9_5_the-midwife-martyr_full_length,

The speakers reminisce about long car trips in the 70s and 80s and how they entertained themselves without technology. They discuss recording soap operas, playing games, and picking up hitchhikers. They then transition to discussing the concept of martyrdom in midwifery and how it is seen as the ideal but can lead to a lack of boundaries. They explore the historical and cultural factors that contribute to this mindset and emphasize the need for personal growth and self-reflection. They conclude by stating that their intention is to have a discussion and not to divide or offend anyone. Hey everyone, welcome back. I'm here with my good buddy Mel. I'm here with my 10-4 good buddy Nick. We were having a little conversation before we went live. I don't even know how we got on the truck or thing to be honest. We did. We did. And for those of you who can remember those family long-distance trips of way back in the 70s and 80s and you know the CB radio times and how you had your handle and like when you went by the trucker the kid with no seatbelt on in the backseat of you know of the station wagon and you were like yeah do your fist pump out the window and the trucker honked at you, right? It was like the best thing ever, right? Right. It was a totally major day that some trucker honked. Major day. Major day. And I don't know, did you use to like we would make signs and put them up on the window. Yep. Oh we would. Yeah like see all you people who have children that have iPads to control their... I tell my kids constantly they would never have survived my childhood. We are the last generation Mel of kids who had to like use your imagination. Yeah fight their way out of their own boredom because absolutely maybe we can include the 80s kids too. Although they started to get a little bit more into handheld games and things like that. Definitely by the time you get to the 90s forget about it they were being entertained constantly by something. Yeah. We used to in our car trip we had a tape recorder with you know the cassette tape. I'm sure you had one too where you hit play and record together and on our long car trip we used to record little soap operas and we all had roles. So there's like five of us in the back of the station wagon. Seats are down right no seatbelt laws. So what the hell is a seatbelt law? Seats are down the the sleeping bags are spread out and we're just back there and it's like the one time we had snacks like what the hell are snacks like it's the only time it's like long car trips that you had a snack that was a commercialized product that you bought and we would like entertain ourselves like of course you played the license plate game. Yes. You played the alphabet alphabet game. Grandma's Attic. Yes. Which is the alpha well another version of the alphabet. Another version of the alphabet game. I spy with my little eye. You're trying to elicit responses from the truckers. You're making little signs and putting them in the windows help I've been kidnapped. Can you imagine like you're being asshole children and we made soap operas and we still remember the one that we did was called nine lives to live and we were we would do like we were all like cat voices right and we'd say meow meow meow meow meow and then like somebody would somebody would narrate over the top of us and say translation. Oh John how could you? Like that. But we freaking entertained ourselves on our two week long car trip across the country. The translator is like in charge of everything like we are we're trying to direct the direction of the soap opera by how we intonate our meows and our purrs and our things but they got to interpret any fucking way that they wanted to. I think this is hysterical. So for those of you who do long car trips back in and were bored in the 60s and 70s yeah let us know what good what did you do to entertain? What did you do to entertain? We used to pick up hitchhikers too. Like today people never even but high school and well not high school but college students hitchhike across the country all the time and and just adults who were free-spirited and so we used to pick up hitchhikers sometimes they'd stay with us a day or two sometimes just a few hours and I got to meet like some really freaking awesome people that way. Which none of this by the way has anything to do with our topic. But you know it just goes to show you dear listeners of ours what kind of backgrounds we come from and how we like to this is our typical conversations that we have. Yeah yeah so you are being treated to our pre-record conversations except that we actually have already hit record so you're you're having to sit through it before we get to our topic. So our topic today is called the midwife martyr and we're going to break those shackles. Yes yeah yeah the myth of martyrdom. Oh it's heavy and it's deep-rooted actually when you kind of look into the research of martyrdom which first thought that comes to my head is Catholicism and the way that the martyrs and in the church you know and it's based a lot on throughout history anyway that martyrs of the crusades and all that kind of suffering and the self-sacrifice right and you know like especially different sects how they sects of religion S-E-C-T-S so that doesn't come out as S-E-X. They would you know beat themselves with chains and blocks and you know all these other methods. Yeah it became a status I mean for some time there was like the wanting to achieve martyrdom aspect of it. Yeah correct right and then you know fast forward to what we have today and you know the first thought that then comes to my head for present-day martyrdom is the terrorist in the Middle East right who you know that is a sign of they're a set into heaven when they're a martyr and they blow themselves up so in who they take with them that so it's kind of like an interesting yeah concept when you start looking at it in the face of medicine and as nurse as nurses which again I don't want to exclude people that come into midwifery from a non-nurse background but those of us that come through midwifery in a nurse background who help it's you know mostly women and the gender inequality there we come with that martyr aspect a lot of us and so you know so we might want to take a deep dive and look into this and yeah we can marry that with our topic that we did the other day on boundaries yeah it's a great kind of spin-off from that whole boundary discussion because you know it encompasses that entire lack of boundaries but I also think if we kind of point back to what we said just a few moments ago about that whole idea of in the early church people actually thought to achieve martyrdom I feel like in midwifery we kind of have that identity of the midwife martyr like you said and that as being the ideal like the true midwife the ideal midwife kind of ascribes to have that martyr identity and the ones who don't the ones who want to set boundaries the ones who want some balance in their lives are seen as kind of less than renegades within running a life right can you imagine that we want to be a balanced midwife we don't want to be a martyred midwife but there is that give them better access like that and I don't think people view it that way I think that they if you were to call it out they might deny that that kind of exists but if you if you look at it that's kind of what's exactly happening is that as you identify more with that sacrifice piece that lack of boundaries piece that you're willing to do whatever it takes that you you know you're you staring up all night and seeing patients in the office next day or you're staying up all night and then taking care of your family but you know that that seems to be the standard for how to live what do you think like well I want to talk about this a little in a aspect of the historical aspect of midwifery in the last 40 years of this this country in the United States do you think that we've created partially created this midwife murder in the culture of midwifery I think it comes from the culture of womanhood and motherhood I think we carried it into it like that and especially if you think about the times when midwives were really getting up and running in the United States that we still had that identity we hadn't broken free I mean this is the feminist movement is just in its earliest days as well so I feel like we carried it over from our our womanhood I absolutely agree and I think also we need to take into it the family of origins that we all come from what backgrounds and traumas we've learned are you there I'm not sure what happened here to see if we can not sure what happened either piece I'm hoping yeah anyway like I was saying is that it's as a student nurse you're coming in and they give you all these big names in Florence Nightingale is one so when you take those aspects of we carry in as women the human helper as we like to call it you know our own backgrounds and what traumas we may have been exposed to as children and what origins we grew up in is as children and you know for my house I grew up in a very my mother didn't work she would stay at home with us but she was also very depressed with anxiety and my dad was at work constantly and there's alcoholism in my family so like you know you carry these roles with you into your nursing profession and then when you go forward into midwifery you carry that role as well so I want to just kind of preface a little bit that when we talk about the martyr today it requires a lot of deep personal work and I for those of you that maybe are listening to this and feel a little in the gut like it bothers you a little and I don't want to say offended but like you're like oh that stings right that's a little spicy I'm feeling that that might be an area that you need to work on yeah yeah so I just kind of want to practice yeah but I think for a lot of us they're just you there's and we're not one easy fix you know right and that's the uncomfortableness of what we're the whole purpose of why we're here is to have the discussion and it's not to call out any individual person right group of people right but to discuss like these various concepts and aspects of the midwifery and what are some of the implications of them or you know do you identify with that are we saying something that's triggering I'm saying something that gives you a light bulb oh my gosh moment but it's really not to divide and we don't want that or no we don't want that I don't want to say necessarily high-five to the midwives that came before us and paved the way and started breaking the glass ceilings that are now allowing those of us that are in this role to start setting more boundaries around what's okay and what's not okay in the profession of being a midwife correct yeah because they worked hard and I mean they couldn't access to get where we are today and again I think they carried some of that martyrs and yes with that during the feminist movement and getting women recognized even feed where we can have the conversation and then try and maybe shift a little from it yep it's gotten us this far but do we want to stay where we are or do we maybe want to become something more right absolutely so what if you can see what does that require of us yes yep so from your because you have more out of the two of us you've had much more experience with working in different groups and practices what has been you are a midwife hussy okay but I'm always your first all right you keep coming back to me well and I think I remember way back to our first episode we spoke to that phenomena of some of the almost the gaslighting that occurred here maybe you weren't cut out for this mm-hmm or you know when when a newer midwife or a midwife is setting boundaries says this is what I'm okay with this is what I'm not and the message they receive that they get is maybe this isn't the right choice for you those are the midwives I feel like who who maybe have identified as that martyr that martyr right you have to sacrifice mm-hmm that you you're not truly living the midwife credo if you're not willing to be on call for 72 hours straight without sleep yeah like if you're not willing to take yourself to the edge of who you are you know then maybe you're not cut out to be a midwife that whole concept for me of that and you hear it from midwives a lot of like we miss birthdays we miss holidays you miss important events with our families to do the work that we do I will say from the beginning my internal response this is just my internal responses you know midwives aren't the only ones who do that right there's lots of other professions right that sacrifice time with our families to do what they do you have EMT's law enforcement fire retail retail retail gets paid jack shit and gets treated yeah that's very true we do as well but like there's lots of professions restaurant worker that involves restaurant workers yeah I mean there's lots of professions that mr. kids birthdays sporting events work holidays but somehow we incorporate that as something that is part of our identity which I'm not saying it's not but but for those who say that they maybe don't want that they get like that slack like well what did you expect when you wanted to be midwife right right and we see it too um I think I see it online and social media on some of the midwife groups that are on there they're like well what did you expect you're a midwife and I don't think that's okay I really think and it seems to me like the newer kids the kids I hate that got that in quotation air quotes on kids I really respect and I've said this before this generation that's coming behind us because they're a little more clear on what they accept on work-life balance and I feel like you and I are a little bit caught in the middle on this like we I recognize and I'm a worker I recognize that quality in myself and I'm I will work I'm not somebody who's not a worker but I also struggle with setting that boundary of well my work my family life is good too so I really it's an interesting dichotomy I want to call out what you just said are you listen to what did I I yeah I think it's interesting that we feel like we have to justify our comment by saying by the way I work hard and I write that too I was inside when you said I'm a worker I am in my head saying meet my ass off but but we feel like we can't have the conversation about it unless we like that you're right we work hard oh that was a murder saying it was also like that we just feel like we have to justify it like right right and we and I felt I was right there though I was in my head doing the exact same thing oh yeah I work my ass off too so I should be able to speak to this topic because I work my ass off I want but it's a totally separate topic martyrdom is not related to how hard or how much you're willing no it's not because it's added to your boundary your boundary setting and so some of what we have looked up online kind of like to get a little bit a little bit of background on this for us because we knew it existed but we didn't know if it'd been studied right there's no books out there on this there's no true nobody sat down to take a look at this really from a research Avenue point of view so they're now starting to look at and they're calling it at the martyr complex so it truly has different psychological components to it or different personality components to it and like and what comes down I always look at things like what's behind it right what comes in and brings behind it so like there's low self-esteem that's involved involved fear of abandonment is involved a lot of people who are martyrs have difficulty with change so and that's true because when you start talking about shift sharing right or the hospitalist model of midwifery I love that model I think that's great and then you'll hear other midwives are like oh no I need my whole four-day call like I like the 12 hours that's good work 312 yeah you know and and and you can still be a midwife and you can be a midwife in those moments there's that subtle correct like you're not really a true midwife if you're running from room to room right no I'm with women I'm doing a good job with it yeah good and I think that behind those other thoughts that we have you have the anger and the resentment the feeling of being trapped in powerlessness that comes along with it right so yeah right and so people I think that identify or if they're truly able to see that sense of martyrdom in themselves because a lot of times they're not it's a codependent thing it's a coping mechanism they've developed over time right so you know are you really coming towards your thought process with a joyful heart because you want to do it are you coming to it because you feel obligated to do it and then you get a reward from saying well I was up for four days straight and then I saw patients and then I'm then I was able to get some sleep but first I had to go to a little Jimmy's soccer practice right like and I baked you know brownies for everybody like what is that feeding you that's an excellent perspective I think valid perspective I think getting to an understanding yeah why that is your preferred method of reward I guess or being fed versus setting the boundary asking for what your needs are yeah yeah because I mean healthier ways to have those same needs met yeah I mean you're getting something in return for this you know because you can walk around and you can be like oh well look at me poor me so you're getting an amazation wouldn't necessarily identify but it is so it's a form it is a form obviously it's a form of victimization in terms of I had to do this I had no choice if I don't do it you know right right don't it's easier if I do it and just get it done nobody else can do it like I can or you know you can't do it right only I can do it this way so you know what is or I work for an employer who I don't you know who doesn't give me any other option right mm-hmm yeah without even knowing whether or not those options have been explored mm-hmm right yep so this is value what's being given to you yeah this is deep like I said this is kind of a sticky topic today so when we were talking about it I was a little uncomfortable I was like all right it's not an easy one because it is multi-layered and there is some level to it of the tradition of accepting what's been handed down that in some cases employers are used to their midwives not questioning and so you get into that weird territory of again boundaries and asking for your needs to be met some people gravitate towards those positions because they do get fed right by right being able to say I stayed up for four nights yeah and did all these things and did all these things right yeah like what is what are you getting in return for that so I know you know like for me that wouldn't feed my soul so that's that's not I need other things to feed me so and that's not I like a more creative outlet but it's hard it's hard and I also think to you yeah go ahead I don't think you you fall into just the acceptance of that role and people especially if you're saying out-of-hospital people come in sometimes with that expectation spell you're right I was just going there with us yep yep the expectations right even in hospital the pain we're pleased and we're people pleasers so in the hospital too though like either out of hospital or in hospital whichever provider you're working at at the moment right we're taught the customers always right the patient is always right and it's our job to be a service provider and keep them happy right so because if you don't we're not going to get paid their revenues not going to be there right where yeah so it really is so deep there's so many different levels layers of this onion and so to speak yeah playing into it the culture okay so what'd you say I said or a parfait yeah parfait is later hi anybody who has children and grew up with Shrek knows where I just wrap it yes you did okay but and that's also the onions are distracting too because that's where my head went when he said with the layers and then you were like the parfait so maybe we should title this the Shrek episode and then there's the whole idea of the barter as sometimes the device identifying as the savior role mm-hmm the only one that can serve you so we kind of land in the territory of specialing and yes anyone who's been my student is well aware of my thoughts and feelings on specialing but you know my thoughts on specialing is it sends a bad message to your client and it sends a bad message to the midwife that you honor and work alongside when patients feel like they have that special connection to you and you say you're going to special them you're basically telling them that nobody else can serve your needs just me that you're better than your fellow midwife but also if there's other patients out in the world that you care about or feel like they have also forged a connection with you and they find out that you're specialing one patient but not specialing them I feel like it can set up situations that are uncomfortable and hurtful honestly yeah yeah yeah I mean if I know if I found out that my midwife that I felt connected to that I trusted that I felt like I had forged a relationship with I know if I found out that that some other patient was being special but they haven't offered that same service to me I would probably be questioning how special I was to that midwife. I just think it's a messy practice I agree mm-hmm I agree it's a boundary disaster it is because it involves I think it involves like you know giving out your cell phone and if you are specialing patients they may or may not happen on your designated day and if you're up all night with your special and you're supposed to be in office the next day or you're supposed to be on call the next day when you're not serving if you decide to go through with those things you're not serving those clients or being your best midwife with those clients so that's unfair right there or if you decide that you're exhausted and you can't serve those people that day you're calling on your customers to come in off the bench and cover you for that so it's just a practice that I I don't think is one that should be held up as kind of a model for admitted free care. I tend to agree with you as well although I will call myself out on the fact that I have you know I have I have definitely specials so I am NOT going to say that oh this is a practice I never have done I definitely have specials a couple that and truly there I'm actually still in contact with them so and that's kind of a fun fun aspect as well um and my midwife specialed me. Mine did as well and that's where I learned what a bad practice it was because she was with well thankfully it worked out because she was at my house and able to get rest and I gave birth and in the morning hours and she was on call the next day so it worked out in my case when she did it for my home birth but I was able to see yeah how that could have not it could I terribly great yeah because I remember well with my third and I and I want to preface this like I kind of spit babies out so for me to special me it's it's a pretty easy easy case again I say that with air quotations but um you know she was in and I called and waited until I was five to six centimeters anyway you know I'm like I'm going in you know and and I told the nurses I was like don't bother her until she has to be here you know I don't want to I don't want to waste her time so to speak I want her to make sure she gets some sleep because she was specially me but the next day the OB came in and was like it was my call day why did you come in and I was like oh it's a little sticky there you know I didn't want it you know so anyway I think also I want to go back a little bit with the history to like a lot of us as midwives feel like we're called to it it's a call to this profession and a cause for us I know I feel very strongly in the fact that I am providing competent midwifery care for the people who I you know choose to serve that come to see me be at the families you know because I also do FNP as well but it's a cause for me for feminism you know like step up and so and I feel very strongly that I was called to this and when you talk about you talked about the beginning of our podcast that the little skits he used to put on with your family I always did skits as kids and like one of them might involved a lot of them giving birth like what six and seven-year-old does a lot of us in our community yeah listening to this podcast yes yeah I didn't know I just watched my animals give birth I didn't never done you know I didn't know anything about that so I guess so I think some of that also brings in that martyr I think so too I think we do feel so strongly in most cases those of us sitting here as midwives feel like it it was something that was the calling and that somehow that equates to some bigger level of sacrifice yeah yeah because it's a calling that we we should be giving over our lives to it mm-hmm mm-hmm and that requires sacrifice on our part on our family's part because it's a calling that you know that everybody must participate but I don't know if that's it's not realistic I think I mean that I think that's exactly what I really want to ask like is that a truth mm-hmm you have to give over who you are do you have to give up your boundaries do you have to give up everything else do you have to request that everybody else in your circle give it up to just based on the fact that what you're doing is a calling and I'm coming more and more to a place where I know I don't think that's true I think I can still be living out my calling right and be present right or the people in my family the balance as we wonder a balanced midwife yeah mm-hmm you can have a calling and be balanced it doesn't make it less of a calling but I feel like some of us and it's been a journey for me to just kind of cling to that though like maybe if I don't sacrifice everything I have for it it was never really a calling but I'm trying to work through that process and seeing like no it can still be your calling even if you're a hospital it can still be your calling even if you want to be home on the weekend I am a much better provider when I'm fully rested and can bring all of me to the table to serve then if I'm exhausted and mentally drained emotionally drained and physically ill I can't who are we serving right yeah we have to who are we serving when we drain ourselves yep so we're not serving ourselves we're not serving our family and we're also not serving our communities mm-hmm to the best of our ability when we don't have boundaries yeah so I think that will wrap it up we would like to hear from all of you out there in the midwife world none of it comes from a place of accusation or finger-pointing no it really comes from curiosity about examining like what is it that we accepted at face value and what are we willing to question yep so until the next time I'm Mel and you're now Nick and stay present be curious have the courage and come back next week thank you we'll have another great fun that's right light-hearted topics Lauren sure all right bye everybody hanging out with us guys we love you bye