Episode 5_OOO_Vf

The podcast features Mike Lichtenfeld and Russell van den Berg, who transitioned from change management to founding Out-of-Office Development, a leadership and team coaching company inspired by nature and adventure. They focus on leadership and team development outside the office to foster growth and self-awareness. Their shared leadership model emphasizes individual self-leadership, team foundation, and competency building. The approach aims to break hierarchical barriers, enhance cooperation, and improve team engagement, motivation, and innovation. They work with teams at various stages, from high-performing to dysfunctional, emphasizing long-term investment and follow-ups for sustained change. Hi, everyone, and welcome to Change Taps, the podcast for navigating your change management career. I am Judith Duesing, and today we are here with Mike Lichtenfeld and Russell van den Berg, two millennial men who both started as change practitioners and then diverged from their change management career path and started out-of-office development, which is a leadership and team coaching company with nature as a guiding inspiration and adventure as its core approach. Mike and Russell. Good morning. Good morning. Two Dutchies here. Me too. Very proud Dutchies. Really nice to have you on the show and also to still be connected 10 years later. Just a little bit of background for the Lichteners. The three of us all started 10 years ago at the same Big Four, specializing in change management. And since then, I have moved around a couple of times. I came back to the Big Four after two years. Mike, you have started there and then went somewhere else but still worked in change management and leadership development. And you are the one, Russell, who stayed all the way through. I've been waiting for you to come back, actually. Oh. We can talk more about it for you later when we talk about inspiration. Russell also worked in HR and then also learning and development. And then both of you decided to take the step to leave the corporate career path and start out-of-office development. So I would love to start with why did you feel that you needed to take that step and how has the journey been so far? Yeah, so first of all, thanks for having us. Good to see you and good to be here. Yeah, like you said, 10 years ago, we've met each other, starting in the same kind of same role in the same company. And now, 10 years later, it seems different. I've been in corporate world about 10 years. I saw different environments, first from a consulting point of view, then made the step towards the client side. I really liked different environments that I saw along the way. But after a while, I realized that I was missing the speed and the freedom to build something from scratch. Plus, I also found out very quickly, actually, that being in an office all day, every day, wasn't just for me. So before even that, earlier in my career, I started a short period of time in the military. And ever since, I've been fascinated by team and leadership development. So that's what I tried to implement when I was doing change management. But that was really my passion. So after a while, I thought this is, I think, what I want to do most, especially in combination with nature, also inspired by the military. So from that, I made the move to do something else. But I couldn't have done it without being in change management first, and so a lot of environments because of that. OK. Thanks. Yeah, cool. Thanks for being here. While I took place on this table, I was also thinking about the 10 years back. And it's funny that you both play a buddy role for me when we started at the big four consulting firm 10 years ago. So it brought us back again. That's really cool. So really quickly, a buddy role, as you hear Wessel talk about, is an informal peer-level support person that's assigned to a new joiner, helps them settle and understand the company, and also connects them with other colleagues and resources. And so that was my role when Wessel joined Deloitte. And then I moved to the States. That role was then taken over by Mike. So that's why both me and Mike have played that buddy role for Wessel. I think for me, it was nice to share first that I've always been fascinated by people, by groups, by individuals. And that also was for me the decision to study psychology. But I really felt, after finishing my study of psychology, before I really want to work with individuals or groups, I think it will really enhance my impact if I know more about organizations and how an actual business works. So that, for me, was really a trigger to start my career in management consulting. Very happy with that. But I also felt, after some years, I think I observed myself that my interest was much more developing towards people, development of clients I've worked with, the teams I've worked with. And I found that more and more important in my career. And that, for me, was also triggering to do more courses in coaching. I'm an internal trainer at the company. When I did those coaching courses, I felt I wanted to do more and more with that. And I think a couple of years ago, that triggered Mike and me, et cetera, to work on a really nice side job to build a really cool outdoor program for coaching weekend, personal development. And that just gave so much energy that we felt that seed is growing and growing. And so far, because that was part of your question as well, how has the journey been so far? For me, the journey so far has been very motivating. Feeling of building something out of ourselves, it's so energetic, while at the same time, it all cliches about entrepreneurship after such a long career in the corporate world are also all true. And more about that later, I think. Yeah, nice, okay. And can you tell us both a little bit more about what it is that out-of-office development does? Yeah, sure. From the moment I started working in teams, like we all do, I strongly believe that with a good leader and a strong team, you can take on pretty much everything. So no matter what challenges you are facing, I believe if you have the right team with the right leader, you can take it on. So that's also what we believe in with out-of-office is actually all about leadership and team development. We believe that real growth happens when you step outside of the familiar and explore the unknown. And we mean that quite literally because we try not to do it in an office. That's why we call it out-of-office. We take people outdoors into new environments where they can see things from a fresh perspective. And that's what we try to do. So we can take leaders outside, we can take teams outside, and really have some inspiration or some challenges over there that you can challenge yourself and face yourself. And at out-of-office, we develop what we call the shared leadership model. And the idea is simple but really powerful because we believe that leadership starts with you as an individual because that's where our foundation is. And you can only lead others if you know how to lead yourself. So that means really knowing yourself, taking responsibility, and acting from your values. And what we see is that step we skip, not always, but many times. And from there, we move on to building the team foundation. So who am I, can I add to a team? And from there, who we are as a team, what are our values, what are our strengths, what are our weaknesses? We have a psychological safe environment, for example. What are our goals and our visions? So really building towards a strong team from there. And then the first step, that is the outer circle, so to say, knowing what we are and who we are, what competencies and skills do we need to get there. From that model, we have been building and also are still building based on the needs, some interventions, some programs that we can do with the teams. And every question might be different, but the solutions kind of is not always the same, but the basis, of course, needs to be there. Yeah, and then the basis. As a strong team, with strong people, knowing themselves. Yeah, I think what's really, what I'm really proud of is that what we see is going outdoors, so living our name, that that really does something to break those more hierarchical or safe to be someone in your role, but break it a little bit open. And from there, you can really look towards yourself, open up to your colleagues, and really get to a new level of cooperation. That's really, yeah, motivated me to do this work. And what we see with that, also based on research and outcomes of the programs, is that there's higher engagement and motivation in teams that people call in less sick, so lower obsidian, and also more innovation. So there are just a few examples of what you can get out of it. And also people really just like to be in that team, and that's, I think, most important because you go to your work every day, and you need to like it, and also need to like the work of the people you work with, so why not invest in each other? You spend so much time at work, it better be nice. Yeah, that's true. You spend most time at work. Are the teams that come to you, are they teams that are already working well, or is it mostly teams that are dysfunctional? Both, actually. Yeah. Yeah, what we generally see, and I think they're also great that we have a change management background, I think what we've learned in change management is a client will always set a problem indication in a way that you feel like, okay, I could start on this superficial level immediately, but you always know there's something below the surface, and I think that's the same with teams. So many times you get the question, can you do something on collaboration, or we just need to spend some time together, and when you ask a bit the question behind the question, you always see that a bit more is needed, and you need to break open something. And from that change management point of view, I think the one-offs, like a training of four hours, doesn't make the change. It's like a long-term investment from a leader, from a team, of building towards something that you want to reach, and that can be already a high-performance team, or a team that is not functioning at all. Right, and are there any follow-ups after? Did you do a program, and then you thought you had some positive results, like how do you measure that, and are you still in touch with the teams, or the leaders of those teams to do the follow-up for? Yeah, on the one hand, we would like to work with the standard survey that the company already has, so what you see in a bigger organization, they usually have a pool survey, or part of the engagement measurement, we will always try to pick into that. We have our own survey as well, specifically for the elements that we are working on with the team, so we try to integrate that into the survey that the company already has. That sort of measurement, but on a more quality level, we really believe coaching, and division could be on team level, but also on an individual level. That is key to make a change really stick in the team. Yeah. That we really should prevent that it's just a nice experience, and we go back into the office environment like we've done it before. Yeah, and I think next to that, next to the survey, we also try to talk to people, like not just the leader of the team, the formal leader, but also the individuals that are in the team, not all of them, but just to get a sense of what's happening in this team, and what's maybe the question behind the question, so that we really get a sense of what's going on, and that we move into a program with them with some more information already. And it's called shared leadership, because we believe that not only the formal leader is the one who should lead the team, but that everybody can have or might have a role, and also a responsibility to move the team further. And by knowing your strengths, and sharing that with the team, you can actually use each other's strengths instead of focus on the weaknesses. And you already mentioned there are some skills in change management, in your change management experience that you applied. What are some other, like when you think about the standard deliverables, stakeholder analysis, change impact assessment, stakeholder engagement, or more like the emotional intelligence skills, facilitation, like what are some skills that you've built up over the last 10 years that you feel that you've really taken into out-of-office development? I think a lot, first of all, seeing the bigger picture, because I believe that leadership development and team development is an important part of change management. You can change processes, you can change structures, but without changing the people, nothing happening. So from the change management, I really took the ability to quickly understand what's really going on. I think that's what I just tried to explain as well. For example, the culture in the team and in the organization, the stakeholders, who has the formal or maybe not formal decision-making, what are the hidden norms? And also with that, I think storytelling and psychological safety, but also active listening is what we learn as consultants, of course, to influence what you can influence. So really fast understanding of the situation, I think is what I get out of it. And also what you just said, like the long-term measurement as part of a bigger program, it's something that we have done a lot of times, of course. So it's not- I like it. Yeah, well, I try to avoid those big slides, those big slide bits, to be honest, but we need to make sure that it sticks. And I think that's all what we learned at change management as well, with change management. Yeah, I think for me, the key thing that I took away from change management is that I think I got really attentive about the structure or the bigger system that the team is in, or sometimes the leader is in. I think what you see many times in change management, you get a strong eye or sharp eye on what are unhandy reinforcing mechanisms, for example. And that could be on the whole system level within the organization, but you also see that within the team. Yeah, yeah. Are some of those experiences because you felt you couldn't necessarily get to the core or like it starts with the leader, but you weren't able to influence, is that also part of the reason that you wanted to start this? Yeah, very much. I think what I've seen in many of the assignments that I've done, that most of the energy of the project, the transformation we've been in, but also I think the energy of most of the people in the organization goes towards processes, building new policies to have even more control, building presentations, all to have insights together and have a feeling of being in control. And I really saw that it was super unconventional to just have an honest conversation about them. We're in this transformation and we feel we have serious challenges and maybe we have hard times to get to sleep at night but we don't speak about it. I think having really genuine, honest human conversations, that is what kind of sparked me to do more with it. And for me, I think it's similar but different in a way. So after consulting, I moved to the other side, to the client side. I moved more towards leadership and team development compared to the broader change management. And from that roles, I saw that it allowed me to help people more directly and have an impact more directly. And then I also might work with my personal passion which is help people in teams to develop, connect or simply have a special time together, preferably using nature or focusing on wellbeing as a whole. I got the chance to work in the sports industry as well which is close to my heart. And I love that roles and environment but after years in the corporate world, I realized that it wasn't just for me. So I started to look for other opportunities and I think that's what we call growth and you take all the experiences that you have with you, you learn from them, you get to know what you want but maybe even more important, what you don't want. Connecting those dots, I think for myself, led us to where we are right now. And then it's even better and nicer to do that with someone you started your career with 10 years ago. Your buddy. And also Cedric, of course, who also started at that big firm and is now also our third partner. Yeah, which I have to ask, did the analyst bootcamp that we went on, did that have any early impact to coming to this? Kind of like for me, the coming full circle. I thought it was a really great experience. Okay, very quickly, the analyst bootcamp that we're referencing here, it was a couple of days in nature where we all as young professionals went to a bootcamp for team building activities and it was myself, Mike Vessel and also Cedric that we are talking about here who were all in that same team. Okay, back to the conversation now. You mean having that experience together? Yeah, yeah and also, I mean, this was early, maybe you already had it, I didn't have any such experience to go with your teams outside of nature and I really appreciated it. Like I still really cherish those memories and I'm looking back in 10 years and I don't think I've ever done something like that again with any company that I've been at. Yeah, I think it really helps because I think that's something that's really great that you work with people you don't know yet with experience like that and you're already referring to it and that's what we believe in. Just a short amount of time together, somewhere else in nature, doing some stuff that you don't do in the office really connects the people and that's now 10 years later, we still talk about it and we also still talk about it between each other because that's also something that happened during that weekend. I'm not sure if you're laughing and I'm not sure if you remember this, but. Feeling on time? It's to me feeling on time, which was to me at that moment of time really important. That's why I was here at 10 a.m. this morning, guys, because I was like, I don't want to have this dude like harassing me. Yeah, it's just like something that happened between Cedric and me at that weekend and we didn't know each other that well, of course, but we were having a good night until very late, but we had an agreement with all of us that we were present at 7 a.m. And a lot of us were waiting for 15 minutes and I'm sorry, Cedric, it's coming back again, for you to wait. Everybody just knew that and was able to continue, but I really wanted to point it out because like I said already, for me, I had a bit of background in the military and time is time and agreement is agreement, so I said something about it and I don't know why. I was also not that fresh, but I think it got us close together and if I believe Cedric from that moment, he got a kind of respect, a mutual respect, which really helped us further. So it's just one quick moment a lot of years ago and with such a big impact. And now, I have to say, now I changed a little bit as well and I can be two minutes too late as well, so we all grow as human beings, but yeah, that experience is something that we really believe in and that's what we try to do as well with Out of Office. Nice, it's funny indeed that how daring to speak up can really enhance a relationship as well. And I hope it doesn't have that impact on you that I need to be there on time because Mike is there. This stayed with me forever also because I know you were in the military and I know you also said at one time in a meeting with all the change management practitioners that I just don't understand why people get me on time. It's not a bad habit, but I'm happy to hear that you've became a little bit more flexible. Okay, so wanting to talk a little bit about career transitioning, we did some market research when I started this podcast and about 25% of the 50 people that filled out a survey were interested in alternative career paths. If there is a key message or advice that you could give to people that are thinking about that stuff, like what would it be? It's funny, it took me a while as well to make this decision, so I've always believed a bit more on a deeper level for myself. I've always had the trust or the belief that in the end, the decision that I will make will benefit each other. What I do see now is that a bit more broadening my experiences or even maybe even deepening, like we are now in a specific field of change management, I think, with what we do. But not in the traditional change management programs. But I think if I look forward now in 10, 15 years, I don't know where we are, but I'm very sure that all experiences that we do now will, in the end, lead to me or us being even better professionals. Looking forward, you can't always predict it, but looking backwards, you can see how it will all add up. I think I totally agree with that and also next to that, sounds like a cliche, but I also think that cliches are there for a reason. It's really follow your gut and in the end, life is way too short to spend doing something you don't enjoy and ask yourself, what do I want to get out of life and how does my work fit into that? And if you're stuck or don't know how to do that, then of course, we can help you with that. That's for sure, that's the next step, guys. I think within the Western world, we sometimes tend to forget how to listen to your feeling instead of your mind with everything going around. Some more practical advice is something, try on an hour, do something next to your work that you think is in line with something that you want and you don't have to switch your entire career already, but just try it maybe a few hours a week or a month even and talk to people who are doing something that you'd like to do and with that, you can also understand if it's something that you really want. For example, for myself, for the last two years, I've been volunteering in a sauna, as a sessions in saunas, it's called Outboots and that experience really helped me to make the decision to step away from corporate life as an employee. It's sometimes those side adventures that gives you the clarity that you need and it doesn't feel that heavy that you say goodbye to your job, but just try it in a smaller way. I know that you guys started doing the, I think it was the personal leadership development weekend twice a year, but you both still were working, I think, full time. So that was already lingering, maybe for two or three years and so you're saying that having the extra job at the sauna where you did something completely different was like, okay, no, this is it. Like, I just gotta go for it? Yeah, and I think the organizing and facilitating the personal leadership weekend with the three of us, first of all, gave me the insight that I like to work more often at the Nestle and at CESEC because it gave us so much energy and it was like really natural collaboration in that weekend and also, luckily, we got really good feedback from the participants so that also, for me, was an approval that this is something that we can do more often. So that was the first, it was also building some trust that we are able to do what we'd like to do. And listening to your end user feedback, very change management. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, it's change management and it's also can be believing yourself in your skills and in each other and that you can do it together. And then the other side event, which was voluntary, really gave me so much energy to solve people getting into the sauna really stressed and after just 15 minutes, get out more relaxed with a smile and also there, yes, got the feedback like this is something that you maybe can do more often and for me, everything came together. So that's why we decided, and for myself decided, yes, I want to do more of this, let's do it full time. Nice, and are you still in the voluntary class at the moment? Yeah, on Mondays, Monday evenings. Still remember that moment where you were not experienced in guiding sauna sessions and that you saw a vacancy and we talked about it and it's so funny then that what is it now, a year later or something? You feel super comfortable in guiding those sessions and it was great, I've been there as well. My guiding the session and it was indeed so funny, like I have sessions with him for professional organizations, for teams and then I saw him in that environment and it's just great that with one decision, very intuitively you felt you want to do that and you make it happen and you get positive feedback because it's really close to your heart. I really believe in that. Yeah, and also good that you just go for it. I think it's good for the listeners to hear that too. I think it's the same, like, let's start a new podcast. I'm talking to other practitioners and they're like, oh, I want to start a podcast but everything needs to be perfect and perfect and I'm like, no, just get started. And don't make it too big. Yeah, right. And if it's not what you thought it was, then you can try something else. Thinking through any struggles with making the move, what are some things, I know you referenced it in the beginning all the things that come with entrepreneurship, they're all true, but what was the most challenging or something that you, maybe something you didn't anticipate? So something less cliche. Hmm, maybe a positive thing first. Sure. If I may. Yeah, yeah. Because what I find super interesting is that I found out that I do really enjoy the business development side of being an entrepreneur and the networking. And I think that is because I'm genuinely interested in people's or organization's problems. It goes very naturally to ask those questions, to meet new people and really think about how can we help them. So that's super nice to have that element now in the work as an entrepreneur. But what was much harder or different than I anticipated before is that you literally have to solve everything. So I remember, I think it was one of the first weeks actually that, okay, we have an opportunity to get mail addresses or templates in PowerPoint, for example, or we got stuck in IT help and we had no access for two days. And then you really feel like, okay, I missed the days in the corporate world where it was just one phone call away and within two hours, I think I got a laptop delivered at my home, a new Will application installed on it and that's definitely different. But it also gives a lot of opportunities. And I'm happy in my career that I think we did it now because after maybe getting to have experience for 20, 25 years in your career, I think it might become harder to be in that position as well, to really find out everything yourself from scratch. Oh, so you're saying the boomers of today. It doesn't have to be a generation. The more you get used to it, there are people who can solve your problems and I think, yeah, some days we are kind of maybe very early stage interns. Next to that, like you just said in the previous question, for many people, it needs to be perfect to take another step. And what I didn't fully anticipate with that was having to be okay with not knowing and figuring out everything yourself, like what you just said, and having an employer you can call HR or your manager when you hit a wall. So as an entrepreneur, the safety net, it's the safety net that is done. And you're the one who must find the answers and sometimes even figure out what the real question or issue is in the first place. And then we can call each other, but we don't know both of us. So just figuring it out. But luckily, we have each other as a safety net within out of office and also have a great safety net at home. So it's being, again, a cliche, uncomfortable with the uncomfortable in the end. And then it will solve, it will be solved. You have to solve it. But maybe it takes two days instead of two hours by having an email address or a laptop, just as a small example. You strike me as the person though who is comfortable with the uncomfortable. Or are you saying, maybe like in the core, like the bigger problems, yes, but maybe the smaller, like tiny, the entrepreneurial things, it's hard. First of all, being uncomfortable within a comfortable environment is different. Because if something is uncomfortable and you know that everything around that is good, and you get your monthly salary, you can call your manager, and you go out of, you go back home from your job and tomorrow is a new day. But this is something that's, yeah, it's happening seven days a week, 24 hours a day, and all the structure around it is also something that you need to build yourself. So then it's real uncomfortable in the end. But yeah, I must say, it's getting, it's going way better compared to a year ago already. So I will take that in mind when I change the page, identify that again, I will think about your comment. Yeah. Yeah. All right, so thinking about our own generation, I think we're all millennials here, specifically for change managers that are millennials. What are some advice that you would give them? I had an episode before this with another millennial. She took a sabbatical for three and four months. And for her, she felt she needed to take that to pause because otherwise she would have paused. And I mean, she's been working for seven years, and she feels she needs to achieve and to go. And I'm like, you already did so much. So the sabbatical helps her to see that. But it is often said about millennials that we are emotional, we don't know what we want, and we get stuck. Do you resonate with any of that? Yeah, I think as a millennial, I also can identify myself sometimes with the unrest that they say about Gen Z. But I also can see myself a bit in more of the boomer side where it's more like you have to work hard and a bit of hierarchy is also effective, I feel, or I see. For me, that's not always been easy, but my advice would be you have to really keep trying to see the bigger picture for yourself. And not every project or client or the day at your work is the best of your life. I think it's great to take regular, maybe on a quarterly level, look back for yourself. What have you learned and what were actually thankful development opportunities that you got? And I think that will keep you going on maybe sometimes tougher periods or tougher areas of the project. And on the other side, yeah, if you reflect on it for another two, three quarters in a row and you keep on having negative ideas on what you're doing, I definitely see it's the moment to take initiative and change something. But I think that the unrest should be more seen on a longer time than on a weekly basis for our generation and the generations after. So loyalty, I think, is a very interesting topic there. In what way? Sometimes loyalty is great because you need to give kind of a change. You need to give it time as well. And you can only see the impact of your efforts or your decisions after a while. It doesn't get overnight. But I think sometimes our generation might have the idea, oh, if I do something, it should be great immediately. And it should be a nine at least. But if you ask other people, then yeah, it won't be like that. Yeah, we have tricks for ourselves. I think within our generation, and we also look to other people around us, and we think that they, like I said, they have it better. But of course, you don't see everything. And coming back to your question, I also think, and that's also something that what we started with is really take the time to get to know your strengths, your passions, but also your weaknesses. So really know yourself. And with that, I really mean really take the time. I'm a huge fan of taking a sabbatical. But of course, I understand that that's not for everyone, and that's not an option. But it's great to maybe a longer period of time or just a day, step out of your busy schedule, get into nature, slow down a bit. Because we're also part of nature ourselves, and we tend to forget that. And maybe some answers are already there, but with all the bugs going on around us and all the challenges that we are facing, we just don't see it clear. And for me, that really helps. I have some examples that what I did, like for example, taking a sabbatical, but also going on a holiday without taking your phone. So I only have a phone for emergencies without, with just a few phone numbers and the things that you need on travel, but don't have all the apps on it, for example. For example, last January, I spent two weeks at the monks in Thailand. For me, it was also a great experience. And yeah, it's just two weeks. So everybody has two weeks of holiday. So just spend your time different then. And then I think some clarity will come, but you need to be open for it in the first place. By understanding yourself and knowing yourself, I think you can be stronger towards other people on what you can bring, but also what you cannot bring. And also, you know, feel better in that sense. Yeah. Nice. For the, I also heard you talk about the psychologically safe environment. I'm just wondering what your, like how you see this, because I do think it's good to know your weaknesses, but if you're not in an environment where you can share that, to me it's almost, I don't know how to say it nicely, but useless, because I've been in an environment where I know what my weaknesses are, and then I share them, and then they're being used against you. And that is so true here, and that's what we see more often that that happens. So for us, having a safe environment, which is safe to share your doubts and your feelings is a key factor to move on as a team. And also to move on as individuals, because most individuals won't thrive in environments like that. And at one point, you take the decision to leave, or the company just doesn't grow further. Yeah, like you said, that's something that needs to be created. Otherwise, people are not able to form. I think psychological safety is really a fundament to get potential out of your colleagues. And also as a manager, if you don't see the value out of it, yeah, your team could perform, but it won't be at a maximum potential. I know you are asking the question, but you shared an example that you have in environments like that. How is that for you? How was that for you? It was not great at all, and I left because of it. I was just working more and more hours to try to make up for things that I knew that I wasn't gonna be good at. This was also, I have three little ones. They were very little back then. Yeah, I had to start prioritizing them over anything else. I have to say, when I became a mom the first time, the company, they were very supportive, and there was someone who was like, you need to now be very strict about your boundaries and how you're gonna go about your work and what you can and can't do. And I was very thankful for her. And so I did that in a lot of my projects and with my colleagues, and it was all respected. And so I think that example helped me to see that it's possible to do it that way. Then I moved to a different company where I gave the same boundaries and the same requirements or preconditions, and they were completely just obliterated. And so I knew that I don't have to put up with this, but it definitely had impact. Like, I took two or three months to just not do anything because I was so dumb. Yeah, well, thanks for sharing. And with that, I think that's an example of how not having an environment like that can have impact on individuals. Right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think the problem in that environment, too, was that they knew a lot, that a lot of employees had this feeling that the problem was not being, trying to be solved at the core, where it came from. And you see that those individual cases many times only got seen after a really long time. And then I really hope that, and maybe I trust in that as well, to keep on going in the work, or there will be one day where even that leader will feel like, okay, this is not the way to treat the people that work for me, or that work in my company. And I think also, on a broader world perspective, I think we are getting there more and more, where more and more people are having that conviction, that psychological safety and treating people nicely is a must for success. Yeah, when I went to a leadership development course for the company that I work at now, I asked how, because they were like, how would you describe a leader? And it was about empathy, and about listening, and collaborating. And I was pleasantly surprised to hear that. But I also asked, like, how does it differ from 10 years ago? And the coaches that were there that's been, yeah, educating for a very long time, they said, before it was about project managing, hierarchy, like, being dominant, having a say, to, yeah, just more the foster side. So I thought that was a really nice thing to see, how that has changed over time. Yeah, what we also see at companies is that, back in the days, if you talk about five, maybe 10 years ago, the only way to grow and to climb the ladder was to lead a team. But that's not for everyone, because if you are an expert in the field, and or a specialist, and really good in the content, it's not necessarily that you are able to lead a team as a people manager. So what we see now, they're different tracks. So you can grow, and you can make promotions, but also having that specialist role, so really into the content. And the other part is really that people leader side of things, that you focus on the teams. And with that distinction, I think companies who are on that distinction and have that track, that they're better teams, and also more safe environments, because the leader is really creating that, because that leader is able to do that. So that for me is an eye opener, that also big companies make that shift. Okay, thinking about change practitioners that are just starting out in the field. So 10 years back from when we started, what is some advice that you have for them? Ooh, yeah, time flies. Um, if I could give one piece of advice to someone just starting, it would be this, work hard in the first place, but also enjoy the ride, and to stay open to whatever comes your way. Don't be too harsh for yourself, and I think what you said, the younger generations are maybe better at that already than we are. Learn from your mistakes, trust your gut as much as your head, and don't let yourself be fooled by appearances and always keep things into perspective, because there are way more important things in life than work. Yeah. That's also so hard in the beginning of your career. It is very hard. I completely agree on that, but it's so hard as well. I remember myself in the first years, work was just super important to show myself and to get a kind of approval of my capabilities and to get the confidence that I'm worth something in the business world. I think it's really a combination, yeah, kind of, what is it, kid mindset in a candy shop? Just make sure you enrich yourself with many experiences. Sometimes allow yourself to, yeah, to even motivate yourself in harder projects or maybe projects that are not in your immediate sweet spot, but make sure that they're balanced with things you super much enjoy, and what I said earlier, reflect regularly. That is sometimes hard, because I believe in the Western world, we really are great in working with our head, but we're not so great or we don't get teached how can you actually listen a bit better to your intuition, and I think that is something in parallel as becoming more mature as a person. Make sure you, yeah, you get to know yourself a bit better in that, so you can make decisions easier and feel more comfortable in what is actually important for you and what works. Yeah, and I think all three of us wish that we saw this earlier in our career as well, so yeah, it's hard, like you said, but I think that the earlier you do it, the more you get towards the professional you're meant to be by just learning from your good and bad experiences. Yeah, and I think, I do think there is value in having bad experiences too, but even when you were saying about the not so good experiences, try to work through it, right? It can be, either you continue, or like I did, like I just left, I was like, I don't have to deal with this, right? But there have also been times where I didn't have those guts yet, like I just worked through it, but I learned different things in different ways, like how do I deal with someone like this, for example, so. Yeah, it all, like, we are talking about it, and it didn't, maybe it seems easy, but it's not easy at all, and of course, we also have challenges along the ride, both of us, which shaped us as human beings as we are right now, and also that supported us making decisions that we maybe shouldn't have done if everything was just okay. Right. And also what I find funny is, I have been approaching some people that really with that first job choices, and what you generally see is people really focus on what is the job that I want to perform, or to execute, that I think as soon as you start working, you see there's so much more involved to make the job nice and enjoyable or not. Right. So, for example, it's your colleagues. Yeah. The actual workload. Yeah. You have a really high level of hierarchy, and then sometimes it doesn't matter that much what your actual activities are. Yeah. So it's also good for yourself to take time to explore all those elements that are crucial for you to enjoy or not enjoy a working week. Yeah. Yeah, and see which elements really matter to you. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I have two more questions. I've gone through most of them, but also happy, of course, for you to add anything else. Thinking through something that enables you in your career progression, or an example role model. For me, actually, many people come to mind. I've been lucky to work with some very senior partners at the consulting firm. I don't know, they just gave me so much confidence and ability to take on more responsibility with enough safety. So I definitely cherish, yeah, those people that have put the effort in the early career phase for me. Yeah. But also really nice peers. So at the consulting firm, we set up Intervision, where it was super valuable with the peers to just fully open up with the struggles we had, and to just hear that other people are struggling with the same things. Yeah. That was super valuable. But also friends, my girlfriend, I'm just super happy with people around me that have a bit of a coaching mentality, to not just project their own perspectives, but really are able to have a conversation that then helps me, and of course, the other way around as well. Right. Definitely has been super valuable. Yeah. Yeah, definitely people in the first place, and there have been a lot along the way, both into corporate world and corporate years, but also now in out-of-office, and also, of course, like I said, in private life. And I'm not gonna share any names to take the risk that I forget someone, but next to the people, I think, is also then I learn by trial and error. And every step taught me something that I could have learned from a book. And if I look at it from a more theoretical lens, then it also includes seeking, and we talked about already, the stretch assignments in and outside of work, building a diverse support network around you with people who are close to you, but also more further away, who are maybe doing something really different than you, because you can learn from them from a different angle instead of having that tunnel vision, so to say, and intentionally stepping out into unfamiliar environments. So, next to the people, which are number one, those also have shaped me and have been some enablers. Nice. It was nice to share, as well, that when we started as companions or three partners together, all activities that we developed for our clients have been more in the field of development, leadership development. We will always do them with each other. Them first, you mean, or? Yeah. Okay, nice. I will facilitate something that I developed with the two of them, and in the other direction, as well. I think that has really been nice in our collaboration, that we are very transparent about concerns or wishes or perspectives we have, and I think that is super nice that we can now experience in collaboration and that means so much. Yeah, I can resonate with that. Also, for the podcast, for this idea, the first person that I interviewed, she was a huge example for me, just like the way that she was leading and just very respectful of everyone's different working styles. She also was open and honest and would be critical, and so she's like the safe environment. I think that you three are for each other to dust things out. Yeah. Like sending a logo, sending a, I don't know, like this is what the podcast is about, or hey, can you listen to this thing that I just recorded? How do I sound? And yeah, it's really valuable. Yeah, yeah, and we share a common vision. We share a common purpose, and we have the same passion, so if you provide feedback to each other, which sometimes is needed to grow, it's not personal. It's just to add to that common mission and vision, so by understanding why you are here as a team or as a company, it's easier to also provide that feedback because you want to grow together, so having that safe environment to do that by understanding why you are doing that really makes it easier. I had one other question that I think you guys already answered, so I'm not gonna ask it. No, no, no, but is there anything else that you would like to add? No, yes, sometimes things can be uncomfortable, and I also have been in a crisis, for example, a few years ago, and I don't wish anyone to feel like that, but I wish that some insight that you get from a crisis, so for everyone as well, and by accepting in a situation where you're in, from that moment you can grow. It took me, I think, at least six months by accepting it, so I was stuck for six months before able to grow anyway, so in the end, after a while, afterwards, not in that moment of time, not at all, but afterwards, that are the moments that you grow from the most, so yeah, it can be really hard, it can be challenging, but also know that if you're stuck right now and looking for some other opportunities or don't know how to get there, it will come, and accept it, and be open to something that comes your way, and yeah, be the change that you want to be, I would say. Very nice, yeah, so have faith as well, that is what we'll call it. Yeah, indeed, the word courage was in my mind, and courage, you don't need to dare to make 180 degrees change immediately or quit your job immediately, but I think experimenting with new activities, things that got your interest, I think that takes some courage already. I think that those are crucial steps to transition into a career or I think even in other areas of your life to be more happy, or feel that you're in the right place. Yeah, okay, awesome. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for being with me, and first in men as well, Michelle, so we're very happy to have a little bit more diversity. We're having a great hour. Okay, so the three key takeaways that I have from this episode is that when you're looking forward in your career, and you're like, where am I going to end up? You cannot always predict it, but looking backwards, as Mike and Wesley both said, all the experience that they've had added up to the entrepreneurship world that they are now entering, and it is actually, in this case, for change management in something that is very change management related and almost like a niche field, leadership and team development. Also, when you're thinking about doing something else, so you want to explore different paths that are adjacent to change management or something completely different, it doesn't need to be perfect. It doesn't need to be perfect or 100%. Just get started, and then the last one I think is really important because when you are transitioning from one specific career field into another, it's always good to think about the transferable skills that you have, and some of those that Mike and Wesley mentioned were always seeing the bigger picture as a change manager and getting to the real problem, right? Clients or program managers can tell you one thing, and then when you actually talk to the people who are undergoing the change or some of the stakeholders that have to work with it, you get to the real problem. I really enjoyed this conversation. I hope you did as well, and I want to ask you for a favor. If you listened to this episode or listened to any of my other episodes, please recommend it to a friend. That's one, and then the second one is if you would like my podcast on wherever you listen to your podcast or you can leave a review, I would really, really, really appreciate it. All right, that's it for now. Talk to you soon.