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You're listening to The Goop Podcast, made possible by our friends at KEDS. Like Goop, KEDS is big on championing women. They've always been interested in talking to women, marketing to women, and creating for women. KEDS made the first women's sneaker in 1916, and they named it the Champion Sneaker. In the centuries since, this simple, classic shoe has become one of the most recognizable sneakers ever made, and KEDS has become an iconic brand. To learn more about their backstory, head to keds.com slash our story. That's keds.com slash our story. And if you're shopping on the KEDS site, be sure to plug in code goop20 at checkout. That's goop20. You'll get 20% off full-priced items when you shop before June 15th. When you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture, you get criticized. You do? Yeah. Did you hear about that? I didn't find the one, I found someone I respected, and we made it the one. In a sort of longing kind of view of love, people understand each other as if by magic. Nothing itself is addictive on the one hand, and on the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy, and when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the Goop Podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders, and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers, and seekers, here to start conversations, because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. Today, I'm talking to Brene Brown. Brene is a research professor at the University of Houston and one of the most influential people in our culture right now. Her work on courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy is fascinating and important. I met Brene in Austin when we were both there for South by Southwest. I asked her a lot about leadership and her latest book, Dare to Lead. I think Brene's advice for how we can lead and live from a place of vulnerability is really salient, and I'm excited to share her tools for doing so. If you put shame in a petri dish and you give it a little bit of silence, a little bit of judgment, and a little bit of secrecy, it will grow exponentially into every corner and crevice of your life. You have the same amount of shame in a petri dish, and you put a little empathy on it, you create a hostile environment for shame. It can't survive. So let's get to my chat with Brene Brown. I honestly am so thrilled. I've been following you for so long. I have your parenting manifesto, wholehearted parenting manifesto on my bulletin board. Oh, I love that. I do. It's so beautiful. You've really impacted my life so much. Thank you. I can't remember which book it was of yours that I was reading, and you talked about your sliding doors moment. Oh, yeah. And I was like, oh my God, she knows who I am. Like I was so... Yeah. I wasn't sure you were up to... Come on. I totally know who you are, and let me tell you, that movie is still to date one of my most favorite movies. You were brilliant in it. Thank you. It's actually a really interesting script, that movie, about the choices that life gives you and those like lefts and rights, and I was amazed that you had... I was so thrilled you had seen it and that it had been impactful in some way. Oh my God, yeah. And let's say that that haircut is in my hair file. Yeah. It was amazing. What do you think about that? Do you think that we have that much control over our destinies? God, you're right up in my fear stuff, like personally. I think we're people of free will, and I think... I don't believe in predetermination very much, but... I don't either. Yeah. And then yet I have... I do get kind of an existential comfort from thinking like, oh, everything's happening how it's supposed to happen, which I think is sort of the opposite of free will. Would it be fair for me to say I use whichever one brings me comfort at the moment? So like, there's that quote that's, everything's going to be okay, in the end, everything will be okay. If it's not okay, it's not the end. Wow. That's a good one. So that's kind of some of that predeterminist, you know, and so some days when I'm really in struggle, I'm like, this is what's supposed to be happening, this is happening not to me but for me, everything's going to be okay in the end, and the other days I'm like, that's the biggest sack of bullshit I've ever heard, and what do I need to be doing to make things okay? Do you know what I mean? Totally. So I just like selectively borrow... What you need at the time. What I need at the time. That's probably awful, but it's true. How do you... No, not at all. How do you remember in those moments? Like, I always think, God, I went through this really hard thing, and in the moment I forgot all my tools. Like, I know what I should be telling myself. I always... I really struggle with that, like, building that pause or whatever to say, okay, now I need to kind of implement my goals. And I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. 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