Taser

The transcription is a conversation between two individuals discussing the use of tasers in law enforcement. They talk about the history of tasers, their effectiveness, and the need for clear policies and guidelines. They also discuss the importance of transparency and standardization across law enforcement agencies. Welcome to the Cutty Neckbone Zone aka the seniority report. We're making a video today and I'm here with guest Charlie Shaw and Charlie has a podcast called Pure REIT and he can tell you some once we get into our show at the end I'm sure he'll tell you a little bit about it and welcome to the show. Hey what's going on Kev? Not too much man you know we got to do it today. We're gonna talk about some law enforcement stuff folks. Man I thought we were gonna talk about leadership. We are it's gonna ease into that. All right I'll do it but you know what I like talking about the profession that we both retired from. Yeah. And how we can improve upon the profession whether it's leadership looking at different topics such as what we're going to do today. I'm glad that you brought this topic up. It's your show I'm gonna let you introduce it. Well we're talking about tasers in law enforcement because this actually has something to do with management as far as from ground zero all the way up to upper management. Everybody's got a different viewpoint on the use of electronic weapons in law enforcement. So I'm going to start with I just think it's a toy that's been abused and doesn't do anything good for the profession in the long run. In what respect? As far as the origins of it for instance. I mean as you know like every every cutting-edge thing that's ever happened has come out of LA. Yeah you know what would you allow me to talk about the history of how the taser came about? Because you brought up LA. Back in the 80s the taser was introduced to the streets with the LA Police Department. They began to deploy tasers in 1980 as a less than lethal option for subduing suspects because a lot of times they were using batons. What is that thing called? The Billy Jack? Blackjack? They were using those types of things and then shoot first you know. Right. Throwing their weapons and not not employing what we call use of force matrix. No such thing. No such thing. So the introduction mark began of tasers use in civilian law enforcement following his initial deployment in 1970 by Jack Cover. He was a NASA research researcher. The adoption of taser by police departments aimed to reduce the use of firearms and decrease injuries during arrests and confrontations. Over the years the tasers technology has evolved and its use has become more widespread among law enforcement agencies throughout the country. Now when I was at Orange County back in the late 90s early 2000s that was my first introduction to the taser. I saw it when I was in the military but I didn't get to use it when I was when I was when I was in work in the law enforcement then. My first introduction was the taser and that and what's his name worked up there in sector 4 with me. I'll let you know what his name is but I was trained with him. He actually ran for sheriff at one time and lost to Jerry Demings but he was the one that I was introduced to the taser with. Spike. Spike there you go. So you know at that time we were all excited about the taser because we were having a lot of shootings at that time and there was a lot of people laying hands on subjects that probably shouldn't have but I thought at that time that it was a good good use of force and equipment that we could use. What was your introduction to it? Okay and I'm gonna go with I was around doing that segment and this this isn't just to this kind of isn't to pick on where we worked at this what I'm ready to say it was nationwide it just wasn't where we worked but as officers tend to do when they get a new toy they abuse it. I can't I can't argue with you. No no because there were competitions hey how many did you get today how many did you get today because it was remember when it came in it was a three on the use of force matrix right that's that's Charlie what's your name zap in the chest. Right. Okay so that let's talk about what happens after that though because once you get hit with a taser then what's the next thing that happens? You have to do paperwork. Okay no I'm talking about just actual incident before the paperwork. Oh out on the scene? I got two darts in me and what happens then? Well then you deploy medical well the ambulance and they were the ones at the time taking them out here it is we have taken them pull them out of the subject. Right and and then what happens? Get a medical clearance so that you can take them to the jail. Okay and my argument was and I saw it then and it's worse now that you're putting your hands on more people than ever before by using it it's not taking it's not taking anything away because as you know like when somebody hits with a taser and there's a bunch of cops around. Right. They wait for the cycle in and that's exactly what you're not supposed to you're supposed to cuff under power. Are you talking about the cycle of the tasers? I'm talking yeah. Because deploy? Yes. Well if you don't wait until the cycle in you're you're gonna be subject to the same same thing that's subject. That's that's not the way it works though see this is where we agree to disagree. No that's not it's seriously not the way it works because the thing is you're supposed to navigate around there because as you know that whole neuromuscular thing that happens in that five seconds it locks you up. And then go in. But how you're locked up that's when you try to get in trouble but deputies watch and when that when that five seconds up you know what happens then they go. Then they go in. But the person is fine after that after that five seconds. Yeah he's back to normal. He or she is back to normal. Yeah we have been it has been ingrained in us because we've watched too many videos about people flopping around like fish and TV shows where you go zap and and they fall down that we think that's the way it is in real life. Okay. And that that is poor training on the parts of law enforcement. Well I'm glad that you brought that up because before before any training what is implemented I'll just finish it finish it answer the question and that is policy and guidelines. Because I'm because I like to talk about how I improve our you know improve our functioning you know prove upon what we're doing. I think that the if those things are happening I'm not implying that that that's happening across the country or anyone specific agency but there should be a clear use of policy in those agencies. If there isn't then one needs to be implemented or improved upon because I know there hasn't if you use the use of force there's a policy in there. Right. And a lot and and just like with anything else you have to go back and review that policy rewrite it and I would even say this because I want to have transparency with the public. Right. I think that you should bring in an independent review board such as retired officers or professionals in the community to help you write these policies. Okay you hit you hit two hot buttons with me and I can't stand you know enforcement agencies using transparency because you're not transparent with everything because that's not the way it's supposed to work. Some things some things you don't need to know until certain things are over with. Well in what respect? Well well I'm going to go with the other point of that it's like when you make a policy so we're not like the example I gave and once again it's not this was this all over the country because law enforcement agencies are not the same in a lot of ways but they are in other respects. So remember it was we wrote all the policies and it was a three and then people by standards based on the metric board that yeah but it was abused and then it was abused so bad that DOJ had to get involved if you don't if you can remember back that far which is why we had to use force forms and and the scroll of what to do and what not to do. Well my argument is always going to be this. It's always going to be this. You have when you create policy on let's say taser but since we're talking about that whenever you create policy every everything has to be approved upon nothing comes out perfect. Right. So DOJ it's okay for an outside agency to come in and say hey look this is the way we're doing it across the country we would like for our local state and locals to be uniform also. It was desperately needed. So you agree with me that. Yes but but look at why the point is is like an entity like that should not have to step in because it never should have been abused in the first place. Well we come from a big agency. Yeah absolutely. Smaller agencies are not equipped and and a lot of times they don't have the experience that is in their department that a larger agency may have. They may have some way that we we do it like this because that's just the way we do it. They take me about that attitude. Right. And that kind of culture needs to change. So hard. That's a lot of that's a lot of police work right there. Not really. Not really. If you if you allow if you allow other agencies to give you advice on you know hey well not advice recommendation see if the see if these agencies accept the recommendation and then implement it into the system. I don't see where it's hard. I just I find it more stubborn. This is the way we do it in our town and that's just the way it is. When law enforcement should be uniform and it should cater to that that culture of that specific area the specific areas of the country. You know I mean there's different you know people people are different all over. All over and law enforcement will be different all over because of that. Right but if you have a set if you have the standards which I was talking to somebody today hey look if there's no standard create one. A lot of times people don't want to create better standards for their employees, their agency, their community. They're just doing it the way they want to do it because this is the way we always done it. Well just because it was the way you always done it isn't always going to be correct. Yep police hate change. Yes for the most part for the most part yes but once this okay I agree with you a lot a lot of police hate change or a lot of people dislike a lot of a lot of police dislike change. I was a prime candidate that I couldn't stand change. But once you once it's introduced to you and it's I'm going to use the word that you don't like transparent of why watch. It's transparent so why we're doing this and it has to come from the top and filter down. If the top is transparent and why they're why they're making changes to policies and guidelines you can you can all accept that better than you can this is just the way we're doing it. Well yeah that's and that's kind of always you always get that that meeting and this is happening and this is why but I think the whole going back to the origins of Taser like you touched on we touched on like LAPD and all that before. The false narrative with the Taser that I have a problem with is that it lets you it relieves you of going more hands-on with somebody because and it's just the opposite effect. Well go ahead let me go back to 1992-93. Okay. Rodney King. No tasers was involved. Well where there were there were 96. No no there was a taser involved but guess what we don't ever hear about that. See. Hey I did I'll give you a little background on me in a second but but doing that doing that whole list I was a 23 year old kid watching that on TV like everybody else in the world and I don't know if you remember how many times that they Billy clubbed him. Quite a few. Yeah but what I learned later is that well tasers were crude back then. As a matter of fact they look like flashlights. Yeah he was hit with those. He wasn't getting up. So that was getting lit up. Yeah that whole that premise from the start of less hands-on dies with just that argument alone. Just with that incident because you know what was he going to get up and run away? No there was no way. And guess what they all got exonerated. Well I can't argue with you on facts of what happened. And I can't my opinion of them getting exonerated when there's audio video well actually just video at that time. Yeah just a guy on a porch that coincidentally. Right video and the culture of that agency at the time. Which is the model for a lot of the United States. Yes SWAT tasers everything comes out of LA is cutting edge SWAT vehicles. I did open up with everything. Yes. It was invented out of there. Exactly and I'm not. But but okay and for argument's sake they weren't the model. They were the opposite of the model. But they and those were those were officers that and I use that word loosely because I try to be respectful. Those were officers that was operating on their own agenda. Yeah it was a silent times. That's what right. That's what NWA and everything else was after police etc so on. But I only give that example because I did I learned that. I took a electronics class so I got certified in a bunch of electronic stuff. Right. And certain things what I learned from that class. Now everybody picks up different things when they go to class. Like I went with a bunch of corrections officers from like Sumter County or something. And we got certified in inmate extraction shields with the you know. Dude there's there's reasons like in corrections in the courthouse and courtrooms. There's room for electronic restraint devices. Now when we get to the to the side holster or actually being on an individual. Right. I submit to you that tactically. It's not a good weapon to have. No. You don't see those items in inside prison. Right. Or in the local jail. Right. Hands-on. But why on the streets? Well you operating under a different environment. I mean you don't know what the subject. You know what your prisoner should not have on him because he was checked before he went inside your facility. But when you're operating on the streets you don't know what the person that you come in contact with on the streets. Hey look you may think that this person is friendly and they're not. They you don't know what they may have. Right. So why would you type your hands with a object that's really not going to help you? Once again I'm gonna have to. The tape okay since we're talking about use of force and how to go up and down the scale which is what you meant about three. Verbal. Okay. Physical. I'll say somebody's at a four. A four? Weapons? Yeah say somebody's swinging a club at you or whatever. Well a lot of times. It's the judgment of the officer. We're not going to take that away from them. Right. We're gonna give the officer the opportunity. An officer can go straight to his firearm with a club in his hand. But you know you know what happened and I guess this is my biggest argument in pet peeve. Would you agree with that? I think that. The size of an officer? Oh all those factors. All those factors are there. I've seen things where. So why wouldn't you. Hold on. I got I got. I don't want to miss this point. Because you have. I was gonna say female officers but you have male officers that are just as small and he's going up against somebody larger than him. He can't you know he or she can't possibly take on somebody that has a mammoth size over him physically. What would you suggest? I'm not gonna ask you what would you suggest. You can ask me I'll tell you. So let him try to let him try to deploy that device if that don't work and if he feels like his life is in danger then by all means he has to protect himself. So I say that once again the taser is a tool in the toolbox and if I would rather see them try to utilize that tool before firing on someone. I think it's a it's an overrated tool to to train a new generation because one thing I noticed before I left is a lot of the older people they wouldn't pull that thing out not even though it is somebody. I know I know and new guys that wouldn't carry their taser. Yeah and I will get one of the worst things to happen with the existence of a taser a lot of things that you can see and I we can pull up whatever you want on video a lot of things that could have been resolved with spray. People don't spray anymore. Spraying would alleviate a lot of everything you just talked about. Size factors when when you look at going to tasers your size and all the things that we were taught growing up like you know goodness well if you didn't if you were fast enough somebody somebody was 85 years old you're not going to handle them the same way somebody else 25. Those are all factors that the newer generation or the newer training they don't harp on as much and the taser should be one of those after the spray kind of thing because you know what all the things I've had my career yeah because you spray and you move and then you wait and you wait and you can observe and if something breaks off then you have both your hands free and it's easier to throw down that spray than worry about the taser and where the darts are and if they struck and all the things that we're not mentioning about the taser because it is a pain in the ass thing besides all the aftermath of it and it's just I'm not saying that I agree with you it's a tool in the belt but it's an extremely overrated tool. Right. The only time I've seen the only time it's not as far as electronic devices is like I said it made distraction shields having to go in and and and have a shield yeah and what I used I used to go to court and testify when you had to wear the electronic restraints for trial. Have you seen the belly taser? Yeah all that been hit with all that. We used to use it I think we stopped I think the marshal service and I'm not quoting them but I think the last time I used it was early on like in 06, 07 and we got away from that. Yeah but restraint wise it's it's more user-friendly than to be out on the street and worrying about if did both darts hit or what the effect is because when I was in that class like I said I was with some Sumter County boys and they for shits and giggles they would hit each other with cattle prods up there so you know what I've watched one guy. That's a different world up there. They put it on me I flopped around like a fish and they hit this one guy he walked right through it he was just nothing but leather and cigarettes. Well from a management point of view how do you think that they can improve because it's not going away no it's not going away yeah I think that there's three points that that should be addressed. People get trained on on their less than lethal devices biannual. Right. Usually in April and October. I think that there they need to enhance the train first when they're doing the certification and recertification. I think that there should be more discussion on why why why are you using it and give have these conversations like we're doing. Right. And also now that you really have to justify even if you didn't use it and you use another less than lethal I think that conversation should come up also. Well and that's the thing that. Find out why aren't people hearing. It turned into when I was telling you like the DOJ got involved with that basically people misusing misusing it and the use of force complaints that that bellowed in pretty much it's kind of like I don't know it's just it's just that a lot of it turned into an investigation that's the best way to put it that use of force form for taser look like an investigation and to determine whether or not you did anything wrong and it it was it was the whole form yeah okay that's an investigation perfect example of what we're talking about that's the upper management definition of investigation. Boom. Don't boom too fast. That's that's a cop's plane right there gathering information. Well you gotta collect data. Well I mean when you deploy that even when you deploy the well why how much data you need everything is like there's the confetti there's the time stamp and this and that it's like when you see all the questions in that form that I know you remember it's an investigation. Well once again if you if you filling out that form you collect in the very data that you agreed to just a few minutes ago about when we do certifications and recertifications find out why are people using it I mean this is both times you're collecting data is it because you think that is just too much oversight? Oh definitely because it's not and it's not anything that the DOJ is wanting it's what you're yes you're what your agency wants your agency is investigating you based on you using something that they issued you. Your listeners are going to think that I'm not officer friendly. Oh this is this has got nothing this has got nothing to do with officer friendly or not this is I just think that if it's not written down it never happened. I've always felt that way. So and if something happened I've always been been been under the thought process of you need to document. Yeah that's when that goes with the officer and management should be also you know trying to make sure things are documented because you know as well as I do it may not be a big deal today yeah but that subject that you that you apprehended but it's going to make an issue of it later. But let's not forget and this is this is one of my we'll do another show on this of course this is up management up here management down here it's always documented there's an initial report there's a use of force report there's a charging affidavit it's documented out the ass. This little form that you have over here where you're like. Supplemental reports you heard of those? Yeah. Okay then that's a supplemental. That's that's that's a supplemental report for somebody who needs to do it but this is when you look at a use of force form and the last ones I remember it was definitely definitely look like a PSD form. And you can clean it up however you want. Yeah it's called it's called you're going to internal affairs because we don't like everything that we're seeing on this paper right here because their questions have nothing to do with the incident. You and I would have been bumping heads every day. But we would have still went out to look. Hell yeah. Like are you sure about this? But yeah just but that's but those are things that we're talking about. Because it is I thought it was overkill I think that and the reason I say that is because I've used I've used my spray to spray somebody with a knife. I don't know if it's old thinking or not but it was more effective to spray and move off center and let the guy drop the knife and fall to the ground and ask me for water. Well then. Nobody got a damn knife bro. I ain't spraying. I ain't spraying. No. But once again it was circumstantial. Mental health issues and he's like 65 years old. Okay you don't give that to me initially. But exactly and because everything's different all the time. Yeah and that's a that's the luxury of our well not luxury but that's part of our job is that every day is different. We did I guess where I was going with that story is when I when I you know Baker acting a guy. But when I did my use of force form. Right. There's nobody in over management to ask me about it. They asked me to use your taser and I said no. I never heard anything from it. I did it myself. The space in the form for spray a narrative about three sentences long. Never heard from it again. Why? Spray is so common. You can recover well from the spray. Maybe that's the reason why. Yeah so what's that say about the taser? So why are you way more interested in what happens with the taser than the spray when the results were positive in both cases? Well why the investigation? Why don't you ask me about my spray and about the date and where I got it. Yeah it's just that cops follow hot buttons. The taser was a hot button and it was as usual overkill. And that's all I'm saying. I'm not saying don't ever use the taser. I would even if even if I wanted to back in the day I could never say that because you have to think about your safety when you use a taser. There have been people that have seriously gotten hurt because they bought into that taser falls down and then not pay attention and get hurt. Right, right, right. Because it's not you know. So what is your what's your feel on the public perception of this? I think the public. Do we owe them, do we owe the community explanation on all this? Should agencies, once again I know you don't like the word transparency, you know give education campaigns on why officers are using certain devices to apprehend subjects in the community? Yeah see I don't I don't really subscribe to that because I I think that if you're talking in-house a lot of these incidents that I'm referring to or to have in my mind right now that haven't told you they could have been resolved with spray. It was just a it the taser to me when that came along what it did was it's the trainers basically inadvertently said we don't really need you to talk to people and you don't have to touch these people kind of thing you know. I'm gonna agree with you on that because I remember those conversations. Yeah and that's and that took away from verbal judgment. Right thank you and it's kind of it was just a way to remove youngsters from if you had the conversation skills maybe you wouldn't need the taser. You've never had the taser anybody have you? Only had the spray. Yeah. I don't know I don't recall any I don't recall any time I had it. I carried a taser for a while. Yeah did you ever you ever recall a time when you thought about using your taser? Yes. Because I I really. But the person the person actually realized that that wasn't in his best interest was to resist. Right and a lot because a lot of people when you go to public perception a lot of people also one of the very few cases I can say I was in a pursuit one time over something stupid but I was still chasing after somebody and the guy was running down an alley and he reached in his bag he had a bag he reached in his bag and I stopped and I drew down on him because I don't know he's pulling out a bag. That wasn't tasers situation. No no he he threw it he threw it on the roof and later on we caught him and you know afterwards you talk about shit you know it's like oh man this and that and he goes I thought you were going to tase me. I go I don't have a taser bro and he goes oh I'm like yeah you're doing some serious shit man I don't know what you're reaching for that's that's not a taser moment and and his expression changed and he understood stuff and I was like you know it's just what it is like you going to the taser if you got time to talk to somebody you got time to spray somebody. Yeah you're right. But you know just like with with the spray sometimes a taser doesn't work on people and vice versa and you you have to get back to the basics and that is if that's afforded to you. So I'm gonna go with sometimes that the part that we take off the table sometimes you can punch somebody in the face. It is a thing. It is on the matrix. You can you can defend yourself if it comes to that. You can twist somebody, direct them to the ground however you want to spin it. You can punch somebody in the face and knock them cold after it warrants it but you have to be able to justify what you do. And that is correct. Yeah and it's like people go I can't I can't believe the cop punched somebody. It's like that's that false narrative that they feed to the public. Yeah a cop can punch somebody and based on the circumstances sometimes a cop can punch somebody first. So yes it all depends on the circumstances. It has to be articulated. Which is every action has to be articulated. Which is what officers in general can't do anymore. They can't justify why they did it. I'm not going to say they can't. I'm not going to say they can't. More often than not. Well let's say everything that we see is kind of like. Well what's being seen is being seen more often than what it used to be seen. Right. Because everybody has a camera these days. Yeah but it turns into your your actions need to be more than I was scared. Oh of course. Yeah and that's not what you're seeing these days. It's like there are like three incidents that come to mind that will be in the next show because we're going to wrap up here in a minute. But it was like why'd you do this? He had a gun. That's not a crime. That's not a crime. Especially in this. Especially in Florida. Yeah especially right down this state at this time. You can have a gun. Have you have you ever knocked on a door and somebody answered that had a gun? Well we're going to talk about that in the next thing. We will. And folks thanks for tuning in. And once again this isn't for. This isn't legal mumbo-jumbo and we're not bashing agencies or whatever. We're just like. I call it getting. I think one of the purposes of me making these videos now and creating the Cutty Neckbone Zone is because people don't talk anymore. There's always there's always some single asshole on his own show talking about his own point of view and don't anybody have anybody counter balance anything that they're saying. And this is we have we disagree on probably a lot of things in life. Things we agree on. But that is why I appreciate Charlie Shaw coming in and you can go ahead and plug your show before we go because I think a lot of people will be listening to this. Well again I'm Charlie Shaw. I've worked with Kevin early in my career with the Marsh County Sheriff's Office. I left and went to US Marshals where I've recently retired such as same as Kevin. I also have a podcast. My podcast is called Peer-to-Read. Read mean striving for excellence. It's a great word striving for excellence. And what I talk about on my what I talk about on my show is striving for excellence and bettering yourself on. And it's basically talking about putting yourself in the best position as far as leadership, life, activities that you that you have personally. Just try striving to be a better person overall. I would love for any all you to come by and listen to my show. Matter of fact we share this the show and this this show will be on my on my podcast as well. Thank you for coming in today. I totally appreciate it. I'm ready for the next interview. Hey man thanks for letting me ram on. I got a lot more. I got a lot of more. All right thanks man. I think we called it. See that's like therapy shit right there for me. Oh it's therapy for me also. Oh I love this shit man. So the next show is about now see if you can see if you can fire. We're making a video today and I'm here with guest Charlie Shaw and Charlie has a podcast called Pure Ares. I can send it to you. Yes I'll see if you can send it to me where I can. Don't erase it though. No no I'm not doing any of that right now. I'm just going to go ahead and what I should I email it to you or just I can. Email it to me or yeah email it to me and then I'll see if I can load it onto my show. Send it to my page and see if I can load it into my pictures. Now we do this one. I'm happy to see it. So the next show is on what? It didn't work out that well. Let me see. We can talk about the just training kind of training from the academy and maybe how we grew up in there in the the virtual world. I went to the academy in 93. I don't know when you went. I went in 03. Come on let me get back out of this I guess. What time is it? It's almost 3 o'clock. I think my time is up. Oh no no I cut to 3.30. My time is up to 3.30. Okay how is this? Here's the video. We're making a video today and I'm here with you. Okay. Let me save this. I know this show. I'm still learning. Export. Come on I messed up my time and shit.