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Kira and Tori are discussing autism and gender identity in a podcast. They talk about the high prevalence of autism, especially in the United States, and how it is often overlooked. They criticize Autism Speaks for focusing on a cure instead of providing support and acceptance. They also discuss the importance of giving individuals with mental illnesses the skills to live with their conditions rather than trying to fix them. They highlight the lack of support for neurodivergent students in schools and the impact it has on their education and well-being. They talk about the high rates of gender diversity among people with autism and how masking, pretending to be neurotypical, can be damaging to their identities. They emphasize the need for more understanding and acceptance for individuals with autism and other neurodivergent conditions. Hi, so my name is Kira. I go to the University of Rhode Island. I am a psychology major and I am joined with Howdy hi, my name is Tori. I am a secondary education and English major at URI. So, we're doing a little podcast. We're going to be talking about autism and gender identity and some of the things that go along with that. Figured that would be a very interesting topic. Speaking of, happy Autism Awareness Month. Oh yeah, it's April. I forgot. Yay, it's Autism Month, guys. So, that's... Did you know one in 36 people in the United States is autistic? That's insane. According to the CDC. That's like 290 million people. Wow, that's actually really crazy. That's a lot of fucking people. And especially when you actually think that that rate is probably significantly higher. And I feel like a lot of people don't talk about this as well because I feel like it's an important subject and I feel like it's under the radar of actually how many people have it and we need to bring it more on topic. Which is why we have this podcast today. Yeah, and especially with companies like Autism Speaks, who... Autism Speaks is like a major autism company and that's where actually the puzzle piece logo that a lot of people know comes from. And they are a fucking disaster. Yeah, they're not the best. I have only bad things to say about them. They spend like 30% of their annual budget on trying to, quote-unquote, cure autism. No, it's insane because there's not a cure to... I have an issue with curing mental illness. Oh, it's so bad. I just did a project myself on this. I feel like it's more important to give kids and people the option and the ways to work with their mental illness or mental disorders or whatever they have, like even anxiety and stuff like that. It's like, yeah, you could have medication and stuff like that, but that's not going to fix everything. You need to give them skills to be able to work with it and be able to live with it and not feel like they're ashamed of it. I feel like that's a huge thing, especially with ADHD, OCD, autism. I feel like those are the three main ones that are shunned. Yeah, and I feel like those are either shunned or you feel like you have to bottle in masking. Masking, oh god. That's so important. We'll get to that later. Yeah, we'll get to that later. But that's a huge thing. You feel like you have to hide how you truly are around people because you don't think they're going to accept how you are, which is horrible. Yeah, and that definitely affects, especially with autism, that definitely affects young kids and how they identify and how they end up with... So, I've actually done a lot of fucking research on this. Kids who have autism tend to actually have reasonably good social skills if they're socialized correctly. Problem is, most kids don't like autistic kids. Dude, it's insane. So, they end up taking up masking and they end up not being who they truly are because they don't want to be shunned. They feel scared to be themselves. I feel like I, myself, also have a... I'm neurodivergent. Same. Yeah. ADHD. I have executive dysfunctioning and I am... The reason I don't have ADHD is because the doctor I go to, I don't have enough of the symptoms. Yeah, fair. And I'm like, okay, that's fine. So, I have executive dysfunctioning and it makes it harder for me to do tests and stuff like that, which makes me have to have stuff for school. And although URI does an amazing job with how they work with kids with the DAI office and stuff like that, they do a fantastic job. I've heard horror stories from other colleges and stuff like that of them not getting the things they need to be able to work. Even in high school, my high school was horrible. They didn't listen to anyone's IEPs or 504s. No, my high school didn't either. Which was horrible. Those are given to students to be able to help them move forward in their education. Never mind that that's, you know, fucking illegal. Yeah, no, it's horrible. But not enough people talk about how schools don't actually care enough about their students that are neurodivergent. No, they don't care enough. Then you have these kids who are struggling and they don't know how to relate to others. And we don't teach enough emotional learning in schools. So, a lack of social skills, lack of emotional learning. And then you have kids who come out and they're just like, oh shit, I have to figure out how to be a person. And then you get to college and you're like, oh, fuck. It's not right. We're kind of setting kids up for failure in the greater sense. It's bad. And going back to autistic kids, we... And just autistic people in general are so hated in a way. They're ostracized. I don't know if that's the right word, but yeah, people generally don't like autistic people. There was a study that got done, I think in 2020. I'll put it on the reference sheet that I'm going to include in this podcast. The ending. So, let me find the guy's name. Yeah, well, you're finding out. It's Saison. It came out in 2017. It was essentially a study that was done where it had two people having a conversation face-to-face, but there was a screen in between them, so they couldn't see each other. So, they weren't affected by seeing each other. So, it was just based off of conversation? Yeah, it was a conversational thing. I think they spoke for three or five minutes. I'm a little bit confused there. I can't remember. But they spoke for either three to five minutes and they had a conversation. And then at the end, they were asked to rank each other. And so, one of these people had autism. One of these people was neurotypical or what some people call holistic, so they don't have autism. And autistic people were rated significantly lower in things like, would you want to? The only things they were rated the same as other neurotypicals, so they had a control as well. Of course. Yeah. You know, it's scientific research. So, like the only things that, gosh, science. The only things that the controls were rated like similarly to the autistic people were, would you want to live near this person? And how smart do you think this person is? In every other category, like, do you think this person is attractive? Would you want to go on a date with this person? Would you want to, like, how, yeah, there were some other questions. I can't remember all of them off the top of my head. But autistic people always rated significantly lower. And keep in mind, these were done with, like, middle-aged people. Like, between, like, 20 and, like, 35, I think, was the average age. Oh, wow, really? Yeah. So, this affects people into adulthood too. Yeah. Which I'm not surprised about. I don't think it's, like, first of all, it's not talked about enough in kids. No. But even worse in adults, I feel like. I feel like we talk more about, like, high school age. Yeah, we do. And, like, first of all, can I talk about that study real quick? That's such a, like, it's, like, building into the stereotype. It's so gross. That's horrible. It's so gross. Like, I read that, and I, like, I originally read it, and I was going to use it for a different paper. And I just, it made me so sick to my stomach. Ew. To even consider, like, the idea. And I was like, I know, I know, I know that's true. But, like, I don't want that to be true. Yeah, like, they, like, really push into the stereotype stuff. Oh, do you think this one's attractive? And stuff like that. Yeah. Okay, so why was this study made in the first place? Well, it was to discuss, like, snap judgments on, like, people. It was going over, like, snap judgments between neurotypical and autistic people and, like, if there was, like, a difference on, like, how they viewed these people or, like, how they viewed autistic people. Right. And they did find, obviously, they found a link. Oh, absolutely. Like, even from what you're saying, the only things that were, like, higher, like, were, like, equal was the live in the same neighborhood or neighbors and how smart you are. Which is also, again, leading into the stereotypes. So stereotypical. Okay, can I talk about this real quick? I did a project on autism in my high school years. And I looked at, like, mainstream media and movies and how they treat autistic kids. It's the Rain Man thing. I talked about Rain Man. Honestly, that was the best of them. Because at least it was, like, positive. Yeah. But, like, there's other movies. Again, like, The Accountant, that's another one. That's, like, you're not doing a good job. You're not doing a horrible job, but you're not doing a good job. But then that show was, like, The Good Doctor. Oh. And they were pushing into the subject of, oh, if you're autistic, you're highly intelligent, which is not true for every single one of them. It's true for about 10% of the autistic population. No, exactly. And so it really pisses me off that we put this, like, this stereotype of, oh, if you're autistic, you're smart, so you should look at that as a plus sign when that's not truly all that there is. And also the fact that there's so many, like, there's so many comorbidities that also go along with autism. So, like, dyslexia, dyscholia, there's a lot of, like, general, like, high, like, impact learning disabilities that are common comorbidities. So then you have these kids who are autistic and are also dealing with these comorbidities that may have never been diagnosed. So then the kids are, like, oh, I'm stupid. And you, like, end up with this really negative, like, association. And then that also leads into, like, a lot of different things with identity because, like, it affects your identity so severely when you consider yourself, quote, unquote, dumb. Right. And that, like, that can severely impact a kid's, like, psyche. And even, like, going into adulthood, like, their psyche. Like, I've always considered myself dumb because I can't do math. You know? I get it. I had an undiagnosed learning disability, turns out. But, like, hey, same for me. Yeah. My entire high school career, I didn't know I had anything. There was a handshake there. There was a handshake. Yeah, no, I didn't learn. I knew that there was something. And I kept on pushing, like, my therapist, first of all, to, like, help me, like, find someone. But they always, like, said, oh, no, you're just anxious. Yeah. And, hey, turns out, it's not just that. It's not just that. Shocker. But, like, even, like, when I tried pushing it with my mom, she was just like, if you are, we'll get you tested after high school, which I was fine with. But, like, I was trying to. It's so expensive. No, that's the issue. Like, healthcare doesn't take care of it, really. No. Like, they might give you, like, a discount on it, but, like, it's not going to take care of all of it. You know, I just sent in. Are you good? Yeah, sorry. Okay. Sorry, just coughing. Yeah. So I just sent in. I did neuropsych testing, which is how you get diagnosed with autism or ADHD or any of these learning disabilities. Literally everything. It cost me over $1,000. Yeah, I know. And my insurance took care of zero of it. Jeez. And that was definitely an expense and definitely a barrier when it also comes to, like, figuring out, like, so many people identify with, like, learning and, like, social disabilities and, like, even regular disabilities because, like, we have such a societal thing on, like, identifying with the things, the labels that you have. And, like, having a disability is a label, obviously, but it can also, like, help you associate with other people and, like, help you figure out things about yourself. And so not having that label can lead to, like, such a big impact. And just having it is, like, you must have seen this. Like, having that label is just a little bit relieving. Yeah, it relieves you so much. And speaking of, like, having, like, labels and stuff like that, let's get into gender. Oh, yeah. Yeah, our whole purpose here. Yeah. Which I think is, like, first of all, this is very interesting. You just told me about this, Kira. Start recording. Sorry about that. We have a mild interruption. Back to what we were saying about gender and labels. Okay, yeah. Okay, so when we're talking about, like, gender and especially with, like, autistic people, there is so much diversity in the labels. It's actually really kind of crazy. Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. Like, first of all, for gender, there's more. We'll just define gender real quick. Yeah, gender first and then everything else. Gender first, everything later. So you have the difference between, like, gender and sex. So, like, I always, whenever I, like, so I'm non-binary. So how I explain, like, gender versus sex to people is, like, so my sex is, like, what I was born and, like, assigned at birth. So I'm AFAB, so assigned female at birth. So I'm biologically female. But my gender is non-binary because, like, gender is typically, like, gender is more of a feeling and sex is more of your biology. So, like, it gets tricky, especially with, like, when you bring in, like, more things, like intersex or transgender people. And, like, that gets a little bit more messy. But, like, quickly, though, just to define transgender, it's when you don't, like, feel personal with your own sex. It's a disconnect between biological and, yeah, sex and gender. Thank you. Yeah, no problem. And typically that comes with, like, dysphoria, which is, like, the distressing feeling that a lot of people get over their body. Like feeling wrong in your body. Feeling wrong in your skin because that can definitely affect your brain. And anyone can, like, deal with, like, body dysmorphia, but, like, for, like, transgenders and transgender people. For people that are transgender, they deal with a different type of body dysmorphia, dealing with more of they see themselves and they aren't comfortable with how they look in one way or another based off of what makes you your gender. Yeah, so typically you have, like, also there's, like, feelings on, like, wanting to, for example, be treated as the other gender or wanting to get rid of, like, primary sex characteristics. So, like, someone who is assigned male at birth wanting to, for example, get rid of their penis. So. Or, like, if you are female and you want to have top surgery and go into it because you don't feel comfortable with having any type of breast. Breast. Which all of this is very valid. Yeah. But going with it with autism, would you like to explain a little bit? Yeah. Because, honestly, I would like to learn more from you about it. Okay. So you, so on average, people who have autism are way more, like, gender diverse. Like, so meaning they tend to have, like, more gender different feelings. Like, so they're not typically on the, like, normal gender spectrum. So they tend to more, more, more, when compared to cisgender people, people who have autism tend to be more gender diverse. So you have way more people who are transgender or non-binary. And I know I just said that. But, like, so I think it's something crazy. Like, it's a really high percentage. I can't find it. But I don't have the statistics. I think it's something crazy. Like, I think it's almost, like, 30%. Oh, wow. I'll find that statistic for you in a minute. Where is it? Yeah. Yeah. But it's something crazy. And especially even, like, parents have also reported that. And, like, little kids who have autism tend to also have symptoms of gender dysphoria starting really young. And that's, like, we see that in trans kids often. But you don't typically see it as often as you do when you're dealing with a kid who has autism. Yeah. And while you look for that statistic as well, while we're on this topic and stuff like that, let's talk a little bit more about masking as well and how that can affect that and stuff like that, too. Yeah. So, like, masks. So, yeah. Masking is basically the idea of, like, correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah. But it's hiding or, like, putting a mask, basically, over how you are or how you act in certain ways to make people around you feel more comfortable around you. Yeah. So, it's... I can't think of the right word. I always say the word facade. Okay. Because I always think that's, like, a good word for it. Because it's almost like putting on a production. Yeah. So, like, we obviously, like... Pardon me. Okay. It's about... I found the statistic. There are about six times more likely to be autistic. Transgender and non-binary people are six times more likely to be autistic. Oh, wow. That's insane. That is very, very high when compared to the normal rate. No, yeah. And especially when you think about how many people, when we talked about earlier, are autistic. Yeah. Like, one in 36, right? Yeah, one in 36. And that number is actually probably higher, too. Yeah. Because we also don't know the exact statistics for, like, people who are assigned female at birth. Yeah. So, we're going to go above time a little bit, I feel like. Yeah, we are. Just because we want to go into detail. Let's go more into detail. It's fine. Yeah. But, masking. So, let's get back to that real quick. So, I always describe it as, like, a stage play or a facade. And it's, like, acting a certain way so that you're more likable to a general audience. So, like, let's say a little... Let's say an adult really likes Frozen. Because autistic people typically have special interests. Yeah. Which is, like, hyper-focus on one thing, very strong interest in, like, one said thing for a long period of time. I know people joke about, like, trains and, like, dinosaurs a lot for it. But I feel like... Those are common. Yeah, those are common ones. Yeah. So, like, okay, let's pick trains. Yeah. So, let's say there's this man who's in a workplace, and he loves trains. And he loves to talk about trains. His coworkers might not want to hear about trains. His boss doesn't want to hear about trains. And he could lose his job over it. And he could lose his job over that. And it's so, like, frowned upon in our society. To have any type of special interest. To have any type of special interest, especially as a girl. Oh, my God. It is horrible. It's so bad. And, like, I know this example was of a guy, but, like, girls, it's specifically bad. But, like, you could lose your job. You could lose friends over wanting to talk about this one thing. Or being, like, hyper-obsessed with this one thing. And I know as a woman, like, being shut down or shut, like... Oh, it's so bad. Because of it. Yeah. Like, hey, let's stop talking about this now. Like, I'm fine with if you want to change subjects. But telling me that, okay, this has gone on for long enough now and stuff like that. Yeah. Like, that's rude. Or just, like, ignoring me at that point. Tell me you don't want to hear it anymore, and that's fine. But just completely... It shuts people down. Yeah. And it's not great. And they act like we can't notice that. Yeah. It's like, oh, they won't notice if I just shut down right now. It's like, oh, okay, now I'm going to shut up because I can see that you're not interacting with this. I notice. I know my hyper-interest in Skate the Infinity is a little annoying. But I want to talk about my characters that I like. And the book I'm reading, and the fan fiction I'm writing, and so on and so forth. It's all clear. It's important to me. And, like, when you mask, you put on this sense of, like... I'm normal. I'm normal. I'm very normal. Which is the best. I hate saying it like that. Not only very normal, but, like, you don't talk about your special interests. Or you talk about it in a, quote, unquote, acceptable amount. Yeah. And, like... You act as if you're neurotypical. Yeah. You're a neurodivergent in a neurotypical world. Yes. And you're trying to act as if that's fine. Exactly. And that is in... Because we're living in a world that's not made for us. No. Yeah. And, like, especially when that comes down to, like, gender. It's already an issue. It's so... It's like... Because masking is typically so stereotypical. Because how do you make a mask of a person that you don't know? Yeah. It's always going to be stereotypical. It's always going to be a performance. And it's typically based on media prevention. To, like, shows and, like, what you see from other people. And then also what you see from media. So you're seeing the, quote, unquote, like, good parts. But, like, those can also be major negatives. And, like, you make that your personality. And you accept that as your personality. But that's not you. Yeah. There's actually... I read a bit about this concept. Because I heard it from, like, a YouTube video, I think. It's called, like, audigender. Hang on. I think I know what you're actually talking about. Okay. Okay. So that is, like, it's the combination. It's literally a combo word of autism and gender. Yeah. Because it heavily focuses on masking. Yeah, yeah. Because it essentially is, like... So there's a big trend right now for autistic people to, like, learn how to unmask. So that's, like... Oh, I've seen that and stuff like that. Yeah. And I'm, like... So, like, people... That's so hard. Yeah. After, like, years and years of doing it. Like... I'm going to get a little off topic so that we do touch on this point as well. As a kid, especially in, like, girls and stuff like that, you were talking about... This was very fascinating to me. How girls that have autism can't, like, connect with girls that are neurotypical and stuff like that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I feel like... I think we talked about that earlier. I don't think we actually talked about that. Like, typically... Yeah. I'm just going to say the full thing. It's, like, girls are... Autistic women are more likely to find comfort amongst boys. And it's actually... Certain studies call it, like, extreme male brain phenomena. I hate that. It's just horrible. I hate that language. But that's what that's on, like... That's another idea on, like, the gender piece of it as well. Because you could be... I can't think of a word. Word? You could be neurotypical. Transgender or... Oh, non-binary. Non-binary. Thank you. I did nothing. You could either... You could be non-binary or transgender. But you could also just be... Cis. Cis. Not... Which is identifying as the gender you were assigned at birth, in case you didn't know. Yeah. And by pushing this idea of, oh, like, hyper male guy, like... Stupid. No. That's going to make them feel horrible about themselves as well. And, like, I feel like that's another thing that goes along with gender. You can, like... If you are comfortable hanging out with a certain group, that doesn't mean anything about how you are. No. And if you're comfortable with who you're around, then that's wonderful. If you're not comfortable with how you're acting around other people, that's the issue. Yeah. You should be comfortable with whoever you are around, and you should be able to be yourself. Especially if that correlates with your gender. If you can't show who you really are around people, that can really, like, mentally, like... Fuck you up. I don't know how else to say it. No, yeah. And it really just screws you over. Because, like... Like, I know a lot of people that, like, live their life fearing of, like... First of all, their parents finding out about certain things. But also their friends, like, disowning them because they're different than them. And, like, if you're autistic, you already don't know, like, as well as social cues, because you're pushed down by society already, and you have to mask everything. So if you don't understand your own gender, you can't express how you really want to be. Yeah. And, like, that's especially so important because, like... Oh, we're going to bring in psych class here. We've been talking about, in my developmental psych class, we've been talking about, like... Identity completion. Okay. So that's, like, when you've, like, finally achieved this, like, end goal of being who you are and who you want to be, that it's, like... That is, like, the greatest success in life that we've, like, talked about so far is one of those great things is, like, figuring out who you actually are. And it made me so upset when I came back and used that on this project, and I was just like, damn. So we condition autistic people to never be who they are. It was just horrible. And that, like, imagine how much that sincerely fucks up people. No, yeah. And, like, especially right now, it's, like, we live in such a polarized society for, like, gender, too. Yeah. I don't know if you know, but there's, like, something like over 400, like, anti-trans bills being looked at across the country, and that's, like, going to affect a lot of people. It is going to affect a lot of autistic people, too. Like, it's going to affect plenty of regular people, or neurotypical people, but also lots of autistic people. And, like, generally very bad. This is just more pushing them in a grave that they will never be able to get out of. Yeah, and it's upsetting. And I feel like we could, as a society, like, society. But, like, as a society, like, we could be more accepting. We could also try and help people. And, like, people shouldn't be ashamed of who they are. It sucks. And they shouldn't try and cure themselves of something that they can't help. There's no curing it. There's no cure. And I feel like that is something that's looked, like, over and stuff like that. Like, I talked about that earlier in this podcast, that you can't cure something like this. No. And even if you could, that would change how you are as a person. I know a lot of people that even have ADHD that don't want to go on medication because that changes how they act. I feel like that would be the same for people that have autism and stuff like that. Like, I couldn't even express how horrible that must be to not only not be able to express yourself and your gender, but not be able to express yourself and how you actually are as well. Yeah, no. It's just, it's deeply upsetting. And, like, it's just, we should fix it. You have a lot of other, like, general, like, how do we fix society as a whole. I think we covered most of it. Yeah. Okay. Perfect. High five. Wonderfully. Thank you for listening to us. Thank you for listening to our rambling. Yeah, because we did ramble a lot. Some of it, yeah. Mine was mostly explanation. I feel like we did a good job with spelling. I feel like we did a good job. And I feel like we hit on everything that we wanted to talk about. Yeah, we did. I had a list. I filled it out. Once again, happy Autism Awareness Month. Happy Autism Awareness Month. Please, if you want to look up more about this, do. Because it's such an important topic to be able to understand. And to be able to get yourself to, like, understand better so that you can help people that might not understand as well or help people in your life that you know have autism. Yeah, and especially with, like, how underdiagnosed autism is, it's a vital subject, like, to just keep yourself educated at a certain point. And then it's just be supportive. That would be my other point. Yeah. Thank you for listening, and have a great night. Bye. Bye.