures. So, understanding those different cultures can actually... Wait. Ah! Yeah. So, understanding history can actually help us learn to appreciate and respect other people's cultures. I think that's very important. Like, even for every individual, you must be able to respect other people. Regardless of their background. Yeah, regardless of their background. So, talking about different and diverse cultures reminds me of how about five years ago, it wasn't that I came from a rural area, but it was just an urban area that was not very rich in diversity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I had this problem with different cultures and languages. Like, the only language I knew was my own. And that was it. That is how much I was limited. It actually highlighted how much we need to not only learn about other people's cultures, but maybe learn a thing or two about their languages as well. Like, imagine how embarrassing it would be in South Africa, not knowing how to greet in the next language. Imagine. Once you have like eleven official languages. Eleven. That is so embarrassing. You probably try to say something, but you don't understand. Like, you don't understand what they are saying. And the second, you wouldn't know how to start responding to that person. So, I think more than just understanding the culture, but delve into the individual culture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, speaking of cultures, this actually reminds me of my tribe that has continued with the legacy of giving children important names. Like, for example, many of our names come from our forefathers who played a part in history, even though it's not documented. They don't say that part. They don't, but they did. Like, it's actually funny. And at the same time, you feel honored because you are entrusted with that name. Name of a hero or heroine. It's not just anybody. You see? So, like, you feel entrusted because people are expecting you to continue with the legacy. I mean, if that person did well, you're supposed to do even better. Yeah, well, so, yeah. So, I think that's how, like, history, like, also, like... You're still living in the ages of previous generations. You see? Well, with ours, the names are partly different in the sense that sometimes it's not necessarily somebody who has lived before, but it is sometimes the expectations of the child. Well, sometimes it can be a bit too much, you know? Too much. Exactly. And you expect it sometimes to be... Exactly. If your name is successful, then you have to do it. You have to. You have to. You have to. Yeah. They're pretty creative, and it starts from way back. Because even the name was not just a name. A name. Like, it was a symbol of something. And now, in your culture, you're going to have to continue with the good deeds and everything. Yeah. Yeah. Another aspect of history that is important to look into would be decolonization of history. Now that we've taught learners or students history, but now how do we decolonize them? Because there are actually marginalized people in this part of history. Right. And that's sometimes why some of other people's history were not written down, were not documented. Yeah. So those are the people that we need to consider when teaching history. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in a manner that is supposed to be decolonizing. Right. For instance... Yeah. You can, instead of shying away from sensitive subjects like slavery and colonization, take them head on. Yeah. Make these people feel heard. In one of our lectures, we actually had a trigger warning, because that is how sensitive it is. Yeah, it is. People leave this history. It is a sensitive issue. Yeah. Exactly. And they had family members that some of them lost, and some of them had lifetime fatalities, and so on. Yeah. So it is quite a sensitive issue. But instead of shying away, acknowledge that. Yeah. Face it. Show that there are people who actually lost their lives, people who their lives were impacted negatively. Yeah. And for some, it still continues for generations. Unfortunately. Yeah. And some of the things that we can do as well is highlighting people of non-European descent, because we cannot deny that most of our history focuses on Western history. Yeah. And for... Even in textbooks, most of the time you find European history. Exactly. It is almost like Africa does not have a history. A history of its own. But it actually is very rich in history. It is. So you can actually highlight those people, make them feel heard, make them feel seen. Yes. Because they do actually have an existing history. They do. They do. There is no way we could have had European history without Africa. Africa. Because... There is no way. Like colonization actually happened here. Yeah. Yeah. In Africa. Exactly. Yeah. Those are some of the aspects that we can focus on. Right. And we can also bring in primary sources and testimony of non-Europeans. Because when we look into it, honestly, those are the people that can give you a less subjective perspective on history. Right. Yeah. Because, I mean, if I'm on the other side of history, that is also good. I wouldn't be able... Yeah. I wouldn't be objective about it. Yeah. Yeah. But then, allowing rather... Now that we have the Western side telling their own story, now we can give non-Europeans their chance to tell their own stories. Their own stories. Yeah. In conclusion, this podcast seeks to decolonize minds of the people. But most importantly, to decolonize the minds of the youth. Because the youth is... The next generation. Exactly. It is the future of our country. Yeah. So that has to be our starting point with regards to our teaching methods. Right. And how we choose to decolonize the content. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I strongly agree with that. So, guys, that's it for today. That's it for today. Yeah. Join us on our next podcast.