Do walls make Christians?
Transcription
1, 2, 1, 2, 1. 2, 3, 4, 3, 4. Okay, alright, so that's going. And then I'm going to record here as well. Give it a couple seconds. I'll get out of frame. Alright, alright, alright. Alright, we are rolling, we're good, we're good. We're actually on? Okay, sweet. Welcome to Coffee and Christ, the podcast where we take the extraordinary truths of God's word and bring it down to the ordinary of everyday life through just a cup of coffee and a conversation. Thank you for everyone joining us today. I'm here with Pastor Mark Sims, teaching pastor at Quinault Baptist Church. I'm a member of Quinault as well. And I just want to know, Mark, how are you doing today, and what coffee are we drinking? Today, well, I'm doing well. Thank you, Mason. I'm drinking an Ethiopian. You're drinking a blend of something? Yes, I am drinking a blend from East Java in Brazil. It is actually called the Oopsy Doodah Blend from a local roaster where he accidentally mixed up two roasts from Moorhead. East Java in Peru? East Java in Brazil. Oh, in Brazil. Where is Java? Is Java like a place? I would just exclusively associate Java with coffee. That's like a bad coffee shop is called Java Central or something. Maybe, man. That's for someone more educated than myself. But, it's good. It's yummy. I'm assuming yours is yummy. It is yummy. You took yours from last week, and you said you half-cupped each of the two coffees. Man, so you're getting just all sorts of different flavors today. There's a certain point you reach in drinking coffee where you develop the sophisticated, mature palate, and you become really snobby, and you spend like $40 on a cup of coffee. And then, reality sits in, and you realize that you don't have an hour every morning to make coffee. You can't take out a second mortgage on your house to pay for your addiction. And so, your standards fall, and you begin drinking day-old microwave coffee just to get by. Got a lot to look forward to, guys, if you're into coffee and you haven't reached that stage yet. Just know, it's coming. Man, that's great. Well, folks on the Christ part of this podcast now, we're going to talk about the topic for the day, and that is, do walls make Christians? And that is based on an article that you wrote not too long ago. And so, real quick, we're going to get into the story about how Victorinus... Who? Is it Victorinus? Victorinus? Victorinus? I don't know. I mean, we heard a different pronunciation, too. Let's just call him Vic. There you go. Saved ourselves the trouble of pronouncing that the whole time. That's a good idea. So, how Victor came to faith in his older age. And so, you wrote about this article. And so, first, there's kind of stages of this process that he goes through. As I read through the article, it was almost like... We've given no context to who this person is. We're just assuming everyone knows who Victorinus is. That's totally fair. Can you tell me who Victorinus is? In Augustine, the church father, from the 4th century, in his book, his very famous book, Concessions, which is kind of a spiritual autobiography, how he came... He went from being a pagan, believed in kind of Roman religion, and then had some transformations. The book is about how he came to faith in Christ. And he tells the story of how a man, a famous Roman orator named Victorinus, how he came to faith, and how that played a kind of crucial role in helping Augustine overcome some of his hesitations in becoming a Christian. Perfect. And so, we're talking about this story, and that story is going to be the focus of this whole episode here. And so, first, I wanted to kind of just summarize a little bit how I, when I was reading this, broke into kind of categories or stages that we're going to walk through of kind of this process that I think a lot of people go through. And so, I think the first stage, it talks about how he actually says, I am already a Christian, you know. And then, Mark, could you tell me what was the response to that? Yeah. So, in Augustine's book, in Confessions, Augustine approaches an older bishop named Simplicianus. And Simplicianus is telling a young Augustine the story of Victorinus. Victorinus was like a celebrity of the day. He was like a public intellectual, kind of like a Jordan Peterson or something like that, you know. And so, young Augustine is there coming to Simplicianus, the bishop, wrestling with his doubts and uncertainties, and Simplicianus says, hey, let me tell you a story of Victorinus, how he came to faith, this famous smart guy. And Simplicianus knew Victorinus. Victorinus liked Christianity and had kind of like a private admiration of Christianity and himself secretly kind of believed it. And so, one day, he went to Simplicianus and told him, hey, you know, I really, I actually believe the same thing you believe, but I just keep it a secret. And Simplicianus responded, I will not believe that. And here, I'll read him directly. He says, I will not believe that nor count you among Christians until I see you in Christ's church. Perfect. And then the response is, it's the walls that make Christians then? Yeah, so Victorinus responds with, yeah. Yeah, it's a joke. Yes, he's kind of trying to mock it and say that, so your faith is rooted in these walls that you put yourself in on a weekly basis. That's how you determine whether you're a Christian. He's kind of being a little snarky, sarcastic in that category. And so, it says basically this kind of same conversation repeats multiple times, you know, the same kind of little rift back and forth about why I do already, I believe this. I agree with you in the same kind of, well, I don't count that. That doesn't, you aren't showing that with your character, with your actions. Yeah, Simplicianus is saying, until your faith is public, it's not real. Yeah, if you can't admit it to the men and women of the world, then how are you supposed to actually have that true connection with God? Okay, so that's perfect. I feel like that little clip just reminds me of kind of the lukewarm Christians you see all the time. I think a lot of people, and I'm sure a couple people that maybe will listen to this, have that belief, generally speaking, that I believe in God. I believe that Jesus died for my sins. You know, that general kind of, the ideas, the concepts, and, you know, maybe even like Victor Ioannidis, they practice. Maybe they actually do, you know, read the Bible on their own. Maybe they do have a private prayer life, but they don't have any public displays. They don't talk to their friends about it. They don't really, they kind of shy away from that spotlight. And so, I kind of wanted, the first category I broke it down into is kind of excuses, doubts, shame, you know, kind of the shyness maybe, and that's what seems to be very prominent in Victor Ioannidis is he's hiding away from that public spotlight and not wanting to really open up about what he believes because he might be scared of what comes from that as far as the earthly perspective instead of focusing on the godly perspective of that relationship. So, I think it's early stages, his fears are on the world. His fears are on the people that he's with. His fears are on those friendships, relationships, and then talk about it a little later, the pride because he'd actually previously discussed very different things that would be contradictive to the faith. And so, could you tell me, what was he saying before that would be kind of counterintuitive to someone who believes in Christ? What did Victor Ioannidis say or believe? Well, correct me if I'm misunderstanding your question. But Victor Ioannidis is under the assumption that he can continue to maintain a private relationship with Jesus while changing nothing of his public persona or commitments. He thinks he can continue to save face publicly by maintaining an air of respectability by continuing to participate in pagan rituals, continuing to publicly distance himself from the church, while secretly he continues to believe it. Is there more that you're looking for than that? No, that's a pretty good summary. His shyness, his inability to admit it to people in his life and think he can keep it private, why would that be counterintuitive? I guess it was probably a better way to phrase that to the Christianity that we want to support generally speaking. Yeah, because faith is public and faith is total. I think we spoke about this in one of our previous conversations, but Jesus has not come to take a room in the house of your life. He's come to take the whole thing. He's come to own all of you and he requires all of you to submit to him. So that idea of I'll keep this slice of me or this part of me separated from my faith, that's a completely different conception of what faith is in the Bible, what it means to trust in Jesus. That's why Simplicianus says the kind of private faith you have right now, it's not real. That's why he's saying I'll believe that you're really a Christian once you show up in church, once you make it public, once you submit to it in its fullness. Perfect. And I think that a really cool kind of comparison you drew in your article is the comparison between a man not wanting to marry his girlfriend. It's kind of the same you can say, based on this kind of high-seated perspective of why do I need a piece of paper to represent what I already know is true to myself is the kind of exact comparison you made there for a man not wanting to marry his girlfriend. But really it can be hearted in something a little more selfish, maybe prideful, and it's kind of your own convenience or maybe your own shy. You don't want to kind of ruffle feathers. You don't want to disrupt the boat that you're already sitting on because you like the situation you have. I think it's even deeper than just that. A guy who's dating a girl and he doesn't want to marry her because why do I need a piece of paper to validate my love for you? They may have a high-minded idea of I don't need the traditions of our past to shackle me. Really what's probably going on is it's inconvenient. But even deeper than that, deeper than that issue of well that's inconvenient for us to go out and get married. It's inconvenient for me to publicly join the church. Deeper than that I think is the issue of just wanting to remain in control. Public commitment of any kind is a little death. You lose control. You lose a hand in it. Like if you get married, you are saying my life is not my own anymore. My life has now been wedded together to this other life. Now my previous life where I was single and I could do whatever I wanted on the weekend. I could spend my money however I wanted. That part of you now dies. That's why so many people are scared of getting married. They think that the surrender of independence is inherently evil. I think there's an aspect of it. If you make your faith public. This is kind of confusing maybe in some way we're talking about it because we're making it sound like there's a way in which you could have this kind of hidden subterranean faith or you could kick it up a level and then join a church. Simplicianus is saying no. You either trust in Jesus all the way or you don't. You can't be halfway married. You're either married or you're not. Definitely. I think when you draw that specific distinction. You can't be halfway married. I think that draws it perfectly. I think most people who aren't Christian and aren't really aware of that has to be a whole commitment. A lot of people who are non-Christian would be like, why does this have to take up so much of your life? That doesn't make sense. That would be a common perspective of someone who isn't in Christ. In reality if you're not willing to commit all of you, then you're just not committing any of you. Exactly. That's why Simplicianus seems like a strong barb to throw at someone who's like, hey, I'm a Christian. I'll believe it when you get baptized. No, you're not. Especially because Victor Agnes was like a celebrity. A public figure intimidating. You don't want to ruffle the feathers, but he's bold. That's because so many people have the idea that Jesus is like a dummy vitamin that you supplement your life with. It's a nice addition. That's why I think people are confused. Why would you go so overboard on religion? Why would this be so demanding of your life? Isn't this just here to enhance your life and make it better? Meditation or mindfulness or get a dog and go on walks. Think of it as a healthy habit compared to So this idea of he is the sovereign lord who is king over everything and he calls me to submit to him that's a different perspective than a government. Absolutely. I think that's the perfect way to describe it. It's way deeper, way more powerful and so yeah, it's a perfect way to tie up. You can't just be half in, half out. It doesn't work that way. So that's kind of the bow tie there. Next, it does end up saying that he was able to later drink in the courage from his avid reading and come to fear that he might be disowned by Christ before his holy angels if he feared to confess him before men and women. So if he can't make the commitment and go all in if he can't marry that bride. He's not going to get married. Exactly. He's going to lose it all. I think that's great to see and then from there, I think that's just hugely encouraging. He stayed, he was consistent in it and over time kind of the seed slowly grew and then finally it blooms. That's great to see and he finally threw off the shameless, the shamefacedness provoked by vanity and became modest in the face of truth. I think that's a great thing is again, it's turning away from that prior perspective and losing a little control. That's exactly what I see there is just letting go of the grip of your own kind of lifeline a little bit in that sense of if you're wrestling with control the whole time, you're going to lose out on the much bigger picture. Do you remember what it was like when you were converted? Do you remember the feeling of like, I don't know, that public embarrassment maybe a bit? Oh definitely. I think that it's hard for most people to face and that's why I think this was such a perfect story to draw because it's so applicable to everyone's experience, well at least everyone I know's experience coming to faith and making that public and really taking that stand, getting baptized, everything that comes with that is you're worried about what people think of you. You're worried about what your life will look like afterwards, the relationships you might lose, the image the kind of facade you've built for yourself. You're going to be one of those people. Exactly, one of those people. That's one of the biggest ways you can shame someone or make people shy about coming out in the faith is those people. You don't want to be that guy, you know, the one that people are critiquing or judging behind your back and you just know that there's that little ah, distaste that people have for Christians at times. Maybe one of the reasons why God lets like crazy people become Christians, like crazy people in the sense of like the person that's like out there doing this thing that's making you embarrassed Yeah, absolutely. Maybe he allows your uncle who's going on about some wild and wacky conspiracy theory just to help us die in our pride and vanity and be like, yep, that person is kooky and now the outside world is going to lump me with that guy with the sandwich board at the street corner, you know, telling everyone the world's ending Absolutely. Just as a way to help me be like, oh yeah I am not controlled by the praise of men but by obedience to God. Absolutely. I think everyone needs a little humility nowadays. I think there's a huge movement of being proud, of standing for yourself and building yourself up. And I think of course, you know, there's some good traits that can come from a little bit of confidence and just like general belief in yourself and capabilities, but I think it is definitely pushed on people to a huge, huge scale nowadays I think that we need to break ourselves down a little bit and I think that's yeah, like you said, that's why we're put in this box is God's making us kind of take our medicine. We need to bring ourselves down so that he can be lifted up. Simplicianus obviously had to be pretty confident to tell the local celebrity of the day, you know, like, no, you're not really a Christian Oh, absolutely. Yeah, so being humble is not being, you know, cowardly. But there is yeah, exactly. Humility is what we all need and that's exactly what Victorinus needed and it's what we all need to submit to Christ. No, I think it's great. And then I loved reading that you can't have glory from man and glory from God at the same time. Yeah, that's from John 12. That's one of my favorite verses in the Bible. That's perfect. I mean, that's, yeah, you have to, you can't be half married. You can't be half married. You gotta put a ring on it. There's no such thing as being halfway pregnant, right? Like you're either in or you're out. And in John 12 that's, we're told this little comment that John makes that many people believed in Jesus, but they were afraid of being put out of the synagogue by the authorities because they loved, in John 12, they loved the glory that comes from man rather than the glory that comes from God. When John puts it like that, it's like, oh, well, that's stupid. Why would you want the glory of man rather than the glory of God? But that's what life is like, right? When you're at work and, you know, everyone is making fun of those crazy evangelicals out there who are ruining our country. In the moment, you know, and that pressure to conform, to not stand out, it's immense, right? Yeah, that's hard. It's hard to be that guy. It really is. And I know that I've been in scenarios like that and I've felt myself crawl into a box and, you know, I definitely know I've been a coward at times. And trying to break that shell off of you that kind of tries to put you in a box because you don't want to stand out. It's the same thing that Victorinus was going through. He did not want to stand out. He didn't want to ruffle feathers. And so, yeah, today it's the same issue we face. And maybe that constant temptation that we face is one of the reasons why it's not possible for us to continue to have a private. One of the reasons why God made it necessarily public and communal is to help us fight against that. Like, you've got to step out and do it. Yeah, absolutely. Be bold for God. If you don't feel bold, like, I kind of feel cowardly. You can be cowardly and have a moment of courage and be like, okay, I'll do it. This is a ridiculous example, but if you were embarrassed to be married but you got married, at that point, the fact that you got married now it pushes the threshold for you. You can't undo that. You're married. Subjectively, maybe you still feel that, like, I'm embarrassed a little bit. But the fact that you did it, that now pushes. You're going to have to have courage now at this point. Someone could be embarrassed. I mean, someone could be embarrassed to follow Christ. It's a tragedy, right? And that needs to be repented of and changed. But submitting to baptism, joining the church, standing up and confessing your faith, that pushes you up into where now all of your friends, all the cool kids that you're terrified of losing their approval, well, you just lost it. Absolutely. You don't have it anymore. And that may be God's grace to actually give you courage to lose faith. And then you don't have the glory that comes from men anymore. All you have is the glory that comes from God. That's perfect. I love that. Yes, that's beautiful. And we do see that Victorinus, he joined the church, he was baptized, and he turned. And it just shows us we can do it. We can break out of that shell. I think that's just perfect. I felt that same way, trying to wiggle through that kind of obstacle course of my own feelings of myself, trying to avoid my own shame or embarrassment. And I came up in the Catholic church, so it's not like I came up without a faith or in a religious environment. But it was during that time that for a lot of people, it's having no religious background and then kind of being introduced and wiggling in that way. For me, it was making the conscious decision to leave the church that I'd grown up in since I was five years old. And I think that was tough for me for a whole different reason. I had all my other friends getting confirmed in that church. So that was a unique process, I think, for me in that specific time and making the conscious decision, even though I hadn't even started the process, going into that timeline. So it was a very kind of busy time period for me in faith, being able to shake free and let God kind of actually lift me up and let me really make the move, I think, was just, yeah, it's truly a blessing, is leaning on the glory of God instead of the glory of man, trying to not look specifically for the validation of those around you and the public and wider perspective. That's courage, Mason. I think it's one thing to, like I wasn't, when I came to faith, I wasn't even in a church. I think that's almost harder, to be in, you were in the Catholic church, to then leave that. Because that's harder to me. I think it was different. I think I did have a lot of familiarity, at least with a religious setting. And the reality is, in my own head, I built it up more than it really was. Kind of like I was saying, that fear, that shame, not a single person in my life gave me a hard time with God, just to clarify. Not a single person. Everyone was hugely supportive. People showed up for me to hear my testimony and watch my baptism. It was beautiful and great and a hugely uplifting experience. Isn't that funny? That always is. We do. We inflate the fear in our mind of, if I tell this person that I'm a Christian, if I invite them to church, if I share the gospel, they're going to hate me. Most of the time, people are kind of like, no. When you said the words brave associated with that, I kind of cringed a little inside. I was like, I don't know if that's how I describe my actions. That's how it feels in the moment. It feels that way. It's hilarious. It's the things that we prioritize. We try to live in the glory of man instead of the glory of God. Keep on rooting back to that. It was Luke 9.26 that you referenced in here. Let me find it real quick. For whoever is ashamed of me and my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. Can't be ashamed of God. Bow tie, wrap around it, lock it in. Lastly, I kind of want to touch on just a fun way to end it. I just categorize joy. That is kind of how we wrapped up in your article here, talking about the community of church. The good things that come on the other side of that move. I just kind of touched on it. After I got baptized, throughout the whole process as well, of course, but getting baptized, sharing my testimony, meeting other Christians, and kind of just feeling that embrace, that is a hugely encouraging experience in itself. Just having other people that are openly supporting you. Not just happy for you and your hobby, the way that some people out there might consider it. Like, oh, that's a cool thing for you, man. But having people that genuinely are passionate and care about exactly what you are doing and care about your life and your heart and your soul. I think the best line that you closed with, joy reaches its consummation when it is shared. That's just a cool sentence, man. I mean, that's awesome. I know. When I was originally writing this article, I started writing more just on that. But then I decided to just cut it short. Can I just read some from Augustine's Confessions? In the close of the story, Victorinus decides to take his faith public, to bring it to the church. And so Augustine tells us, Eventually the time came for him to make his profession a faith. As he climbed up the steps of the church to repeat the Apostles' Creed, they all shouted his name to one another in a clamorous outburst of thanksgiving. Everyone who knew him, that is, and was there, anyone present who didn't know him. He passed from joyful mouth to joyful mouth among them all. Victorinus! Victorinus! Spontaneous was their shout of delight as they saw him, and spontaneous their attempt of silence to hear him. With magnificent confidence he proclaimed the true faith, and all the people longed to clasp him tenderly to their hearts. And so they did. And rejoicing with him for those affections were like clasping hands. We spend most of this conversation talking about the fear and what you lose by taking your faith public. There's a lot you gain. A family of faith who they love the same thing you love most. They are there to worship King Jesus. They love the glory of God. And so they love you. Your faith is personal. It's always personal. You will not come to faith in Jesus because of the country you live in, because of the socioeconomic status you possess, or your family. You must personally submit to Jesus. The personal thing. But it is never private. It is deeply personal. But faith is public. And it's public to help us cut against those desires we have for the glory of men. But it's also public because Jesus is king over everything. And when we submit to him as king over everything, we're living life the way it should be. You can love anything. A song, a football team, a bowl of ice cream. But if you share it. Watch this. Listen to this. Take this. The joy is enhanced. That's perfect. Joy reaches its consummation when it is shared. That is beautiful. For those who are in that boat of self-belief, or you think you know God, but you don't go to church, you don't have a community of Christians around you that you share your faith with, or you keep it entirely private, locked in its own little kind of box in the corner of your life. It is scary. There are hard things about making yourself take the leap of faith. But the other side is so much warmer. And that's kind of what you've got to realize is it is worth that leap at the end of the day. We talk about all the scary stuff, his own fears. And I talked a bit about my fears and my feelings. But for both of those instances, what was on the other side of it? I mean, the scary side became much less scary. And you realized it's mostly just in your head. And then, again, there's other excuses of convenience, of your time, your allocation of your passions and such. But just realize if you're half married to God, you're not married to God. So, hey, if you like it, put a ring on it. I think that's a good way to wrap that up. Hey, man, that's a good little bow tie. Thank you, guys. Nice, man. I was a brutal start, not going to lie. I noticed how different having a computer versus not, because I was just lost in the sauce trying to find where I was. I know. I was like, dude, I could have just followed my notes, but I was trying to have the same effect of the normal side. And I was like, man, I could have just literally read this line by line and had an easier path to start the pod. So now, I'm... You go from the struggle through the mud so that you never want to get dirty again. You'll probably remember your laptop. So now the question is, how do I share this? The file is 1.85 gigs, so I'm guessing that's going to be... So what's the best? I could put it into a Google Drive maybe? If you could put it into Google Drive and share that, then that would be perfect. Let's try that. And of course, the first day that we have all the avenues to do something with it is the day I forget to. I got told today that I have my YPQA observation with our Area Director, which just means it's Youth Program Quality Assessment. Youth Program Quality Assessment, where we just go through a gazillion things in a book, and they assess every single thing I do from the start of my rotation to the end of it to make sure I'm hitting all these different categories and goals. All right.
