Phone-call-w-Chelle_2025-05-23

The speaker lost their train of thought and struggled to express feeling hurt and dismissed by their friends during a conversation. They recount feeling vulnerable and upset when their needs were not acknowledged, leading to a sense of betrayal. They also discuss misunderstandings and communication issues with their friend's partner, feeling lied to and unimportant. The speaker reflects on the complexity of sharing perspectives and emotions within their social circle, seeking understanding and clarity in their relationships. Oh, jeez, I just lost my train of thought. Um, no, I, the, the, it was the follow-up conversation, I think, however many days afterwards, um, and it was more compounded, and I, and I still wasn't angry, I think I was just more hurt, um, and it was compounded because you and Liam separately, um, uh, responded in a similar way, um, when I was sharing how, um, I felt, which was by saying something along the lines of, like, I didn't think that there was anything that you needed aftercare for, um, and, like, very pointedly holding me accountable for not expressing my needs, which, like, I recognize and in general appreciate, and also just, like, was not in the space to receive that in that moment, like, I really just needed a little bit more care to, like, feel seen and heard, and it just felt like my feelings about the whole situation were being dismissed by both of you, and, like, I was crazy, and, like, there was nothing that we did that would have constituted the need for aftercare when in my mind there very, very much was, so it was just very, like, it felt, like, hurtful to have that, um, be the response I received when I was feeling so vulnerable, you know, and, yeah, and I think that is probably the only thing that I said, um, about you in that situation because you didn't do anything otherwise, like, to hurt me, like, you were just there, like, I don't know what you knew beforehand, I don't know whether or not you knew that I had made a bid weeks before to stay that night and that he said no the day before you guys left for your trip, um, and, like, he's apologized to me since then for all of that and how he handled that and, like, recognizes how fucked up that was, um, but, yeah. Yeah. Well, and I can understand feeling, um, dismissed in that, and I apologize for my contribution to that, right? Um, I went into that weekend, and it feels like forever ago, and it really wasn't, like, I went into that weekend with the understanding that I thought you guys had figure your whatever out, right, um, not knowing exactly what that was, right, because that's not always my business to know. Mm-hmm. Um, but I can understand, like, the feeling of that. Sorry, I don't want to interrupt you, but, like, we, so we did get time that Thursday, and we had repaired, and I think we're both feeling fairly okay from, from stuff the weeks before. Um, he, um, he did not tell me that he was going to ask you to stay Sunday night. When he, when he told me that Thursday that, like, the exact words he said was, I don't think I want you, I don't, I don't want to spend Sunday night with you, and so I took that to mean that he needed a solo night because he had gone the entire week with days there, and then was going to be with you the entire weekend, and I know he's an introvert, still don't understand it, but I get it, like, in that it's a thing that he needs, so because he, he said it in that way, I made the assumption that he was going to spend Sunday night by himself, which I was fine with, like, and I understood. I was disappointed, but it was fine, so it was an immense shock to me when we got back, and he basically kicked me out, and you were saying, because that is not information that I had, and, like, I can't remember, it was, I think it was, it was after that. There was another day, oh, it was the day that you brought me my mouth. He and I were having coffee, and just, like, chit-chatting and checking in about, like, what the rest of our day looks like, and he proceeded to tell me everything that he was doing that day, like, going to pick up his bike with Dirk, and then coming back, and then, like, had blocked off time, like, on his schedule to unfuck his house, and, like, didn't tell me that you were coming over at all, like, didn't mention at all that you were helping, until, like, you said that you could drop off my mouth on your way to his place, and then I was, like, did he forget that you were coming over, because, like, he's going up to wherever, like, fucking North Phoenix, or wherever he went to get that bike, so I was, like, Shel knows you're going to get that bike, right, and he was, like, oh, yeah, like, there should be plenty of time for me to get back, whatever, and then, like, I was texting with him later that night, and just, like, you know, how was your day, blah, blah, blah, like, what are you up to tonight, and he did the same thing, where, like, he told me what he was up to that night, and didn't say, and, like, he made it sound like both times that he was doing all of that by himself, and so, like, I circled back with him, like, the next week, or the next time we had a date night, and I was, like, hey, do you realize, like, you did this, like, you shared all of these things, and you made it sound like you were doing them all by yourself, but you weren't, and he was, like, oh, no, I didn't realize I was doing that, and I was, like, okay, you did, and he was, like, okay, I will work on not doing that anymore, and I was, like, okay, like, you don't, like, I don't know if you're just, like, subconsciously self-editing, because you think I'm going to be upset or something, but I'm not, and, like, I'm more upset, like, that you would be hiding things from me, because, especially because, like, the way he views the world, he views withholding as lying, and so, like, if I'm operating, like, I don't necessarily always view withholding as lying, because I know, for me, my brain, like, if it's not important, then I don't think always to share it, but, like, there have been enough times where that's happened, and he thought that I was hiding something from him when I wasn't, where now I'm, like, okay, if that's the framework that you're working with, then you're lying to me right now, and that feels real shitty, you know? Yeah, for sure. So, like, yeah, I can, I get that. It was, so that's kind of where I was at with that, like, I just, I didn't know you were saying, and it was a surprise, a not great surprise, and, like, not only did it feel like I was being rejected, that my feelings weren't important, my needs didn't matter, it also felt like, on top of all of that, he lied to me. And I'm assuming you guys have talked through that piece at this point? Yeah, yeah, and like I said, like, he apologized and, like, recognized that he, he didn't really handle that situation in the best way, which I appreciated. Just, like, there's, I mean, there's been a few times like that where I've had to help him perspective take and not, like, hey, if I did this, like, how would you feel? Like, if I went out of town for the first time with Cody, and you made a bid for my time when I came back, and I said no, and then turned around and gave it to him, like, how would you feel? And he was, like, able to see that, like, he would be real fucking upset. So, but yeah, I kind of tangented there a little bit, and I didn't mean to, but I just, it helps to have a little bit more context for that comment, because I was, my, like, my brain was, like, searching, I was, like, who did I say what to? And, like, how was that misinterpreted? Or, like, did I, did I say something, you know, I was just kind of, like, spinning out a little bit, like, trying to figure out whether I said something that came across in a way I didn't mean it to, to somebody, or if somebody, like, betrayed my confidence. Because, like, when I externally process with people, I pick and choose. Like, I have the people that I'm closest to that I usually am pretty unfiltered with, and then I have the people who are, like, another circle out that I trust enough to process with, but I edit myself a little bit. So. Well, and I think, too, like, being in, like, the thick of the emotion, right, me saying, feeling villainized, like, if I can zoom out, like, at this point where I have a little bit of space from it, I think that what it, like, what it means for me is, like, me trying to, oh, okay, hold on. Let me figure out my words for this. So, you sharing your story about, like, the events that happened, right? Because, let's be real, every person that we confide in, almost every person that we confide in, are all, we all confide in the same bucket of people, right? So, they're literally piecing together stories from multiple angles, right? Because that's what they do. They, you know, they're somewhere in between all three perspectives, somewhere in between all three perspectives is the truth. And each of our, each of what we say is our truth, and somewhere in between all of that is probably what actually happened. Because we're all, like, all of our shit is colored by our own perspectives and our own frustrations and our own, like, traumas and the things that we bring to the table. So, I think that in all of that, like, for me, it was sharing my, like, hey, this is, like, the perspective that you don't have. And I think that it is me feeling that it's part, so, if parts of the story were left out, and maybe they weren't left out, maybe you shared them, and I gave this just additional context to that. No one is saying that you're villainizing me other than me, okay? So, that statement is wholeheartedly, like, my emotional upheaval of, like, what's been happening, right? And I think that I felt that, I think that me saying that is, was, like, a culmination of reflecting back on that experience and also what you've already kind of addressed, which is, like, asking for additional clarity, feeling, like, pressure, right? So, I don't, like, again, zooming out. I don't think that that's what you're trying to do, Cameron. I think it was a statement that I made in, like, frustration of feeling like there's gaps in the story because my perspective isn't involved and not feeling good about, like, feeling like I had to, like, defend my position, right? And I don't mean that I felt like I was being defensive, but there, over the last few weeks, it's kind of felt like I've had to, like, reiterate why I'm in the space that I'm in. And I don't want to keep rehashing that with you because I can, like, settle out and go, you know what? Like, let's kind of start fresh to the degree that we can, right? As long as we can feel resolved surrounding those things and say, like, we, I think both of us can say, like, we have not been our best selves recently, right? And there's a lot of layers to that because it's, like, intermingling between, I know you've had a lot going on between the HRT staff and, like, school and life and momming. And I know that things have been hard for you and Liam, and I've had a lot going on in my own separate world, not involving Liam, but then also the intricacies of, like, all of this. And then our social landscape is crazy and, like, all over the place, right? So, like, I, you know, I want to, I think that the last few weeks I've been, like, I don't know how to show up as a good friend because I know so much of what we've been dealing with has had this interconnectedness with Liam. And there has been this feeling that I've had of, like, I can't win here. Not that I'm trying to win, but, like, I can't win in terms of, like, being a good friend or being a good, you know, person that's dating Liam. I can't be a good X, Y, and Z because there's so many, like, intricacies and I, like, it's paralyzing, right? So, the easiest, softest way, and it wasn't easy or soft, is to say, like, I just can't talk about him with you because it kept, like, muddying for me. Like, it became really hard for me to, like, keep my relationship with Liam, my relationship with Liam, and my relationship with you, my relationship with you, right? So, like, that's where that line came in for me where I was, like, this is just, it's kind of becoming a space that I can't have any type of, like, middle ground because there's too much overlap and intricacies in the issues that are happening. And I don't want to be involved in, you know, I don't want to be more involved than I have to be in something that doesn't impact me or shouldn't impact me, which, you know, one could argue with the intricacies of our social circle, it doesn't really matter. Everything impacts everything, right? But we're also all adults and we can all find ways to, like, intermingle and interact and be, like, good people and good humans with each other regardless of, like, the the interconnectedness of a relationship, like, a romantic relationship. Does that make sense? Yeah. So, yeah. So, all of that to say, like, I don't think that anybody, in my perspective, in my perspective, people were not betraying their confidence. They were giving them, like, a culmination of, I think, two parts of the story, and I had to fill in the gap of, like, this was my side and my kind of experience in this, and my perspective from that was, because of what I shared, that gaps were missing, and I think the part for me was, like, Cameron didn't fill this part in. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just throwing this out there, but, like, if gaps exist like that, I just want you to know that it's because I don't understand something, not because I'm intentionally leaving parts out to make anybody look bad. That's never, ever what I want to do, and I believe that. I believe you. I 100% believe you, because it's something that I've, I mean, you kind of, like, educated me and, like, helped me understand, like, I know that, I know that the, but there was a comment that you made in one of your messages about, like, neurospicy versus not neurospicy, and it kind of, like, it hit me in a hard way, because I really try to understand, and I know that I don't have your brain. Like, I get that, right? But, like, there's a lot of clarity that I try to provide, and I try to be as clear as I can and as, like, detailed as I can, and I think I just hit, like, the limit of my ability to try to be clear in that, and I know that that was hard for you. Like, I know that that was hard for you. For me to do that, it was hard, it was hard for me to do it, like, for myself. I know that it was probably hard for you to receive that, because I got to a space of, like, it doesn't matter how much I explain this, it's not going to make sense, and I can't keep exhausting trying to figure out how to make it make sense, because clearly I can't communicate it in a way that is, that sounds like a dick, I'm not trying to sound like, that your brain will, like, wrap around, right? Because we just think very differently, and that's not a knock on you, that's not a knock on being neurospicy, like, it's just, I, like, there's, there's, like, a communication gap there, and I don't know how to fix that, right? So, yeah. Yeah, I get that, and I think what you're, like, I could read the exasperation in your tone of your last message, and so, like, that, I took that, and I really, like, you know, in some ways, like, that was helpful for me, because, like, it helped me realize that there was something, like, that I, like, something more that I was missing around, like, how I was communicating, like, I still felt like there was stuff that I was missing about the situation, but, like, I hadn't really realized that there was something missing about how I was communicating, and so, like, I use my resources, and my AI clone, and your AI clone, to try to help me fucking understand neurotypical communication, because, and, like, how I communicate, and, like, where there was stuff missing there, and, like, I've kind of been using that a lot to try to unfuck myself, and, like, I didn't realize, like, like, my need to understand things, especially when I feel confused, it sometimes turns into this pattern of questioning that, like, I didn't realize before, but probably felt like I wasn't respecting your boundaries, and, like, that obviously wasn't my intention, and, but that was the impact, right, so, like, I'm trying, I'm working on finding other ways to try to get clarity without putting pressure on someone else, because it's, you're not the only one, like, we, like, that was a problem with me and Liam in our relationship, too, like, the, um, yeah, just that, like, difference in, in, like, me wanting clarity, and wanting to understand something, like, like, it really is never about me asking somebody else to justify themselves, right, like, no is a full sentence, what it is, is me trying to wrap my mind around, like, what it means, and how we got there, and, like, what my part was, and maybe, like, how I need to be accountable, or what I need to do differently, or, like, how my impact landed, like, in a way that I didn't intend to, intended to, and, like, getting explanations for, like, how did we get here, why are you asking me to do this, why are you asking for these boundaries, like, those are questions that fill in that, those gaps for me, so that I understand, um, not because I want to argue with you or try to change your mind, but because I honestly want to know, like, how we can relate better. Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. Um, I had, like, a couple other insights, um, in my reflections the last, like, week or so that I've kind of come to understand ways, like, more clearly about how I've shown up, and, like, where I want to grow, and, and I wanted to share, share some of them with you, too, because I think that they're important, and, um, and they're not just specifically related to you or to Liam, but, like, both, and also, like, more broadly, um, if, if you're open to hearing them. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay, um, I think probably the biggest thing that I've realized is how much I lost myself in my relationship with Liam. Um, I basically made him the center of my world, and the authority on everything on non-monogamy, on relationships, and, um, with all of the hormonal suffering that I was having, like, that started this, like, internal dysregulation, and, like, internal insecurity that was just exacerbated by, like, him, um, by you guys starting to date, and, like, when, when things started feeling shaky in our relationship, I just, like, I spiraled, because, like, it didn't, it didn't feel safe for me on the inside, and then it didn't feel safe for me in the only safe, like, relationship, and the only safe person that I had. Um, and I see how that, like, pain and insecurity spilled into my relationship with you, and I'm really sorry for that. Um, and I kind of more broadly realize how, like, um, like, I can see now that in moments of pain, I often reach out for empathy without realizing, um, I might have been asking you to take on emotional labor, or other, not just you, but, like, whoever I'm talking to, to take on emotional labor that wasn't consented to, um, and, like, in all of this, like, in all of my processing with people, and, like, I mean, I think probably mostly lately, like, Liam and then you, and then Ryan and Jacob, like, I wasn't trying to put any of you in a caretaker role, but I can understand how it might have felt like that. Um, and then, like, I think I touched on this before, but, like, the, you had mentioned something about, like, timing and delivery of messages and stuff, um, and it got me thinking just about, like, how and when I message people, and, like, I realized that, like, how, like, it can be intrusive to just kind of, like, message my emotional landscape to somebody, like, without asking them first if it's okay, and, like, especially with you when you, like, were on dates with Liam, um, like, even, even though I was overwhelmed in those moments, like, I understand now that it wasn't fair to bring that to you when you hadn't agreed to be in that space with me. Um, I think that I sometimes equated being authentic with, like, needing to share everything in the moment, and, like I said before, like, that urgency, like, when I feel something or, like, when, when I'm in it, like, to express it, and, like, I do try to sit with things, and I, and I've gotten better at that, and, like, there was a time, like, around when you guys first started dating, like, I, and my emotions, like, my emotional landscape was just, like, on fire, like, I couldn't, like, everything felt like a 15, like, just totally a huge deal, and, like, I recognized at least that that probably wasn't the case, and that there was something fucked going on, and so then I just, like, clamped everything down, and I didn't say anything about anything for a while, because I, I couldn't discern, and so, like, when I started the HRT, even though the dosing wasn't right, and I didn't have everything that I needed, like, I was starting to come down, like, I had pockets of time where, where I could regulate and be more discerning, and it was kind of almost a trap, because then I, like, started to believe some of the thoughts and the feelings, rather than question them, like, I was questioning everything before, which sucked, and felt really insecure, but also, I think, saved me from lashing out as much as I otherwise would have, and so, like, when I started to think that maybe there was some basis for things, and I started expressing myself more, but I still wasn't being, like, as discerning in my delivery. That makes sense. I appreciate you saying that. I, I think it, I learned from this, too, in terms of, like, you know, I wanted, I wanted to be a good friend and a good mother to you, and I think part of what I get to take away from this experience is being really mindful about, like, does it, does a boundary or does some kind of, like, container around those things need to be implemented sooner, so that way it doesn't, like, completely shake the way that I relate to you or whoever, right, because I don't want it to, like, bubble, and I can recognize that, like, I did allow it to bubble to a point where I was just, like, I have to, like, now set a container around it, and it probably was the worst timing because the bubble had to be created around, I mean, shortly before, like, you guys had your two-weeks of no contact, right, so I recognized that. I mean, I didn't know that that was going to happen at the time, obviously, like, but the timing still was shitty. Yeah. Like, if I would have done that a month and a half ago, right, it probably would have been a little bit different. If I would have created a container around it a little bit differently, maybe right after the whole thing, after public players hop in or what have you, like, it might have looked differently, but I'll say this much to you, Cameron, like, my default mechanism, and Jacob can vouch for this, like, my default mechanism when people, like, come at me or I feel like I'm being come at is, like, cut off, do not contact, do not engage, completely done, and I don't want to do that with you, like, so me taking the space that I have, like, me setting the limits that I have at the time that I did has been in an effort to sustain a connection with you, not to diminish it. It just means that, like, I need a little bit of breathing room, right? Yeah. And so, like, but a hundred percent, my default mechanism is, like, fuck everybody, especially when I'm in, like, a hurt place, right? So my learning lessons are also to be mindful and, like, create containers and boundaries when I feel like they need to start coming up instead of, like, waiting, because I think I thought, I don't know that it would have changed a lot for us, but it probably would have impacted a little bit differently, and I've said this before. I know that I don't know that you believed me when I said it, and it's okay if you didn't, right? Like, my intention is not to not have a friendship with you. Like, I want to have a closeness with you. I want to feel good about it. I wanted that before Liam came into the picture for me, right? Liam added some nuances and some challenges to the whole thing, right? But that doesn't negate the fact that I find value in you as a person, that I find value in you as a friend. The last few weeks have been hard, right? Last two months, however we want to frame it, right? It's been hard, and I've been wanting to hold space for, like, the challenges that we've had and, like, wanting to be a good friend, and then the meta side of it makes it a little bit more complex and all of those things, but, like, regardless of where your relationship is at with Liam, I want to be a good friend to you. I just recognize the limit to my capacity. Like, I recognize that there were pieces of this that I could not show up the way that you would need me to as a friend, and the layers of the complexity of my relationship with Liam made that more difficult, right? Yeah, and I get that. I think now I didn't before because it seemed, like, so out of nowhere. Sure. Like, it felt very much for me like I was blindsided, like, and I get now, like, for you, like, there were things that were, like, compounded, like, that were, like, adding up, and I just didn't, like, I really honestly truly didn't have an awareness of those things, and so, like, it just, it, like, I was just so confused. Blindsided? Yeah, and, like, you, you were probably, like, you were, like, one of, like, you know, a handful of people that I, like, felt, like, was a safe person that I could open up to and be honest and messy with in my feelings, and so, like, it just, I, it really, like, like, that and then the stuff with that was also happening at the same time with Liam and him asking for more space and less time and then the no contact, like, all of that just, like, compounded so hard and triggering my, like, rejection sensitivity and, like, abandonment stuff and, like, I know, I know that, like, I didn't react in my best self and, and, like, and I, and I, like, in, in my reflections too, like, I was thinking about, like, how, like, there were times when, when I talked to you and I shared my hurt, um, especially around feeling like I was being replaced or, like, comparing the timelines of our relationships and, and I was sharing that because I was hurt and I didn't consider, like, how that might land for you, um, and, like, that might have landed, like, me being judgmental or, like, blaming you, which wasn't, which wasn't how I was going, yeah, that's not what I was going for at all, it's not what I meant, but, like, I get how it could have felt that way. I appreciate that and it was, I think it was hard on this side because I was trying to really give grace to that coming from a place of hurt, um, I think where where it, where I struggled with it was, like, it didn't feel like it was getting any better that you trusted that I wasn't trying to do that, um, so when those things would, like, come up, the, the, the frequency with which they would come up, I was, I, I'm a constant, like, am I doing something wrong? Like, am I contributing to this in a way that is unhealthy? Like, is this a me problem or is this a hinge issue or is this, you know, on your plate, right? Like, and it's hard to know, so I think that when those things would come up frequently, I kept coming back to, like, what am I doing to cause this, um, and I don't know how I can make it better. Yeah. Like, I don't know what I can do to make it better and that's the intricacy and the challenge of, like, that meta relationship, right, is, like, wanting to be able to be there for you and validate, like, and tell you, like, girl, I am not, what were your words? Like, I'm not cheering because you're shooting yourself in the dick. Like, that actually makes it hard for me. I don't want that. I don't, like, that actually is the opposite of what I want because I have zero, I have zero desire for either of you to be hurt, right? Like, it does not bring me joy to see the people that I care about in pain, right? Regardless of whether or not there's a perception that I quote unquote benefit from it. Like, that's not how I view the world. That's not how I view non-monogamy. That's not how I view relationships, right? But I can understand that being, like, an intrusive thought, right? Those things that come up. And I think that it was just, for me, it was, like, hard to hear you in those spaces and I think it's hard for me because, like, also it's a mirror. Like, I've been in that space and I am not perfect. I definitely come back into that space from time to time, right? And so it makes it hard because I try to remember, like, what was helpful for me during those times or during those times now when I feel them. And, like, there's a helplessness that comes with I don't know how to make this better and I don't know how to help and I want to be able to share space. But sometimes it is hard to hear, even if you don't believe what you're saying about how I'm showing up or what your intrusive thoughts are saying about how I'm showing up. It's hard to hear me being characterized in that way, even if you're saying that it's not true, right? Even if you're acknowledging that it's an intrusive thought and that's not how you actually view me. Yeah, it does. And, like, I want to be better about being discerning, like, in those moments. And I think maybe I should, like, my part of, like, all of this in the last few months, I'm realizing, like, just how disorganized my thoughts, like, my thought process were. Like, how badly, like, the hormonal issues and deficiencies were exacerbating my ADHD symptoms, too. And just, like, my ability to, like, not just emotionally regulate, but also just, like, formulate my thoughts and, like, organize my thoughts and, like, and stuff. And so, like, it probably really fucking would have helped if I could have prefaced any of that with, like, like, I'm not saying, like, I'm not telling you these things to make you feel any kind of way or because I believe them. Like, I'm telling them to you because saying the things that I'm ashamed of out loud takes some of their power away. And also sharing them with the people that they're about and giving them the opportunity to be like, no, that's not fucking true. And to call, like, to call those thoughts out on their bullshit is really fucking helpful for me. Because especially, especially when I was in such a place of not being able to trust my own intuition, and just, like, not being able to trust myself to know, like, what's real at all, like, having other people reflect back and be like, no, was, was really helpful for me. And I, I'm sorry, I wish I could have realized that at the time, like, to say something like that to you so that you knew, like, why I was sharing that stuff with you. You know, I know that now. You know, I think at the time, it was like it. I think it was like a combination of hearing you say that, and then having like, the emotional reactions. And I'm just like, I don't, I don't know how. I don't know how to help. Yeah. Like, the only thing that I can think of to help is to back away, right? Because it, my presence seems to be disruptive, right? Yeah. And it's not fun or fair for either of us. Yeah. And like, I want, I want to honor that as, as your experience and how you were feeling, and also reiterate, like, your presence was not what was dysregulating or disruptive to me. Like, I, I want to, wanted to and still want to be, like, relate well to you, you know, and like, being able to talk to you and like, you know, have, like, emotional intimacy and like that, like, like hugs and, and stuff like that, just physical affection in that way, like that, that was all very helpful, you know, and I think I, like, I was trying to explain this to Liam the other day, like, I just, there's no real good, accurate way for me to describe, like, how my internal landscape was. And like, being on the testosterone cream now for even just, like, two weeks, it's like starting to kick in and work, like, I can feel it, like, and, and it's just so vastly different. And it pisses me off, honestly, like, I'm so fucking mad at my doctor for not listening to me when I asked her, like, months ago to test my testosterone, because I thought it was a problem, like, and she said no. And, and like, just feeling like the difference in my ability to access my coping strategies and emotionally regulate myself is so wild to me, like, have you seen, you've seen Inside Out 2? Yeah, you know, the, like, towards the end with the anxiety around the, like, control panel, and like, like, like, being in that whirlwind, like, in that, like, anxiety, like, anxiety was kind of in the center of it and kind of like a bubble and had everything going on around. Imagine her being, like, swept up into that whirlwind. And that was my internal landscape. That's what it felt like for me all the fucking time. And, and like, this last week, it's very much been, it's felt more like, I've been able to, like, like, have more of an energy shield, or like a bubble around me and like, slowly, like, inch by inch have been able to, like, push it out further, like, into the chaos and, like, give myself more space. I'm, I'm really glad that you've finally gotten some help on that, because I know that that's been so fucking frustrating for you, especially with the, the hormone thing. And I know you've seen Ryan go through it, right? So that's not, you know, it's not easy. And I think that, like, part of what I was trying to do for the longest time is, like, give grace to that, right? I don't, I, Ryan and I had some really not great interactions in the middle of her struggles with her hormones, too, to the point where we had to kind of do what you and I are doing now, where she had to kind of come around and go, hey, this is how I was showing up. And I'm recognizing these things. And like, are we good? Like, can we, can we come back to a centered place as friends? Because here are the things that I've realized, right? And I, quite frankly, it makes me terrified of the day that I go through it. I know how hard it's been for you guys. Yeah, for real. I've watched you both go through it. And I literally had a doctor's appointment where I was like, I'm thinking about X, Y, and Z for, like, I have an IUD. I want to, like, I don't want fucking kids. Get, get rid of my shit. And then I'm like, what do I, what do I want from that? I mean, on the flip side, if you did that, then you would have, like, a reason for them to be checking your hormones. So you wouldn't have to argue. But you wouldn't have to argue with doctors. You would just be like, I got my shit scooped out. Check my shit. Make sure it's good. I should, I should probably be on hormones. Get ahead of this. So that you're not, like, in retrospect, being like, oh, shit's been fucked for a while. Right. This is real sus. So, like, I, you know, I, like, I very much can honor that this has been, like, it's been a fucking rollercoaster, right? And it's been hard for you. And it's been, I saw Ryan go through it. And, you know, that's part of why for me, Cameron, like, I'm not disappearing off the face of the planet. Like, that is not my intention. My intention was just like, oh, let's get some breathing room. Right. Because I think that it's, you know, I think none of this has been hard. Or I'm sorry, all of this has been hard. None of this is easy. And recognizing, like, I've been doing a lot of my own work in therapy. I have a lot of, so a lot, a lot of, like, what you and I have talked about in terms of, like, you asking for additional clarity and me setting boundaries. There's a lot of stuff that I work on in therapy, too, because I have this habit of over-efforting, over-explaining myself. And so I think when you were asking additional clarity pieces, a lot of that for me was, like, I'm exerting more effort to, like, try to get my point across and it wasn't landing. So, and I know that, I know now, I knew then, right, a lot of that is, like, you just trying to see clarity and me just being at the limit of my capacity to continue to provide clarity. That's not, like, a personal attack. It's just a, this is my bandwidth, right? So, yeah, it's been. And I think it's been a good learning opportunity for me, too, in, like, how I can phrase things and communicate those kinds of questions differently that maybe come across as less, like, I'm trying to get you to justify or, like, over-explain and more like a, like, maybe, like, hey, can you walk me through, like, your mental process or your internal process or experience here because it seems like it's coming out of nowhere and out of the blue and I'm really confused versus, like, why do you want me to do this? Like, I can see how that would maybe land differently. Sure, sure. You know, I think all of us are learning a lot. But, you know, they're better and different. I think that it's important to, like, show up and have the conversations and be able to say, like, this is where I didn't show up well. This is where I probably, like, filled in gaps that I shouldn't have. This is how even when I did have my gaps filled in, I misinterpreted, right? Because I think that happens, too. Like, I think even when clarity is provided, there's still misinterpretations based on what is shared in clarity. I'm not saying that to you specifically. It's, like, to human beings, right? We're still filtering it through our own perspective. Sometimes that can still be fucking damaging or we spin out about it, right? Which is part of why I was trying to be really clear with you in what I was saying. Like, it's not that I don't want to be your friend. Like, it is not that at all. I'm not trying to reject you. I'm not in this place of, like, trying to abandon, right? Like, I'm just in this space of, like, I need a minute. Like, I need to breathe for a second to be able to, like, come back to center and show up as the version of me that I want to be in friendship with you, right? I don't want to feel reactive. I don't want to feel defensive. I don't want to feel like I'm causing problems. And sometimes in order for me to do that, I just need to take a little bit of breathing room and quiet and journal. And sometimes that's a day. Sometimes it's a week. You know, it just depends on, like, where, you know, how far out of my window of tolerance I've gotten. Yeah. And I get that, like, a little bit more now. I think, like, because it was, like, basically the same, like, process was happening with you and Liam. And, like, at this point, like, you guys were, like, two of my closest people. Like, it just, like, it just, yeah. I'm really glad that I found a new therapist and that, like, she and I started doing IFS. And we had our first EMDR session the other day. And I just, like, really realized, like, how much relational trauma, like, I still have from when I was, like, a teenager and all of the, like, girl bullying and, like, rejection kind of abandonment stuff that I experienced and, like, just how that has, like, bled out into, like, this especially and how I'm feeling and, like, the anxiety that anybody asking me for space or anything like that really causes me because, like, my mind just immediately jumps to, like, worst case scenario and, like, just internalizes a lot of that, like, blame and shame kind of stuff. And, like, reinforces that, like, I'm not good enough story. And I'm too needy story. And my emotions are too much for other people's story. And, like, that's just, it's been really hard to hold. And, like, I'm still learning and making mistakes. And I just, I want to repair, like, I wish I could undo and just fix now. And I know that I can't. But I want to do better. And not just for my relationships, but for myself, too. And I just, like, I just, like, you guys are all so important to me. And I love you guys so much. And I just don't, like, I'm really, like, I'm scared that I'm losing everybody. And I hate that, you know, like, not being able to talk to you guys as much has been, it's been really heavy, because, like, and it's like, in all those little ways, too, like, I see a stupid meme or a gif or something, and I want to send it to you guys in our group chat, but I can't because Liam and I were on no contact or, like, whatever, you know, like, and I just felt like you didn't want to talk to me at all. And, like, I wanted to be respectful of the space that you asked for. And, like, my mind was just, like, spinning out trying to connect the dots and, like, understand and coming up with all sorts of stupid conspiracy theories that Jacob very kindly told me were bullshit. Oh, God. Thank God for that, man. I know. I know. For real, like, oh, my God. Like, him and Ryan both, I love them so much for their ability to just, like, very compassionately tell me I'm being fucking crazy. Like, for real. And, like, I'm not gonna lie, like, I think part of, at least, like, at least with you, like, part of the fear there, like, in not having, like, like, part of the, like, trying to figure out and have clarity and understanding, I think, was because, and, like, I didn't realize that at the time, but, like, I'm just kind of realizing it now, is, like, I think probably, like, at a subconscious level, I had this, like, there was, like, fear of uncertainty at the root of it, like, not knowing, like, how long this is gonna last or if this is forever or, like, what, and, like. Like you and I. Yeah, like, I was, I was talking to Liam about it the other day, and, like, he, he kind of highlighted something that I knew in the back of my mind but hadn't really, like, brought to the forefront of my mind, but I think that it was there, like, underneath in that, like, I think he said, like, he, like, had apologized to you in, like, fall of 2022, and it took you two years to agree to go to coffee with him, and I was like, bitch, I don't want you to wait two years to go to coffee with me. That's bullshit. No. Listen, Liam and I were not, like, close before we had issues, like, it did, it, yes, it took me a very long time to agree to be close to him, and I can acknowledge that, and him and I have talked about that, and, like, it, it took a lot, but you also have to remember, during that period of my life, I was in a big flux transition. I wasn't, I didn't trust anybody. I had a really hard time with community. I had, I was, I was a very different person back then, and when I finally agreed to have coffee with him, it's because I had done several years of repair work on myself before I was willing to, like, let anybody in, and I am in a much, much different place today, like, that is not the person that I am today. I don't let things hold on for a super long time. I, I'm not as scared of, like, addressing it, and with Liam, I needed to see him show up in social settings to see whether I could trust him to, to hang out with him one-on-one. Yeah. That was, and I, and I talked to him about this, like, I had to see you not be a total fucking dickwad and peacock in every social setting for me to even think that you were worth my time for one-on-one, right? Liam was a, Liam is a very different example of how, how much time it took me, because it did. Are you telling me that his peacocking used to be worse? Yes. Oh my god. Yes. It's a good thing I met him when I did. Like, I've, you know, I've, I've known of him, seen him around for five years, right? Longer than that at this point, and we had a really, like, I fucked up, like, hard, right? I think another part of why it took so long, like, yes, we repaired, but, like, I was still carrying a lot of shame about, like, why that, which was the reason why I didn't want to spend a lot of one-on-one time with him, because I was trying to be, like, how does this motherfucker trust me? Even though, um, we made repair, I still was the one that fucked him up. Like, I did that. It wasn't him. He did nothing wrong. I hurt him, right? So there was, like, a very different, um, situation in terms of, like, my own internalized shame, and I had to work on myself for a long time, and I was trying to figure out community, and I was trying to build relationships with people. So, yes, it took me a fuck ton of time to agree to go to coffee with him, and we all know how that fucking turned out for me, right? Yeah. I'm not going to spend, Kameron, I'm not going to spend two years making repair with you. That is not my intention. I think it was just, like, give me a little bit of time to just kind of settle in and, like, feel some, some semblance of normalcy, feel some semblance of, like, balance, and then, you know, one-on-one time being off the table for us is not forever. That is not my intention at all. Um, I don't want to act like we are strangers in a room of people together. Like, that doesn't feel good to me, right? No, not at all. Like, like, I don't, I know that it's going to, I know that it was awkward, right? Like, I ran into you at, um... Jonathan and Megan's? Jonathan and Megan's, right? Like, I know we were there together, still super fresh, right? You and Liam were still, like, super no-contact. Like, fresh no-contact. But that's not you and me, right? That's not, like, it is what it is. It's been, it's been a rough few weeks, right? That doesn't mean that I don't want to know you. It doesn't mean that I want to pretend you're non-existent. It does not mean that I want you to, like, completely go off on the other side of the room for me. Like, that is not, that's not my intention at all. It's just breathing room, right? So, my, I'm not planning on not hanging out with you forever. That's not, that is not where I'm at, okay? Um, that, I don't, I don't know if that helps. It does, yeah. And also, like, literally, like, the next three weeks are like, what the fuck is going on in my life? Because, like, there's just, like, so much happening. My birthday is next week. We've got all kinds of stuff going on, right? So, like, uh, I, so I'm trying to, like, recalibrate, but that, it is not, yours and my relationship exists independent of Liam. It always has, okay? It is, I know we've had some disruption, right, because of, like, the nuances that include Liam, but that does not mean that because you and Liam are no contact that I don't want to talk to you. It doesn't mean that just because there's disruption there that I'm not your friend, right? That I don't want you to have that narrative at all. Um, it just means, like, in the right now, I'm trying to, like, settle in. I think that we both needed some time to be able to have a conversation like this. It's exactly why when you said, hey, can you do a phone call? I'm like, yeah, that actually sounds really nice, because I think that we both have, like, creating a space where we both can kind of talk about where we're at is important. Because, again, I would, if I thought this was going to be forever, that we weren't going to engage, that I would have said no. I would have said, no, I'm good for a bit, you know what I mean? But that's not my, that's not my aim, or my intention, or how I want to show up with you. Yeah. And I appreciate that this, this has helped a lot and, like, just kind of ease some of the, like, anxiety and stuff too. And, like, part of it is, like, feeling like, like, I want so desperately to repair with you and with Liam too. And, like, I just don't know how to do that when I'm not allowed to show up to do that, you know? And, like, I want to honor the boundaries for time and space and stuff. And I just, like, am the, I'm so fucking bad at being patient. And I hate waiting so much. It's the worst. And, like, honestly, like, especially now, like, where I feel like I finally have my fucking mind back a little bit. Like, I, I'm like, I just, I couldn't before I didn't realize how much I didn't have the capacity to be supportive or hold anybody else's emotions or anything like that. And it was, like, this stupidly horrible dichotomy between, like, what I actually had the energy and capacity and reserves for, which was nothing, and the desire that I had to still show up at, like, as the friend that I want to be for people and be supportive and, and, and, like, validating and, like, empathetic and, like, holding space for other people's experiences and emotions. And, like, that just fucked me over so hard because I kept over promising and under delivering. And because, like, like, the, the desire was there, but the capacity wasn't. And I just didn't know that. And, and I couldn't, like, I had no way of being able to see that in, in the moment. And, like, I, yeah. And, like, I can see that now. And I have the energy back. And I have, like, the desire is obviously still there. And now I'm, like, I have the desire and I have the energy and the capacity. And I'm, and I, yeah. And I'm just sitting here twirling my thumbs, like, fuck. And, like, something I, I actually realized, too, and I'll share this with you. I shared it with Liam the other day, like, another kind of insight that I had was in around, I was talking to my mom about this the other day, in, like, how I learned growing up, like, what love looks like. Like, my mom very much is the, like, everyone is welcome. You show up for your family. Like, love is, you know, doing things sometimes you don't want to do, but it's, it's showing up and it's, and it's doing things for other people. And it's being there. And so, like, that is what I learned. And that is how I operate. Like, I show up for people. Like, I, so, like, the, the way that you guys operate is so fucking alien to me in that, like, love is giving me time and space when I ask for it. Like, that is so beyond what I was able to comprehend, especially in that state that, like, I, I felt so lost. Like, like, I already felt. It's so foreign. It's like complete opposite of how you're conditioned. Right. Exactly. And, like, I didn't, I couldn't, I didn't have the capacity to see that there was another perspective or another experience because I was just so stuck in my own, like, this is what I know. This is what's true for me. But, like, I couldn't see that, that, that's not what's true for everybody. Yeah. Yeah. And that makes sense. Like, we, we talked about this, right? Like, this viewers versus viewers thing, right? Like, how it just, it looks so different. And it's trying to, like, show up for me in the way that I feel love and then opposite on the other side, right? Like, how, how do you need love shown to you? And, and sometimes those things are just so in, like, not in alignment with each other that it feels so disruptive, right? Um, and it doesn't mean that it's, I, I understand because of how you were, like, conditioned and raised that anything that's different than that feels like rejection. It feels like abandonment. It feels like you don't want me here, right? When it's like, no, no, no, no. I want you here. I just need a little bit of centeredness, right? Because for me, when I get flooded and I need that separation and I ask for that and I don't get it, you get the worst version of me. Um, and so like, I think that it's, it's learning, it's learning the process of like how, cause I think we, we tend to attract people that are similar to us in the way that we show up. Like you may have dated people in the past that are kind of like that, that are kind of similar to how you operate in that way. And Liam is very different. I'm, I operate, I'm not like Kat. Kat is very much the, I need, I need all of the love and affection in this moment. And Michael can handle that, right? But he also has me who's like, no, get the fuck away from me. Like, please, for the love of God, give me a minute. Right? And so, and he's, he's had to learn how to like recognize those two faces and know that me taking a moment doesn't mean I love him any less. It just means that that's what's going to help me like breathe out of it and, and get to, um, get to a centered space so I can show up better. Yeah. Right. It doesn't mean I don't love him, but you know, it takes some time. Yeah. We've been together for 15 years. Yeah. I think I was talking to Kat for a long time after The Edge and I think she and I have a lot in common in how we process things and like experience the world. And that's why I'm like, this is definitely a NeuroSpicy thing. For sure. And I mean, it's, it's a human thing too. Like it's not just NeuroSpicy. I think it's like conditioning, like how we were raised and family of origin stuff. But I think Kat especially can like, she can help you frame it similar to how, how you think, like your model of thinking. Yeah. You know what I mean? So yeah. Yeah. Um, Leanne says that you're helping tonight. Yeah. Oh, I should. Yeah. I have my phone on do not disturb. I don't know if he's texted me yet. He said he was figuring out like, oh, yep. I have a bunch of messages. Messages. I'm going to go over and help too. And he was just like, Hey, what time are you coming? And I was like, well, I'm going to go to Hatter for a little bit and journal. Cause I need to do that. I haven't journaled this week and I need to sit with some of my other shit. Um, and so he was just like, oh, Cameron will probably be back too. And I was like, okay, cool. I'm on the phone with her right now. Like, no biggie. Um, and I wasn't sure what time you were going. So. Yeah. I didn't know until right now. So when I just looked at my message from him, um, yeah, I've got a bunch of decor and stuff. I'm going to bring over and see what we want to use. And I also, I still need to finish the trophy tonight too. Um, cause I've been slowly working on it. It's been like, I don't know. I'm trying to figure out what exactly I want to do with it. And I have a bunch of ideas, but, um, one, one more thing that I wanted to ask you about, um, is your birthday party. I, I would love to celebrate you and be there if it feels safe and okay for you. I don't want to make it like, I don't want to intrude or make anything uncomfortable. I did already check with Liam and he said he's okay with me being there, but I wanted to check in with you too, because like what you want matters to me, especially. That one's been a hard one for me only because like, I know that you guys are in the no contact space and he is at his house. Yeah. Which is why, which is why I asked him first. Cause if he was going to say no, then I just wouldn't have gone, but he said he's okay with that. So, okay. So what I would like to do is I'd like to check in with him just to make sure that he's in a good light. I want to make sure I understand the landscape of how he would, um, how he would want to operate in that. Cause I want to, it's not that his comfort is more important to me. I just want to be respectful of like his face and also like his, I want to hear it from him. Right. Does that make sense? Yeah. Not because I don't believe you, but just because I want to chat with him. Yeah, no, absolutely. That makes sense. I am, I am comfortable with you being there, especially after this conversation today. Okay. I don't know that had we not had this conversation that I would feel the same. Um, I think it was just still a lot of things were kind of on, not on solid ground, you know what I'm saying? But this feels good to me. Like this conversation feels good to me. So I'll check in with him. Um, right now let's say yes. And then I'll check in with him and just make sure that there's no like part of that landscape that I might not feel good about. And then let you know if that, if anything's different, is that fair? Yeah, that's totally fair. He, yeah, he and I had a part of the conversation we had the other day was around like, like him trying to push his comfort zone limits a little bit so that he wasn't pushing me out of community spaces that are at his house. And so like, he, he asked me not to come to Ryan's lap dance thing on Tuesday. So I'm not going to go to that, which was really disappointing. But also I understand. But he, we were kind of talking about it like, like, I would write like, I think from his perspective, if I understood him correctly, it was like, I'd rather you didn't come to that. I'm okay with you coming to show's birthday thing. Like, I'm okay with you being at the heroes party and still helping with it and everything like more of the like larger group things were like, not so intimate. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I'll check in with him. And I'll, I'll follow up with you. Half of me is still thinking about canceling it. So do not cancel your birthday, you deserve to be celebrated. And it is a opportunity for growth and mindfulness for you to sit with your discomfort in being the center of attention, because people love you and want to celebrate you and the fact that you are a human. My phone, I'm looking at my phone right now, because I have you on speakerphone. And I forgot that the, um, the picture that I put for your like banner, when when you call me is the one of you and I from metamorday with our arms around each other. And you're both of our hands, but Liam's like coming in with his mouth open. And both of us with our hands are like pushing him away. Like, get the fuck out of here. The one on mine is from the one in 10. Stay the spring thing. Oh, the freshman party. Thank you. Fresh friends. I'm like, what is the fucking thing? Yeah, it's super cute. Oh, man. Okay. All right. Well, I'll probably see you in a little bit then. Okay, sounds good. Since I'll be over. I don't know what time I'm gonna check in with him. But I appreciate you initiating the conversation. And I appreciate everything that you shared today. And, like, I feel good about being in a better space. And, and, you know, we'll continue to kind of chat and check in with each other and, and kind of take it from there. Is that? Well, yeah, that sounds really good. Thank you again for being willing to talk with me today. This has actually really, really helped. Good. I'm glad. All right. I will probably see you in a little bit. Okay. Bye. All right. Bye.